My first Nimcha

[serdar]

Thank you on answer TVV.

I was puzzled the first time i saw sword from Perast, becouse of the handle and guard, i didnt know that style of handle and guard that it originated in Italy, i thought it was a put together piece with a nice tale atached to it, like it is a famous saber of Vuk Mandusic in Criatia, husar saber from 18 century it is atributed to a fighter and public hero from 17 century.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by serdar

Thank you on answer TVV.

I was puzzled the first time i saw sword from Perast, becouse of the handle and guard, i didnt know that style of handle and guard that it originated in Italy, i thought it was a put together piece with a nice tale atached to it, like it is a famous saber of Vuk Mandusic in Criatia, husar saber from 18 century it is atributed to a fighter and public hero from 17 century.

Yeah, this one is quite interesting. Re:

Are there any closeups of the sword, and particularly the hilt?

[serdar]

Originally Posted by werecow

Yeah, this one is quite interesting. Re:

Are there any closeups of the sword, and particularly the hilt?

Yes, online, in museum it is positioned in that way that it is imppsible to take picture of the sword....

And description of the sword, translaten from Croatian.

"That sword belonged to Dragon - Fire Wolf, a descendant of the despotic Branković family, and with the marriage of Katarina Branković, it became the property of the Zrinski family. According to this tradition, Petar Zrinski gave a sword to the people of Peraštan on 05/23/1654. year after the great victory of Peraštan over the Turks.

However, it is also assumed that the sword was made by craftsmen in one of the workshops in the Boka Kotorska area. This is corroborated by the coat of arms of the Rajković family of Perasca on the blade, to which the Stjepanović family also belonged, and according to some sources it belonged to Vukša Stjepanović from Perast."

I saw those style handles across italy museums, not many.

Sword has text on latin, and old church slavic language.

[werecow]

A very cool and interesting sword. I like that it has a straight backsword blade. And a wide one, too.

I knew that the nimcha/saif hilt style had not changed much since the 17th century from the Michiel de Ruyter one and similar examples, and I had heard about connections with the storta and other Italian sword types, but I was not aware that the hilt was such a 1:1 copy.

[serdar]

Yes it is, very nice sword.
Blade is gorgeous, when i first saw the sword i thought it is a nimcha handle i didnt know italians made those handles, after trip thru the italy and their museums i saw swords with the same hilts that are italian made.
Obviously italians made them and then they were also made elswere.

[gp]

Can you be more specific as to “ Italian” does not tell me anything….
That country started after Garibaldi


Were it the Venetians who ruled over the waves and Adria for quite some times or are we talking sword makers from other regions or cities?

[TVV]

The very interesting sword from Perast serdar shared with us is Montenegrin under Venetian control. The scabbard is reminiscent of schiavona scabbards.

The hilt is very similar to nimcha hilts and is from approximately the same time as De Ruyter's trophy nimcha and some other nimchas captured by the Spaniards in Oran. It is therefore difficult to tell with an absolute degree of certainty who copied who when it comes to the hilt.

The same hilt style also existed in Southern Arabia, where the Italian maritime republics had no real presence, and the most plausible explanation is an Ottoman connection.

[gp]

Originally Posted by TVV

The very interesting sword from Perast serdar shared with us is Montenegrin under Venetian control. .

Perast has a most interesting history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perast...20the%20harbor.

and I can recommend a visit. Quite many excellent sea captains came from the village and although not that big, its museum is most interesting
https://muzejikotor.me/en/home/perast-museum/

[fennec]

Originally Posted by TVV

When it comes to this type of guard, here is another sword with it and an English hanger blade. That one does look very Moroccan.

Hi mate, and sorry again for the time to answer (dont hesitate to send me an email in case someday you want to ask me something "important", sometimes I'm more reactiv...lol)

Well, it could be, I mean, at first look I would say that, and I was about, but actually I have serious doubt. The only thing that would made it moroccan for me is the origin of the blade, but even those ones where mount on algerian nimcha (trading, or tooken during battles). The hole on the pommel (I know I know, that could look funny as a factor of algerian origin, but this is very reccurent) and the guard lead me more to an algerian one.
Compare your sword to those ones. First picture, that was upper, you see that nimcha, for most of people, this could be a moroccan one, if we had no scabbard. Hopefully it is, and those models are good to proof that those geometry (handle, but also blade shape) was also common in algeria.

Second picture you can see the same blade mount on an algerian sword (typical handle shape, guard quillons a bit shaped like the "algerian" rosebud shape, a possible hole on the pommel that was filled later with that brass flower).

Two others are to illustrate that "flower" decoration scheme I've talked about before, concerning the wooden handle of your navy nimcha (ex Eric). Something very close applied here by koftgari on a flissa dagger. So ovioulsy made in kabyle area (as the scabbards of first picture btw).

[fennec]

Originally Posted by serdar

Didnt that style with half ring on a side originated from italy? And from them into maroco and algeria?
Below are pictures of italian sword from the end of 14 century with councile of ten marking from private collection, a photo from museum of Florence, and a photo of a sword from Perast, all italian made with tracable and documented history.

AGREED ! That what lead my last searches on the subject, that confirms those theories about an italian origin of the nimcha, for its guard, and maybe also the handle shape by inspiration, mix of cultures etc . because actually, nothing POPED in Italy like that... if venetians ans genoese where precursors in many shapes, styles, for blades and also mountings, it is firt of all because of their inspiration BY OTHER cultures they trade with for centuries... so, everything is a "circle"...).

Then, I dont think the nimcha is a direct inspiration like "oh see, those nice italian renessance sword, lets make some cheapest ones"... But more by use. Let me explain. Personnally, I think that nimchas where firstly navy swords (even the modern "meanings" of the term lead to a short sword). I think those are herited from an era where a LOT OF people from every culture, was sometimes fighting each others, sometimes trading, sometimes even attackng other boats together (remember that the algerian fleet, yes, fleet, not "pirates".. haha, actually the most feared in mediteranean see even before ottoman era /many attacks on spain etc/ was with ottomans, much more various, as many european corsairs with european members on the boat). I think that the nimcha is an "improvisation" of making the "perfect tool" for a new kind of war, in a new battlefield (the war : "the corso", the battlefield : "the see", new warfare : "boarding a boat is more interesting than canonning it.. much more money.. etc). And those points are usually what lead to a new weapon in military history, adding to mixity of cultures, external inspiration, or the willing to find how to "defeat" that "external" opponent, etc etc.
SO, for me, the storta, and other kind of italian/autrian/german sword of beginning of renaissance are clearly an inspiration. And there is a lot of chance that those where themselves inspired by some ottoman swords (kilij, pala), that was also inspired by asia (dao etc) etc etc... (stortas and those kind of swords LIKE THE BLADES that was mount on the most ancient algerian navy nimcha, are from Styrie as everyone knows, just in front of ottoman... a reason why Grace became one of the biggest sword production point).

AS ALGERIANS : remember that Kheireddine Barbarrossa the albanian ottoman, became algerian (lol, yeah, mix of cultures, here it is..) by helping algerians against spanish that was destroying the east after the reconquista. We have some engravings/paintings of that man, his brothers, or the first janissaries that came with him, having italian sword like, like falchions, or even rapier style swords, but giving what could be the firts inspiration for nimchas, like thin quillons guards. Here is a picture to illustrate. I know the sword on the picture could look far from a nimcha, but this is same era, same area, and same kind of spirit (noblesman swords) than many others that gives the exact same guard than a nimcha (like italians stortas for ex).

[fennec]

Concerning this model I cant find something very algerian here...
I mean, close style but not same. Never gems on algerian guards (sometimes a bit of coral on quillon tips, but thats it), and not as much on a handle.
I really dont know whats is that sword, if its actually italian, it could be a good way to understand inspirations... But still have to determind an age, because if it is something that is sometimes hard to accept for us europeans (even for me...) is that algerian (or north afrian, and widely the world..) could also have inspired such models, by the "legend" of algerian pirates at this era throught europe, or even the willing to have a sword like those tooken from algerian shipman, as the one of Tromp, De Ruyter, etc.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by fennec

Hi mate, and sorry again for the time to answer (dont hesitate to send me an email in case someday you want to ask me something "important", sometimes I'm more reactiv...lol)

Well, it could be, I mean, at first look I would say that, and I was about, but actually I have serious doubt. The only thing that would made it moroccan for me is the origin of the blade, but even those ones where mount on algerian nimcha (trading, or tooken during battles). The hole on the pommel (I know I know, that could look funny as a factor of algerian origin, but this is very reccurent) and the guard lead me more to an algerian one.
Compare your sword to those ones. First picture, that was upper, you see that nimcha, for most of people, this could be a moroccan one, if we had no scabbard. Hopefully it is, and those models are good to proof that those geometry (handle, but also blade shape) was also common in algeria.

When looking back at the sword I showed, if you look at the band under the guard, it has floral motives of a style we find on koummya scabbards, hence my Moroccan attribution.

I also would not rely on a scabbard for attribution, as scabbards were replaced more frequently than hilts.