MONSTER MUSKET/JEZAIL FOR IDENTIFICATION

[BANDOOK]

HI RICK I HAVE PUT THE MOROCCON MUSKET ON ETHNIC FORUM FOR YOUR KIND INFORMATION,CHEERS

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ...
The lock is off a Brown Bess...

see http://www.ima-usa.com/original-brit...rked-lock.html

I would suggest that the marks on the lock plate are the remnants of the Nepali mark.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[BANDOOK]

SUKHRAN IBHRAHIIM,
GOOD OBSERVATION,SO ITS GOOD TO KNOW THAT NOW THE BARREL AS
WELL AS LOCK ARE ORIGINAL,CHEERS FOR THAT MAKES THIS BEAST A BIT INTERESTING FIND.

[BANDOOK]

KUBUR HAVE COPIED YOUR PICTURE,PLEASE OBSERVE THE GUY ON RIGHT HAND SIDE ,HE HAS QUIET A SIMILAR JEZAIL WITH THE THICK HUGE BARREL??WHAT DO YOU THINK?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

KUBUR HAVE COPIED YOUR PICTURE,PLEASE OBSERVE THE GUY ON RIGHT HAND SIDE ,HE HAS QUIET A SIMILAR JEZAIL WITH THE THICK HUGE BARREL??WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Salaams Bandook ~ This is indeed a stunning piece of artwork and I note even the TEE shaped gun tool (Eslabone) to the immediate right of the red ink circle...I was reading again the article about the British retreat from the Orchard where the entire organisation was badly mauled mainly by Afghan long guns which could outfire range wise the Brown Besses of the British.

The lock on your Gun is most certainly one of the Brown Bess locks and in reading about the history of that weapon I recall that many Besses went to India and a lot became so badly rotted away that the only thing to do was to strip a lot down for spares. The problem with your Gun is deciding when this may have been done as the woodwork looks good but new...and it is not beyond many workshops to rejig the trigger and lock using spares these days...The Afghan workshop can reproduce an almost entirely home made Martini Henry including the barrel and they have loads of spare parts from British Weapons procured from the British. In this regard I agree with the previous post by Mr Oliver Pinchot. In fact one workshop not 100 yards from here is continually making 303 or Martini or other old rifle Stocks and Butts... These chaps are Indian and Pakistani and they can just as easily make such curved Butts ..It is what they have done since they were children and Up The Khyber they are expert at it ...


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[BANDOOK]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Bandook ~ This is indeed a stunning piece of artwork and I note even the TEE shaped gun tool (Eslabone) to the immediate right of the red ink circle...I was reading again the article about the British retreat from the Orchard where the entire organisation was badly mauled mainly by Afghan long guns which could outfire range wise the Brown Besses of the British.

The lock on your Gun is most certainly one of the Brown Bess locks and in reading about the history of that weapon I recall that many Besses went to India and a lot became so badly rotted away that the only thing to do was to strip a lot down for spares. The problem with your Gun is deciding when this may have been done as the woodwork looks good but new...and it is not beyond many workshops to rejig the trigger and lock using spares these days...The Afghan workshop can reproduce an almost entirely home made Martini Henry including the barrel and they have loads of spare parts from British Weapons procured from the British. In this regard I agree with the previous post by Mr Oliver Pinchot. In fact one workshop not 100 yards from here is continually making 303 or Martini or other old rifle Stocks and Butts... These chaps are Indian and Pakistani and they can just as easily make such curved Butts ..It is what they have done since they were children and Up The Khyber they are expert at it ...


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

CHEERS IBRAHIIM,CHEERS

[kahnjar1]

Salaams Ibrahiim, The TEE shaped tool you refer to is a flint knapping hammer, used for shaping flints to fit the jaws on the cock.
Stu

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Bandook ~ This is indeed a stunning piece of artwork and I note even the TEE shaped gun tool (Eslabone) to the immediate right of the red ink circle...I was reading again the article about the British retreat from the Orchard where the entire organisation was badly mauled mainly by Afghan long guns which could outfire range wise the Brown Besses of the British.

The lock on your Gun is most certainly one of the Brown Bess locks and in reading about the history of that weapon I recall that many Besses went to India and a lot became so badly rotted away that the only thing to do was to strip a lot down for spares. The problem with your Gun is deciding when this may have been done as the woodwork looks good but new...and it is not beyond many workshops to rejig the trigger and lock using spares these days...The Afghan workshop can reproduce an almost entirely home made Martini Henry including the barrel and they have loads of spare parts from British Weapons procured from the British. In this regard I agree with the previous post by Mr Oliver Pinchot. In fact one workshop not 100 yards from here is continually making 303 or Martini or other old rifle Stocks and Butts... These chaps are Indian and Pakistani and they can just as easily make such curved Butts ..It is what they have done since they were children and Up The Khyber they are expert at it ...


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[BANDOOK]

THANKS STU FOR THE VALUABLE INFORMATION ,CHEERS
I BOUGHT THIS GUN FOR ITS UNIQUE SHAPE,DIMENSIONS AND WEIGHT,ITS VERY UNIQUE IN ITS OWN WAY
HAPPY FOR ALL THE POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE COMMENTS ,IT ADDS TO MY KNOWLDGE
REGARDS RAJESH

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Salaams Ibrahiim, The TEE shaped tool you refer to is a flint knapping hammer, used for shaping flints to fit the jaws on the cock.
Stu

Salaams Khanjar1, Yes indeed ...This handy tool also appears in Oman and is the same tee shape comprising hammer head spike and screwdriver. The one at reference below has a pricker device as well.

It derives from the Spanish/Portuguese item described by Thomas del Mar at an old auction 2 years ago on~

http://www.thomasdelmar.com/Catalogu...3/page005.html as

Quote"A SPANISH COMBINATION TOOL (ESLABÓN) SIGNED CLEMENE D YSLA EN ESPINOSA, 18TH CENTURYwith moulded shank, pierced at the base, with screw driver terminal (one small chip), the head signed and with knapping and hammer terminals, complete with its pricker (a contemporary repair)
9.3cm; 3 5/8in high

For a discussion of Spanish firearms accessories see J. Lavin 1965, pp. 212-213." Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I would suggest that the marks on the lock plate are the remnants of the Nepali mark.
:

I think the dodgy crown stamp over a 2 does not resemble the Nepali Brown bess lock in any way shape or form. {Looking on 22 inch monitor at time 400% enlagment.}

Old Afganistan NWF Brown bess lock re. used seems more likely...

[Oliver Pinchot]

Gentlemen,

The easiest way to determine the age of the stock is to loosed the screws
that hold the lock, remove it and consider the aperture which holds it. Generally speaking, if the wood is very fresh, shows recent chisel and gouge marks and is unstained (there will be powder, grease and other stains as well as some degree of rubbing if it has seen much use) it probably is not very old. Neither the stock nor the brass mounts show much wear, and as everyone agrees, the barrel is clearly older.

Age is, however, relative. The question is, was this weapon made for use, or for tourist consumption. Flint and percussion weapons were used in a variety of locales well into the 20th century, in fact the Afghans used them against the Soviets when necessary as recently as a quarter-century ago.

[BANDOOK]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Gentlemen,

The easiest way to determine the age of the stock is to loosed the screws
that hold the lock, remove it and consider the aperture which holds it. Generally speaking, if the wood is very fresh, shows recent chisel and gouge marks and is unstained (there will be powder, grease and other stains as well as some degree of rubbing if it has seen much use) it probably is not very old. Neither the stock nor the brass mounts show much wear, and as everyone agrees, the barrel is clearly older.

Age is, however, relative. The question is, was this weapon made for use, or for tourist consumption. Flint and percussion weapons were used in a variety of locales well into the 20th century, in fact the Afghans used them against the Soviets when necessary as recently as a quarter-century ago.

Thanks oliver for the information,cheers

[spiral]

Very interesting guys,I have evidence of ethnic Brown bess use in the last 10 years. {During Nepals civil war.} But is that relevant?

The point {I thought} was rather more about monster jezail fort guns in use? As per the gun featured? I enjoy thread veer onto other subjects, {AKA any flintlock or black powder using guns, elsewhere...} But perhaps such veers should be signposted or at least an acknowledgment that random statements made about 20th century use are not neccasarily relevant to Afghani/Indian. Pakistani oe Baluchistan wall guns... {Not to even mention the Ottaman empire! }

spiral

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by spiral

Very interesting guys,I have evidence of ethnic Brown bess use in the last 10 years. {During Nepals civil war.} But is that relevant?

The point {I thought} was rather more about monster jezail fort guns in use? As per the gun featured? I enjoy thread veer onto other subjects, {AKA any flintlock or black powder using guns, elsewhere...} But perhaps such veers should be signposted or at least an acknowledgment that random statements made about 20th century use are not neccasarily relevant to Afghani/Indian. Pakistani oe Baluchistan wall guns... {Not to even mention the Ottaman empire! }

spiral

There was no intention to "veer" the thread on the Sindi, simply to point out that the use of this TYPE of weapon is/has been used up to the modern day......
Stu

[spiral]

No problem Stu, I like thread veer!

But I would never argue flintlocks weren't in use recently....

Just wall guns...

Not very good pics, I have better somewhere, but here some Maoist rebel militia in Nepal about 2004, with Flintlocks.

They run the country now.... {probably not the featured girls though...}

spiral

[kahnjar1]

Getting back to wall guns..........I would rather doubt their use from WALLS in this day of laser guided bombs! Not for one moment suggesting that they are not being used, but just not to defend a walled village/town.

RAJESH......you need to post a pic of the 6ft 5" Torador you have in your collection....or open a new thread featuring it.

A well known U S auction site had a 7ft Torador listed recently......

Stu

[ariel]

No matter what, you are ready to shoot yourself some elephants:-)

[BANDOOK]

A SIMILAR BARREL LIKE THE ONE I HAVE ,THIS SOLD ON INVALUABLE,PICTURES I HAVE ADDED,SAME TIGER TYPE /KIND TIPPUS FAV.THE ONE HERE IS ON A TORADOR.
WHAT DO U THINK??????