Katars with protrusion

trajan · 14th May 2015, 05:21 AM

no idea as to history or origin. i merely posted the pic as jens asked for other examples with protrusions.

as to the mystery of the L,

I cataloged my katars by letter.

Jim McDougall · 14th May 2015, 06:15 AM

Hi Trajan,
Thank you again for responding, with pictures! Interesting system using letters to 'catalog' (?) these weapons. I have often tried to imagine how it is possible to collect weapons without ever trying to learn more on their origin or age, but clearly these methods exist.
Nice exemplars, but how unfortunate to see them regarded without history or dimension.
I'm just sayin'

Jim

trajan · 14th May 2015, 01:55 PM

Your quest for knowledge is admirable jim

but some people can collect for beauty and mere enjoyment.

i do research some items when i have time. If a true expert chimes in becasue of a picture that would be great.

all i have on this is a link to a recent auction of a nearly identical piece without scabbard from bonhams.

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22748/lot/94/

where it is described as kutch 19th century...not much information there either--sorry.

trajan · 14th May 2015, 02:35 PM

and since this is a thread about katars with protrusions--it would be interesting to know if jens or anyone has any additional information...as i do not.

trajan · 14th May 2015, 02:53 PM

the only information i could add is that the only other 2 katar i have seen with projections both had 4 bars -- and long narrow blades but were both double bladed.

Jens Nordlunde · 14th May 2015, 04:51 PM

Hi Trajan,
Thanks for showing your katar.
I dont understand the Bonham link, not your fault, they show three katars - but they are from different places.
The one in the middle is a so called Garsoe katar, and is said to be from Sind maybe Kutch. The two other katars are not from there, they are from South India or maybe from Deccan - more likely South India.

The attached is small, but very sturdy, and have a number of cross bars. Victoria & Albert Museum has one like it (a bit different in the middle of the blade), but it is quite plain, with no gold decoration at all.

I have not researched them yet, but to my oppinion they are from Rajasthan and 18th century - if they are not tourist pieces that is.
Most of them have slim, but very sturdy blades with deep fullers, but you can also see them with broader blades.

Jens

Jim McDougall · 14th May 2015, 06:23 PM

Well noted Trajan...these are of course aesthetically beautiful pieces.
However, as we have tried to convince museums and much of the public at large, these weapons are often far more than simply just that, but often imbued deeply with cultural significance and history.
Jens is probably one of the most notable scholars on these Indian arms I have ever known, and has spent much of his lifetime researching these kinds of details and bringing their history into a wonderful dimension of their own reflecting their place in that perspective.

Imagine a museum or collection of art works and sculptures with pieces displayed without notation. To admire a wonderful work and when wondering who it was by, and when, and to be told it doesn't matter, its just a beautiful piece. Art collectors, dealers, and museums typically work toward not only labeling, classifying and recording their holdings, and to their credit usually try to effect accuracy.

The values of items, especially antiques, depend virtually entirely on authenticity, history, condition and accurate descriptions, otherwise people would just buy reproductions which look just as beautiful.

I hope you can see what I mean, and I do appreciate what you are saying.
While many collectors are indeed more attuned to the aesthetics and appearance, the larger number (particularly here as seen in the context of discussions) are concerned with a degree of detail.
I guess as an amateur historian I get passionate about that

so please pardon my exuberance.

All best regards,
Jim

14th May 2015, 04:51 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Trajan, Thanks for showing your katar. I dont understand the Bonham link, not your fault, they show three katars - but they are from different places. The one in the middle is a so called Garsoe katar, and is said to be from Sind maybe Kutch. The two other katars are not from there, they are from South India or maybe from Deccan - more likely South India. The attached is small, but very sturdy, and have a number of cross bars. Victoria & Albert Museum has one like it (a bit different in the middle of the blade), but it is quite plain, with no gold decoration at all. I have not researched them yet, but to my oppinion they are from Rajasthan and 18th century - if they are not tourist pieces that is. Most of them have slim, but very sturdy blades with deep fullers, but you can also see them with broader blades. Jens Attached Images

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14th May 2015, 05:21 AM	#1
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	no idea as to history or origin. i merely posted the pic as jens asked for other examples with protrusions. as to the mystery of the L, I cataloged my katars by letter.

14th May 2015, 06:15 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Trajan, Thank you again for responding, with pictures! Interesting system using letters to 'catalog' (?) these weapons. I have often tried to imagine how it is possible to collect weapons without ever trying to learn more on their origin or age, but clearly these methods exist. Nice exemplars, but how unfortunate to see them regarded without history or dimension. I'm just sayin' Jim

14th May 2015, 01:55 PM	#3
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	Your quest for knowledge is admirable jim but some people can collect for beauty and mere enjoyment. i do research some items when i have time. If a true expert chimes in becasue of a picture that would be great. all i have on this is a link to a recent auction of a nearly identical piece without scabbard from bonhams. http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22748/lot/94/ where it is described as kutch 19th century...not much information there either--sorry.

14th May 2015, 02:35 PM	#4
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	and since this is a thread about katars with protrusions--it would be interesting to know if jens or anyone has any additional information...as i do not.

14th May 2015, 02:53 PM	#5
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	the only information i could add is that the only other 2 katar i have seen with projections both had 4 bars -- and long narrow blades but were both double bladed.

14th May 2015, 06:23 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Well noted Trajan...these are of course aesthetically beautiful pieces. However, as we have tried to convince museums and much of the public at large, these weapons are often far more than simply just that, but often imbued deeply with cultural significance and history. Jens is probably one of the most notable scholars on these Indian arms I have ever known, and has spent much of his lifetime researching these kinds of details and bringing their history into a wonderful dimension of their own reflecting their place in that perspective. Imagine a museum or collection of art works and sculptures with pieces displayed without notation. To admire a wonderful work and when wondering who it was by, and when, and to be told it doesn't matter, its just a beautiful piece. Art collectors, dealers, and museums typically work toward not only labeling, classifying and recording their holdings, and to their credit usually try to effect accuracy. The values of items, especially antiques, depend virtually entirely on authenticity, history, condition and accurate descriptions, otherwise people would just buy reproductions which look just as beautiful. I hope you can see what I mean, and I do appreciate what you are saying. While many collectors are indeed more attuned to the aesthetics and appearance, the larger number (particularly here as seen in the context of discussions) are concerned with a degree of detail. I guess as an amateur historian I get passionate about that so please pardon my exuberance. All best regards, Jim