Cavalry sabre with a parabolic blade

fernando · 6th January 2014, 07:35 PM

Thanks for your comment Sirupate; and thanks for your extensive lines, Jim.
Far away from me to contradict your precious observations, but let me dare telling what i think this sword is not ... or apparently is not.
I have seen the grip before being restored; only the leather cover and wiring were added. Not objecting that the original hilt was a different one, this makes it more remote.
I wouldn't say that the blade was a 1796 one; this one lacks the sharp lines of its back, the hatchet point, the heavy weight look and all, having a more legere (thinner) and roundish appearance. I know that the overbending of a standard blade tends to somehow distort its lines, but still; the 1796 weighs well over 2 pounds and this one weighs less than 1 1/2 pounds.
Also i wouldn't call it a prototype ... at least a 'one and only' prototype; the guy i got it from had another example, with precisely the same curvature, although with a narrower blade. I would rather go for the swagger version, as you also well suggest.
And to finish with my is not catharsis, agreeing with you in absolute on what concerns British and Portuguese weapons having followed a paralel path, i think that, in this specific case, this is local work.
On the other hand, i find the term flanking very suggesting; confessing i never heard of it, i will look for its correspondence in Portuguese cavalry formation.
Thank you.

Jim McDougall · 6th January 2014, 10:42 PM

Good observations Nando, and what I was noting was a remote similarity in the fuller, at least what I can see of it, and not that it was actually a M1796 blade.
Excellent approach which I think is always prudent in examining an item, observing exactly what that item is 'not', using a rational scope of similar possibilities and process of elimination.

I know that you are of course extremely well familiar with both British and Portuguese cavalry swords (in fact much I have learned on these parallels has been from you). I agree that this is likely to be local work, particularly that you have more than one example to corroborate the idea. In the case of prototypes, it is not uncommon to have more than one of a unique style or form but what is noted would be considered rather 'not of an established or regularly seen pattern'.
What I was thinking of was the number of 'prototypes' in terms of the British swords on this early period, i.e. the yataghan blade example, a number of blades on M1796 officers sabres with yelman, and the shamshir type parabolic blade but with pronounced 'pipeback' rib etc.

The 'flank' companies were (at least in British battle order) units for the infantry regiments, which is why it is so interesting to see the use of these sabres.

I think we are pretty much on the same page, and this is likely more the 'swagger' situation during this time of flamboyant military fashion .

Richard G · 7th January 2014, 12:45 PM

I've always known these as bandsmen's swords.
Regards
Richard

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2014, 06:18 PM

Bandsmens swords? Now that is really interesting Richard! Can you please say more on what military etc. do you mean British or Portuguese? Can you please note what references might have this?

Its not that I am doubting this, but most of the band swords I have seen are of course the brass hilted short swords listed in the Robson books for British army swords. Some of these do have short sabre blades but certainly not these long ad dramatically curved blades.

As an aside pertaining to these dramatically parabolic blades, another instance of these are the examples made in America by the Virginia Manufactory of arms around 1808. These sabres had a slotted stirrup type hilt with a long deeply curved blade (40"). I often wondered why in the world these were so long and incredibly curved, but in retrospect I am thinking about the 'swagger' factor we have noted here. The state of Virginia is known for rather being its own 'country' in those early days, and the officers of their cavalry were known for flamboyance and 'swagger', one of them was of course 'Lighthorse Harry' Lee, father of Robert E. Lee.
In the Civil War, these sabres were apparently still in use or drawn out of stores, and the blades considerably shortened, presumably to render them more usable in combat.

fernando · 7th January 2014, 08:34 PM

Bandsmen swords ? I am getting more and more distant from where i started with this sword query

I mean, flanking sword was already an enigma (for me) but then, i am far from being a connoisseur. Naturaly knowing the basic meaning of the term 'flank' i searched for 'flankers' into the military environment. I didn't go further from flanking being a way of either defending the flanks of an infantry formation or atacking it, either by footmen or cavalry. I was not lucky to find any writings on swords made specifically for such maneuvers; neither i discern the difference between a 'basic' cavalry sword and a flanker's one. Still i am not closed to that ... and Sirupate must know what he is talking about.
Now, a bandsmen sword; the only examples i found on the Net have nothing (at all) to do with this sword i am posting. But a Net search is what it is; i am prepared for whatever comes from a further explanation, in this case from Richard G ... if not from whoever decides to enlighten me/us

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2014, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Bandsmen swords ? I am getting more and more distant from where i started with this sword query

I mean, flanking sword was already an enigma (for me) but then, i am far from being a connoisseur. Naturaly knowing the basic meaning of the term 'flank' i searched for 'flankers' into the military environment. I didn't go further from flanking being a way of either defending the flanks of an infantry formation or atacking it, either by footmen or cavalry. I was not lucky to find any writings on swords made specifically for such maneuvers; neither i discern the difference between a 'basic' cavalry sword and a flanker's one. Still i am not closed to that ... and Sirupate must know what he is talking about.
Now, a bandsmen sword; the only examples i found on the Net have nothing (at all) to do with this sword i am posting. But a Net search is what it is; i am prepared for whatever comes from a further explanation, in this case from Richard G ... if not from whoever decides to enlighten me/us

I agree Nando, that cryptic note is baffling!! Pulleeeze Richard can you tell us any more?

Norman McCormick · 7th January 2014, 08:58 PM

Hi Fernando,
Do a search for 1803 Flank Officers sword and see images. When I saw your sword the blade profile reminded me of some of the more 'curved' varieties of this pattern of British sword.
My Regards,
Norman.

7th January 2014, 06:18 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Bandsmens swords? Now that is really interesting Richard! Can you please say more on what military etc. do you mean British or Portuguese? Can you please note what references might have this? Its not that I am doubting this, but most of the band swords I have seen are of course the brass hilted short swords listed in the Robson books for British army swords. Some of these do have short sabre blades but certainly not these long ad dramatically curved blades. As an aside pertaining to these dramatically parabolic blades, another instance of these are the examples made in America by the Virginia Manufactory of arms around 1808. These sabres had a slotted stirrup type hilt with a long deeply curved blade (40"). I often wondered why in the world these were so long and incredibly curved, but in retrospect I am thinking about the 'swagger' factor we have noted here. The state of Virginia is known for rather being its own 'country' in those early days, and the officers of their cavalry were known for flamboyance and 'swagger', one of them was of course 'Lighthorse Harry' Lee, father of Robert E. Lee. In the Civil War, these sabres were apparently still in use or drawn out of stores, and the blades considerably shortened, presumably to render them more usable in combat. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 7th January 2014 at 07:10 PM.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

6th January 2014, 07:35 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks for your comment Sirupate; and thanks for your extensive lines, Jim. Far away from me to contradict your precious observations, but let me dare telling what i think this sword is not ... or apparently is not. I have seen the grip before being restored; only the leather cover and wiring were added. Not objecting that the original hilt was a different one, this makes it more remote. I wouldn't say that the blade was a 1796 one; this one lacks the sharp lines of its back, the hatchet point, the heavy weight look and all, having a more legere (thinner) and roundish appearance. I know that the overbending of a standard blade tends to somehow distort its lines, but still; the 1796 weighs well over 2 pounds and this one weighs less than 1 1/2 pounds. Also i wouldn't call it a prototype ... at least a 'one and only' prototype; the guy i got it from had another example, with precisely the same curvature, although with a narrower blade. I would rather go for the swagger version, as you also well suggest. And to finish with my is not catharsis, agreeing with you in absolute on what concerns British and Portuguese weapons having followed a paralel path, i think that, in this specific case, this is local work. On the other hand, i find the term flanking very suggesting; confessing i never heard of it, i will look for its correspondence in Portuguese cavalry formation. Thank you.

6th January 2014, 10:42 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Good observations Nando, and what I was noting was a remote similarity in the fuller, at least what I can see of it, and not that it was actually a M1796 blade. Excellent approach which I think is always prudent in examining an item, observing exactly what that item is 'not', using a rational scope of similar possibilities and process of elimination. I know that you are of course extremely well familiar with both British and Portuguese cavalry swords (in fact much I have learned on these parallels has been from you). I agree that this is likely to be local work, particularly that you have more than one example to corroborate the idea. In the case of prototypes, it is not uncommon to have more than one of a unique style or form but what is noted would be considered rather 'not of an established or regularly seen pattern'. What I was thinking of was the number of 'prototypes' in terms of the British swords on this early period, i.e. the yataghan blade example, a number of blades on M1796 officers sabres with yelman, and the shamshir type parabolic blade but with pronounced 'pipeback' rib etc. The 'flank' companies were (at least in British battle order) units for the infantry regiments, which is why it is so interesting to see the use of these sabres. I think we are pretty much on the same page, and this is likely more the 'swagger' situation during this time of flamboyant military fashion .

7th January 2014, 12:45 PM	#3
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	I've always known these as bandsmen's swords. Regards Richard

7th January 2014, 08:34 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Bandsmen swords ? I am getting more and more distant from where i started with this sword query I mean, flanking sword was already an enigma (for me) but then, i am far from being a connoisseur. Naturaly knowing the basic meaning of the term 'flank' i searched for 'flankers' into the military environment. I didn't go further from flanking being a way of either defending the flanks of an infantry formation or atacking it, either by footmen or cavalry. I was not lucky to find any writings on swords made specifically for such maneuvers; neither i discern the difference between a 'basic' cavalry sword and a flanker's one. Still i am not closed to that ... and Sirupate must know what he is talking about. Now, a bandsmen sword; the only examples i found on the Net have nothing (at all) to do with this sword i am posting. But a Net search is what it is; i am prepared for whatever comes from a further explanation, in this case from Richard G ... if not from whoever decides to enlighten me/us

7th January 2014, 08:58 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Fernando, Do a search for 1803 Flank Officers sword and see images. When I saw your sword the blade profile reminded me of some of the more 'curved' varieties of this pattern of British sword. My Regards, Norman.