The Latin oriens / orientis, "east", as opposed to occidens / occidentis "west", derive from the verbs orire and occidere, "to rise" and "to set" respectively, in reference to the movement of the sun. One would think that cardinal directions and astronomical phenomena are pretty neutral concepts.

People will always attach baggage to words and labels. In the US, the term "Southerner" inspires certain knee-jerk connotations with a lot of people who are not from south of the Mason-Dixon line.

Geographic fuzziness
 

Usage as a geographic and cultural identifier has indeed been rather loosey-goosey depending on place, time, and individual. For a long time in Europe and Britain, "Oriental" seems to have been primarily associated with the Middle East and India, and "the Far East" to the rest of Asia. Some auctions still categorize their lots using this approach. Kilijs and kulah-khuds being Oriental arms, whereas keris, katanas, and dhas being Far Eastern / Fernost, Extrême-Orient. In the US, I've noted that the term Oriental, in the popular conception, is most associated with the Far East and the term is still accepted among the expat Korean and Filipino communities here.

Note that Robert Hales' lavish picture book, his career retrospective, is entitled Islamic and Oriental Arms and Armour: A Lifetime's Passion. Nothing wrong with covering all the bases.

Interesting to note the changing fashions in some ethnic labels in American English usage. In the 19th cent., the term "Dutchman" was often applied to Germans (who after all hailed from Deutschland), and it became a somewhat pejorative term.

For most of our history, African Americans were officially labeled Negroes (from Latin niger, "black" ) but aside from continuing usage in reference to Negro spirituals (songs) and the former Negro League (baseball) it has fallen out of general usage due to its phonetic similarity with its repugnant derivative. However, the term Negro is still used in common speech, along with Black, in Europe and the UK perhaps because of differing historical realities. I don't know anyone from across the pond who uses the term "African-American".

As I noted in another post, the term Oriental has not been universally condemned in US Asian communities. It's still used among Asians in Hawaii, and to identify products and organizations (including churches) among Korean and Filipino immigrant communities. However, some "progressively minded" people do bristle... I recall one ChineseAmerican female author, during an interview, indignantly blurt out "...well, I am NOT a carpet!" PC can be a minefield...

bag pipes and the Celtic heritage
 

Yes, you are spot on. The bagpipes, thought to be a legacy of the great Celtic migrations across Europe BCE, were a popular instrument, particularly among the common folk, across the Continent. In Germany they are known as the Düdelsack, in Italy, zampogna.

One of my most vivid memories of Spain was a trip, decades ago, to attend the Fiesta de Santiago de Compostela, in Galicia, the northwest corner of the country which has been a Celtic cultural stronghold for centuries. Never conquered by the Romans nor the Moors... The gaita gallega is the traditional instrument there, mouth-blown like the Scots Highland piob-mor though somewhat smaller and with fewer drone pipes, played by bands marching through the streets with drums, around the Cathedral.

An interesting thing, archaeologically, is the discovery of numerous stone boars in that region and in northern Portugal -- worshiped by the pre-Christian Celt-Iberian inhabitants as symbols of courage, much as did the Celts who fought the Romans, blowing their war-trumpets made of bronze, fashioned with open tusked boars' mouths instead of a funnel shape.

sword rain-chape
 

Very interesting print, thanks for sharing it. Viewed in conjunction with "Sol Justitia" in post 13, it's significant in that the swords are depicted with the leather or metal rain-covers on their crossguards, to keep moisture out when the weapon is sheathed. This, of course, is very seldom seen intact on extant medieval and Renaissance swords due to their fragility. Another reason why period work by noted artists is so useful for documentary purposes.

For those wanting to see the real thing, there are a couple of Italian swords of the period published in Boccia/Coelho, Armi Bianche Italiane (1975). I believe Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword may have a few more examples of hilts with intact chapes as well.

peasant knife
 

Reminds me of a mini-falchion blade. The profile is almost a spitting image of the one on p 224 of Stone's Glossary... which is identified as German, 15th cent. (Metropolitan Museum of Art).

Cannon
 

There is a strong likelihood that the workshop also produced a very similar cannon for King Sigismund I of Poland, used by his joint Polish-Lithuanian forces in the battle of Orsza (Orsha) in Byelorussia, 1514, in which a Muscovite army was defeated. The battle, and the weapon, are memorialized in the gigantic oil painting "Battle of Orsha", now in the Muzeum Narodowe in Warsaw. The late arms and art historian Prof. Zdzislaw Zygulski wrote a magisterial article on this work of art, and discusses the cannon in relation to the one in Dürer's 1518 print, in "The Battle of Orsha" , in Robert Held (ed) Art, Arms, and Armour (1979), if you wish to explore the topic further.

St. Bart was martyred by being flayed alive. He is often depicted holding a skinning or flensing knife and also wrapped in his own skin. The texture of the 'garment' may well indicate some type of 'leather'. If I wanted to trademark a blade with an icon symbolizing a keen edge, I might choose to borrow from the iconography of St. Bartholomew.

St Simon the Apostle, aka Simon the Zealot
 

He is believe to have flourished in the 1st cent. AD, and is mentioned in the Gospel of Luke as "Simon the Zealot" for his reputed membership in that Jewish nationalist movement. There is an apocryphal book, Acts of Simon, that is not contained in the New Testament.

The implement is indeed a saw, he was martyred by being sawn in half. The place of his demise is not certain, variously placed in Greece or Persia.

As we've discussed in your previous excellent thread on the Nürnberg Chronicles, religious iconography of the era often depicted Saints with the instruments of their martyrdom -- such as Catherine and the spiked wheel, Sebastian with arrows, and Lawrence holding or standing next to the gridiron on which he was roasted.

halberd
 

There must have been quite a trade in ostrich feathers in those days. All the way from Africa -- the well-to-do have throughout history managed to get their hands on imported luxuries from afar, whether they be porcelains from China or peppercorns and cloves from India.

Dürer's works are an invaluable documentary source for the arms and costume of his time. The profile of the halberd's ax blade, along with the protruding flanges flanking the pointed beak, clearly match the styles catalogued by Ewart Oakeshott as falling within the period 1450-1520, closely approximating the artist's lifespan. See Oakeshott's European Weapons and Armour pp 46-48 for an illustration of the weapon's evolution and of its principal regional styles in the South German / Swiss / northern Italian territories.

Indeed. :shrug:

I agree with the perfect description 'baggage' to words and labels!!!
When I moved from California to Tennessee, I recall the locals commenting to each other when one called me a 'yankee'.
The other said, "nah, he's from California, he aint nuthin'" in a drawl from the holler I could barely understand :)

As they would say here in Texas (didnt bother me none though).

Shayde, I just wanted to thank you for entering these, and especially for placing them as separate entries so we can discuss each individually. It is much easier than trying to refer to a long block of images of different works.
It is a very thoughtful thing to take the time to add these great works of Durer, who I think was an amazing artist with the detail in his illustration (especially in the arms) and the context.

These always remind me of the intriguing and mysterious illustrations in the Johnny Depp movie "The Ninth Gate" in thier character.

No tuition needed here :) we all learn together and from each other. :)

Tools and weapons have always run close parallels, and often the rank and file in assembled forces were simply peasant farmers and the like who wielded whatever tools or implements they had at hand. Many weapons, especially many pole arms were made from or designed from bill hooks and tools of this kind.

The serrated blades of the swords used by the sappers etc in military forces were of course used as saws as well as a weapon as required.

As noted in post #35 re: hand holding a dagger

Re: Post 32, landscape with cannon, 1518
Added coat of arms of Nuremberg as depicted on cannon.

This was apparently one of a number of 'iron plates' and depicting curiously a group of Ottomans around an outdated cannon from Nuremberg. At this time Maximilian I, Holy Roman emperor was calling for a crusade against the Turks, which did not materialize. The symbolism in the work is unclear.

"Five Landsknechts and an Oriental" 1495
 

In post #1, this Durer engraving depicts as titled, five landsknechts and an oriental.
The landsknechts were actually German mercenaries who used Swiss fighting methods and arms from the latter 15th century. The most discernible weapon is the 'halberd' poleaxe here.

It is curious why the 'oriental' person is included here, but it seems that Durer was profoundly influenced by Italian Renaissance art. Attached is a painting of Mehmed II by Bellini from 1480 (note the addition of the crowns in background reflecting the same conventions of these addendums in Durer's work).
Durer had traveled to Italy in 1494 just as the Italian wars were beginning and surely saw the forces involved assembled at places.

It seems that Renaissance artists had a fascination with 'oriental' figures, which Durer adopted as well. He added an oriental figure to his own coat of arms, and this affectation seems a sort of 'exotica' which he seems to have been drawn to.

The weapon most discernible here is the Swiss halberd held by the figure at far right. The hook at the back of the axe head was to pull a rider from his horse.

"Peasant and Wife" 1519
 

This work from post #33 here, is intriguing as the hilt style is noted.

What is remarkable here is that this hilt style appears to be of the 'karabela' form, which did not become known until around 17th century in Poland and Hungary. It is believed that the style was adopted from Ottoman sabers, but their exact origins and when they were used remains unclear.
Here it is remarkable to see this hilt style in this work of 1519, well over a century before it became known in Eastern Europe.

Again, it would seem the attraction to 'oriental' (i.e. Ottoman) imagery is apparent.

Hi Jim,
I'm not sure this has anything to do with Karabela forms. The farmers knife or Bauernwehr was well established in Europe and as I see it this is the type of knife the man is wearing.
My Regards,
Norman.

Well, if the interview took place in my (European) neck of the woods, the lady would be Asian, having finished eating in an Asian Restaurant, which was situated in the Oriental part of the city ;).

Thanks Norman, purely a free association, but the similarity is keen in my view. I am not too familiar with the knives you describe so did not take that into account. It seemed interesting though that this form hilt which appeared in either Iraq or these areas at undetermined period.

Digressing ...
 

:o Apparently now evidenced as being an earlier instrument, in all its variants, according to those who claim the "Celtic myth", after finding that bagpipes developed their own distinct path, as early as cited in Biblic texts (Prophet Daniel, circa 600 BC.).

Not forgetting the Swedish säckpipa, for another ... also probably not so early.

As you unfortunately missed our gathering over here a few months ago, Filipe, you had no opportunity to check on "gaitas de foles" also playing in Portugal, some even in regions distant from Galician lands, these in slighly different variants ;) :shrug:.

To my mind the man is wearing a form of Messer (Germanic type of single edge knife) as Norman mentioned, which would be a smaller and shorter version of Langes/Grosses or Kriegs Messer. This was a form of Bauernwehr (farmer sidearm) which was popular across all classes at the time. The Messers did not have pommels but often had a ”beak” at the end of the hilt to prevent it from slipping out of the hand. Don’t know how old these Messers are but wouldn’t rule out origins from migration age like the scramaseax.

Now that Jim mentions it the pommel looks rather similar to the karabela. It’s commonly assumed that the karabela has Oriental/Ottoman origins but maybe the hilt form comes from the Langes Messer (Germanic).

I note that the oriental is carrying a sword and looks military. What would he be doing with the Landsknechts? He might be a Stradioti (light cavalry mercenary from Ottoman provinces in Albania/Greece/Serbia) most of whom were Christian but also some muslims. Orthodox Christians in Ottoman lands seemed to have largely adopted Ottoman dress and arms and might in some cases have worn turbans.

Thank you for the note on the karabela resemblance, in the example in the illustration discussed, which indeed has a pommel with a sort of undulation as the later form of karabelas which often appeared almost trilobate.

The hilt pictured of the messer suggests these types of weapon had the hook or beak in degree but with smooth bird head type pommel surface.

Very good points on the Stradioti, who were apparently much of the basis for European light cavalry. These multiple ethnic groups, the forerunners of the notorious pandours who were auxiliary forces to Austria and later other European armies.
The 'exotic' oriental fashions were intended to look more fearsome given the 'wild' reputation of these groups of horsemen. Many Balkan regions were very ethnically diverse as noted.

As the Landsknechts themselves were mercenaries of course, it does not seem unreasonable that these 'oriental' appearing (if not indeed ethnically so) horsemen would have been assembled as part of forces about to join in impending campaign.

That's funny, Jim -- a friend in NC occasionally calls me a Yankee when I tell him something that doesn't fit in with his notions and beliefs. However, my response is that if you take the Mason-Dixon Line, and extrapolate it all the way across the country to the Pacific, California (or at least my patch of it), lies well to the south of it. And I never tire of telling such folks that our neighboring Orange County was once part of Los Angeles County until it SECEDED in the late 19th cent. Many of the inhabitants thereof were Confederate vets who migrated and settled there after 1865, and, well, they just had this sentiment in their blood... There is in fact a Confederate soldiers cemetery in the county, with a monument dedicated to these brave souls. I know this gal who has Southern roots, she's a musician and is recruited each year for an impromptu band to play "Dixie" on Confederate Memorial Day. OMG, wait til the guardians of PC hear about THAT!

Yeah, California ain't nothin'. Knew another chap, from a Boston Brahmin family, who thought the West Coast lay beyond the borders of the US and joked that he should carry his passport when going to San Fran. And wondered what currency is used in Hawaii and Alaska.

Messers (German for knife) in different forms of Bauernwehr (farmer’s arms) are covered in this excellent post from 2012: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15053. It’s believed that the Langes/Grosses Messer grew out of the common farmer’s knife. They were presumably cheaper to produce and required less training to use than knightly swords. Apparently many Landsknechts were originally farmers. From memory there were distictions in terms of guilds in who was allowed to produce knives and who was allowed to produce and market swords.

If I remember correctly Apollo was an archer also, he and Artemis were twins after all. Besides real arrows his arrows in the Iliad were disease.

rain chapes revisited
 

Here's an example of what I was talking about in my previous post on the topic, and which is illustrated in the prints in Posts 13 and 25. 'Just found this image while browsing Boccia/Coelho, Armi Bianche Italiane.

A rain-guard of leather, but in this case of metal, between the grip and crossguard, with projecting flanges on each face which go over the scabbard mouth and keep the dirt and moisture out. A fragile component that is missing on 99.9% of surviving swords. This one, on an estoc attributed by pommel markings to Estorre Visconti, Lord of Milan (died 1413). The fragility of these chapes is exemplified by the fact that on this one, the flange on the reverse side has long since been broken off.