THE REPUTATION OF THE KRIS WOULD HAVE GROWN AND THEN WOULD HAVE SPREAD
TO SOME INDIVIDUALS IN OTHER AREAS AND GROUPS.
BASED ON THIS I WILL PUT IN SOME PICTURES
OF SOME VARIATIONS WITH A FEW
OBSERVATIONS AND SEE WHAT THE KRIS SCOLARS THINK. IT SHOULD BE FUN. (wink)

THE FIRST PICTURE WILL BE OF A KRIS I ATTRIBUTE TO A VISAYAN ORIGIN.
THE BLADE IS 17.5 INCH L. BY 1.25 INCH WIDE. TOTAL LEGNTH IS 22.75 INCH.
THE DESIGN CARVED IN THE WOOD HANDLE DOSEN'T LOOK MORO AND SORT OF
RESEMBLES SOME OF THE DESIGNS USED ON SOME OF THE WOOD VISAYAN
SCABBARDS WHERE THE CARRYING CORD IS ATTACHED. THERE IS NO FERRULE
OR CLAMPS BUT THE BLADE IS VERY SECURE, IT APPEARS TO HAVE THE
SHORT MORO STYLE RECTANGULAR TANG. THE BLADE IS FOLDED AND DOSEN'T
HAVE A SEPARATE GANJA, NOTE THE ARING IS FORMED INTO A RING AT THE END
OF THE GRENENG (FRETWORK). THE SCABBARD HAS A BOAT SHAPED UPPER PORTION (WRANGKA)
THAT IS LOOSELY ATTACHED TO THE LOWER PART (GANDAR) WITH A SORT OF TRIANGULAR
JOINT. THIS ALLOWS IT TO REMAIN LOOSE BUT KEEPS IT FROM COMING OFF. IT
ALSO HAS THE TURNED UP TIP TO THE SCABBARD AS THE EXAMPLE IN LEES
MORO SWORD POST. THERE ARE METAL BANDS ON THE SCABBARD AND A
LEATHER CHAPE AT THE TOP AS SEEN ON MANY VISAYAN BOLOS. THE CLOTH
CARRING STRAP IS ATTACHED AT THE BACK BY ONE OF THE METAL BANDS. NOTE I
AM USING TERMS THAT APPLY TO KERIS TO DESCRIBE SOME OF THE
FEATURES LACKING THEIR MORO EQUVILENTS.

THE SECOND EXAMPLE I HAVE ALWAYS SUSPECTED OF BEING OF MALAY ORIGIN.
I HAVE NO PROOF OR PROVENANCE AND LACKING A SCABBARD HAVE LESS TO GO ON.
IT IS 26 5/8 INCH LONG, BLADE 21 1/4 X 1 3/8 ". THE GRIP IS
COVERED WITH VERY WELL DECORATED BRASS WITH ONE VERY NICELY DECORATED
BACA BACA STRAP. IT DOES HAVE A SEPARATE GANJA AND HAS THE DECORATIVE
GROOVES IN THE BLADE ALMOST TO THE TIP. THE FRETWORK IS UNUSUAL
ESPECIALLY IN THE AREA OF THE GAJAH (ELEPHANTS TRUNK).THE BLADE APPEARS
TO HAVE A INTERESTING PATTERN BUT HAS NEVER BEEN STAINED SO ITS
NOT POSSIBLE TO SEE IT VERY WELL. THE WOOD COCATUA POMMEL IS A BIT
DIFFERENT AND HAS A NICE PATINA, WEAR WOULD INDICATE AGE
AND ACTUAL USE.

[This message has been edited by Lee Jones (edited 01-24-2004).]

[This message has been edited by VANDOO (edited 02-23-2004).]

[This message has been edited by VANDOO (edited 02-23-2004).]

I'm looking forward to seeing some of your kris variants. There is no doubt that many non-Muslim groups also adopted the kris in Mindanao, and probably elsewhere in the Philippines. Today, there are probably more Filipinos of Visayan heritage living in Mindanao than there are Muslims, tribes of the Lumad or other cultural groups. Since WWII there has been a tremendous increase in Visayan immigration, especially during the time of President Marcos, with a predominance today of Christian Filipinos in Mindanao.

UNFORTUNATELY MY KERIS EITHER HAVE NO PROVENANCE OR DUBIOUS PROVENANCE
AT BEST. WHAT IS NEEDED IS PROVENANCED EXAMPLES FROM WHICH
COMAPARISONS CAN BE MADE. EVEN THE ONES IN MUSEUMS HAVE INCOMPLETE
PROVENANCE, USUALLY THAT IT WAS COLLECTED BY SO AND SO AT A CERTIAN
LOCATION AND DATE. OR PERHAPS PRESENTED BY DATU OR VIZIER OR SOME
SUCH TO SOME DIGNITARY ON SUCH AND SUCH DATE AND PLACE. IT WOULD BE
NICE TO KNOW WHO MADE IT, WHEN AND WHERE SO THE GROUP COULD BE POSITIVELY
IDENTIFIED.
TO COMPLICATE IT FURTHER SOME KERIS MAY BE MADE SOMEWHERE
ELSE AND CAPTURED OR PRESENTED TO A DATU OF ANOTHER GROUP WHO
IN TURN GIVES IT TO SOMEONE ELSE AND BLADES WERE OFTEN REMOUNTED.
THE ONLY WAY I KNOW TO BE SURE AND GET COMPLETE PROVENANCE IS
TO GO TO THE BEST SMITH IN A TRIBAL VILLAGE AND COMISSION A SWORD
THEN HANG OUT UNTIL IT IS READY AND RECORD ALL THE NAMES AND INFORMATION.

IN MY IMAGINATION I CAN SEE A POOR REFUGEE PANDAY FROM JAVA OR MALAYSIA
TRYING TO SELL THE TRADITIONAL KERIS DAGGER TO MORO WARRIORS WHO LIKED
BIG SWORDS. IN ORDER TO FEED HIS FAMILY HE WOULD HAVE TO FASHION
SOMETHING NEW AND COME UP WITH A GREAT SALES TALK INVOLVING MAGIC
AND INVINCIBILITY. HIS BLADES WOULD HAVE TO BE CAPABLE OF GOING UP
AGAINST THE LARGE KAMPILIANS AND MANDAUS AND VARIOUS PRANGS WITHOUT
HAVING THEIR BLADES BROKEN OR TANGS SNAPPED OFF. SO IT WOULD PROBABLY
HAVE STARTED OFF WITH THE WATERED STEEL TYPE BLADES INSTEAD OF THE
TRADITIONAL PAMOR KERIS BLADES. I WOULD THINK IT WOULD ALSO BE
EASIER, LESS EXPENSIVE AND FASTER TO MAKE A LARGE BLADE OF WATERED
STEEL (FOLDED) HE WOULD THEN PRESENT ONE TO THE MOST FIERCE WARRIORS
HOPEING THEY WOULD USE THEM WELL.

THE OTHER POSSIBILITY WHICH IS MORE LIKELY IS THAT SOME RULER GAVE
A PANDAY TO SOME OTHER RULER AND HE INSTRUCTED THE PANDAY TO
MAKE WHAT HE REQUIRED AND THE KERIS EVOLVED INTO THE MORO FORM KRIS.
(CONJECTURE AND WILD SPECULATION MY SPECIALITY )

[This message has been edited by VANDOO (edited 02-23-2004).]

For reference to a similar non-kampilan sword see Van Zonneveld's Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago pps.135-136 Sword of Tanimbar .

Ian, good to have you back from "down under!" I know you have an interesting kris with Visayan traits as well. You should post pics to compare with Vandoo's.

1

2a

2b

And this one is probably from the Tagakaolo (Kaolu) who live on Mt Apo close to Davao City:

3a

3b

You're right about the recently produced examples that find their way into the "antique" shops of Manila and on to eBay. I had not heard about children wearing them around to give the impression of prior use -- seems very plausible.

Of the three I have shown, the first is definitely not a Moro blade, but produced crudely by a local craftsman and has never been used as far as I can tell from its appearance. I show this one because the pommel with its bulbous end is typical of the Bagobo kris variants.

The second one also has a bulbous pommel but this one has a distinctly Moro blade that is fairly slim and shows distinct lamination. The two-piece gangya shows considerable wear and the edge has seen some use. I believe this is probably a 19th C blade that found its way into the hands of a Bagobo warrior. The hilt and scabbard are considerably more recent but show some wear. The carved bone pommel also shows some age.

The last one is a recent concoction of a cast metal hilt decorated in a crude fashion in a manner that sort of resembles T'boli or Bagobo designs, with a blade that may have been of Moro construction. It actually has a two-piece gangya that is not clear in the photographs, but is missing asang asang. The blade is quite dark and pitted, and does not seem to have been used much. I hesitate to say how old the blade may be, but the hilt and scabbard are quite recent.

I apologise for the shadows on some of these which make viewing the details a little difficult.

Ian.

I AM SURE THIS
COPYING HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A LONG TIME DUE TO THE REPUTATION
OF THE KRIS ANY WHO HEARD OF IT WOULD HAVE WANTED ONE.
SO IN DISCUSSING THE VARIATIONS IT DOSEN'T REALLY MATTER
WHAT THE AGE IS AS LONG AS IT STILL HAS SOME CONNECTION TO
THE PEOPLE IN ITS SPHERE OF INFLUENCE. SO A RECENTLY MADE
EXAMPLE FROM PANAY WOULD QUALIFY BUT A EXAMPLE MADE
IN NEW YORK WOULD NOT UNLESS IT WAS MADE BY A FELLOW WHO
LEARNED HOW IN THE PHILIPPINES AND THEN EMIGRATED.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY WHAT, WHEN AND WHERE
THE CURRENT COPYS,REPLICAS AND FAKES ARE BEING MADE ALSO.
BECAUSE IN 100 YEARS OR SO THEY MAY BE VALUABLE TO COLLECTORS ALSO.
ITS A LOT EASIER TO PIN DOWN WHAT IS STILL BEING MADE TODAY
AS TO PROVENANCE THAN A KRIS FROM THE 1800'S.

MY EXAMPLES
BOTH HAVE AGE THE FIRST EXAMPLE I SUSPECT OF BEING SOMEWHERE
AROUND WW1 VINTAGE AND TO HAVE SEEN ACTUAL USE. THE TIP OF THE
SCABBARD BEING TURNED UP IS ONE OF THE STRONGER
INDICATIONS OF A VISAYAN ORIGIN AND THE SHAPE AND
CARVEING OF THE HANDLE. I DON'T THINK THE HIDE CHAPE IS
AS OLD AS THE REST OF THE MATERIALS BUT IT IS DIFFICULT TO
TELL WITH THIS KIND OF MATERIAL AS IT IS NOT PROPERLY
TANNED LEATHER BUT MORE LIKE MUMMIFIED HIDE. AHA! A EGYPTIAN
INFLUENCE JUST KIDDING.

MY SECOND EXAMPLE IS OLDER STILL AND VERY WELL MADE AND
WOULD HAVE BELONGED TO SOMEONE OF IMPORTANCE. IT
IS MOST LIKELY FROM THE 1800'S BUT THAT IS JUST MY BEST GUESS
AS I CAN ONLY GO BY THE FEEL OF THE KRIS. PERHAPS ZELBONE
CAN ADD HIS IMPRESSIONS OF THEM AS HE HAS SEEN THEM
BOTH.
I PREFER TO COLLECT GOOD OLD EXAMPLES OF WEAPONS THAT
HAVE A HISTORY AND SAW ACTUAL USE DURING INTERESTING
PERIODS IN THEIR PEOPLES HISTORY. BUT I AM ALSO INTERESTED
IN WHAT HAS BEEN MADE BY THOSE PEOPLES SINCE THOSE
TIMES EVEN IF IT WAS ONLY MADE FOR CEREMONY,
PRESENTATION OR TO FLOGG TO THE TOURISTS

[This message has been edited by VANDOO (edited 02-02-2004).]

THE FABRICS AND DESIGNS IN THAT
PART OF THE WORLD WERE VERY IMPORTANT. THEY IDENTIFIED THE TRIBES
JUST AS THE TARTANS OF SCOTLAND IDENTIFIED THE CLANS. BUT IT
WENT MUCH FARTHER THAN THAT, THEY WERE NECESSARY FOR CEREMONYS
AND THUS THE WELL BEING OF THE TRIBE AS WELL. SO A LITTLE OLD
LADY WHO WAS A TRIBAL WEAVER WOULD PROBABLY KNOW MORE ABOUT WHAT
THE PATTERN ON A SWORD HANDLE STOOD FOR THAN WE DO TODAY WITH
ALL OUR BOOKS.

Second kris, because of the little florette type engraving on the tip (ok my mind aint working right right now, so again I apologize for the nonsensical flavor of this post), may indicate Moro construction. Then again, there is some funky (geez I seem to like this word in this post) stuff going on in the guard area, more similar to Malay design. Also the clamp is of strange proportion. Then again maybe its the snow thats causing my brain not to function, I reserve the right to change my opinion when more clear-headed.

I did hear somewhere (I cant remember where), that lumad tribes in Mindanao traded for their steel implements from Moro groups, and lacked the supplies (raw iron for example) due to Moro strangleholds on coastal trading to fabricate steel weaponry. Hence the similarity in form to many Moro weapons, most notably the spears. Then again, since I cant remember where I saw it, there is a good chance that this tid-bit came from some 100 year old article full of mis-conceptions, thereby rendering this information utterly useless.

There is a faint inscription on the gangya that may be written in the old Tagalog script, suggesting that this sword might be quite old (at least 19th C.). Can anyone read the inscription?

Ian.

The same can be said of Ian's kris. It too has a distinct Visayan flavor about it...especially in the scabbard. But the large octagonal ferrule is distincly Visayan. The clamp setup is similar to my kris, but the hilt is Visayan. The pommel does look very similar to a small Moro kakatua pommel, but it more resembles a Visayan knob pommel found on a tenegres/binagons of Panay and Negros, as well as some knob pommels on talibons.

(pre-WWII talibon from Leyte or Samar,tenegre from Panay,dagger from Panay)

Plus, I've seen metal strips attached to these hilts as well. I do see the writing on the gangya, but I really can't tell if it is alibata...wish I could help here, but it's not that clear in the photo. Cool sword, Ian!

As for Barry second kris, the first thing that came to mind when both LabanTayo and I saw it is that it isn't Moro, but Malay. The execution of the fittings and the blade definately had more of a Malay flavor than Moro. Handling it also felt weird...it didn't feel like a Moro kris. The night Shelley (LabanTayo) and I met Barry and saw this sword, Barry had brought other Moro krises as well to compare, and I brought a few as well. One thing I noticed was that the blade was much thinner than the other Moro swords and the dynamics of how it felt was different as well. Maybe it was just Barry's sword, but Shelley had picked up a Malay sundang recently and it too doesn't have the same feel as a Moro kris. Shelley's sundang also has a thinner blade...almost wispy. Maybe I'm just weird (okay, I know I'm weird ) but a Moro kris just feels different in the hand...like it wants to cut something bad.

I think you're right about there being too many of these examples for this style to just be a makeshift repair. And silver is too an expensive material to be cobbling your hilt together as a make do arrangement. This seems like a deliberate attempt to decorate the hilt and be functional at the same time.

The sword is one of my favorites and I thought I had sold it or lost it sometime ago, but it popped up under a pile of other things this weekend. Oldtimer's disease is catching up fast.

BTW that six leaf design on the sampir is something I have seen on other Visayan swords, notably talibon scabbards that I thought probably came from the eastern Visayas (Cebu, Samar or Leyte). Anyone else have an idea about this design?

Ian.

MY NEXT EXAMPLE IS LARGER AND HEAVIER THAN THE USUAL KRIS ITS BLADE
IS 24" L X 2 1/4" W.
28 1/2 ' OVERALL. IT HAS NO SCABBARD. THE HANDLE
IS VERY PLAIN AND MAY BE A OLD REPLACEMENT IT IS ATTACHED WITH ONE
BRASS STRAP HOLDING ONE BACA BACA. THE WAVEY BLADE IS WATERED STEEL AND
HAS DESIGNS CUT INTO IT INLAYED WITH SILVER?. IT MAY BE A
DRAGON OR FLAMES AND HAS A SMALL DESIGN IN THE CENTER THAT LOOKS
LIKE A FLOWER WITH 4 PETALS.IT MIGHT REPRESENT A FIRE PEARL
WHICH IS SOMETHING DRAGONS OFTEN PERSUE. ONE INTERESTING FEATURE
THAT SHELLY POINTED OUT ABOUT THIS EXAMPLE IS THAT EVIDENTLY THE WARRIOR
WHO USED THIS KRIS USED ONE EDGE TO PARRY WITH QUITE A BIT
THIS IS OBVIOUS FROM THE SWORD KNICKS IN THE BLADE. WHICH ARE ONLY
ON THE ONE SIDE. ITS ON THE EDGE WHERE THE GRENENG (FRETWORK)
IS, THAT IS THE SIDE USED AS A GAURD WHEN FIGHTING. THIS KRIS WOULD REQUIRE
A LOT OF MUSCLE TO SLING IN BATTLE.

[This message has been edited by Lee Jones (edited 02-22-2004).]

Ian.

HERE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE IT IS A MORO BLADE WITH A BALI HANDLE AND A SILVER MEDAK/SELUT.
IT HAS ONE BACA BACA AND A WOOD BALINESE GOD HANDLE. THE WATERED STEEL BLADE HAS
FULLERS ALMOST TO THE TIP AND ONE FULLER HAS A FORGEING FLAW SO THAT YOU CAN SEE THRU
THE BLADE IN 2 PLACES. THE HANDLE AND
SELUT LOOKS TO HAVE BEEN WITH THE
BLADE FOR QUITE A WHILE.

THE NEXT EXAMPLE IS FROM ZAMBOANGA DON'T KNOW WHEN IT WAS MADE,
BUT IT CAME TO THE USA IN 1946. IT IS 26.5" TOTAL IN SCABBARD,BLADE
IS 20.5" L X 1 7/8" W. IT HAS A VERY NICE WATERED STEEL PATTERN BLADE WITH A SEPARATE GANJA. THE SOGOKAN (ARROWHEAD) CUT IN WITH A DESIGN AT TIP THEN A SPACE AND A DESIGN CUT INTO BLADE AND A FULLER DOWN THE CENTER TO NEAR THE TIP WHERE THERE IS ANOTHER DESIGN CUT INTO THE BLADE. IT HAS A WHITE METAL
BAND JUST BELOW THE POMELL AND A FERRULE AND 2 BACA BACA.THE GRIP IS WRAPED WITH BLACK CORD AND THERE IS MOP AT THE POMMEL AND AT THE TOP AND TIP OF THE SCABBARD.

Of the two you posted most recently, the top one could be a Balinese blade and hilt in a Moro scabbard. I'm surprised how close the Balinese and Moro blades can be. If it is a Moro blade, it is an early form. The tang wuild probably tell us one way or the other: in general, Balinese tangs are thin and rounded, Moro tangs are flat and broader. I like this sword.

The bottom one looks like a 20th C. sword in late 20th C. dress. The MOP, the median ridge and the rattan wrap on the scabbard all speak to WWII or later manufacture. Very nice pattern on the blade. The okir engraving also looks 20th C.

Since we've been discussing Visayan hilted Moro krises on this thread and a few others I thought I'd post pics of my Visayan kris that is totally Visayan. The blade isn't a cut down Moro blade, but a full length "kris" type blade with no gangya and fretwork. The scabbard is typical Visayan/Panay and the hilt is a long nosed bakunawa diety hilt. I've also included a couple old Visayan kris daggers for comparison. The one in the middle has a silver ferrule and S-guard and spiral-cut kamagong hilt. The blade is very sinuous and does have a talismanic "punch" engraving on the ricasso. The scabbard is typical Visayan with sheets of horn around it, but some are missing. The bottom dagger is a Visayan kris dagger with an iron ferrule and crossguard and carabao hilt. It's not evident in the photo, but the ferrule on this one is brazed together with brass.

Tom, you mention that you don't like the term "Visayan knob handle" to refer to the simple plain rounded hilts of the Visayas. I will try to find the proper term for such hilts, but you say that they are clearly a simplified kakatua (cockatoo) hilt. I could see where you are coming from and to a degree I agree with you, but on the islands of Panay and Negros, the "knob" hilt is a simplified anamorphic version of the diety/bakunawa/naga hilt form, not the cockatoo. Here's a couple of pics of a "knob" hilt tenegre with a bakunawa hilt tenegre to compare.