Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 18th December 2009, 08:20 PM   #1
danny1976
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Holland
Posts: 232
Default hilt material ?

Hello,

I did recieved this hilt today .

On this one no flying horse or dutch crown just this symbol.
I there some one that can help me with the material , it,s ivory but i.m not
sure what kind.

The structure is verry closed.

Thanks in advance,

Danny
Attached Images
    
danny1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2009, 09:26 PM   #2
asomotif
Member
 
asomotif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,987
Default

Maybe sperm whale ? (potvis in dutch)
asomotif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2009, 12:44 AM   #3
guwaya
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 45
Default hilt material ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danny1976
Hello,

I did recieved this hilt today .

On this one no flying horse or dutch crown just this symbol.
I there some one that can help me with the material , it,s ivory but i.m not
sure what kind.

The structure is verry closed.

Thanks in advance,

Danny



Hello,

could you send a picture from the hole and its surrounding?


guwaya
guwaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2009, 10:36 AM   #4
danny1976
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Holland
Posts: 232
Default

Hi Guwaya ,

Here a extra photo,


Danny
Attached Images
  
danny1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2009, 11:06 AM   #5
Michel
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 139
Default Ivory ?

Hi Danny,

Are you sure it is Ivory ?
Have you made the traditional hot needle test?
The lack of sharpness in the details make me think it could be molded.
I may be totally wrong and in that case I apologize for such an iconoclastic view of your hilt.
Regards
Michel
Michel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2009, 11:15 AM   #6
danny1976
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Holland
Posts: 232
Default

Hi Michel,

No need to apologize,

Indeed i did make the test and al that happens is a red hot needle that wil bend when i push i against the hilt.

So no plastic or someting like it.
danny1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2009, 01:10 PM   #7
guwaya
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 45
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by danny1976
Hi Guwaya ,

Here a extra photo,


Danny



Hi Danny,

Thank you for the extra photo.

At the first view I thought as asomotif that it could be spermwhale ivory but now I think it is not as I am missing the bull's eye. I have no idea at the moment - sorry.

Guwaya
guwaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2009, 03:40 PM   #8
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,519
Smile

Danny, I think it looks like Marine Ivory .
Note the interesting 'swirls' near the base in your first and second pictures



I would not stake my life on it though !!
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2009, 05:49 PM   #9
Marcokeris
Member
 
Marcokeris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 766
Default

Also i think it's marine ivory
Marcokeris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2009, 07:10 PM   #10
kulbuntet
Member
 
kulbuntet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 159
Default

Hi Danny,

Sure its marine ivory, most of madura ukiran are and it shows clouds so its marine. This one is from before 1825. Got it from Peter?

Regards Michel, amsterdam
kulbuntet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th December 2009, 04:28 PM   #11
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,140
Default

I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL HILTS SIMULAR TO THIS ONE. THEY HAVE ALL BEEN SMALLER THIN HILTS ,I HAVE NEVER SEEN A LARGE ROBUST ONE IN THIS EXACT FORM. I HAVE SEEN LARGER MORE ROBUST ONES CARVED FROM THE ENTIRE LARGE TOOTH BUT SIZE IS LIMITED USING WHALE TEETH AS THEY ARE MUCH SMALLER THAN ELEPHANT, HIPPO OR WALRUS IVORY. I SUSPECT THEY ARE MADE FROM ONE HALF OF A LARGE SPERM WHALE TOOTH. AS MENTIONED IVORY WAS NOT EASILY COME BY IN THESE AREAS SO MAKEING TWO HULU FROM ONE TOOTH WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY DESIRABLE FROM AN ECONOMIC REASON. OF MARINE IVORY THE TWO LARGEST ARE WALRUS AND SPERM WHALE ALL THE OTHER MARINE MAMMALS TEETH WOULD NOT BE LARGE ENOUGH TO MAKE SUCH A HILT EVEN FROM THE ENTIRE TOOTH (I DON'T CONSIDER HIPPO AS MARINE IVORY).
THE SPERM WHALE TOOTH IS HOLLOW AT THE BASE AND MOSTLY SOLID TOWARDS THE TIP, MANY HAVE A LARGE BLUNT TIP OFTEN LARGER THAN THE ROOT. THE TOOTH GROWS IN CONCENTRIC RINGS LIKE A TREE DOES AND WOULD NOT HAVE THE CROSS HATCHING FOUND IN ELEPHANT TEETH OR THE CENTER HONEY COMB LOOK OF WALRUS IVORY. BONE DOES NOT HAVE CONCENTRIC RINGS LIKE YOUR HULU.
IVORY WILL CHANGE COLOR IF BURIED ON LAND OR SEA, THERE ARE PLACES WHERE WHALE TEETH ARE FOUND ON THE SEA BOTTOM OR BURRIED ON BEACHES THAT HAVE CHANGED TO A COLOR SIMULAR TO YOUR EXAMPLE. THOSE TAKEN FROM LIVING ANIMALS DURING WHALEING ARE PURE WHITE BUT WOULD GRADUALLY CHANGE COLOR OVER THE YEARS AS A KERIS HANDLE WOULD ESPECIALLY IF USED AND HANDLED A LOT.
ON THE SIDE OF YOUR HILT YOU SEE THE BULLSEYE WHICH LOOKS LIKE THE GROWTH RINGS FOUND IN SPERM WHALE TEETH AND FROM THE ORIENTATION THAT IS WHAT LEADS ME TO THINK IT WAS MADE FROM HALF A TOOTH. THE WEAR ON THE CARVEING AND THE COLOR LEADS ME TO AGREE THE HILT IS VERY LIKELY AN OLD ONE THAT WAS CARRIED AND HANDLED OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. OFTEN WHALE TEETH WERE REFERRED TO AS FISH TEETH IN OLDER MORE SIMPLE TIMES. I HAVE SUCH A HILT BUT UNFORTUNATELY NO WAY TO TAKE PICTURES TO POST AT THIS TIME. I HOPE THIS HELPS AND THAT MY OBSERVATIONS ARE CORRECT. CONGRADULATIONS ON A NICE KERIS. SEARCH THE ARCHIVES FOR POSTS ON IVORY WITH REFRENCES AND FURTHER INFO.
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th December 2009, 05:09 PM   #12
danny1976
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Holland
Posts: 232
Default

Hi Vandoo,

Thanks for youre deep going explanation on the hilt.
Personaly i also have the idea its a verry old one , because of the signs of wearing and handling this one.

It,s not realy big , about 8.5 cm but it has a nice weight .

what kind it is , i will just say if some one ask its sea ivory , but for know its standind quite nice on a madura keris at my home

Regards,

Danny
danny1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th December 2009, 07:51 PM   #13
Marcokeris
Member
 
Marcokeris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 766
Default

About hit material.... is possible to see some good pic of rhino horn hit???
Marcokeris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th December 2009, 09:17 PM   #14
asomotif
Member
 
asomotif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,987
Default Rhino

I wonder if there are genuine rhino keris hilts.

But here is a nice thread on rhino :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ght=ivory+rhino
asomotif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2009, 12:44 AM   #15
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,253
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcokeris
About hit material.... is possible to see some good pic of rhino horn hit???

Well, i'd have to say that it might be appropriate for this forum if indeed someone could show us a keris hilt made of rhino, but i have never seen that. Still, even if someone has one to show it might be best to start a new thread on it.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd January 2010, 11:36 PM   #16
Alam Shah
Member
 
Alam Shah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
Default Rhino keris hilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Well, i'd have to say that it might be appropriate for this forum if indeed someone could show us a keris hilt made of rhino, but i have never seen that. Still, even if someone has one to show it might be best to start a new thread on it.
Hi Marco and David,

This is an example on a Sumatran keris..
http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p56026159.html

* see other pictures here.
Alam Shah is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:48 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.