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Old 11th March 2023, 12:16 AM   #1
Gavin Nugent
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Default Bird and Croc?

Givin the off topic enquiry I made here;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=16214&page=7

I've opened this thread for a little more insight to my questions here;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=16214&page=7
About this here
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=191
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=197

Images are often hard to gauge in various lights but this is what I was seeing...image #1 the bird, image #2 potentially a stylised Crocodile? #3 same bird from the Madura post.

Detlef, is there any merit to it? Can the carvings be seen in other light?

With thanks

Gavin
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Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 11th March 2023 at 12:30 AM. Reason: Image addition
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Old 11th March 2023, 01:05 AM   #2
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Hello Gav,

Sometimes I am like blind, just before as I was working at the scabbard I noticed the obvious visible beak and bird-like head in front of the wrongko.
But still have to look longer at your posted picture to see the croc.

But I am careful, I have to examine it longer to be sure that it is a parrot, also seen by handles from Madura, or maybe Garuda? I am unsure.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 11th March 2023, 01:08 AM   #3
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After looking longer at the scabbard from different views and light I tend to believe what you see as the lower jaw is the leg of the bird or dragon.
And what you describe as splashing water respectively tail is the tail.

Last edited by Sajen; 11th March 2023 at 01:40 AM.
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Old 11th March 2023, 02:36 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen View Post
After looking longer at the scabbard from different views and light I tend to believe what you see as the lower jaw is the leg of the bird or dragon.
And what you describe as splashing water respectively tail is the tail.
That makes a lot more sense thanks Detlef.

What I thought were eyes, what do you think they represent within the bird?

It really is an exceptional example of the type. Congratulations.
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Old 11th March 2023, 02:49 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Sajen View Post
Hello Gav,

Sometimes I am like blind, just before as I was working at the scabbard I noticed the obvious visible beak and bird-like head in front of the wrongko.
But still have to look longer at your posted picture to see the croc.

But I am careful, I have to examine it longer to be sure that it is a parrot, also seen by handles from Madura, or maybe Garuda? I am unsure.

Regards,
Detlef
Don't feel too bad mate.

I bought a 25 luk Kelantan Keris many years ago... I knew it was special and I knew I wanted it for my collection... I did not notice for weeks, perhaps longer, that one face was malela and absent of any pamor, the reverse, a non-malela face, with a combination of the most complex talismanic pamors seen only in old Patani manuscripts
I think I was too enamoured in the luks and gold.

There have been a few WTF moments over the years.... you aren't alone...

Gav
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Old 11th March 2023, 11:39 PM   #6
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What I thought were eyes, what do you think they represent within the bird?
Hi Gav,

First, I am not sure if we see a bird here, I tend to Garuda. Would be nice to read what others think.
And no clue what the both spirals should represent.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 11th March 2023, 11:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent View Post
Don't feel too bad mate.

I bought a 25 luk Kelantan Keris many years ago... I knew it was special and I knew I wanted it for my collection... I did not notice for weeks, perhaps longer, that one face was malela and absent of any pamor, the reverse, a non-malela face, with a combination of the most complex talismanic pamors seen only in old Patani manuscripts
I think I was too enamoured in the luks and gold.

There have been a few WTF moments over the years.... you aren't alone...
It just annoys me that I looked but didn't see!
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Old 12th March 2023, 01:51 AM   #8
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The beak is classic parrot (head is crested, cockatoo?) but the dramatic tail plummage doesnt fit. The whorled "croc eyes" may be being clutched by the feet of the bird. Unclear what is under the chin.
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Old 12th March 2023, 03:23 AM   #9
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It just annoys me that I looked but didn't see!
I just embrace and laugh at this thing we call being human...
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Old 13th March 2023, 11:18 PM   #10
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Sorry that I lost my cool in my last thread. I read the older threads as suggested. and I got one of your recommended books from the library on its way.

I have something I would like to share about the imagery your looking at, just what I see.
I have done some research and think there is some interesting stuff that can be said..
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Old 14th March 2023, 12:58 PM   #11
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The primary interpretation certainly is flowers - these are commonly found on Madura carvings (coastal Chinese influence, I believe).

There certainly could be (and probably are) additional layers of symbolism added.

Regards,
Kai
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