Orientation of the grip of this keris

David · 23rd November 2008, 06:31 AM

For me it is not a question as to whether the keris or even the proto-keris were or could be used in an overhand stabbing action. What we are talking about is the keris at hand in this thread. All of the proto-keris in these reliefs have an upright handle as far as i know. The angled handle presented in this thread and common to the other bugis keris that we are discussing with "reversed" hilts presents a completely different challenge if we consider using the "ice pick" grip for an overhand stab. I think that both Alan and Jussi are absolutely correct. We will never know exactly how the keris and proto-keris were used in the past and certainly more than one grip is a possibility. But i think the question in this thread must remain specific to this type of angled hilt, not the upright hilts of the proto-keris or other upright hilts common to other keris. What i am suggesting is that everyone who has such a keris at hand try these various grips with the hilt in these different positions.. How does it feel? Which grip feels "right" to you? For me the "ice pick" grip with the "reversed" hilt is just a bit awkward, though it is usable. It feels uncomfortable in the hand though. Does this mean that it wasn't ever used? Not at all. We can only ask ourselves what is most likely based on practicality and what we know of these keris and the fighting styles that exist today.
Alan, you wrote: "I would suggest that a master of the keris, from the distant past, would not have limited himself to any single grip of his weapon, but would have possessed the virtuosity to adapt the grip to the circumstances." This may well be so, but if one is to fix a hilt in one position for battle, which would it be? This is not so much a problem with an upright hilt style, but with these angled hilts it is a different story. While i do find that the "ice pick" grip is workable with the hilt in a reverse position, it seems near impossible with the hilt in what has been assumed to be the "normal" position. Try it and see for yourself. The master might have the virtuosity to adapt the grip to different circumstances, but he would not be able to change the positions of a fixed hilt in the heat of battle if those circumstances changed.

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23rd November 2008, 06:31 AM	#17
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	For me it is not a question as to whether the keris or even the proto-keris were or could be used in an overhand stabbing action. What we are talking about is the keris at hand in this thread. All of the proto-keris in these reliefs have an upright handle as far as i know. The angled handle presented in this thread and common to the other bugis keris that we are discussing with "reversed" hilts presents a completely different challenge if we consider using the "ice pick" grip for an overhand stab. I think that both Alan and Jussi are absolutely correct. We will never know exactly how the keris and proto-keris were used in the past and certainly more than one grip is a possibility. But i think the question in this thread must remain specific to this type of angled hilt, not the upright hilts of the proto-keris or other upright hilts common to other keris. What i am suggesting is that everyone who has such a keris at hand try these various grips with the hilt in these different positions.. How does it feel? Which grip feels "right" to you? For me the "ice pick" grip with the "reversed" hilt is just a bit awkward, though it is usable. It feels uncomfortable in the hand though. Does this mean that it wasn't ever used? Not at all. We can only ask ourselves what is most likely based on practicality and what we know of these keris and the fighting styles that exist today. Alan, you wrote: "I would suggest that a master of the keris, from the distant past, would not have limited himself to any single grip of his weapon, but would have possessed the virtuosity to adapt the grip to the circumstances." This may well be so, but if one is to fix a hilt in one position for battle, which would it be? This is not so much a problem with an upright hilt style, but with these angled hilts it is a different story. While i do find that the "ice pick" grip is workable with the hilt in a reverse position, it seems near impossible with the hilt in what has been assumed to be the "normal" position. Try it and see for yourself. The master might have the virtuosity to adapt the grip to different circumstances, but he would not be able to change the positions of a fixed hilt in the heat of battle if those circumstances changed.