Any Amazon collectors?

ashoka · 15th June 2013, 06:18 PM

Thanks Barry. Yes years of collecting and quite some dedication to the subject. These things in particular look good in a group. Apparantly once you have one you want them all...

Sajen · 15th June 2013, 09:33 PM

What a magnificent collection! Thanks to your friend and you for sharing.

Regards,

Detlef

KuKulzA28 · 16th June 2013, 01:26 AM

I am in awe... there are so many real examples of clubs I have only seen sketches of. This is amazing.

Well, I can't possibly show that sort of volume... but, I got a Yanomamö dueling club recently. It, like most things made by them, are made of natural materials, with no decor, and relatively simple but effective. You can see them briefly in the famous "Axe fight" scene, here. They began fighting with roof poles, and normally would have escalated to a club duel with these wooden-sword/shortstaff style clubs... but it escalated right into an ax/machete fight.

These are incredibly rare in collections, I know of only 2, mine and the one in the American Museum of Natural History.

VANDOO · 16th June 2013, 05:33 AM

I WOULD THINK THE COLLECTOR WHO HAS THIS COLLECTION WOULD HAVE QUITE A LOT OF INFORMATION ON THESE WEAPONS AND COULD ANSWER MANY QUESTIONS.
I KNOW THE SHORT HOURGLASS SHAPED CLUBS SOMETIMES HAVE TRIBAL DESIGNS.
FOCUSING ON THEM.
1. DO DIFFERENT DESIGNS TELL WHICH TRIBE AND REGION THEY CAME FROM.?
2. ARE MOST OF THE TRIBES MAKEING THESE CLUBS COASTAL TRIBES OF CARIB ORIGIONS?
3. WHICH ONES ARE WAR CLUBS AND ARE SOME OF THESE CLUBS FOR CEREMONIAL USE OR TO DENOTE PRESTIGE OR RANK OF THE OWNER.?

Tim Simmons · 16th June 2013, 11:00 AM

Truly amazing collection. This collector must have a group of porters to carry the wallet.

Sajen · 16th June 2013, 11:07 AM

Want to post pictures from this Kayopo club which just ended on ebay without someone bid but think the price was ok.

Tim Simmons · 16th June 2013, 11:25 AM

I think the price was not too bad. For me +shipping +import tax +VAT too much for one of the more common club types.

KuKulzA28 · 16th June 2013, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I WOULD THINK THE COLLECTOR WHO HAS THIS COLLECTION WOULD HAVE QUITE A LOT OF INFORMATION ON THESE WEAPONS AND COULD ANSWER MANY QUESTIONS.
I KNOW THE SHORT HOURGLASS SHAPED CLUBS SOMETIMES HAVE TRIBAL DESIGNS.
FOCUSING ON THEM.
1. DO DIFFERENT DESIGNS TELL WHICH TRIBE AND REGION THEY CAME FROM.?
2. ARE MOST OF THE TRIBES MAKEING THESE CLUBS COASTAL TRIBES OF CARIB ORIGIONS?
3. WHICH ONES ARE WAR CLUBS AND ARE SOME OF THESE CLUBS FOR CEREMONIAL USE OR TO DENOTE PRESTIGE OR RANK OF THE OWNER.?

The hour-glass ones, you mean the Aputu?

They're mainly from the Carib and Arawak tribes. Caribs including island Carib, Kali'na, Ye'kwana, etc. and the related Makushi and other groups. The whole Guianas region had these clubs (French Guinana, Suriname, and Guyana).

I'm not sure about carvings or painting or designs denoting rank or tribal affiliation but I do know in more recent times there have been ones of poorer quality for tourism, or smaller seemingly less combat effective ones probably for dance... but all the really old ones seem at least 15-16" or a little more and made of quality hardwoods.

KuKulzA28 · 18th December 2013, 05:43 AM

Regarding Post #51 with the Ikpeng sword-bat

I found a video, at 3 minutes you see the kids showing two such clubs
the raised area on one side and the shallow furrow on the other is clear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TOirYOJEt4

Tim Simmons · 9th January 2014, 10:53 AM

I took a picture of these two clubs in the Dhalem Berlin. They are from Micronesia. I cannot remember the exact Island group. I add them here just to show how similar they are to Amazon clubs.

Tim Simmons · 12th January 2014, 08:36 PM

From late last summer I made two purchases hoping to add to my collect but badly burnt my fingers on bad judgement. I console myself with the fact that things were a little troublesome at the time and you win some and you lose some when you gamble. However a New Year and a birthday too boot. So what about this. I am informed that it was collected by missionaries {1950s} from the Maquiritare peoples who inhabit areas of the extreme south of Venezuela and the border with Brazil, the area would have been part of the old idea of the Guyana's. Missionaries may have questionable motives but they have always been a good source of ethnographic material. 32 inches long, hard to get a good sense of it from one picture and not with similar pieces. Just have to go through a few weeks of waiting. What I do find immediately interesting is the difference in weave pattern when compared to the previous examples from much further south in this thread. When I have it I can make a more serious comparative study. In the meantime here is the item.

VANDOO · 13th January 2014, 02:36 AM

I LOOKED AT THE ITEM LAST NIGHT AND DECIDED TO PONDER ON IT FURTHER TODAY. GLAD TO SEE YOU GOT IT.

I JUST COULD NOT DETERMINE TO MY SATISFACTION IF IT WAS A WEAPON SYMBOLIC OR OTHERWISE OR SOME SORT OF IMPLEMENT.

I DO BELIEVE THE INFORMATION OF AGE, LOCATION AND TRIBE AND WHO COLLECTED IT. A NICE AUTHENTIC TRIBAL NON-TOURIST ITEM. I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR ASSESMENT WHEN YOU RECEIVE IT.

Tim Simmons · 13th January 2014, 07:50 AM

I think I have seen pictures of other Amazon pronged weapons I will search.

I am keeping me fingers that this is a case of---- He who hesitates is lost, rather than ---- Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.

16th June 2013, 01:26 AM	#3
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I am in awe... there are so many real examples of clubs I have only seen sketches of. This is amazing. Well, I can't possibly show that sort of volume... but, I got a Yanomamö dueling club recently. It, like most things made by them, are made of natural materials, with no decor, and relatively simple but effective. You can see them briefly in the famous "Axe fight" scene, here. They began fighting with roof poles, and normally would have escalated to a club duel with these wooden-sword/shortstaff style clubs... but it escalated right into an ax/machete fight. These are incredibly rare in collections, I know of only 2, mine and the one in the American Museum of Natural History. Attached Images

16th June 2013, 11:07 AM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Want to post pictures from this Kayopo club which just ended on ebay without someone bid but think the price was ok. Attached Images

9th January 2014, 10:53 AM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I took a picture of these two clubs in the Dhalem Berlin. They are from Micronesia. I cannot remember the exact Island group. I add them here just to show how similar they are to Amazon clubs. Attached Images

12th January 2014, 08:36 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Orinoco From late last summer I made two purchases hoping to add to my collect but badly burnt my fingers on bad judgement. I console myself with the fact that things were a little troublesome at the time and you win some and you lose some when you gamble. However a New Year and a birthday too boot. So what about this. I am informed that it was collected by missionaries {1950s} from the Maquiritare peoples who inhabit areas of the extreme south of Venezuela and the border with Brazil, the area would have been part of the old idea of the Guyana's. Missionaries may have questionable motives but they have always been a good source of ethnographic material. 32 inches long, hard to get a good sense of it from one picture and not with similar pieces. Just have to go through a few weeks of waiting. What I do find immediately interesting is the difference in weave pattern when compared to the previous examples from much further south in this thread. When I have it I can make a more serious comparative study. In the meantime here is the item. Attached Images

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15th June 2013, 06:18 PM	#1
ashoka Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 61	Thanks Barry. Yes years of collecting and quite some dedication to the subject. These things in particular look good in a group. Apparantly once you have one you want them all...

15th June 2013, 09:33 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	What a magnificent collection! Thanks to your friend and you for sharing. Regards, Detlef

16th June 2013, 05:33 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD THINK THE COLLECTOR WHO HAS THIS COLLECTION WOULD HAVE QUITE A LOT OF INFORMATION ON THESE WEAPONS AND COULD ANSWER MANY QUESTIONS. I KNOW THE SHORT HOURGLASS SHAPED CLUBS SOMETIMES HAVE TRIBAL DESIGNS. FOCUSING ON THEM. 1. DO DIFFERENT DESIGNS TELL WHICH TRIBE AND REGION THEY CAME FROM.? 2. ARE MOST OF THE TRIBES MAKEING THESE CLUBS COASTAL TRIBES OF CARIB ORIGIONS? 3. WHICH ONES ARE WAR CLUBS AND ARE SOME OF THESE CLUBS FOR CEREMONIAL USE OR TO DENOTE PRESTIGE OR RANK OF THE OWNER.?

16th June 2013, 11:00 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Truly amazing collection. This collector must have a group of porters to carry the wallet.

16th June 2013, 11:25 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I think the price was not too bad. For me +shipping +import tax +VAT too much for one of the more common club types.

18th December 2013, 05:43 AM	#9
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Regarding Post #51 with the Ikpeng sword-bat I found a video, at 3 minutes you see the kids showing two such clubs the raised area on one side and the shallow furrow on the other is clear http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TOirYOJEt4

13th January 2014, 02:36 AM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I LOOKED AT THE ITEM LAST NIGHT AND DECIDED TO PONDER ON IT FURTHER TODAY. GLAD TO SEE YOU GOT IT. I JUST COULD NOT DETERMINE TO MY SATISFACTION IF IT WAS A WEAPON SYMBOLIC OR OTHERWISE OR SOME SORT OF IMPLEMENT. I DO BELIEVE THE INFORMATION OF AGE, LOCATION AND TRIBE AND WHO COLLECTED IT. A NICE AUTHENTIC TRIBAL NON-TOURIST ITEM. I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR ASSESMENT WHEN YOU RECEIVE IT.

13th January 2014, 07:50 AM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I think I have seen pictures of other Amazon pronged weapons I will search. I am keeping me fingers that this is a case of---- He who hesitates is lost, rather than ---- Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.