Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Any Amazon collectors? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12963)

Tim Simmons 3rd December 2010 05:32 PM

Any Amazon collectors?
 
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Are there any collectors of Peruvian or Brazilian Amazon Indian weapons? If so I would like your opinions please.

For many years I have wanted a club or should I say clubs from this region. I am not really talking about "Antique" though yes we all want as old as we can get. I have seen on TV recently contacted people with clubs but cannot find publications on the subject or stuff on the net. I have a book on feather work :shrug:

I have recently bought from a USA internet " Tribal art" trader, this club. Which was not a great sum of money so I do not expect too much. He assures me it is genuine, collected himself and says it is older as these things go :rolleyes:

It has yet to arrive. I can show clubs of the same size approx 23inches long, like the two East African examples I show here. The club is also the same approx width as the Trobriand island/Massim club, 3inches. The seller says it is 3/4 inch thick which is a touch more than the sword club.

If you have any information on this club and weapons from the region please do not hold back. The Amazon club is on the black background.

Luc LEFEBVRE 3rd December 2010 05:39 PM

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Yes... :D

Tim Simmons 3rd December 2010 05:41 PM

Lovely examples, pricey :rolleyes: .

kahnjar1 3rd December 2010 06:15 PM

..........my wife would object...........but nice just the same :mad:

Berkley 3rd December 2010 08:29 PM

High maintenance collectibles. :D

asomotif 3rd December 2010 10:24 PM

Pfew... An open door, and I am not the first to kick it in :D :D ;)

I am in the lucky position that I can get mandau's in the dining room, and Asmat shields on my bedroom wall.
But collecting AMAZONES.... No, my wife will surely object.
Besides that these Amzones have a name of having a temper. So even collecting them can involve certain risks :cool:

Than serious, I bump into feather decorations on regular basis. But clubs attributed to the amazone region. They are probably not very common.

Surinam has been dutch colonial property in the past.
Did / or do they have clubs there ?

Best regards,
Willem

kronckew 3rd December 2010 10:32 PM

:) the bow on the right is strung backwards. obviously the photographer was not a horsebowman.


Tim Simmons 5th December 2010 02:39 PM

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On the serious side I have found this picture. The bearded chap with the red headress is carrying a fantastic looking spear. The club is said to be either Bora or Yagua people. How can one get these weapons?

kronckew 5th December 2010 05:45 PM

get yourself born into the tribe, that should do it. as it is likely too late for that, maybe adoption would work for you.

i'd like to know what wood they made those out of. looks like a lot of patient woodworking too.

i's suspect there must be a brazilian native arts store somewhere, but likely touristy stuff. maybe one of our brazilians has an idea?

Tim Simmons 5th December 2010 06:03 PM

Yes sure there is tourist stuff, but that fellows arms dont look like it to me.

Tim Simmons 5th December 2010 06:22 PM

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Got this picture from 1918 publication. Tukano, still western Amazon but more northerly Columbia/Brazil border but not that far from Yagua.

fearn 6th December 2010 12:22 AM

No blowpipes? Considering that (reportedly) many of the tribes that used to make blowpipes have lost their skills, I'd suggest this might be a great thing to collect. Additionally, it avoids the macaw feathers and jaguar teeth which would get something confiscated under CITES.

Best,

F

colin henshaw 6th December 2010 07:12 AM

Tim

I occasionally find things from Guyana, because of the colonial connection (ex British Guiana), but almost never from Brazil. I wonder if Portugal could be a possible source ?

Tim Simmons 15th December 2010 06:20 PM

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No worries here I was not expecting anying older than the last part of the 20th century. I like the big pommel, a close contact bludgeon.

VANDOO 21st December 2010 03:12 AM

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MY SOURCE DRIED UP QUITE A WHILE BACK AND WAS NOT VERY PRODUCTIVE ANYWAY BUT I HAVE DABBLED A BIT IN SOUTH AMERICAN CLUBS. I WILL PUT IN A FEW PICTURES WITH WHAT INFORMATION I HAVE.
1. KAYAPO TRIBE, BRAZIL, DANCE
2.REPLICA OF AZTEC MACUAHUITL WAR CLUB WITH OBSIDIAN BLADES.
3. BORA TRIBE, PERU, RIO AMPIYACU PEBAS
4. FOUR VARIOUS AMAZON WAR CLUBS
5.KARAJA TRIBE BRAZIL, 20.5IN. LONG CLUB
6.HUAORA TRIBE HUNTER WITH CLUB, AND BLOWGUN
7.MACARA CLUB,GUIANA N. BRAZIL CLUB 25.5 X 4IN.
8. SHIPIBO KOMBO TRIBE,PERU, FULL SIZE CLUB
9. SHIPIBO KOMBO, PERU, TOURIST MODEL 21 IN LONG.
10. SHIPIBO KOMBO TRIBE,UOAYALI RIVER AREA PERU
11.YANOMANI TRIBE CLUBS
12. AZTEC REPLICA MACUAHUITL WAR CLUB

VANDOO 21st December 2010 04:11 AM

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A FEW MORE AND I WILL QUIT.
1. AZTEC REPLICA OBSIDIAN BLADES
2.KARAJA TRIBE WAR CLUB
3. & 4. KAYAPO WAR CLUBS
5. LEATHER PERDIDA, EARLY FORM OF BOLO'S
6. MACANA CLUB, 11 X 2.75 IN LONG, GUIANA ,N. BRAZIL

Tim Simmons 21st December 2010 08:55 AM

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Thanks for the pictures Barry. I was going to buy one of those clubs no the black background, but by the time I made my mind up, somebody else snapped it up. I was frying a Niue fish, so you win some you loose some. JusT this picture 1908 is most interesting. As specially the Brummagen/Brummagem ie Burmingham England goods. From "The Hidden Peoples of the Amazon museum of mankind, Elizabeth Carmichael 1985" at this date it is said that large tribe against tribe conflict had more or less stopped but smaller inter-tribal conflicts still happened.

fearn 21st December 2010 04:11 PM

Hi Vandoo,

Loved the pictures, but I'm not sure that the "Bolo perdido" is an early version of the bolo. I remember reading that it was a later version, and the multi-ball versions were the oldest. Either way, it's a cool weapon from the Pampas.

Best,

F

Nathaniel 23rd December 2010 12:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
:) the bow on the right is strung backwards. obviously the photographer was not a horsebowman.



Yes, I noticed that too...afterwards :p

Nathaniel 23rd December 2010 12:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
A FEW MORE AND I WILL QUIT.
1. AZTEC REPLICA OBSIDIAN BLADES
2.KARAJA TRIBE WAR CLUB
3. & 4. KAYAPO WAR CLUBS
5. LEATHER PERDIDA, EARLY FORM OF BOLO'S
6. MACANA CLUB, 11 X 2.75 IN LONG, GUIANA ,N. BRAZIL



Obsidian lined clubs would definitely make a garly cut...some might groan when I mention the show...but the Spike TV program Deadliest Warrior featured a Aztec Jaguar warrior:

http://deadliestwarrior.wikia.com/wiki/Aztec_Jaguar

fearn 23rd December 2010 12:36 AM

GROAN :D :D :D

Nathaniel 23rd December 2010 12:52 AM

:p None the less it was kind of interesting seeing the program how a heavy cotton vest worked as an effective light armour :)

fearn 23rd December 2010 02:46 AM

Personally, I think the Koreans did it better. But that is off topic. Getting back on topic, why hasn't anyone talked about Francisco de Orellana yet?

Best,

F

Tim Simmons 23rd December 2010 08:50 AM

A British historian "Michael Woods" made a very fine set of TV documentaries the "Conquistadors" episode 3 is all about that amazing Amazon journey. The set is available from amazon. It really does help you understand the Amazon basin.

http://www.mytvblog.org/?p=310

VANDOO 23rd December 2010 07:09 PM

THERE IS A BOOK THAT IS A CULTURAL STUDY ON THE YANOMAMO TRIBE. IT IS " THE FIERCE PEOPLE" BY NAPOLEN A. CHAGNON. IT IS AVAILABLE AND NOT EXPENSIVE. A ANTHROPOLOGICAL STUDY NOT A NOVEL FULL OF ADVENTURE AND CONJECTURE BUT ENLIGHTENING AND NOT A DIFFICULT READ.
THE TRIBES MOST WRITTEN ABOUT ARE THE ONES WHO USED TO SHRINK HEADS NOTABLY THE HJIVARO /JIVARO. THERE WERE OTHER TRIBES WHO HAD THE PRACTICE AS WELL. IT SEEMES TO HAVE OCCURED ONLY IN THE AMAZON IN ECUADOUR, BRAZIL AND POSSIBLY PERU :confused: . I WOULD HAVE TO BACK TRACK AND DO A LOT OF READING TO BE SURE AND THERE ISN'T ENOUGH TIME SO TAKE THIS ONLY AS A GUIDE LINE. :rolleyes: I COULD ADD PICTURES OF SHRUNKEN HEADS ECT. BUT WILL REFRAIN AS NO DOUBT SOMEONE WOULD BE OFFENDED.
IN MY SECOND POST WITH PICTURES THE ORDER GOT SHIFTED BUT IT IS STILL EASY TO SORT IT OUT AS TO WHAT IS WHAT

fearn 23rd December 2010 08:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Simmons
A British historian "Michael Woods" made a very fine set of TV documentaries the "Conquistadors" episode 3 is all about that amazing Amazon journey. The set is available from amazon. It really does help you understand the Amazon basin.

http://www.mytvblog.org/?p=310


That looks neat. The Lost Cities of The Amazon on National Geographic covers similar ground, I think. It shows up on the National Geographic Channel in the US.

The story Tim and I are alluding to is Orellana's voyage down the Amazon, the first time a European had seen the place. While on the river, he encountered what he called cities, and places where settlements stretched for kilometers along the bank.

For centuries, his report was disregarded as a fantasy, but the archeologists are finding evidence in the soil (see terra preta that Orellana's report may be accurate.

The implication is that the Amazon basin was once densely populated, and that our modern view of wandering tribes is actually a product of European contact. It also implies that many of the curiosities of Amazonian culture, particularly things such as curare and other drugs, may actually have been discovered by people in a largely vanished, and very unusual culture.

Speaking of which, cultural erosion continues apace in the Amazon. I read a few months ago that the tribe that supplied westerners with the first, identifiable curare preparation no longer know how to make or use it. They rely instead on western-supplied guns and food. If you happen to have Amazonian artifacts, I'd suggest curating them well. The children or grandchildren of the tribes who made them may one day want them back, when they start reclaiming their heritage and trying to find out how their ancestors did things. Collectors may inadvertently become the guardians of their cultures. We all realize that we may not be the last owner of a piece, but in this case, a piece we like today may be a cultural treasure in decades to come.

Best,

F

Rick 24th December 2010 12:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
THERE IS A BOOK THAT IS A CULTURAL STUDY ON THE YANOMAMO TRIBE. IT IS " THE FIERCE PEOPLE" BY NAPOLEN A. CHAGNON. IT IS AVAILABLE AND NOT EXPENSIVE. A ANTHROPOLOGICAL STUDY NOT A NOVEL FULL OF ADVENTURE AND CONJECTURE BUT ENLIGHTENING AND NOT A DIFFICULT READ.
THE TRIBES MOST WRITTEN ABOUT ARE THE ONES WHO USED TO SHRINK HEADS NOTABLY THE HJIVARO /JIVARO. THERE WERE OTHER TRIBES WHO HAD THE PRACTICE AS WELL. IT SEEMES TO HAVE OCCURED ONLY IN THE AMAZON IN ECUADOUR, BRAZIL AND POSSIBLY PERU :confused: . I WOULD HAVE TO BACK TRACK AND DO A LOT OF READING TO BE SURE AND THERE ISN'T ENOUGH TIME SO TAKE THIS ONLY AS A GUIDE LINE. :rolleyes: I COULD ADD PICTURES OF SHRUNKEN HEADS ECT. BUT WILL REFRAIN AS NO DOUBT SOMEONE WOULD BE OFFENDED.
IN MY SECOND POST WITH PICTURES THE ORDER GOT SHIFTED BUT IT IS STILL EASY TO SORT IT OUT AS TO WHAT IS WHAT


I saw and handled my first shrunken head 50 years ago . :)
It was given to a friend of mine by an older person in our neighborhood .

It is a very curious feeling holding another man's head .
An experience I will carry with me .

Tim Simmons 17th February 2011 07:44 PM

Got a couple of these coming-

http://americanindian.si.edu/search...fare&objid=Club

Thought it might be a good idea while they are still around as the real thing. 20th century like so much of all the stuff we see here.

Titus Pullo 18th February 2011 01:48 PM

Anybody seen that movie "Apocalypto"? It's a great movie.... They use real Indians and some actors from Mexico, which are basically Indians anyway. I recommend it to anyone.

Tim Simmons 1st March 2011 05:20 PM

Two rather spiffing new chums.
 
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The long one is 45 inches long and idea for keeping an arms length apart. They are not antique but they are certainly not new and have some age when I compare the the weaving with Naga pieces. The pictures are from "AMAZONIEN Indianer der Regenwalder und Savannen, Museum fur Volkerkunde Dresden 2009" collection dates in the publication span the 20th century. So I think I am in good company.


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