Pre Culloden English dragoon basket hilt?

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 10:04 PM

In researching this simple basket hilt, there are a number of perplexing details which make it difficult to identify and date. As far as its character as a 'basket hilt' the simple and undecorated shields suggest it is English, but the guard is attached to the pommel through slotted entry rather than the ring usually under the pommel in English versions.

The pommel seems of the low dome type c. 1710-20s?

The blade is of the single edge, back fuller type familiar on English hangers in early to mid 18th c. Here is another perplexing detail, there is what appears to be a fluer de lis in blade center. While naturally first thoughts are that this must be a French blade.
As Prince Charlie's forces were assembling in France pre-Culloden, it is tempting to think of this being a weapon with blade from the Paris arsenal etc. However, we know that the fluer de lis was also used on English blades.

In the 1894 work on "Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden" by Lord Archibald Campbell, the fluer de lis is among markings found on some of the blades of the 190 swords recovered from the field in 1746.

In Bezdek's book on Scottish & English sword makers, there is an English basket hilt shown c.1650 with a guard system resembling the possible prototypes for the Glasgow hilts.

Is it possible this is an early English basket hilt from some of the units developed for the British army in early 18th century, and by garrison town makers following standard Scottish convention?
When exactly did the 'pommel ring' typically regarded as 'English' begin use? It seems they are characteristically regarded as mid 18th, but some basket hilts 1720s-30s have them.

urbanspaceman · Yesterday, 11:12 PM

Hey Jim, that is a cool hilt. It is symmetrical, which, if I remember correctly, was a later style more suited to the gloved hands of the English than the bare clan hands.
Apart from embellishments and decoration it is virtually the same as later Glasgow style minus the wrist guard.
The French ingredient definitely adds towards pre. Culloden.
I am really inexperienced once I move outside of my specialty subject but I am learning, nevertheless, feel free to disabuse my fanciful notions.

Jim McDougall · Today, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hey Jim, that is a cool hilt. It is symmetrical, which, if I remember correctly, was a later style more suited to the gloved hands of the English than the bare clan hands.
Apart from embellishments and decoration it is virtually the same as later Glasgow style minus the wrist guard.
The French ingredient definitely adds towards pre. Culloden.
I am really inexperienced once I move outside of my specialty subject but I am learning, nevertheless, feel free to disabuse my fanciful notions.

Not at all fanciful Keith! but well observed. Thank you for coming in on this. Its another sword Ive had for half a century, and never focused on getting to the bottom of its secrets. Now that it is bucket list time, I can see many possibilities and this field of study is most arcane and formidable, but ready to learn as well!

werecow · Today, 03:58 AM

I have very little expertise in this area but I just want to point out the bars that might get in the way of a saber grip, which in my very limited exposure to these swords (mostly via Matt Easton) might imply something about their dating, although I'm not sure what.

Did I qualify that enough? #impostorsyndrome

Well, I guess that wasn't very useful was it.

Jim McDougall · Today, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

I have very little expertise in this area but I just want to point out the bars that might get in the way of a saber grip, which in my very limited exposure to these swords (mostly via Matt Easton) might imply something about their dating, although I'm not sure what.

Did I qualify that enough? #impostorsyndrome

Well, I guess that wasn't very useful was it.

I appreciate any input believe me, so thank you!
Im not sure what is meant by saber grip though.
Mostly its hilt features, for example the guard on this has saltire bars keyed to the pommel rather than the ring attached to guard and sitting below pommel.
That suggests this hilt dates c. 1710-30 roughly.
As noted, material on these basket hilts is pretty scattered in numbers of articles etc in sometimes obscure sources.

werecow · Today, 01:39 PM

I did a bit of searching and I think this is the video that I had a vague recollection of:

https://youtu.be/aQKNy7ze2jQ?t=222

He talks about the angle at which the arms of the basket hilt join at the pommel and how that changed in the Victorian era from earlier swords. But I guess this is more relevant to dating later basket hilts.

Yesterday, 10:04 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,377	Pre Culloden English dragoon basket hilt? In researching this simple basket hilt, there are a number of perplexing details which make it difficult to identify and date. As far as its character as a 'basket hilt' the simple and undecorated shields suggest it is English, but the guard is attached to the pommel through slotted entry rather than the ring usually under the pommel in English versions. The pommel seems of the low dome type c. 1710-20s? The blade is of the single edge, back fuller type familiar on English hangers in early to mid 18th c. Here is another perplexing detail, there is what appears to be a fluer de lis in blade center. While naturally first thoughts are that this must be a French blade. As Prince Charlie's forces were assembling in France pre-Culloden, it is tempting to think of this being a weapon with blade from the Paris arsenal etc. However, we know that the fluer de lis was also used on English blades. In the 1894 work on "Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden" by Lord Archibald Campbell, the fluer de lis is among markings found on some of the blades of the 190 swords recovered from the field in 1746. In Bezdek's book on Scottish & English sword makers, there is an English basket hilt shown c.1650 with a guard system resembling the possible prototypes for the Glasgow hilts. Is it possible this is an early English basket hilt from some of the units developed for the British army in early 18th century, and by garrison town makers following standard Scottish convention? When exactly did the 'pommel ring' typically regarded as 'English' begin use? It seems they are characteristically regarded as mid 18th, but some basket hilts 1720s-30s have them. Attached Images

Yesterday, 11:12 PM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 660	symmetrical Hey Jim, that is a cool hilt. It is symmetrical, which, if I remember correctly, was a later style more suited to the gloved hands of the English than the bare clan hands. Apart from embellishments and decoration it is virtually the same as later Glasgow style minus the wrist guard. The French ingredient definitely adds towards pre. Culloden. I am really inexperienced once I move outside of my specialty subject but I am learning, nevertheless, feel free to disabuse my fanciful notions.

Today, 03:58 AM	#4
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 580	I have very little expertise in this area but I just want to point out the bars that might get in the way of a saber grip, which in my very limited exposure to these swords (mostly via Matt Easton) might imply something about their dating, although I'm not sure what. Did I qualify that enough? #impostorsyndrome Well, I guess that wasn't very useful was it.

Today, 01:39 PM	#6
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 580	I did a bit of searching and I think this is the video that I had a vague recollection of: https://youtu.be/aQKNy7ze2jQ?t=222 He talks about the angle at which the arms of the basket hilt join at the pommel and how that changed in the Victorian era from earlier swords. But I guess this is more relevant to dating later basket hilts.