Katars with protrusion

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Teodor, but I do not mean to imply my standards should be followed by everyone. Though I admit to being a very serious student of arms, for me it is about learning, and the text I write is typically the result of the research I do. It is how I learn, and I enjoy sharing what I find...by the same token, often I have misconstrued or misunderstood a thing and I look forward to the corrections..again learning...as I learn from the responses as well.

Without dialogue or words, there can be no interchange or result is what I am trying to say. Simply sharing pictures is fun, but not necessarily helpful to those of us hoping to develop an understanding of the arms being shared.
Even a few words with a picture offers a sense of courtesy even if not particularly detailed.

In many years even before computers, when someone asked for illustrations or copies of something, I would not send them these things simply stuffed in an envelope, but would add a note or few words concerning the subject.
It is well known that in these 'modern' times, we are losing conversational skills and basic courtesies in interaction with the impersonalities of texts etc. I guess I just am old fashioned and miss that touch.

[trajan]

Jens,

bohmans picture some items in groups---auction lots 93, 94, and 95 are in that picture with the kutch exaample being 94 and the one i pictured.

thank you for your information--i appreciated it

Jim:

Imagine a museum or collection of art works and sculptures with pieces displayed without notation. To admire a wonderful work and when wondering who it was by, and when, and to be told it doesn't matter, its just a beautiful piece. Art collectors, dealers, and museums typically work toward not only labeling, classifying and recording their holdings, and to their credit usually try to effect accuracy.

i dont have to imagine that at all....my area of expertise is late 1st century roman sestertii--if you ever get to the museo national in Rome--you will find just that--a whole room of busts in a famous museum with no labels or anything just beauty..a scholar like i will be able to identify them.... but the average visitor will see only beauty.

[trajan]

but i do understand your point.

and as to the value of a simple picture --well it started this discussion on a thread that had languished since march...and now jens has shared enlightening information on this type of katar.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by trajan

but i do understand your point.

and as to the value of a simple picture --well it started this discussion on a thread that had languished since march...and now jens has shared enlightening information on this type of katar.

Again, well said, and indeed the immortal cliché' "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" certainly applies. To many the simple beauty of a well crafted and beautifully decorated weapon needs little explanation, and this speaks to them.
To a historian the beauty is of course notable, but pales in comparison to the historical significance of the piece. For me, my favorites have often been worn, patinated and sometimes damaged old arms which held so much history in their countenance....and to me were far more beautiful then the lavishly crafted arms of higher end collections.

As you have noted, the discussion has brought forward interest in these katars...which is really what is important.....and thank you for sharing your photos. It has been interesting as well to see different angles in the appreciation of these weapons.....and as I mentioned....I enjoy learning.
I did not know of the museums displaying works without identification, and that is also intriguing.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

I think we can conclude, that there are many different collectors on this forum, with different wishes to knowledge about their collection.
When this is said, I would also add that Jim, over many years, have attributed to a lot of the knowledge compiled here, and that he has used an enormous lot of time to research the different items, so the members of the forum can learn more about their collections.
I am sure Jim would like some responce to his posts, writen after hours of research - as the answers Jim writes are not pulled out of the sleeve, they are researched, from books, notes and the net.
Dont think a question is silly to ask - ask it, and I am sure you will get an answer.
Jens

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so very much Jens for the kind words. It does seem (as once again, I have learned), there are certainly differences in the goals of individuals as we collect and often study these arms.

For me long ago, it became most important to study these weapons to learn their history, and indeed I spent often immeasurable time investigating, and gathering as much information as possible to learn all I could. By including this in admittedly long and detailed posts, I learned and wanted to share the information here, not only to benefit the archived material but to encourage the input and supported rebuttal of others This way not only those who participated would learn and revise material, but the huge volume of readers here would as well .

Having said that, I would very much like to return to this most interesting katar form and continue the valuable look into them. I think we have resolved that there are many avenues of perception in our way of looking at arms, and I look forward to seeing more entries, unconditionally

Thank you again !
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes I agree with Jim that it is time to discuss the katars again.
The attached one is different from the others shown, as there are only two cross bars, and they are not as slim/thin as the ones shown before.
The attached katar was owned by Maharao Bakhtawar Singh of Ulwar r. 1791-1815.
The frace 'owned by' must be taken with a grain of salt, as it can mean that it came from Ulwar, but it can also mean that it was a gift from somewhere else. So more reaseach is needed to know for sure.