Help with Keris ID?
 

I'm very glad to have found this forum. My name is Lee and I live in Texas.
Not long agp I was given this keris as a gift. Unfortunately the sheath was lost some time before I got the knife.
The previous caretaker had been under the impression that it was forged with meteorite iron, which I had thought fanciful until my fiancee found the info on these.Wow, it is possible.
I always try to find out as much as I can on my own, but need more help from experts, whoever is willing.
So far, I have ascertained that it is likely pre-19th Century due to the separate ganja and tang (?).
The balde is 14" long, and the handle is somekind of burl wood
This knife spent a long time in Iceland and was passed down through some generations there. An erroneous notion that it had been forged there was developed along the way, but I'm sure this is native Malaysian.
My questions that remain are:

What kind of Pamor is this, and the esoteric meaning?
Can the presence of metorite iron be determined from the appearance?
Any rough guesses on the date of forging?

On the pamor detail image, I enhanced the contrast to make it more visible.

Any help at all would be appreciated.While Paul page is amazingly informative, I could not determine the pamor from the descriptions.
Thanks!

The blade looks more Javanese than Malaysian due to its long slim profile.
The handle is unusual for a keris. The pamor is quite nice but is not clearly visible. First impression, looks like pamor wos wutah variant. The kembang kacang, (on the left side of the blade) is broken.

A full picture of the blade would be nice, so as to determine the dapur.
:)

littledirtnap :This does look like a very old and authentic knife ,but the hilt and blade dont match at all, the hilt looks like a gunong grip from the Philippines.

As to the meteorite question, this is one of those things that got mentioned one time in a book and now everybody thinks all keris are made from meteors.Aside from some testing of the content of the steel I dont think there is any way to tell.I seriously doubt that there are many keris that were actually made from meterites,and by many I mean very ,very ,very few.

the handle is most likely moro. it's posssible it's made out of banati wood. to be specific a gunong knife handle. there are some recent threads pertaining to gunongs. looks nice, tho...

I'll try to get better images on...srry no digital cam yet. I appreciate the input from all of you greatly!
I really want to know what this pamor means so I'll get better images of it on. The blade appears to have nine waves from hilt to tip..

Thanks for the help guys!
As much as I'd like to believe the folklore that has been passed along with it, that it was an athame forged in Iceland from meteorite iron, I'd rather know the truth as much as possible. If anything, I'm very excited that this knife traveled that much farther to reach me, and I am taking very good care of it. I am tossing the idea around of making a replica-type of sheath for it. If I do so, I'll research for some time before beginning.
Yes, this handle is beautiful, and seems to me a bit younger than the blade.

Iceland
 

Whoo , someone's got their geography mixed in the telling of the tale . :eek:

Pick up a copy of THE KRIS by Edward Frey from amazon.com
A very good place to start . :)

Use this site's search feature for keris ; that is mostly how we refer to them here .
You'll find a LOT of info .

Here is another try at decent images..hope this helps!

I'm dying to know what this pamor means, and the number of waves.I'll also keep reading on my own (thanks for the recommendations)

Sure does look like a Moro gunong handle. It's possible the "assembly" was made in Iceland, but it is worth noting that there is a thick layer of some kind of black substance between blade and hilt, and it sure does look like boiled down pitch. European cutler's pitch I've seen has a "blond" colour. I propose that this is an Indonesian blade traded/stolen/whatever to Moroland and hilted by a Moro?.....

Looking at it first hand, the black substance looks like a leather separator soaked in pitch..Thanks for the input!

Pamors
 

Pamors really don't 'mean' anything they are more talismanic in nature ; some are for wealth , success in business , popularity , control over others , protection etc.

There is no doubt that is a Moro gunong hilt and a nicely figured one .

Well everyone is giving you fairly correct info so i don't have much to add. This looks like an old Javanese keris with pretty good age to it. Unfortunately much of the ricikan (features) have been lost to erosion, probably from extensive washing.
Definitely a Moro gunong hilt, but i'm not sue if i agree with Tom that it was hilted by a Moro only because i think a Moro wouldn't find a blade like this all that useful. It is relatively frail compared to Moro blades and really only effective (this one at least) as a stabber. But then, who knows. :)
I agree with Rick that your pamor would have a specific "meaning" per se, but rather a more general nature.
Interesting mismatch of hilt and blade. I would suggest you get a "proper" hilt fot it, but then there seems to be some history working here, no matter how muddled, that should probably be preserved. :)

well, i know it's a 50/50 chance, but at the least whoever attached the gunong hilt on the blade had the knob facing the "right" way...

Good point. Certainly someone had a sense of what they were doing here. Though it seems they used far too much pitch to attach the blade. ;)

very interesting, 14" blade, "beak" instead of an elephant, the brass work on the ferrule is odd. the keris blade looks very old to me. wonder why the "spacer" between blade & ferrule, you would think the person that re-hilted it would have deepened the hole for the peksi, I would think if someone was going to use it for a weapon, they would have. if this keris did end up in Moroland, it might be Bugis, as the Moro were fond of the bigger keris they produced.

Bill, i'm pretty sure this isn't a "beak" instead of an "elephant trunk", but a case which is very common where there "trunk" has eroded away. The blade doesn't look particularly Bugis to me, the blade is too narrow and the gonjo too long, but then you never know. I believe the "spacer" between the hilt and blade is overflowing pitch.

The blade has 11 gentle luks, with pamor wos wutah or scattered rice variation.
Pamor wos wutah is believed to enhance the owner's material well being.

A proper washing in lime juice would bring back the visibility of the pamor pattern. However, with the hilt secured with thick pitch, it may be difficult to remove the hilt for a normal bath. Alternatively, it could be done with the hilt attached in a vertical position. ;)

Thank you all very much for this discussion!! I want to learn as much as possible, and this is the most info I've gotten on this particualr knife so far!
I'll be careful in cleaning it..I'm a little apprehensive of eroding it further..

I'm not sure I agree with me, either, especially if that is a leather spacer, which is an European custom. On the other hand, if it is just thick hard pitch resembling leather, as I can envision it doing, I still vote Moro mounting. In contrast to barongs or kris sundang, Moro gunongs often are rather thin-bladed, and though there are also thicker ones, I am not convinced that this relates directly to authenticity/intent to use/etc. So use of the relatively frail k(e)ris blade like this may not be inapropriate. I have seen also dagger sized Moro kris, of pretty Moro looking work etc. but have never read or heard much about them; just that I know there is a tradition of dagger sized kris in Moroland. The only other thing I'd like to add is that I think a deeper understanding of gunong and some pedangs is that they are lower-teir versions of k(e)ris; they could typically be made by any smith (kris and k(e)ris often had laws and traditions restricting this), carried by any person (ditto), used for any purpose (ditto), made without the rituals or complications (seperate gonga, okar) of kris/k(e)ris, and of simpler materials, but with much the same handling style.
So, very broadly it is a proper hilt, and for all that the cavity is likely much wider than the tang, and perhaps shorter (I don't think the handle was made for it, or it would fit all the way in; I think the assembly is after market for both parts), I don't think I'd rehilt it if it is solidly together, at least. Now, I'm back to look at the ferule, and see if I agree that there's something unusual about it; I don't remember anything....

Ferule looks pretty normal to me?
Only the lightest of etches, probably a wipe with vinegar or half a fruit (wash, dry well, and oil afterwards), would remove that light rust; the surface is basically clean and clearly etched already. To bring up the pamor significantly better would involve staining, so some layers are black and others silvery. This is a process involving arsenic :eek: Some forum members have some knowledge of the matter though, and can maybe advise you further.

Now that you mention it Tom, that could indeed be a leather spacer. I was unfamilar with the European tradition. Thanks for the info. :)

I really appreciate all the input!! This helps me a great deal, as this is my first Keris, and I'd like to treat it with proper care.

The spacer is unmistakable as a small circle of leather, soaked in pitch(?).Of this I am sure. It is clearly layered from a first hand view, and has the fibrous characteristic where worn, and worn to lighter brown in small areas.

I will be leaving the hilt as is, as it is tight and I have no desire to change anything. I will, however, carefully clean it.

I am very glad that my asking here has produced this much discussion, and I'll take any and all I can get, and take all into consideration.

Thanks!!

Your blade pamor pattern is beautiful. Have a look here for some ideas on how it is traditionally cleaned. ;)

There are two places where you can see such leather washers on modern traditional European work. First is on fighting swords, where there is sometimes a leather or felt washer/spacer similar in size and shape to Japanese seppa between guard and blade. The other is on tanged woodworking chisels. On the swords it is usually cited as being for tight/quiet sheath-fit, though I don't know that this is its true descent; on the chisels it is held to absorb shock thru the forged bolster, padding the wood and metal from each other. A fairly integral part of this method is that the hole is longer than the tang, so all the stress goes to the end of the handle, rather than the end of the hole (there is usually a significant wedgeness to the tang, but let us leave that for now). These chisels have a square or octagonal tang otherwise rather similar to a k(e)ris tang, and a forged bolster, so this might have made sense to an European person as a way to hilt such a blade......

Thank you both! I'll pick an evening soon and clean it..I think it would be pretty cool if it were hilted in Iceland :)

Sorry to contradict an expert but this blade is not from Jawa. It is either Bugis or Sumatran. As for the pamor, it seems to be Pedaringan Kebak (Full Airing Cupboards) which is the same as beras-wutah, kulit-semangka, only with even more 'pamor'...which in the case of Sumatra and Bugis blades, most often is pamor Luwu, from nikel-rich iron mined since old times in Luwu, Sulawesi.

No contradiction . ;)
When it comes to keris we are all students . :)
Thanks for your input Kiai . :)

Hi Kiai. Rick's right, we are all students here. If you find that someone disagrees with you now and then it is not because they consider themselves an expert...or even smarter than you. It is just that they disagree. Very little, especially in the keris world, is ever written in stone. :)
As for your Sumatran attribution, i think you might be on to something there, but i still can see this as a Bugis keris. I could be wrong. Afterall, i'm no expert. ;)
I look forward to your knowledgable comments on this and other threads. Would you care to venture a guess at the tangguh of this blade?

Yes, more please! I'm excited to hear any thoughts anyone has. Any guesses on age?

Hi Kiai Carita,
No contradition here...;)
After gazing the blade for a long time, I don't think it's a Bugis blade. However, I do agree that it might be a Sumatran blade due to its gentle luks and the shape of sogokan depan, sogokan belakang, janur and bungkul (the centre portion of the lower half near the base of the blade). Thank you for the update, Kiai.:)
Nechesh, I'm no expert either..:confused: .

If I were to guess, the hilt looks to be 20thC; because of the brass work, shape & condition. The "spacer" (quite a mystry why it is even here) if leather, I don't know; if its really hemp & pitch, my guess would be that it was re-hilted in Mindanao. My knowledge of the keris is very little. The bawah, (this form) I assume by most of what I have seen posted is always suppose to be an elephant head. I wonder if this is true. When the Portuguese arrive in Celebes, it is noted all the men carry a keris. Anyone have any idea of what one of these keris would look like? 14", the dapor, the bawah, & nickle content; could this be 16 or 17thC Bugis?

Hi Bill. This blade certainly is old. Though judging tangguh is not my strong point it is my understanding that the erasure of various elements of the ricikan from years of blade erosion would make it more difficult to place this keris in a specific period. But i wouldn't be surprised if it were indeed 17thC.
The profile seen in the gandik of a keris is definitly not always supposed to be an "elephant head". I put this in quotes because AFAIK there is no definitive proof that it is indeed supposed to be an actual elephant. But you also see keris (more rarely) with nagas and singos. I recently saw bali blade with a human face in this position. A seated human can rarely be seen as well. A birds had is not one i recall ever seeing and i am fairly positive that the keris in question was indeed intended to be an "elephant head" that has eroded away.
I would still be more likely to see this blade as Sumatran or Javanese before Bugis. It's slender form and general profile does not appear Bugis to me.

I'm assuming that the original smith is likely to make his own tools. His limitations are going to be of both skill & tools. Although other craftsmen may have been involved in file work, I would think that would be on pieces of more value. I recall reading that in one Bone city alone of an estimate of over 200 smiths. Not all of these smiths would be making keris, but there must have been a number of smiths, of various degrees, one could commission a keris. If one could not afford good file work, you might have to settle for a "beak" or whatever it is, I'm sure it was of some importance to someone. It really doesn't look like much more was ever there, more cheisel work, than file work. The "Luwa" may well have been the norm, of the metal used when this piece was made. The 14" blade strikes me as keris that would be carried by someone who needed a weapon, maybe even more than a spritual aid.

Bill, are you going somewhere with this beak theory, or just trying to be contrary? There is nothing about this keris that implies a smith that was unable to create a proper kembang kacang. While this keris is certain no master work, it had a competent hand. The "beak" is the result of time and acid washings. There were probably well executed ron da originally and they are worn away as well.
Pamor luwu was used on the keris of many islands as Sulawesi was a main supplier of nickelous iron.

My only "beak" theory is that it is done with a cheisel & little file work. If this was done in Java, it would seem a waste of besi iron, since it appears that more brittle Chinese iron would be used on a lesser piece. On the other hand it seems likely this type of iron would be used in both high end and low end pieces if it were done in Sulawesi, as it appears Sulawesi did not import iron 16-17C. I get the feeling that this keris is more village smith made than by some center of iron work. I have no strong argument that this is Bugis, but for what is already mentioned, I would tend to favor them for origin.

Some experience about Tangguh / keris' origin
 

Hi everyone,

IMHO, Tangguh (determining/judging the keris' origin/age) is the hardest exoteric knowledges in keris world. In Java, tangguh usually attributed to a kingdom, in some cases, to a king, or even more, to the empu him/herselves. Some elders in Java thought, Tangguh might means the keris' ages and origin, but also might means the style of certain kingdom which could be copied by other empus (keris makers) from other era. They introduced the term "Toya" (water), which means the water used to temper the blade, to describe the previous style which has been copied to the next era. In fact, for certain tangguh, the younger tangguh might be considered as the perfection of the older style. This could be happened by the "Mutrani" process (to make putra/son, which is, copying the previous invaluable heirlooms) done inside the court.

To determine the tangguh, ones must look very carefully to the overall and details shape of the blade, the materials used, and also the technique employed by the empu to make the blade. Then, ones must also consider the "look/feel" of kerises, known as "Pasikutan" in Java. For instance, the Mataram blades should feel as if you see the handsome young knight, standing tall in front of you, while the Majapahit blades should be "wingit", as if you look at the haunted house :D or a holy priest. To feel it, you need no mantras or fasting for days, just look and feel it, just like you look and feel the unfaithful face :D

Some styles may influence another and mixed, but still there are the differences. One important point the inexperienced students usually forgot, not all kerises' tangguh could be determined, simply because the empu's skill/knowledge was too low, or the lack of materials needed. These unfortunate even usually happened to "empu jawi" (empu outside the court) which made kerises for commoners. Judging such kerises might be very frustating, so some elders in Java introduced one more term : "Tilar Tangguh" (which literally means leaving the tangguh, which is, not comply with any tangguh pattern already known), contrary to "Tangguh Lempoh" (comply with nearly all criteria, if not whole, for certain tangguh).

About the blade in discussion,
I must agree with Alam Shah and others, that it's more likely to be Javanese blade. Bugis' blades tend to be thicker, wider awak-awak but narrower sor-soran, with thicker ganja and bigger ganja's head / sirah cecak.
The thin and slightly curved ganja (sebit lontar) and the pamor on the blade in discussion shows Mataram influences ( c.a. XVII cent. ), but the luks/waves are too shallow for typical Mataram blades. the sogokan are very rough, so for me, it's raised a question, wheter it was made by empu himself or later by the owner/other unskilled smith. The sekar kacang had broken. The crow-beak-shaped sekar kacang very uncommon for 11 luk, and usually reserved for high-rank court official. The dhapur which use beaked-sekar kacang are Pasopati (straight blade), Megantara (7 luk) and Paniwen (7/9 luk ? sorry, I can recall. Got to open the book, too many dhapur for my tiny brain :D ) and several others. To determine the sekar kacang is original crow beak or broken trunk, just look at the tip of the ganja head and draw the imaginary perpendicular line. The beaked-sekar kacang must nearly touching the line, if not, it might be the elephant trunk which had been broken.

I must admit that the keris knowledge I've learnt was only from Java, especially from the elders in Jogjakarta. Many of the knowledges unwritten, so if you ask me to show the book, I would show you the living book :D. Although I've seen some Bali, Bugis and Sumatra blades, I would consider myself inexperience on them. Like Rick said, we are all students here. The more I learn, the more I know that I knew nothing.