Noth African sword

[blue lander]

I can see a family resemblance to those Storta, as well as the Falchion you posted earlier. I have to say it's been fun watching you guys piece together the history of this blade form.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by blue lander

I can see a family resemblance to those Storta, as well as the Falchion you posted earlier. I have to say it's been fun watching you guys piece together the history of this blade form.

Salaams blue lander ~ Well much of it has been done before. For example just put into search Storta and heaps of stuff comes up... same with Nimcha, S'boula and the rest.

This thread can run and run.. but it needs input and constructive criticism...Lots of authors have had a go at these linkages some like Burton and Tirri have perhaps been less accurate than others like Buttin.

It is a broad subject reaching across the desert to the Indian Ocean and by sea the long way round as well as desert caravan (the same route that Ibn Battuta took) Transition of sword style and influence is clear on \Zanzibari Nimcha as well as the tantalizing link to the Sri Lankan Kastane. Reverse engineering the designs leads to the city states of Rome, Venice, Constantinople and Genoa...Pressing the button marked slavery, trade and war exposes these swords to international travel to and via South America with the Spanish and into the Indian Ocean aboard Portuguese men of war...

I think for the uninitiated here is a superb place to commence their study...and for me too long perhaps in the blinkered look at Arabian style it is a staggering eye opener.

Here is an idea I had about crosses which have obviously different meanings depending on where you're from..

This one depicts a huge cross( http://m.skinnerinc.com/m/auctions/2680B/lots/642 )and is on a Tekke tribal rug in west Turkmenestan used as a door hanging..The cross signifying a welcome light..The flickering light (if you like) of a candle.

The second smaller picture is the clincher with the St. James Cross form clearly depicted on a Moroccan rug.

This raises another important question... Is what we are looking at the famous Cross of St James/Sandiago (like the necklace shown) or something quite different?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

And...whilst I'm about it ... shall we look to the other great indicator down the historical timeline... Traditional Silver Jewellery.

Salaams all ~ How did the special cross shape gain acceptability in Moroccan traditions? In their designs on rugs and on swords. If the design was well known in Morocco who placed the cross designs on swords ..The Europeans or the Moroccan craftsmen or both?

Look at the design of the cross shaped tribal jewellery below. http://www.dphjewelry.com/art-n0912-104.html

1. On the necklace~This particular cross is stylized from the actual constellation in the night sky of the Southern Hemisphere, the Southern Cross. This design, often with rivets, is associated with the Tuaregs and Berbers.

2. On the ring.. A clear illustration of Berber tradition using the southern cross as the design in this silver ring.

Thus I present the arguement that the St James Cross was not imported to Morocco from the Spanish though it may well have gone the other way entirely. I also argue that it was not the St James Cross but a simple rendition of the Star form seen in the night sky... The Southern Cross. A Berber construct.

Perhaps this also places the basic moon inscriptions in a different light?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[blue lander]

Very good information that raises the question... who stamped the crosses and moon in these blades? On the one hand it looks like they were stamped in the metal with a die rather than etched. Can you stamp a cold steel blade, or does it have to be done while it's being forged? I guess you could heat it up to stamp it after the fact, but wouldn't that ruin the temper?

On the other hand, it sort of looks like this blade was cut down at both ends and where the current hilt is attached was once part of the blade. If the crosses were stamped into the blade when it was a longer sword, wouldn't that place them somewhere in the middle of the original blade? If that's the case then they may have been stamped at the time the blade was cut down.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all; Note to Forum. Wikipedia speaks of moons and stars.

Quote. ''Crescent moon and star ;It wasn't until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent moon and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. Legend holds that the founder of the Ottoman Dynasty, Sultan Osman I, had a dream in which the crescent moon stretched from one end of the earth to the other. Taking this as a good omen, he chose to keep the crescent and make it the symbol of his dynasty. There is speculation that the five points on the star represent the Five Pillars of Islam, but this is pure conjecture. The five points were not standard on the Ottoman flags, and it is still not standard on flags used in the Muslim world today.


The Ottomans also used a flag with a crescent. When the first Ottoman Caliph, Selim I assumed power, the religious flag and the national flag were separated. While both flags featured a right facing crescent, the national flag was red and the religious flag green, and, at a later date a five-pointed star was added. This type of flag has become the de facto Islamic flag, and is used, with variations, by multiple Muslim lands such as Algeria, Azerbaijan, the Comoros, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Pakistan, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Uzbekistan, and the Western Sahara. As the crescent and star have no religious significance however, some Muslim scholars are against attaching these signs on mosques and minarets or using them to denote Muslim societies''.Unquote.

So far as the Berber star situation it seems clear that their ancient traditions which were not written down but were handed down, thus, a Southern Cross format could have preceded the other stars mentioned above. The non religious aspect is interesting since it refers more to the sighting of the new moon (Crescent Moon to ascertain the Lunar Calender) rather than a religious consideration... though it may also have Talismanic reasoning and is, perhaps, pre Islamic as could be the stars and southern cross insignias..

At any rate, moons and stars preceded the advent of such European sword marks since The Ottoman Empire, sometimes referred to as the Turkish Empire or simply Turkey, was a contiguous transcontinental empire founded by Turkish tribes under Osman Bey in north-western Anatolia in 1299. That was about 500 years before European trade blades entered Africa.

The transition of moon and star concepts may have moved in parallel with the conquest of Africa meaning that they would have been well versed in its use quite early since the conquest of North Africa continued under the Umayyad dynasty, taking Algeria by 61H/680AD, and Morocco the following year. Even assuming a few hundred years ...it can be seen that by say 1400 AD the moon cross and star insignia across North Africa would have been well known.

In addition the 5 pointed star, crescent moon and southern cross are insignias common in Morocco today.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All Note to Library; Members may be puzzled that a womens jewellery design or an item of womens Jewellery could be used on a mans item such as a sword...however...

The Southern Cross from Agades or Iferwan was originally worn only by men who transferred it from father to son at puberty. It hints to the virility and strength of the young men in relation to their traditional nomad lifestyle. The cross represents the saddle pommel of their camels or in a wider view, the four cardinal directions.

Traditionally a father would transmit the cross to his son saying "Son, I give you the four directions, as no one knows where your path will end."

And.... Each Tuareg village has its own Agadez or Southern Cross. There are 21 distinct crosses that have been documented to identify the Tuareg tribal groups of Northern Niger viewable below and on http://www.raken.com/info/eng/historique/touareg.asp

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams, All ~ Here is one of the very few paintings displaying Arab swords I thought it worth capturing for Library. I can see Yats, Flyssa and some sort of scimitar...

Information Description = Painting entitled "A Tale of 1001 Nights" Oil on canvas, 19'' x 27 7/8'' |Source = http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/databa...ge.asp?id=6674 |Date = 1873 |Author = Gustave Clarence Rodolphe Boulanger.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely excellent input Ibrahiim!!! and what you well point out are the profound connections between symbolism, design and iconography in the decoration and styles in ethnographic arms.
In tribal tradition and folk religion there are many interpretations and perceptions pertaining to these interesting elements seen on these arms, and indeed many are considered in accord with western or European counterparts.
The cross as noted, typically is perceived as representing the four cardinal directions, and many symbols and devices have certain ecumenical meanings. Also, celestial symbolism is key in tribal folk religion and various representations in talismanic or allegorical themes.

A great book on much of this, in this case jewelry, is "Africa Adorned" by Angela Fisher. She spent many years in field work studying these very topics with the jewelry of these tribal peoples and shows the significance of varying symbolism and beliefs.

Another aspect of profound associations between material culture, artistic iconography and symbolism on weapons is with items such as rugs and textiles. One instance of this is a book titled "Afghan Amulet", and cannot recall author. It concerns a triangular shape used through Central Asia and its inherent symbolism. Also, Tarussuk & Blair, in their encyclopedia of weapons in the reference on 'flyssa' I believe, note the strong connection between the symbolism in designs in Berber rugs and the apotropaics on the weapons.

Also as noted, the crescent moon was a well known symbol long before Islam, much in the way the Star of David was in use long before becoming associated with Judaism, and the cross symbolically known long before Christianity. In most cases, understanding the application of symbols or devices must be considered in context, as most simple geometric symbols have far different meanings in their various cultural spheres.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Absolutely excellent input Ibrahiim!!! and what you well point out are the profound connections between symbolism, design and iconography in the decoration and styles in ethnographic arms.
In tribal tradition and folk religion there are many interpretations and perceptions pertaining to these interesting elements seen on these arms, and indeed many are considered in accord with western or European counterparts.
The cross as noted, typically is perceived as representing the four cardinal directions, and many symbols and devices have certain ecumenical meanings. Also, celestial symbolism is key in tribal folk religion and various representations in talismanic or allegorical themes.

A great book on much of this, in this case jewelry, is "Africa Adorned" by Angela Fisher. She spent many years in field work studying these very topics with the jewelry of these tribal peoples and shows the significance of varying symbolism and beliefs.

Another aspect of profound associations between material culture, artistic iconography and symbolism on weapons is with items such as rugs and textiles. One instance of this is a book titled "Afghan Amulet", and cannot recall author. It concerns a triangular shape used through Central Asia and its inherent symbolism. Also, Tarussuk & Blair, in their encyclopedia of weapons in the reference on 'flyssa' I believe, note the strong connection between the symbolism in designs in Berber rugs and the apotropaics on the weapons.

Also as noted, the crescent moon was a well known symbol long before Islam, much in the way the Star of David was in use long before becoming associated with Judaism, and the cross symbolically known long before Christianity. In most cases, understanding the application of symbols or devices must be considered in context, as most simple geometric symbols have far different meanings in their various cultural spheres.

Salaams Jim.. Shukran ~ Like the Southern Cross insignia .. This thread I believe points in several directions! It is difficult to say where it will turn next since encompassed in the mix are Flyssa, Yatagan, Italian, East and West Mediterranean weapons Tuareg, Moroccan, Algerian, Zanzibari and Sri Lankan swords and daggers... to name but a few.

I have looked into the library but I cannot seem to find your dissertation but it must be in archives somewhere ... from 2003...I think..

I hope we can keep everything under one roof so we can build a major thread from this foundation.

The book you mention is "The Afghan Amulet" by Sheila Paine.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.