Total length 19 inches, blade 10 inches long and 2 inches wide

Can we see the transversal bars pleeease?

I dont think you are far from the correct date, as from the pictures I have seen so far, my guess would have been the same. It seems to be a very nice, but locally made katar, so now I hope for better pictures/details.

Yes there are a number of spear heads of this form, see Elgood: Hindu Arms and Ritual, p. 192, and yes they are south Indian. Sorry Mahratt, I know that not all have the book, but as there is copyright on the pictures, I dont like to show this one.

What I had in mind when I started the link was more like this.
There are a lot of peacocks, but to find them, you either need my catalogue, or to look after what peacocks looked like in the late 16th or early 17th century.

Unfortunately, it turned out that I - bad photographer;) And I can’t take a good picture of my кatar.
But, I found my кatar on the website of Artzi Yarom (аlthough he did get into my modest collection not from Artzi). So I decided to put a photo and description from the Artzi website:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2351
"Kаttar push dagger, North India, probably late 18 C or there about. The heavy blade 10 inches long and 2 inches wide is forged from fine Indian wootz steel ( crystalline) and finely chiseled with hunting scenes on both sides: Tigers, elephants and horse riders. Heavy armor piercing tip. Total length 19 inches".
I think no one will have any doubt that Artzi saw wootz on the blade of this кatar?
The only thing I disagree with is the dating of кatar - the late 18th century. I think that my кatar can be dated to the first half - the middle of the 19th century.

Well dealers have to sell so they are always optimistics...
19th c is reasonnable, look at this one in the British museums
Acquired by King Edward VII, when Prince of Wales, during his tour of India in 1875-76.
You have a nice katar by the way

:)

Thank you!
The dating of my кatar with the 19th century, and not with the 18th century, does not bother me. I am not trying to find "very old unique rarities";)

An interesting Indian bazuband from the collection of my friend.

Its a very nice bazuband.
I have often wondered how they, with the primitive tools they had, were able to make these steel cuttings.


For those of you who like riddles. Have a look at the pata I showed. There are a lot of peacocks at the edge of the gauntlet. If you dont see them, look for how the peacocks were shown in the 16th to 17th century.

Encouraged by Jens on a separate thread, I have decided to post the only Indian piece I own with cut steel decoration.

A modest tulwar, sadly missing the pommel disc. The blade is a decent size; 77cm long and the piece weighs 670grams, but the handle is absolutely tiny, with only 7cm of room for the hand.

I would be very interested in any comments.

Silver John, thank you very much for posting:-).


Is the hilt silver plated - or was it?
Its interesting to think of, how much this hilt have been used to be worn like it is. A grip of the size of 7 cm does not surprise me, as I think most grips are about this size. The missing disc is interesting, but have relatively often been seen.
Intersting blade, which could be European, or maybe an Indian copy, as these stamps were copied a lot in India.

We see the removed disks quite often, I suspect they get removed deliberately by owners who either have larger hands or prefer a more western sabre cutting style.

That was Tirri’s idea.
Yes, from time to time we do see Tulwars with no pommel disk. But we see many, many more with semi-attached wobbly disks, some even with signs of attempted brazing. There is no way to exclude deliberate removal of disks from time to time, but IMHO in the majority of cases it was an unintended loss due to forging defect/poor craftsmanship.

Yes I agree... they were badly smelted.
Disks are important to keep the sword well in hand.
or disks were removed as demilitarized equipment - in short to not beeing used...against British or others...

"A grip of the size of 7 cm does not surprise m"

As Jens wrote it's common and it's very handy as your hand is really stuck between the guard and the disk...might have been useful in a battle...

Yes Ariel is right, that was Tirri's theory - and so far we dont know if it is correct.


Kubur, the thing about the handle was not from me, but from Krochew #52.


Anyway, missing disc or not, lets have a look at the tulwar.
The hilt is very vorn, and the blade seems to be quite old as well - so how old would you think it is?
To be save, I would say early 18th century, but it could be older. Bids are open :-).

Paul writes in his book that the pommel disk was there for a purpose: it created a very tight grip, and this tightness resulted in the emotion of “josh”, something that can be loosely explained as aggressiveness, daring, absence of fear. Perhaps, a better translation would be “amok” or “berserk”.
Perhaps.
Realistically, tight grip and the disk immobilized wrist movements, forcing the fighter to slash from the elbow or the shoulder. As a result, in conjunction with curved Tulwar profile, it essentially eliminated the possibility of stabbing movements. This was repeatedly stressed by European travelers.

In part, this limitation could be more or less overcome by curving the index finger over the quillon or by the European “ thumb ring” . But then, which finger are you more willing to sacrifice?

It’s hard to tell, the entire handle was a rusty brown when I bought it. I have rubbed it down with 000 wire wool as mineral oil which has revealed a few tiny flecks of gold at the edge of one of the motiefs, but no obvious silver yet. I still have some cleaning to do, so I might find some yet.

Indeed! And I photographed the “good” side, the other is far more worn. It’s almost impossible to see in the picture, but the same pattern that is near the cross guard is also on the palm swell of the handle, just much more faint. An arrangement of flowers in rows, 1,2,3,2.

I had wondered about that. The blade has Indian features like the stepped spine and large ricasso. I had hoped to reveal a pattern in the blade by etching it, but my initial test panel did not reveal anything at all. Perhaps it is European and so no pattern is to be found?, or perhaps I just need to use a different acid for etching.

Many thanks for the comments!

Just to add to the examples in this thread, here are three pieces I have with cut steel decoration; a pata and bara jamdadu, both from the 17th century, and an early 19th century pata. All of them have floral/vegetal decoration of some sort, though the 19th c pata is quite an exception as it has both a zoomorphic "face" as well as a makara on either side of the gauntlet. The bara jamdadu also probably has a stylized pair of peacocks on it somewhere :)

cut Steel hilts were popular on court/mourning swords early 19c too, I wonder if they aquired a teaste for it from the Indian portion of the Empire...

Nihl, it is very nice steel cut decora tions on your patas.


Hindus and Muslims both used floral decoration, but not for the same reason.
To the Muslims it was pure decoration, but to the Hindus it was often a representation of a diety.


Kronckew, yes the Europeans also used steel cut decoration, but I dont think they used it as much as the Indians.

Wow, nice pieces, all.

Jens, I must admit I can't find anything that's definitively a peacock on your pata. I can imagine them all over, but anything that might be a peacock I could imagine to be just about anything else as well.

And, sadly nothing in my collection has good carved steel decoration. The closest I come is some wrenched panels on hafts. But I'm really enjoying seeing all of your lovely carved steel weapons.

This might help you to find the peacocks.

Carved steel zaghnal
 

I found one item in my collection that has some figural carving, so here's a photo. The carving is fairly crude and heavily worn, so not exactly a beauty piece.

And thanks for the explanation of the peacocks, Jens. I see real peacocks a few times a week so that's probably what was throwing me off.

The peacocks
nice to see
horrible to hear
like my ex-wife
:)

Well, when you have to do with old weapons, you will have to study how the different forms, like animals, were shown at the time - but it seems as if none of you did so, what a pity. However, I am glad that you now see it, and hopefully have learned from this exercise:-).

interesting!

My zaghnol on a very similar motif: As sold, cleaned up a bit after tho.

My Aradam ( blade serrated on both edges, if on one edge only, it is an Arapusta)
Mechanical damascus. I would date it to 18 century, but would like to hear opinions

And here is my Khyber ( Selavah). A relatively small one, with blade 15 1/4"
Very careful, complex and deep chiseling with subsequent gilding on both sides. As per Jens' assessment, it is of Indian manufacture ( at least the decoration) and of high quality . He cautiously dated it to 18 century, perhaps earlier.
I would be grateful to him for a yet another look and a master class in dating/ attribution. Of course , everybody else is invited.

Nice, kronckew. Looks like a thick and useful blade, unlike my zaghnal which is surprisingly delicate.
I have another zaghnal which is rather similarly made, but doesn't qualify for this cut steel decoration thread, being brass.

That's an amazingly intricate khyber knife, ariel. I wouldn't hazard a guess at dates for either of your pieces; I have more enthusiasm than knowledge where these things are concerned.

Really interesting on the tulwar how the serrations aren't present on the belly of the blade; I wonder if that was a practical or aesthetic decision? Not that I expect that's knowable.

My personal guess, not supported by any factual knowledge is that the working segment of the Aradam blade was left not serrated for practical purposes, to optimize its slashing ability. The rest was for show, to unnerve the opponent. Serrated blades are great for cutting but require a lot of to-and-fro movements. Their wounds leave a lot of tissue fragment without good blood supply and as such easily susceptible for necrosis and late infection. But that requires days, and at the battlefield you want to finish your opponent right then and there, with a single blow.