Sword for identification

[Pertinax]

Приветствую всех участников форума, благодарю что позволили мне присоединиться к Вашему сообществу.
В моей небольшой коллекции есть необычный меч. На клинке помимо всего прочего присутствует надпись. Для идентификации предмета, я вначале предпринял попытки перевести (расшифровать) этот текст. Изучил многие «живые» и «мертвые» языки, таблички рун, обращался к профессиональным переводчикам и лингвистам, но не удается не то, что перевести, но и определить алфавит. Некоторые буквы встречаются в древнеармянской и эфиопской азбуке. Пытались читать текст в зеркальном отображении, но это тоже результатов не принесло.
В 2022 г. в течении 3 месяцев этот предмет обсуждался на российском форуме (здесь присутствуют коллеги, которые принимали участие в обсуждении). Высказывалось очень много любопытных и интересных версий, но окончательно идентифицировать предмет не удалось. Сошлись во мнении, что предмет ритуальный для мистерий или подношений к храму/святилищу не ранее конца 19-го века.
Технические характеристики: общий размер - 1005 мм, длина клинка - 850 мм, длина рукояти - 155 мм, ширина клинка у пяты - 43 мм, толщина клинка у пяты – 3 мм, длина ножен - 870 мм; вес – 1092 г. Ножны подвергались реставрации.
Буду благодарен за любые версии происхождения и принадлежности предмета, заранее благодарю.
С уважением Юрий.

Greetings to all forum participants, thank you for allowing me to join your community.
I have an unusual sword in my small collection. On the blade, among other things, there is an inscription. To identify the subject, I first made attempts to translate (decipher) this text. I have studied many “living” and “dead” languages, rune tablets, contacted professional translators and linguists, but I cannot not only translate, but also determine the alphabet. Some letters are found in the ancient Armenian and Ethiopian alphabet. We tried to read the text in mirror image, but this also did not bring results.
In 2022, this subject was discussed at a Russian forum for 3 months (colleagues who took part in the discussion are present here). A lot of curious and interesting versions were expressed, but it was not possible to definitively identify the object. It was agreed that the object was a ritual item for mysteries or offerings to a temple/sanctuary no earlier than the end of the 19th century.
Technical characteristics: overall size - 1005 mm, blade length - 850 mm, handle length - 155 mm, blade width at the heel - 43 mm, blade thickness at the heel - 3 mm, sheath length - 870 mm; weight – 1092 g. The scabbard has been restored.
I would be grateful for any versions of the origin and ownership of the item, thank you in advance.
Regards, Yuri.

[Pertinax]

More photos

[Pertinax]

More photos

[Tim Simmons]

The imagery on this is fascinating. I am probably wrong but on the blade I see a wolf and an owl then a human like figure. On the grip I see a man with hat and moustache on the pommel end a devil figure near the hilt. Trying to find folklore with wolf and owl symbolism led me to Caucasian Albania. There is a Caucasian script with similar letters (scripts could depend on how faithfully they are represented) It appears that the wolf and owl has some relevance in Albania even if a different country. The symbolism is easily understood strength wisdom protection and guardianship from the devil. One way of looking at it.

[Tim Simmons]

Seems to be a well known combination. I thought this is a good interpretation. As I said I am probably way off and wrong. Just another way of looking at the possible origins of the sword.

[Tim Simmons]

Surely we must be looking at a long eared owl. The other things look like human bird transformation? Could the man on the grip be Amirani Georgian hero? he has a dog Q'ursha. Cannot find anything about an owl but some stuff about eagles. Transformation in the myths could be to an owl. Just having some fun on a wet and windy holiday.

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The imagery on this is fascinating. I am probably wrong but on the blade I see a wolf and an owl then a human like figure. On the grip I see a man with hat and moustache on the pommel end a devil figure near the hilt. Trying to find folklore with wolf and owl symbolism led me to Caucasian Albania. There is a Caucasian script with similar letters (scripts could depend on how faithfully they are represented) It appears that the wolf and owl has some relevance in Albania even if a different country. The symbolism is easily understood strength wisdom protection and guardianship from the devil. One way of looking at it.

Привет Тим!
Большое спасибо, очень интересная версия. Я, к сожалению, не владею английским языком, поэтому пользуюсь переводчиком. В стране, где я живу нет термина Кавказская Албания. Где этот регион находится?

Hello Tim!
Thank you very much, very interesting version. Unfortunately, I do not speak English, so I use a translator. In the country where I live there is no term Caucasian Albania. Where is this region located?

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Pertinax

More photos

hello this looks like a souvenir sword probably from iran, georgia has such tourist items too but theyed get the cyrillic correct or put georgian script.

the false damascus pattern and the shape of the blade are pretty typical of such items form iran.

but the pictures and weird text are very strange typically it iwll be islamic phrases and to be sold to muslim pilgrim-tourists in markets
it appears to be fake Cyrillic.. most likely this was made to sell to russian tourists. the text is an attempt at mimic cyrillic text.

no person in the caucasus in a muslim population would make such a text and intend it to be arabic as any mullah or other such religious person able to write at all or any person buying the item for such a purpose could read arabic if not understand it they recognized the letters. and anyone who attended a madrassa could read and write it. they can just copy a phrase from a koran under the instruction of somebody who did if they didnt understand it.

id say it falls into the category of those weird tourist "weapons" sold in iran and india,

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by ausjulius

hello this looks like a souvenir sword probably from iran, georgia has such tourist items too but theyed get the cyrillic correct or put georgian script.

the false damascus pattern and the shape of the blade are pretty typical of such items form iran.

but the pictures and weird text are very strange typically it iwll be islamic phrases and to be sold to muslim pilgrim-tourists in markets
it appears to be fake Cyrillic.. most likely this was made to sell to russian tourists. the text is an attempt at mimic cyrillic text.

no person in the caucasus in a muslim population would make such a text and intend it to be arabic as any mullah or other such religious person able to write at all or any person buying the item for such a purpose could read arabic if not understand it they recognized the letters. and anyone who attended a madrassa could read and write it. they can just copy a phrase from a koran under the instruction of somebody who did if they didnt understand it.

id say it falls into the category of those weird tourist "weapons" sold in iran and india,

Hi ausjulius.

The text has nothing to do with Cyrillic. The letters H, E, Р in the text are both in Cyrillic and in the Latin alphabet, some letters resemble ancient Armenian and Ethiopian.

The item is not for sale and not for tourists.

If you have examples of such "tourist weapons" - show them.

I recommend reading:

Malozyomova E. I. Holodnoe oruzhie i ritual'no-teatralizovannye predstavlenija v Irane [Edged Weapons and Ritualized Theatrical Performances in Iran]. Is-toricheskoe oruzhievedenie [Weapons History Journal], № 8, pp. 151 — 189.

https://historical-weapons.com/wp-co.../io_8_2020.pdf

Best regards,
Yuri

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Pertinax

Hi ausjulius.

The text has nothing to do with Cyrillic. The letters H, E, Р in the text are both in Cyrillic and in the Latin alphabet, some letters resemble ancient Armenian and Ethiopian.

The item is not for sale and not for tourists.

If you have examples of such "tourist weapons" - show them.

I recommend reading:

Malozyomova E. I. Holodnoe oruzhie i ritual'no-teatralizovannye predstavlenija v Irane [Edged Weapons and Ritualized Theatrical Performances in Iran]. Is-toricheskoe oruzhievedenie [Weapons History Journal], № 8, pp. 151 — 189.

https://historical-weapons.com/wp-co.../io_8_2020.pdf

Best regards,
Yuri

Hi Yuri, yes I know the text has nothing to do with cyrillic . It is just random shaped by a person who can't ready cyrillic.
It is like the European mediaeval fantasy text Mongolian writing in art or the fantasy text Latin scrip gibberish on some Chinese made guns or the "puma" " Adidas" or "made in France" nonsence you see on some Soviet prison knives blades. It is simply a cheaply made souvenir fantasy item. Like the cheap Zulfiqars you could buy or others I have seen many just like your one with iron handles and thin floppy blunt tipped blades hist as this. Shallow arabic writing acot etched. Fake Damascus patters. Just as yours. The difference is the weird images on the blade. But this is not a mystery weapon from some missing culture. It's just a souvenir item made in persia

[Ian]

ausjulius, I see where you are coming from. However, Yuri has gone to some trouble to show us why this isn't "just another tourist piece." While the workmanship is low quality, Yuri has identified a particular Shi'ite association that is interesting and seemingly well substantiated. That places his sword within the sphere of an ethnographic item used within a particular culture for a particular purpose, and not primarily made for sale to outsiders.