Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Ethnographic Arms & Armour (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/index.php)
-   European Armoury (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=12)
-   -   A flintlock pistol ... with a Portuguese lock. (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11101)

fernando 22nd November 2009 07:45 PM

A flintlock pistol ... with a Portuguese lock.
 
9 Attachment(s)
Hi guys,
I am extremely glad with this piece. This time there are no usual ambiguities with its origin, whether Spanish or Portuguese, needing the term 'peninsular' for a definition be possible.
It is marked and signed by a famed Portuguese master, BARTHOLOMEU GOMES, who used to have his own workshop in Lisbon, before being called to due service in the Royal Arsenals in 1762, due to the post-Restoration war campaign, together with several other masters and aid smiths.
We can clearly see on the frizzen his name and the date 1781, following the initials Lxa for Lisboa.
The lock plate is marked with his personal 'coat of arms', containing his name.
This is a huge pistol, measuring 52 cms (20 1/2") and weighing almost 1,5 Kg (3,2 pounds).
There are still traces of golden florals on the barrel.
Its 'patilha' lock functions perfectly.
Anyone care to coment?
Thanks
Fernando

.

Dmitry 22nd November 2009 08:54 PM

That is mighty early for a captive ramrod. I was under the impression they became popular closer to the end of 18th century, than to the middle.

celtan 22nd November 2009 09:17 PM

Beautiful acquisition, Nando.

I agree with Dimitri, it has to be one of the first guns to have been fitted with a captive ramrod. Congrats!

M


Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Hi guys,
I am extremely glad with this piece. This time there are no usual ambiguities with its origin, whether Spanish or Portuguese, needing the term 'peninsular' for a definition be possible.
It is marked and signed by a famed Portuguese master, BARTHOLOMEU GOMES, who used to have his own workshop in Lisbon, before being called to due service in the Royal Arsenals in 1762, due to the post-Restoration war campaign, together with several other masters and aid smiths.
We can clearly see on the frizzen his name and the date 1781, following the initials Lxa for Lisboa.
The lock plate is marked with his personal 'coat of arms', containing his name.
This is a huge pistol, measuring 52 cms (20 1/2") and weighing almost 1,5 Kg (3,2 pounds).
There are still traces of golden florals on the barrel.
Its 'patilha' lock functions perfectly.
Anyone care to coment?
Thanks
Fernando

.

fernando 22nd November 2009 11:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry
That is mighty early for a captive ramrod. I was under the impression they became popular closer to the end of 18th century, than to the middle.


Thank you for your remark :rolleyes: .
It is however not impossible that the swivel was a later addition :shrug: .
Fernando

fernando 22nd November 2009 11:34 PM

Hi Nelinho,

Quote:
Originally Posted by celtan
Beautiful acquisition, Nando.
I agree with Dimitri, it has to be one of the first guns to have been fitted with a captive ramrod. Congrats!
M


Muchas gracias :) .
As i say, the swivel could have been a later improvement; but if it were, was a professional work.
Nando

Dmitry 23rd November 2009 12:50 AM

I don't know anything about Portuguese firearms. Was this a regulation pistol?

fernando 24th November 2009 02:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry
I don't know anything about Portuguese firearms. Was this a regulation pistol?


Regulation means what it says: regulation. In the context, the rules for weapons uniformization ... be them Portuguese or other.
This is when rules are issued to describe the (new) military patterns to be used, whether the weapons are made at the arsenals or when soldiers (officers) are supposed to acquire their own pieces in private workshops, all obliged to follow the same design and basic characteristics.
Consequently a pistol or a sword being a pattern of a determined date, potentially obbeys to the regulation of the same date.
In some cases, officers could have their swords made with the regulation hilt design and use the blades of their ancestors, for honour or sentimental reasons, as long as those (blades) did comply globaly with the regulation measurements.
Also some high rank officers used to be recorded with pistols of a model not complying with the current regulation, whether because they (pistols) had a better performance or simply for show off. But you know all that, of course.
Fernando

fernando 24th November 2009 02:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry
That is mighty early for a captive ramrod. I was under the impression they became popular closer to the end of 18th century, than to the middle.

It appears that the captive ramrod (officially) appeared by the 1800's.
Most possibly this pistol 'was called' to service by the time of Napoleonic invasions and, following the contemporary Britsh use, had the ramrod swivel applied; and maybe also the lanyard ring extracted.
Many things happen during many weapon's history.
Fernando

Dmitry 24th November 2009 03:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Regulation means what it says: regulation.


Thank you. I did not know that.

If this was a regulation piece, it should be easy to research. Lack of decoration on the stock suggests that it could've been an issue weapon, in which case you should see similar examples.
The lack or a band securing the barrel to the fore-end of the stock is also unusual, but I don't know anything about Portuguese firearms...

fernando 25th November 2009 02:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry
Thank you. I did not know that ...

Don't take it wrong; i was referring to the connotation of the term, in its idiomatic expression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry
... If this was a regulation piece, it should be easy to research...

I don't think this is a regulation piece; this assuming that pistols were already a regulated weapon in Portugal by 1781 (i intend to check that).
However and despite Master Bartholomeu has been attached to the Royal Arsenals, it wouldn't mean that he ceased making pistols for private use; he might even already be dismissed from the Arsenal by that date. Besides, if this were an issue weapon, i'd say he would mark it with reference to the Royal Arsenal, and not just to Lisbon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry
... Lack of decoration on the stock suggests that it could've been an issue weapon, in which case you should see similar examples. ...

The stock is not decorated, but the barrel is. OTOH, these items are very scarce, easier to find in private collectors hands and not exhibited out there, i'm afraid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry
... The lack or a band securing the barrel to the fore-end of the stock is also unusual ...

Not really unusual; if you have a look to this period holster pistols in general, namely British, as large as may be, you will notice that the significant majority don't have a barrel band, as they are secured by pins or wedges to fore-end hooks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry
... but I don't know anything about Portuguese firearms...

You're not alone; my knowledge of Portuguese firearms is the same as about those from other countries: barely residual. But i love to learn.

Fernando

fernando 25th November 2009 02:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
It appears that the captive ramrod (officially) appeared by the 1800's.
Most possibly this pistol 'was called' to service by the time of Napoleonic invasions and, following the contemporary Britsh use, had the ramrod swivel applied; and maybe also the lanyard ring extracted.
Many things happen during many weapon's history.
Fernando


In a second thought, the lanyard ring wouldn't have been extracted but, instead, had its 'nipple' added to the butt same time as the ramrod swivel.
Fernando

fernando 12th November 2017 07:32 PM

By the time i acquired this pistol i knew nothing about these things (still i don't) and my ignorance persuated to believe and state most of the above posted nonsense. I would say most, as obviously what concerns the lock and his well know smith master are a straight fact.
As for the rest, i regret tat i failed to revisit this thread and correct a few vital details, as learnt a couple months later from someone more qualified to have an opinion on these items. So quoting the man:
To start with, the stock is a late clumsy work. The barrel is typical of Liege 1740-1750; the ranmrod swivel a later addition. The brass butt cap would be Spanish. The 18th. century trigger guard typically Poruguese, but had its width trimmed, as was originally from a shoulder gun. Eventually the Portuguese lock was also the model for a musket.
And the more bombastic assessment was that the barrel, originally for a flint lock, was once modified to a percussion version and ... later converted back to serve again a flint lock. Go figure how this is plausible, and what knowledge needs an expert to notice these details, just by looking at a pistol.
In any case i could not go without reposition the truth, even this late; more important to assume what this pistol is not, than not necessarily what it is.

Pukka Bundook 12th November 2017 09:36 PM

Fernando,

It is still a wonderful piece, with a Fantastic and very robust lock.

These locks hold me in awe. So very strong and sure.

Best wishes,
Richard.

fernando 12th November 2017 09:54 PM

Thank you Richard :cool: .

kronckew 13th November 2017 07:43 AM

british sea service pistols frequently had belt hooks, might this be a naval pistol?

corrado26 13th November 2017 08:03 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
It appears that the captive ramrod (officially) appeared by the 1800's.



The earliest regulation pistol with a captive ramrod I know is the cavalry pistol M 1789 of Saxony
corrado26

fernando 15th November 2017 01:33 PM

7 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
british sea service pistols frequently had belt hooks, might this be a naval pistol?

Belt hooks used to abound in the Peninsula; not necessarily naval ... at all.
I have (and had) several examples in my little collection, monuted in the most diverse gun types.

.

rickystl 18th November 2017 02:43 PM

Hi Fernando.

Well, it's still a good looking pistol. Especially that wonderful lock !!
Had I seen this pistol, even if I had known the correct analysis above, if the price was reasonable, I would have bought it anyway just to get the lock for my lock collection. LOL :D The brass hardware I would keep for a later unforseen project. LOL :rolleyes: But that's just me. Again, very cool lock.

While belt hooks were used on pistols all over Europe, they did seem to be especially popular on the Peninsula, as you mention. You see them on pistols and carbine length long guns both military and civilian of all types.

Again, really nice lock on that pistol.

Rick

fernando 18th November 2017 04:04 PM

Thank you for words Rick.
Indeed the lock is the great asset. Made by a master recognized by local arms historians. According to the Viscount de Villarinho de São Romão (1835), it was Bartholomeu Gomes "who gave the greatest enlightening in musketry".
Price, considering the lock, was not bad ... but not too good either; swapped with a French 1777 musket.
Concerning belt hooks, you know i could almost swear i saw them mounted in full size shoulder guns ?. And by the way, take a look at the 6th picture in post #17; a part of a Spanish luxury hunting escopeta. Istn't that the hole for a belt hook ? :o


.

Oliver Pinchot 18th November 2017 04:36 PM

Congratulations, Fernando!
Certainly an important addition to your collection and
a benefit to the Forum

fernando 18th November 2017 04:44 PM

Thank you so much, Oliver.

rickystl 18th November 2017 07:38 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Hi Fernando.

Frames 6 and 7 do indeed look like there were belt hooks attached at some point.
I don't recall seeing any belt hooks on full-size shoulder muskets. And there would be no need for one since the heavy muskets were equiped with shoulder slings. The only regulation belt hook I can recall was on the Spanish Light Weight Military Escopeda. And they were longer than the hooks for pistols.
I also believe that many of these guns were not assembled with belt hooks, bur added later by their owners.

Here is a Spanish and English pistol with belt hooks added later sometime back in the period. The hook on the Spanish pistol looks a bit crude compared to the rest of the gun. The hook on the English pistol, while well done, looks like it was added later since the engraving does not match with the rest of the pistol.

They seem so common on Spanish pistols that I see more of them with belt hooks than not.

Rick

Philip 19th November 2017 02:35 AM

remarkable lock indeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
Hi Fernando.

Well, it's still a good looking pistol. Especially that wonderful lock !!
Had I seen this pistol, even if I had known the correct analysis above, if the price was reasonable, I would have bought it anyway just to get the lock for my lock collection. LOL :D The brass hardware I would keep for a later unforseen project. LOL :rolleyes: But that's just me. Again, very cool lock.



Rick


I'd love to have that thing myself, Rick! Look at the chiseling; it has suffered from wear and exposure, but imagine what it looked like when new! Especially appealing, for something made in the second half of the 18th cent., are design elements harking back a century before. Note especially the cock, with its baluster-form stem and jaws that sit at an obtuse angle. Both it and the lockplate profile are so classically Iberian, unaffected by the Frenchification that crept into miquelet lock design in the 18th cent., especially in production for royal patronage.

fernando 19th November 2017 02:49 PM

7 Attachment(s)
Obrigado pelas suas palavras, Filipe :) .
I have just disassemble the barrel; a long story it tells.
Evidence that, as per professor Daehnhardt's appreciation, its ignition orifice has been drilled to lodge a percussioon 'rubber' and later welded back into a flintlock touch hole.
Visible also the faded assembly marks and smiths poinçon; and the traces of having had a seconf fixation to a prior stock.


,

rickystl 19th November 2017 05:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
I'd love to have that thing myself, Rick! Look at the chiseling; it has suffered from wear and exposure, but imagine what it looked like when new! Especially appealing, for something made in the second half of the 18th cent., are design elements harking back a century before. Note especially the cock, with its baluster-form stem and jaws that sit at an obtuse angle. Both it and the lockplate profile are so classically Iberian, unaffected by the Frenchification that crept into miquelet lock design in the 18th cent., especially in production for royal patronage.

Hi Philip.
Much agree. Even with the wear, it is still well marked and has a wonderful profile. Maybe Fernando can take a couple more pics of the lock as long as it's disassembled ? Would like to see the internals of the lock.
Rick

rickystl 19th November 2017 05:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Obrigado pelas suas palavras, Filipe :) .
I have just disassemble the barrel; a long story it tells.
Evidence that, as per professor Daehnhardt's appreciation, its ignition orifice has been drilled to lodge a percussioon 'rubber' and later welded back into a flintlock touch hole.
Visible also the faded assembly marks and smiths poinçon; and the traces of having had a seconf fixation to a prior stock.

Hi Fernando.
OK, yes, you can see where the barrel had a percussion bolster at some point in it's life, then removed. The captive ramrod was probably add when the barrel was converted to percussion.
I'm going to speculate that the barrel and lock were originally from two different guns. And at some point back in the period a new stock was made to accomodate both the barrel and lock. It appears the stock has less wear than the lock and barrel.
For sure, this gun - or at least the lock and barrel - have seen a lot of action. It seems the gun was assembled from various loose parts that were available at the moment. What a story this gun could tell.

Rick

.

Philip 20th November 2017 04:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
Hi Philip.
Much agree. Even with the wear, it is still well marked and has a wonderful profile.
Rick


There's something else I just noticed about the profile of the lockplate. It's the "wasp-waisted" shape that originated and which predominated throughout the 17th cent. in Spain and the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies before the more streamlined French type plate virtually replaced it in 18th-19th cent. Madrid. However, note how the tail, with its rounded terminus, tilts downward at an angle.

This downward tail appears to be a Portuguese variant. There are at least seven examples on Portuguese patilha locks on guns in the exhibit catalog ESPINGARDARIA PORTUGUESA / ARMURERIE LIEGEOISE (Daehnhardt & Gaier, 1975), including a gorgeous chiseled example by Malaquias José da Costa. The da Costa lock, despite its late date (1820) and its English-style anti-friction rollers and Frenchified decorative motifs, is otherwise true to its Iberian roots, even to the long cock jaws at an obtuse angle, baluster stem, and otherwise very conservative proportions.

Looking over the published examples of Spanish locks with Ripoll and "provincial" style plates, I find that the tails tend to just stick out straight, with either rounded or triangular termini. (I'm becoming convinced that the square ends may be trans-Alpine, since you see just about all of these on Austrian or south German-made miquelets, but that's a topic for another thread).

Yes, Fernando, some pics of your lock detached from the gun will be welcomed!

kronckew 20th November 2017 08:57 AM

it looks like the new touch hole was fitted to the barrel and brazed into place with a high copper alloy, which is less destructive to the surrounding steel. obviously strong enough to survive this long. plug may have been loosely threaded & needed sealing in. as they say, necessity is the mother of invention.

Fernando K 20th November 2017 11:00 AM

Hello everyone

I think that the barrel was originally flint, and then a knapsack or pump was used to screw the chimney or nipple. In the second transformation, what was done was filing the masacote or bombeta, and the ear was left with a very large measure, the original perforation of the percussion. Look at the perfect limits of the filing, and as follows the original form of the masacote or bombeta.

Affectionately. Fernando k

fernando 20th November 2017 04:14 PM

The Babel tower
 
1 Attachment(s)
Are we all speaking about the same thing using different terms ?


.


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:21 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.