Evidence for fake Moro Kris / Keris Sundang?

Rick · 1st August 2005, 01:46 AM

Hi Kai,

My best guess on the Visayan example you presented a link to is that it is indeed a Moro blade in Visayan dress .
Unfortunately the picture is miniscule .

Rick

Spunjer · 1st August 2005, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Here is (IMNSHO) another Indian one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=7335765380

yup, that's the same exact one like mine, down to the scabbard...

here's an example of a visayan kris:

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1300.

zelbone would be the man to answer your questions

...

zamboanga · 1st August 2005, 12:06 PM

Hi everyone,

Been away from the forum for some due to a local dengue outbreak and a typhoon (that's 3rd world conditions for you.)

here's my question: if kris cutlery krises were to be available in the local market (here in zamboanga, basilan or jolo) will the tausugs buy them and keep them as they would a locally-made kris? i really doubt it. they would not even buy a yakan-made pira, how much more for a christian made reproduction.

kai, as to your question on whether there are newly made krises with separate gangyas, yes there are and the ones i have seen come from jolo and not basilan.

as to the datus, they would commission a kris or a barong whether times were good or bad. for a good sword is a status symbol and nothing is as important to a moro as showing of his status.

kai · 1st August 2005, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamboanga

kai, as to your question on whether there are newly made krises with separate gangyas, yes there are and the ones i have seen come from jolo and not basilan.

Thanks, that's important news! Do you have by any chance pics of these which you could post? Any tell-tale signs for these? TIA!

Regards,
Kai

Federico · 5th August 2005, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamboanga

kai, as to your question on whether there are newly made krises with separate gangyas, yes there are and the ones i have seen come from jolo and not basilan.

Would also be interested in seeing pics. Ive seen some pretty nice post WWII kris (ivory, pamor, etc...) come from Sulu, but none with separate gangyas. But then Ive seen alot of what I thought, and others (like Cecil Quirino) had thought re-hilted blades, old blade new Tausug fittings. Then I suppose we may have all been in the dark.

zamboanga · 6th August 2005, 04:29 AM

From a friend's collection and not for sale. Newly made sulu piece specially commissioned for a child.

Separate gangya. 15.5 inches blade, 21 inches overall. with silver fittings.

It has a larger brother which I hope to have in due time.

I also have an older one (post ww2) with separate gangya but i cannot post it here in deference to forum rules.

Federico · 6th August 2005, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamboanga

From a friend's collection and not for sale. Newly made sulu piece specially commissioned for a child.

Separate gangya. 15.5 inches blade, 21 inches overall. with silver fittings.

It has a larger brother which I hope to have in due time.

I also have an older one (post ww2) with separate gangya but i cannot post it here in deference to forum rules.

Thanks for the pics. I noticed this one and the older one both have separation lines that end a little steeper than the 45 degrees we normally associate with 19th early 20th century pieces, almost 90 degrees. Now this brings to question, is this a re-emergence of the separate gangya, or did they never dissappear. Why the loss of the separate gangya for some? Any more info behind these swords?

zamboanga · 8th August 2005, 04:09 AM

Concerning modern made Sulu krises, I understand that among the questions a mananasal (smith) asks an owner when commissioning a kris is whether if it is for show or for use . If it is for show, a separate gangya is produced - much like the boy's kris shown. But there are of course many other options depending on the request of the owner.

Which leads me to the question : how will a good kris with a separate gangya stand-up to a direct blow (to the gangya) from a good barong?

ThePepperSkull · 23rd July 2010, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamboanga

Hi everyone,

Been away from the forum for some due to a local dengue outbreak and a typhoon (that's 3rd world conditions for you.)

here's my question: if kris cutlery krises were to be available in the local market (here in zamboanga, basilan or jolo) will the tausugs buy them and keep them as they would a locally-made kris? i really doubt it. they would not even buy a yakan-made pira, how much more for a christian made reproduction.

kai, as to your question on whether there are newly made krises with separate gangyas, yes there are and the ones i have seen come from jolo and not basilan.

as to the datus, they would commission a kris or a barong whether times were good or bad. for a good sword is a status symbol and nothing is as important to a moro as showing of his status.

Is this a statement on the quality of the pira or the region being innapropriate/not native to the blade shape? I was under the impression that the Pira was a native blade to the Yakan. At least I see a lot of older Yakan-made Pira.

kai · 23rd July 2010, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Is this a statement on the quality of the pira or the region being innapropriate/not native to the blade shape?

Sorrily, Caloy hasn't been active for quite a long time, so I'll try to answer: A Tausug would prefer a Tausug piece rather than a sword perceived to be typical for another ethnic group (e. g. Yakan).

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 24th July 2010, 02:32 AM

Also, the reproduction/non-traditionally made ones do not interest the Moros today.

ThePepperSkull · 25th July 2010, 05:12 PM

Noted. Thank you kai and battara!

technically the pira I own is not a reproduction, however. It's not the nicest piece in terms of finishing, either, but it is traditionally made and it's a great conversation piece. No power tools were used to make it, which in the Phillippines is a very very rare thing. Grind marks from sharpening on a stone can still be seen in fact.

I am diverting from the topic at hand, however. I apologise. perhaps I may begin a new conversation about this at a later time.

(Does Caloy have an E-mail address that I may contact him with? I would love to get his perspective on various things. Someone let me know please and thanks!)

I do think a lot of this discussion begs the question: "What do you consider a fake"? We have all discussed various definitions: low-quality blades made to be buried in the dirt to speed up some artificial patination, Modern-made blades made outside of the appropriate culture, anriques refitted with more luxuious materials in addition to a forced patination. Which is a definition of 'fake' that most of us can agree upon? I think (if there are any willing participants) we can have a more enriched (or at least more streamlined) discussion about Fakes if we can find time to define the term in one specific way (or multiple specific ways even, so as not to be vague in our discussion) so we have a point of reference.

kai · 1st August 2005, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

here's an example of a visayan kris:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1300.

Hi Spunjer,

That's an example of those blades which I don't consider to be Kris (nor Keris Sundang). It's a nice Sundang/sword with a wavy blade but IMHO it doesn't have any of the characteristic features of a Moro Kris.

Regards,
Kai

Spunjer · 2nd August 2005, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Hi Spunjer,

That's an example of those blades which I don't consider to be Kris (nor Keris Sundang). It's a nice Sundang/sword with a wavy blade but IMHO it doesn't have any of the characteristic features of a Moro Kris.

Regards,
Kai

well then, i think this thread might interest you

:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001969.html

6th August 2005, 04:29 AM	#6
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	Newly made boy's kris From a friend's collection and not for sale. Newly made sulu piece specially commissioned for a child. Separate gangya. 15.5 inches blade, 21 inches overall. with silver fittings. It has a larger brother which I hope to have in due time. I also have an older one (post ww2) with separate gangya but i cannot post it here in deference to forum rules. Attached Images

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1st August 2005, 01:46 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Hi Kai, My best guess on the Visayan example you presented a link to is that it is indeed a Moro blade in Visayan dress . Unfortunately the picture is miniscule . Rick

1st August 2005, 12:06 PM	#3
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	Hi everyone, Been away from the forum for some due to a local dengue outbreak and a typhoon (that's 3rd world conditions for you.) here's my question: if kris cutlery krises were to be available in the local market (here in zamboanga, basilan or jolo) will the tausugs buy them and keep them as they would a locally-made kris? i really doubt it. they would not even buy a yakan-made pira, how much more for a christian made reproduction. kai, as to your question on whether there are newly made krises with separate gangyas, yes there are and the ones i have seen come from jolo and not basilan. as to the datus, they would commission a kris or a barong whether times were good or bad. for a good sword is a status symbol and nothing is as important to a moro as showing of his status.

8th August 2005, 04:09 AM	#8
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	Concerning modern made Sulu krises, I understand that among the questions a mananasal (smith) asks an owner when commissioning a kris is whether if it is for show or for use . If it is for show, a separate gangya is produced - much like the boy's kris shown. But there are of course many other options depending on the request of the owner. Which leads me to the question : how will a good kris with a separate gangya stand-up to a direct blow (to the gangya) from a good barong?

24th July 2010, 02:32 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,325	Also, the reproduction/non-traditionally made ones do not interest the Moros today.

25th July 2010, 05:12 PM	#12
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Noted. Thank you kai and battara! technically the pira I own is not a reproduction, however. It's not the nicest piece in terms of finishing, either, but it is traditionally made and it's a great conversation piece. No power tools were used to make it, which in the Phillippines is a very very rare thing. Grind marks from sharpening on a stone can still be seen in fact. I am diverting from the topic at hand, however. I apologise. perhaps I may begin a new conversation about this at a later time. (Does Caloy have an E-mail address that I may contact him with? I would love to get his perspective on various things. Someone let me know please and thanks!) I do think a lot of this discussion begs the question: "What do you consider a fake"? We have all discussed various definitions: low-quality blades made to be buried in the dirt to speed up some artificial patination, Modern-made blades made outside of the appropriate culture, anriques refitted with more luxuious materials in addition to a forced patination. Which is a definition of 'fake' that most of us can agree upon? I think (if there are any willing participants) we can have a more enriched (or at least more streamlined) discussion about Fakes if we can find time to define the term in one specific way (or multiple specific ways even, so as not to be vague in our discussion) so we have a point of reference.