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Old 22nd November 2009, 07:45 PM   #1
fernando
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Default A flintlock pistol ... with a Portuguese lock.

Hi guys,
I am extremely glad with this piece. This time there are no usual ambiguities with its origin, whether Spanish or Portuguese, needing the term 'peninsular' for a definition be possible.
It is marked and signed by a famed Portuguese master, BARTHOLOMEU GOMES, who used to have his own workshop in Lisbon, before being called to due service in the Royal Arsenals in 1762, due to the post-Restoration war campaign, together with several other masters and aid smiths.
We can clearly see on the frizzen his name and the date 1781, following the initials Lxa for Lisboa.
The lock plate is marked with his personal 'coat of arms', containing his name.
This is a huge pistol, measuring 52 cms (20 1/2") and weighing almost 1,5 Kg (3,2 pounds).
There are still traces of golden florals on the barrel.
Its 'patilha' lock functions perfectly.
Anyone care to coment?
Thanks
Fernando

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Old 22nd November 2009, 08:54 PM   #2
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That is mighty early for a captive ramrod. I was under the impression they became popular closer to the end of 18th century, than to the middle.
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Old 22nd November 2009, 11:29 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry
That is mighty early for a captive ramrod. I was under the impression they became popular closer to the end of 18th century, than to the middle.


Thank you for your remark .
It is however not impossible that the swivel was a later addition .
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Old 24th November 2009, 02:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry
That is mighty early for a captive ramrod. I was under the impression they became popular closer to the end of 18th century, than to the middle.

It appears that the captive ramrod (officially) appeared by the 1800's.
Most possibly this pistol 'was called' to service by the time of Napoleonic invasions and, following the contemporary Britsh use, had the ramrod swivel applied; and maybe also the lanyard ring extracted.
Many things happen during many weapon's history.
Fernando
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Old 25th November 2009, 02:57 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
It appears that the captive ramrod (officially) appeared by the 1800's.
Most possibly this pistol 'was called' to service by the time of Napoleonic invasions and, following the contemporary Britsh use, had the ramrod swivel applied; and maybe also the lanyard ring extracted.
Many things happen during many weapon's history.
Fernando


In a second thought, the lanyard ring wouldn't have been extracted but, instead, had its 'nipple' added to the butt same time as the ramrod swivel.
Fernando
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Old 12th November 2017, 07:32 PM   #6
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By the time i acquired this pistol i knew nothing about these things (still i don't) and my ignorance persuated to believe and state most of the above posted nonsense. I would say most, as obviously what concerns the lock and his well know smith master are a straight fact.
As for the rest, i regret tat i failed to revisit this thread and correct a few vital details, as learnt a couple months later from someone more qualified to have an opinion on these items. So quoting the man:
To start with, the stock is a late clumsy work. The barrel is typical of Liege 1740-1750; the ranmrod swivel a later addition. The brass butt cap would be Spanish. The 18th. century trigger guard typically Poruguese, but had its width trimmed, as was originally from a shoulder gun. Eventually the Portuguese lock was also the model for a musket.
And the more bombastic assessment was that the barrel, originally for a flint lock, was once modified to a percussion version and ... later converted back to serve again a flint lock. Go figure how this is plausible, and what knowledge needs an expert to notice these details, just by looking at a pistol.
In any case i could not go without reposition the truth, even this late; more important to assume what this pistol is not, than not necessarily what it is.
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Old 12th November 2017, 09:36 PM   #7
Pukka Bundook
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Fernando,

It is still a wonderful piece, with a Fantastic and very robust lock.

These locks hold me in awe. So very strong and sure.

Best wishes,
Richard.
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Old 13th November 2017, 08:03 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
It appears that the captive ramrod (officially) appeared by the 1800's.



The earliest regulation pistol with a captive ramrod I know is the cavalry pistol M 1789 of Saxony
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Old 22nd November 2009, 09:17 PM   #9
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Beautiful acquisition, Nando.

I agree with Dimitri, it has to be one of the first guns to have been fitted with a captive ramrod. Congrats!

M


Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Hi guys,
I am extremely glad with this piece. This time there are no usual ambiguities with its origin, whether Spanish or Portuguese, needing the term 'peninsular' for a definition be possible.
It is marked and signed by a famed Portuguese master, BARTHOLOMEU GOMES, who used to have his own workshop in Lisbon, before being called to due service in the Royal Arsenals in 1762, due to the post-Restoration war campaign, together with several other masters and aid smiths.
We can clearly see on the frizzen his name and the date 1781, following the initials Lxa for Lisboa.
The lock plate is marked with his personal 'coat of arms', containing his name.
This is a huge pistol, measuring 52 cms (20 1/2") and weighing almost 1,5 Kg (3,2 pounds).
There are still traces of golden florals on the barrel.
Its 'patilha' lock functions perfectly.
Anyone care to coment?
Thanks
Fernando

.
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Old 22nd November 2009, 11:34 PM   #10
fernando
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Hi Nelinho,

Quote:
Originally Posted by celtan
Beautiful acquisition, Nando.
I agree with Dimitri, it has to be one of the first guns to have been fitted with a captive ramrod. Congrats!
M


Muchas gracias .
As i say, the swivel could have been a later improvement; but if it were, was a professional work.
Nando
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Old 23rd November 2009, 12:50 AM   #11
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I don't know anything about Portuguese firearms. Was this a regulation pistol?
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Old 24th November 2009, 02:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry
I don't know anything about Portuguese firearms. Was this a regulation pistol?


Regulation means what it says: regulation. In the context, the rules for weapons uniformization ... be them Portuguese or other.
This is when rules are issued to describe the (new) military patterns to be used, whether the weapons are made at the arsenals or when soldiers (officers) are supposed to acquire their own pieces in private workshops, all obliged to follow the same design and basic characteristics.
Consequently a pistol or a sword being a pattern of a determined date, potentially obbeys to the regulation of the same date.
In some cases, officers could have their swords made with the regulation hilt design and use the blades of their ancestors, for honour or sentimental reasons, as long as those (blades) did comply globaly with the regulation measurements.
Also some high rank officers used to be recorded with pistols of a model not complying with the current regulation, whether because they (pistols) had a better performance or simply for show off. But you know all that, of course.
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Old 24th November 2009, 03:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Regulation means what it says: regulation.


Thank you. I did not know that.

If this was a regulation piece, it should be easy to research. Lack of decoration on the stock suggests that it could've been an issue weapon, in which case you should see similar examples.
The lack or a band securing the barrel to the fore-end of the stock is also unusual, but I don't know anything about Portuguese firearms...

Last edited by Dmitry : 24th November 2009 at 03:33 PM.
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