silver keris toli-toli ( comments pls)

Gustav · 30th May 2013, 09:41 AM

A link to a thread with genuine old Passio Sumangge, and one of the most beautiful one, attached to a Keris of Sultan from Riau-Lingga:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=toli

Perhaps the earliest one with Passio Sumangge is the keris of August the Strong of Saxony, it's in Europe since 17. cent.

rasjid · 30th May 2013, 05:42 PM

Yes Alan, its written in Keris Bugis book.
As per Naga Sasra comment, attached sample my keris with passio sumange.
I think Andi irfan also written somewhere in this forum about passio sumange as well.

If you can see underneath there is a piece of paper which normally written something good for the owner or written prayer (As told to me by senior in bugis keris)
I just leave it as it is and stain the blade (personal preference)

Rasjid

David · 30th May 2013, 06:11 PM

Well, i guess we are not really getting any closer to the original intent of the passio sumange, though Andi has some interesting things to say here.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=99317
I'm not sure that Jean's hanging suggestion make sense since many of what appear to be earlier examples or not the simple cord variety that his or Rasjid's keris show. Also, the loop is on the front face of the sheath so i cannot see how it would hang well from a belt with this loop.

A. G. Maisey · 30th May 2013, 11:25 PM

Thanks Rasjid, but I'm not clear on whether you're telling me my recollection was correct, of Naga Sasra's recounting is correct.

My recollection could well be wrong, as noted, but I do know that what I wrote I have read somewhere.

One of the problems with anything like this, by that, I mean the interpretation of intent, is that the interpretation is only good for a specific window in time, most especially is that so with the keris. Thus it is that we have a philosophical or a mystical interpretation put upon a utilitarian object when the original need for utility has passed.

A really good example of what I mean here is the system of philosophy that has grown around the keris in Central Jawa over the last 200 years, or maybe less. The utilitarian purpose of the keris in Jawa passed long ago, but it became a cultural artifact and developed a different purpose for its continued existence.

Even though I recall reading the "tie down in presence of ruler" thing for the toli2, my personal opinion is that it developed from the need to ensure that the keris did not fall from its place on the body, I believe that originally it would have been used to secure the keris against loss.

Then the presence of ruler thing, and finally the philosophical interpretation --- and of course let us not forget social display, art and prestige.

The very simple fact of the entire human existence is that the passing of time alters the way in which things are perceived:- what is true today is not necessarily true for any time in the past.

Rick · 31st May 2013, 01:22 AM

My oh my !
I can't believe how many of these are now featured on a certain auction site since we have started discussing them ...

Cause and effect ?

A. G. Maisey · 31st May 2013, 01:58 AM

Isn't it nice to be taken notice of?

Wonder if Lee could charge a commission for promotion?

rasjid · 31st May 2013, 02:57 AM

Hi Alan,

Just confirming your statement that its written in Keris Bugis book about "in the presence of a ruler". I believe pp.153

Rasjid

Gustav · 31st May 2013, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Even though I recall reading the "tie down in presence of ruler" thing for the toli2, my personal opinion is that it developed from the need to ensure that the keris did not fall from its place on the body, I believe that originally it would have been used to secure the keris against loss.

Then the presence of ruler thing, and finally the philosophical interpretation --- and of course let us not forget social display, art and prestige.

I also think, the original purpose of Toli2 is securing the keris, yet slightly another kind. The earliest examples of Toli2 are part of the Gowa-Makassar type Kerisses, and another part of full ensemble is the loop attached at the Keris hilt base. I suppose, this loop was intertwined with the upper loop of Toli2, and it very well could be done at court, as a kind of early securing of a weapon. Both loops mostly have the same workmanship.

Later the loop at the hilt basis disappeared and perhaps here the whole thing got another meaning.

Rick · 31st May 2013, 03:26 PM

A case of the form outlasting the function .

A. G. Maisey · 2nd June 2013, 01:38 PM

The sort of toli2 I've handled had what I can only describe as a figure eight loop, a small loop at the top, then a much larger loop that extended down the gandar, both in cord that had been wound with twine, and bound to the gandar at the waist of the figure eight. The whole thing was just a circle of bound cord that was held in at a waist and bound to the gandar. Pretty simple really, functional and no ornamentation.

If the setagen was run through the lower loop the scabbard would have been very firmly anchored to the body.

30th May 2013, 05:42 PM	#2
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Bugis Sulawesi Yes Alan, its written in Keris Bugis book. As per Naga Sasra comment, attached sample my keris with passio sumange. I think Andi irfan also written somewhere in this forum about passio sumange as well. If you can see underneath there is a piece of paper which normally written something good for the owner or written prayer (As told to me by senior in bugis keris) I just leave it as it is and stain the blade (personal preference) Rasjid Attached Images

31st May 2013, 01:22 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Toli x 2 My oh my ! I can't believe how many of these are now featured on a certain auction site since we have started discussing them ... Cause and effect ?

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30th May 2013, 09:41 AM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	A link to a thread with genuine old Passio Sumangge, and one of the most beautiful one, attached to a Keris of Sultan from Riau-Lingga: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=toli Perhaps the earliest one with Passio Sumangge is the keris of August the Strong of Saxony, it's in Europe since 17. cent.

30th May 2013, 06:11 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well, i guess we are not really getting any closer to the original intent of the passio sumange, though Andi has some interesting things to say here. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=99317 I'm not sure that Jean's hanging suggestion make sense since many of what appear to be earlier examples or not the simple cord variety that his or Rasjid's keris show. Also, the loop is on the front face of the sheath so i cannot see how it would hang well from a belt with this loop.

30th May 2013, 11:25 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks Rasjid, but I'm not clear on whether you're telling me my recollection was correct, of Naga Sasra's recounting is correct. My recollection could well be wrong, as noted, but I do know that what I wrote I have read somewhere. One of the problems with anything like this, by that, I mean the interpretation of intent, is that the interpretation is only good for a specific window in time, most especially is that so with the keris. Thus it is that we have a philosophical or a mystical interpretation put upon a utilitarian object when the original need for utility has passed. A really good example of what I mean here is the system of philosophy that has grown around the keris in Central Jawa over the last 200 years, or maybe less. The utilitarian purpose of the keris in Jawa passed long ago, but it became a cultural artifact and developed a different purpose for its continued existence. Even though I recall reading the "tie down in presence of ruler" thing for the toli2, my personal opinion is that it developed from the need to ensure that the keris did not fall from its place on the body, I believe that originally it would have been used to secure the keris against loss. Then the presence of ruler thing, and finally the philosophical interpretation --- and of course let us not forget social display, art and prestige. The very simple fact of the entire human existence is that the passing of time alters the way in which things are perceived:- what is true today is not necessarily true for any time in the past.

31st May 2013, 01:58 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Isn't it nice to be taken notice of? Wonder if Lee could charge a commission for promotion?

31st May 2013, 02:57 AM	#7
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Hi Alan, Just confirming your statement that its written in Keris Bugis book about "in the presence of a ruler". I believe pp.153 Rasjid

31st May 2013, 03:26 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	A case of the form outlasting the function .

2nd June 2013, 01:38 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	The sort of toli2 I've handled had what I can only describe as a figure eight loop, a small loop at the top, then a much larger loop that extended down the gandar, both in cord that had been wound with twine, and bound to the gandar at the waist of the figure eight. The whole thing was just a circle of bound cord that was held in at a waist and bound to the gandar. Pretty simple really, functional and no ornamentation. If the setagen was run through the lower loop the scabbard would have been very firmly anchored to the body.