Saudia Jambiya for Identification

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams kahnjar1 I agree with much of your post however, I think the provenance is mixed(as it is with many Omani Khanjars particularly Salalah items) Lets look at this stripped down;
1. Hilt Rhino ~ Could be the Habaabi hilt. Agreed that the pommel configuration is too "Tee Shaped" to be Saidia Royal Style. It could be from another Omani Khanjar see the attached Tee Shaped Dagger. It could also be off a Muscat Khanjar.
2. The big hilt ring... This is off a Royal Omani Hilt for sure...
3. The Cuff silver same geometry as 2 above ... same source.
4. The Throat silver.. 2 and 3 above same source off the Royal weapon.
5. Toe This is off some other Omani Khanjar not the royal style. I have seen a lot of flat ended toe units on Omani Khanjars. Probably Nizwa.
6. Rings ... Not silver but still in the style of Omani and may be from the original scabbard. Two rings missing.
7. The Floral shapes on the hilt... Probably off the same Royal hilt as the other silver work... Same decorative items are on the Habaabi but the chances are this is ex Royal Khanjar silver.

So over-all I reckon mainly taken from a Royal Khanjar but used in Salalah and worn by the Jebali who straddle the border whose relatives are on both sides. It may also be from one of the other Bedu groups around there. Salalah for certain.

Heres a puzzle photo below from which some of the answers may be gleaned ~ I will post on The Omani Khanjar later ... This one is from the TRM(Tareq Rajeb Museum) in Kuwait. Not a common Omani style I have to say.... similar to one I have seen in Mussandam and other similarities with the classic form of Muscat Khanjar...and Royal variety.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Quite frankly I believe that you are completely off track with your comments that everything is from a Saidi Khanjar. Lofty in his post above (#12) states (and correctly) that the neck wrap is too big to be from a Saidi piece.
I will also point out again, that most Omani silver decoration is scroll type. This is NOT, apart from the scabbard toe.
You have , elsewhere, "positively" identified the subject piece as "habaabi or Asir", a distance apart of around 1000 km, and, also "Salalah", which is a further approx 1900 km due east from where you first identified this as being from. To put this in context, it must be remembered that until the end of WW1/WW2, there was very little known of Arabia, and travel overland would mostly have been by camel. Roads as we now know them just did not exist, so the liklihood of someone "sourcing" bits from these areas, so he could make a Khanjar is most unlikely in my opinion..
Now it appears that it is "positively" a stripped down Saidi Khanjar, or at least a Khanjar/Jambiya using most parts of one, and is likely of Omani origin.
Not all daggers and swords found in the Arabian Peninsula come from Oman, and in fact there are many, many, more styles which come from Yemen and Saudia.
I still believe that this Jambiya is either Yemeni/Saudia, or possibly (not positively), from the Salalah border areas with Yemen.
So we do not appear to be any further ahead.........

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Quite frankly I believe that you are completely off track with your comments that everything is from a Saidi Khanjar. Lofty in his post above (#12) states (and correctly) that the neck wrap is too big to be from a Saidi piece.
I will also point out again, that most Omani silver decoration is scroll type. This is NOT, apart from the scabbard toe.
You have , elsewhere, "positively" identified the subject piece as "habaabi or Asir", a distance apart of around 1000 km, and, also "Salalah", which is a further approx 1900 km due east from where you first identified this as being from. To put this in context, it must be remembered that until the end of WW1/WW2, there was very little known of Arabia, and travel overland would mostly have been by camel. Roads as we now know them just did not exist, so the liklihood of someone "sourcing" bits from these areas, so he could make a Khanjar is most unlikely in my opinion..
Now it appears that it is "positively" a stripped down Saidi Khanjar, or at least a Khanjar/Jambiya using most parts of one, and is likely of Omani origin.
Not all daggers and swords found in the Arabian Peninsula come from Oman, and in fact there are many, many, more styles which come from Yemen and Saudia.
I still believe that this Jambiya is either Yemeni/Saudia, or possibly (not positively), from the Salalah border areas with Yemen.
So we do not appear to be any further ahead.........

Salaams kahnjar1 No not quite...

In fact I am absolutely straight on track. These are the facts. Should I get it wrong the first time I have no problem in putting it right. I've done that.

Perhaps, however, we need to get something aired here...This Forum is designed with rules for good reason; as they say rules are 50% for you and 50% against. I believe that you are very much in the red zone with your post. Not only do you insult me but Forum and what onlookers must think about your performance I can only guess.

I have given good research time to your questions which too often have been degenerated by you into quite rediculous, confrontational, nonsense but I still provide the details as best I can..with my limited knowledge, fieldwork and hands on experience of many decades in this subject.

I believe you set this one up from the beginning of the thread..and another who joined you have compounded your disgraceful situation.

Let this serve as your last mischief directed toward me...or I shall simply ignore your posts. That way you will learn nothing and gain nothing from these important pages.

I therefor refer your completely juvenile post and the one previous at #15 to Moderator support for ruling and trust that you will refrain from such scurilous, insulting, stupid behaviour in future.

Facts to Forum Library ~As it happens this is a very diffficult nut to crack and even now I am at loggergheads even with my own team... and it reminded me of the difficulty of pinpointing these when I lived in Salalah for 6 years in the 80s. The fact is that the form is so close to call. On balance and despite the antagonism I will even say Saudia and on its border with Yemen in the category of Dagger called Habaabi by Omanis.

So finally though not without a huge load of too and fro ~ Habaabi. The Asir region. Saudi and on both sides of the border.... which is where I put it in the first place.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams kahnjar1 No not quite...

In fact I am absolutely straight on track. These are the facts. Should I get it wrong the first time I have no problem in putting it right. I've done that.

Perhaps, however, we need to get something aired here...This Forum is designed with rules for good reason; as they say rules are 50% for you and 50% against. I believe that you are very much in the red zone with your post. Not only do you insult me but Forum and what onlookers must think about your performance I can only guess.

I have given good research time to your questions which too often have been degenerated by you into quite rediculous, confrontational, nonsense but I still provide the details as best I can..with my limited knowledge, fieldwork and hands on experience of many decades in this subject.

I believe you set this one up from the beginning of the thread..and another who joined you have compounded your disgraceful situation.

Let this serve as your last mischief directed toward me...or I shall simply ignore your posts. That way you will learn nothing and gain nothing from these important pages.

I therefor refer your completely juvenile post and the one previous at #15 to Moderator support for ruling and trust that you will refrain from such scurilous, insulting, stupid behaviour in future.

Facts to Forum Library ~As it happens this is a very diffficult nut to crack and even now I am at loggergheads even with my own team... and it reminded me of the difficulty of pinpointing these when I lived in Salalah for 6 years in the 80s. The fact is that the form is so close to call. On balance and despite the antagonism I will even say Saudia and on its border with Yemen in the category of Dagger called Habaabi by Omanis.

So finally though not without a huge load of too and fro ~ Habaabi. The Asir region. Saudi and on both sides of the border.... which is where I put it in the first place.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,
Let me correct you if I may. #15 post is NOT MINE. With respect, I suggest that you level your comments at the right person.
Regards Stuart

[Jim McDougall]

I must confess that khanjhars/janbiyya are not particularly a field of interest of mine, but I do very much appreciate the efforts to study these weapons from Arabia constructively in threads here. In the case of this thread, I admit it really held my interest up to a point, until personalities and veiled comments (and some outwardly not so) permeated the posts revealing the suspiciously specious nature of this entire thread, how disappointing.
While I personally am well aware of the unfortunately strained circumstances present between you, I would implore you to move forward with caution in any further entries as the demeanor has clearly seen to focus on those issues rather than constructive discourse.
C'mon guys, we're here to learn and better than this! and all of you really know a lot on these weapons. Can we just leave the barbs out of the dialogue?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I must confess that khanjhars/janbiyya are not particularly a field of interest of mine, but I do very much appreciate the efforts to study these weapons from Arabia constructively in threads here. In the case of this thread, I admit it really held my interest up to a point, until personalities and veiled comments (and some outwardly not so) permeated the posts revealing the suspiciously specious nature of this entire thread, how disappointing.
While I personally am well aware of the unfortunately strained circumstances present between you, I would implore you to move forward with caution in any further entries as the demeanor has clearly seen to focus on those issues rather than constructive discourse.
C'mon guys, we're here to learn and better than this! and all of you really know a lot on these weapons. Can we just leave the barbs out of the dialogue?

Salaams Jim McDougall..I thank you for your post.

It is always very interesting to be confronted with the occasional mission impossible to identify an object which seems to defy logic and throws the search this way and that...I for one have been wrong footed a couple of times in cracking this particular nut. I start again by reiterating the last paragraph in my previous post ~

As it happens this is a very diffficult nut to crack and even now I am at loggergheads even with my own team... and it reminded me of the difficulty of pinpointing these when I lived in Salalah for 6 years in the 80s. The fact is that the form is so close to call. On balance and despite the antagonism I will even say Saudia and on its border with Yemen in the category of Dagger called Habaabi by Omanis.

So finally though not without a huge load of too and fro ~ Habaabi. The Asir region. Saudi and on both sides of the border.... which is where I put it in the first place.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I must confess that khanjhars/janbiyya are not particularly a field of interest of mine, but I do very much appreciate the efforts to study these weapons from Arabia constructively in threads here. In the case of this thread, I admit it really held my interest up to a point, until personalities and veiled comments (and some outwardly not so) permeated the posts revealing the suspiciously specious nature of this entire thread, how disappointing.
While I personally am well aware of the unfortunately strained circumstances present between you, I would implore you to move forward with caution in any further entries as the demeanor has clearly seen to focus on those issues rather than constructive discourse.
C'mon guys, we're here to learn and better than this! and all of you really know a lot on these weapons. Can we just leave the barbs out of the dialogue?

First, there is no need to assume that this thread was made for a purpose other then discussing the origin of this particular item.

I have posted the 3 second video knowing and meaning what it represent. There is no need to blame anything on Stu. What I meant by the video is just that, a facepalm. I have replied showing 2 daggers from Saudi of which the reply to came "they are not Omani" with all due respect that facepalm video is the least one can do to such a silly reply. If you are offended by it then so be it.

Both me and Stu post items for discussion and welcome Ibrahim's opinions but he should have the decency NOT to consider his opinions as facts. Some of the stuff he says defy logic but its pushed every topic as sacred fact and that is extremely frustrating.

[Jim McDougall]

Points well taken Lofty, and duly noted. As I had suggested, lets keep the discussion focused on material at hand and observations accordingly. I also think we can offer rebuttal to anyones observations with constructive support without derisive context. I think it is pretty much generally held that any observation or theory is subject to opposing views and new or often conflicting evidence regardless of whether it is perceived as fact or compellingly plausible. In my opinion the courtesy is incumbent on the manner in which that is achieved.
I very much appreciate the items posted and learned input of everyone here, and as noted, think we can keep discussions more helpful without the derisively textured comments.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All Note to Forum See The Omani Khanjar #17. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=1&pp=30

Below are placed more references showing the style of weapon from The Asir region.. Oddly these daggers are called Habaabi in Oman and although this may be because of sea trade (Muscat Yemen Zanzibar) it is still a point shrouded in mystery. Hababi is a city SOUTH WEST of Ta'izz well to the South of the Asir and in Yemen..About midway between Ta'izz and the Red Sea.

The indicators are that this dagger is worn on both sides of the border in Yemen and Saudia. That region was recently (about 1920) absorbed into Saudia from what was then North Yemen.

It is noted that these daggers are very similar in design to Omani Khanjars of several styles including The Muscat Khanjar and The Royal Omani Khanjar.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesfred/5512947198

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/4336633417

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesfred/5780340287

http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlesfred/5780340299

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/4318547823

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the additional references and observations Ibrahiim. It seems to me that efforts to 'pidgeon hole' classification terminology with most ethnographic weapon forms becomes terribly vague altogether too often.
Clearly certain forms develop within certain cultures and over time develop varying characteristics with different influences diffused into them. Through trade and cultural and geopolitical flux it becomes more and more difficult to classify examples to particular regions with absolute certainty.

One of the greatest banes of ethnographic study has always, as far as I have known, been the 'name game', and often it becomes necessary to add, in my opinion, qualifying detail to descriptions. I think one of the fascinating things about Arabian weapons, like many other cultures, is the varying locally used terms for certain weapons. Until a few years ago, I had always assumed the familiar daggers which I know now are khanjhars, were all called janbiyyas. Clearly, in local parlances there are many terms used to define these further, and until reading this thread I had no idea of the term 'habaabi' for a particular form of khanjhar.

I would think that with modified examples, traded items, custom or variant pieces and so forth with a traditionally contemporary item such as these, it would be difficult to classify many examples finitely within a certain regional classification. This would especially be the case when the example is obviously an amalgam of features from varying established types.
Though it is sometimes troublesome for many to use compound descriptions to accurately classify such weapons, it seems to me the only responsible and viable approach.

In all, good learning exercise here everybody, its good to keep the learning curve moving!