Katzbalgers and Related Landsknecht Swords

[Matchlock]

From the highly specialized collection of a friend of mine.

20 year old photos, sadly.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Here they are.

[Matchlock]

Finally.

[Matchlock]

More details.

[Matchlock]

100 year old photos Katzbalgers in the Dresden Armory.

[Matchlock]

Early 16th century sources of illustration.

[Matchlock]

More.

[Matchlock]

From a Resurrection Altar scene dated 1519, painted by Jörg Ratgeb, who was a Landsknecht leader himself and was executed by being torn apart by four horses in Pforzheim in 1526.

[Matchlock]

All in the German Historic Museum (DHM) Berlin.

The scans are taken from old German Democratic Republic photos.

Michael

[Matchlock]

One more detail.

[Matchlock]

A Landsknecht with his Katzbalger and a harquebusier with powder horn and what seems to be a tiller stocked bronze barrel gun.

Details from the Resurrection scene on the so called Herscheider Altar Piece, early 16th century, now preserved at the Museum of Burg (castle) Altena, Westphalia.

Michael

[broadaxe]

Very interesting pics, they show the diversity of the katzbalger. I'm interested in particular with (the rather unusual) curved versions and the longer, two-handed katzbalger. Here are pics of such, taken at the Hussar Museum in Eger, Hungary, and a pic of a Hungarian broad sword, fitted with what might be a katzbalger's blade.

[kisak]

I'm interested in particular with (the rather unusual) curved versions

I know of one such sword having been found in Sweden (Västerås), a modern copy can be seen here: http://histvarld.historiska.se/histvarld/draekter/1520lknekt/landskn_balte.html
http://histvarld.historiska.se/histvarld/draekter/1520lknekt/i/5_balte_svard/IMG_2948.jpg

Summing up the information in the text, it's believed to be from ca 1520-30, is of bastard sword size, and marries a grosse messer blade to a katzbalger guard. The original grip was lost, and this one is a guess based upon a similar messer in the Wallace collection. Probably German in origin. It's called kaninholmssabeln ("the Kaninholm saber"),which I guess could mean that it was found at an island known as Kaninholmen.

[Matchlock]

I know of one such sword having been found in Sweden (Västerås), a modern copy can be seen here: http://histvarld.historiska.se/histvarld/draekter/1520lknekt/landskn_balte.html
http://histvarld.historiska.se/histvarld/draekter/1520lknekt/i/5_balte_svard/IMG_2948.jpg

Summing up the information in the text, it's believed to be from ca 1520-30, is of bastard sword size, and marries a grosse messer blade to a katzbalger guard. The original grip was lost, and this one is a guess based upon a similar messer in the Wallace collection. Probably German in origin. It's called kaninholmssabeln ("the Kaninholm saber"),which I guess could mean that it was found at an island known as Kaninholmen.


Kisak,

Could you please post pictures of the original piece and let us know where it is preserved?

Sorry but I have never relied on replicas as a basis for substantial assessment. In most cases they prove to be nothing but relatively free interpretations of the originals and give way to fantasy, which is far from scholarly treatment. I am not saying that the piece you posted cannot be an exemption to the rule and be quite an exact copy but I'd still like to see images of the "real" thing.

Michael

[broadaxe]

Kisak, I would like very much to see a pic of the original piece. The replica in the link is weird, to say the least: very plain hilt, blade looks somewhat japanese (!). I'm not suggesting it is a fantasy piece but we do have to see the original.

[kisak]

I'm afraid I haven't been able to track down any photographs of the original (wouldn't mind seeing them myself). As the link goes to a site maintained by the Historical Museum in Stockholm I doubt the sword is fabricated entirely, but of course it's not exactly a solid source either.

[Gonzalo G]

!Very interesting material! Thank you, Matchlock! You always bring good documental contributions.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Matchlock]

Thank you, Gonzalo,

Historic sources of illustration are the most important thing when it comes to research and dating of original pieces.

Michael

[Matchlock]

A very good Katzbalger, ca. 1500-10, retaining its original blackened hilt, the blade struck with a Gothic minuscule p mark, overall length 118 cm (!).

Provenance: Sotheby's London, June 20, 1929 (800 USD), bought by Wiliam Randolph Hearst and sold again Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, Switzerland, Nov 27, 1961, lot 33 (estimate 2,500 SFr; I do not know what it went for).

Michael

[celtan]

Is this P related to the one we often see in Swedish blades?

Manuel


A very good Katzbalger, ca. 1500-10, retaining its original blackened hilt, the blade struck with a Gothic minuscule p mark, overall length 118 cm (!).

Provenance: Sotheby's London, June 20, 1929 (800 USD), bought by Wiliam Randolph Hearst and sold again Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, Switzerland, Nov 27, 1961, lot 33 (estimate 2,500 SFr; I do not know what it went for).

Michael

[Matchlock]

Could you please post an example of the Swedish P, Manuel, and give a date for the blade(s)?

Michael

[celtan]

Most certainly, my good sir. Your wish is my command: c. Late 19th C. 1748 -1800s

: )

Manuel

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Swedish%20Huggare%20M1748/CIMG1697.jpghttp://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Swedish%20Huggare%20M1748/HuggareM17484.jpghttp://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Swedish%20Huggare%20M1748/HuggareM17482.jpghttp://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Swedish%20Huggare%20M1748/HuggareM17483.jpg
<

Could you please post an example of the Swedish P, Manuel, and give a date for the blade(s)?

Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Michael and Manuel,
I am really interested in that 'P' mark on the katzbalger (not to mention I wonder where it is now...and how much it sold for in 1961!).

You seem to have some interesting examples and knowledge on Swedish weapons Manuel. Is this one of your fields of interest? There really is not a great deal of information around on them, and its great to see them posted here to learn more about them.
Is the P significant as an acceptance stamp or armoury? is does not seem to be a makers stamp.

On the katzbalger: it seems worthy of note that initials were often used in Spain and Italy as makers marks and not necessarily the initials of the maker they were associated with. It seems as if they were more like a numbered order or progression like the letters used in hallmarks later.
Also, the initials were often under a crown or within a shield rather than standing alone like this.

All the best,
Jim

[Matchlock]

Hi Jim and Manuel,

First of all: thank you, Manuel, for sharing these good images. As I am in no way an expert in 18th/19th century items I am unable to decide on whether this P mark is related to that on the early 16th century Katzbalger or not. All I can say is that I do not believe in a relationship between the two.

If you have close look at the respective shapes of the letter P you will see the decisive difference between an early 16th century P (actually it is a minuscule p) and the same letter, only 200 years old.

I have managed to find a few examples of 15th to 16th century p minuscules although some of them are of rather poor quality. Still I hope that you can see my point. They are taken from 15th century manuscripts; the one showing two p minuscules one above the other is the mark of the Munich gunsmith Peter Peck which is found to be struck on the barrel of a ca. 1565 wheel-lock harquebus or long pistol.

Now that brings me to the important point that you made, Jim. Altough this is the case with Peter Peck's mark and the famous PGM mark attached ("Pegnitzer goss mich", Pegnitzer founded me) on early 16th century copper alloy cast haquebut and cannon barrels, the presence of a certain letter on a late medieval or early Renaissance weapon or on any item of arts and crafts does not necessarily mean that it is the maker's mark and the inital of his name. Often enough, e.g., we find the Gothic minuscules m on 500 year old caskets ond parts of armor where it usually stands for Mary, Mother of Jesus, or ihs meaning Jesus hominum salvator, Jesus Savior of Mankind. Another good example is, I think, the Gothic minuscule n on pieces of armor and firearm barrels where it is a town mark denoting that those items were made at Nuremberg. This kept in mind, the letter p on the Katzbalger blade might well stand for the Saints Peter or Paul - or it might be the maker's initial, or a town mark. Who knows? This is open to interpretation and makes such discussions worth while.

With all my best wishes,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A few more historic sources of illustration depicting 500 to 800 year old Landsknecht and other edged weapons. All from www.flickr.com.

Michael

[Matchlock]

More.

[Matchlock]

On it goes ...

[Matchlock]

An on ...

[Matchlock]

And on ...

[Matchlock]

And on ...

[Matchlock]

Some more.

[Matchlock]

And more ...

[Matchlock]

More ...

[Matchlock]

More.

[Matchlock]

That's it for today.

Not to forget something that might be of special interest to you, Fernando, compadre mio - well, actually I assume that you are a member of this Society! :)

Michael

[celtan]

Art is such a window into the past...a poorman's Time Travel Machine.

Did you guys notice the existence of both round and sharp tipped KBs?

Thank You Very Much for sharing these, Michael.

Best Regards

M

More.

[celtan]

Hi Jim, as always, you show a keen eye.
: )
Seems I'm inordenately attracted to swedish swords, I have no idea why.
Regarding knowledge, I do believe Khanjar is far more versed in that area.
Best

M


Hi Michael and Manuel,


You seem to have some interesting examples and knowledge on Swedish weapons Manuel. Is this one of your fields of interest? There really is not a great deal of information around on them, and its great to see them posted here to learn more about them.

All the best,
Jim

[Matchlock]

Woodcuts of 1524 and 1537 respectively, depicting Katzbalgers and an early two hand sword with figure eight quillons.

Fom Kintzertorium's photostream on www.flickr.com.

Michael

[Matchlock]

These two woodcuts are by Daniel Hopfer, both ca. 1525.

Michael

[Matchlock]

A bit more on early swords, all from flickr.com.

The authors of these are credited by giving their flickr. akas together with each picture.

Michael

[Matchlock]

More.

[Matchlock]

Done for today.

m

[cornelistromp]

very nice pictures, I have 4 rare katzbalgers in my collection, one
published by J.Ypey.
I will place some pictures in this thread coming weekend.

[Matchlock]

Paintig of St. George, Swiss, ca. 1510, and a woodcut depicting hand-and-a-half swords from a fencing book of 1558.

Michael

[Matchlock]

The first boar sword, ca. 1510-20, sold at auction Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, Switzerland, May 19,1933.

The others preserved at the Deutsches Klingenmuseum (blade museum) Solingen. The boar sword ca. 1515, the Katzbalger ca. 1530.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Cornelistromp,

We look forward to seeing your pieces!

Michael

[cornelistromp]

katzbalger 1500-1520

[cornelistromp]

katzbalger early 16thC.
I found a similar piece in the "historischen Museum" in Bern Switserland
vgl. Wegeli Schwerter und Dolche nr 172

[Matchlock]

Both of them seem to be very fine pieces, Cornelis - thank you for sharing!

I am tempted to assign a date of ca. 1530 to the first because of its thickly ribbed pommel. Those ribs closely correspond to those found on both contemporary armor and barrels.

Is it posible to take a few good details of the brass grip showing its line decoration? That would be great.

You sure are one very lucky guy to get those, congratulations.

All the best,
Michael

[broadaxe]

Cornelistromp, these are wonderful items, thank you for posting. So far I like #2 in particular, bacause of the "munition grade" appearance, not counting the unusual decoration of the copper (?) rivets in the guard. I would love to see a photo of all 4 swords togather, to see the entire blades and relative sizes.

[cornelistromp]

one side is a female saint Barbara with tower and feather at the reverse side
a man with a sword and a book probably saint Paul. this Katzbalger can be dated first quarter of the 16thC.

[cornelistromp]

Cornelistromp, these are wonderful items, thank you for posting. So far I like #2 in particular, bacause of the "munition grade" appearance, not counting the unusual decoration of the copper (?) rivets in the guard. I would love to see a photo of all 4 swords togather, to see the entire blades and relative sizes.

thank you.
ps:All the katzbalger of this particular type ( the 3 pieces I know) , have the same copper fillings at the quard.

[cornelistromp]

developed Katzbalger, spain 1540

[cornelistromp]

katzbalger 4 waterfind.

[ausjulius]

A bit more on early swords, all from flickr.com.

The authors of these are credited by giving their flickr. akas together with each picture.

Michael


interesting picture there,
in the painting with the knight with the white plumed helmet at his feet the made is depicted as being of african origin....
this is interesting,
what is the meaning being displayed in the picture?
or is this from some factuial event showing a individuial who exsisted in history??

or is it just the artist using artistic license to make the picture more interesting??
im sure there were some africans in europe at the time , as the were in the middle east and ottoman possetions , aspecialy in istabul. and although id presume they were for the most part held as slaves no doubt some would have been free or would have been able to get to non moslem areas where slavery was not common or forbidden.

brings up another interesting topic, as to how much interacion there was medieval between the middle east and north africa and europe..

i have read some place that there is records dating from the 13th century showing arabs and persians being employed in the production of crossbows bars in london...... i wonder..

[Matchlock]

Ausjulius,

The depiction that you referred to is part of an altar piece by Hans Baldung Grien called The Adoration of the Magi. According to the New Testament, one of the Magi was Melchior and he indeed is said to have been of African nationality. So this knight represents Melchior.

Don't worry too much about seeing an African wearing a South German early Renaissance suit of armor. In fact, it has nothing to do with the actual historic clothing of African people 500 years ago. The reason why the master painter sort of put him into this armor lies in the fact that the early 16th century Germans who this altar piece was made for wished any work of art to reflect their own contemporary culture, including knightly suits of armor.

When interpreting sources of illustration it is very important to keep in mind the general historic self image of people and both their religious basis and everyday environment at those periods of time.

Michael

[ausjulius]

Ausjulius,

The depiction that you referred to is part of an altar piece by Hans Baldung Grien called The Adoration of the Magi. According to the New Testament, one of the Magi was Melchior and he indeed is said to have been of African nationality. So this knight represents Melchior.

Don't worry too much about seeing an African wearing a South German early Renaissance suit of armor. In fact, it has nothing to do with the actual historic clothing of African people 500 years ago. The reason why the master painter sort of put him into this armor lies in the fact that the early 16th century Germans who this altar piece was made for wished any work of art to reflect their own contemporary culture, including knightly suits of armor.

When interpreting sources of illustration it is very important to keep in mind the general historic self image of people and both their religious basis and everyday environment at those periods of time.

Michael

yes this is true.

i did not know the painting so i was interested in the origin of the image.
i understand there is a german saint from roman times who was popular in the past in some parts of western germany , who is typicaly depicted as being of african origin..?

[Matchlock]

Well, Ausjulius,

Actually the African King and Magi Melchior was not a specifically German person but a Christian Saint who, accompanied by two more kings (magi), had followed a star and come a long way from the East to see and adore the new born Jesus Christ. To be exact, The Lord Jesus Christ was not just popular in some parts of Western Germany at some time but has been one of the most imoprtant religious leaders wordwide for two thousand years. He founded Christianity.

Michael

[Matchlock]

one side is a female saint Barbara with tower and feather at the reverse side
a man with a sword and a book probably saint Paul. this Katzbalger can be dated first quarter of the 16thC.


Hi Cornelius,

May I repeat my request to get provided with some good detailed photographs of the figural representations on the brass grip of your first Katzbalger?

Thanks in advance for putting up with any inconveniences of photography! :)

Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Cornelius,

May I repeat my request to get provided with some good detailed photographs of the figural representations on the brass grip of your first Katzbalger?

Thanks in advance for putting up with any inconveniences of photography! :)

Michael
michael,

of course, i added some text ,are you not afraid of abuse of pictures?

Best regards

[Matchlock]

Hi Cornelis,

Thank you for posting these - this is an important sample of a Katzbalger indeed!!! :) :cool:

Actually, Saint Barbara is holding, additionally to the church tower, a martyr's palm, not a feather.

Well, I am not really afraid of abuse of my pictures. On the other hand, as soon as I will have a digital camera I may protect them by a printed logo as well.

Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Cornelis,

Thank you for posting these - this is an important sample of a Katzbalger indeed!!! :) :cool:

Actually, Saint Barbara is holding, additionally to the church tower, a martyr's palm, not a feather.

Well, I am not really afraid of abuse of my pictures. On the other hand, as soon as I will have a digital camera I may protect them by a printed logo as well.

Michael
Hi Michael,

thank you, Im very happy with it :)
do you agree that the person with the book and the sword at the reverse side is Saint Paulus ?

regards from Holland

[Matchlock]

Hi Cornelis,

I must admit that I cannot clearly make out the figure on the reverse - could you please post a better image? Thank you. ;)

I have been collecting for almost 30 years and before puchasing my first piece I used to do intensive study. You will learn much more about me and my collection if care to you have a look at my earlier posts.

More comment on your other swords soon.

Best regards from Lower Bavaria,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Now that the auction is over I can post this fine piece which a friend of mine acquired for his collection with a little help from myself.

The catalog description called it 'composite' but we think that the blade and hilt are contemporary. Also we do not think that the grip ever had a wire binding as no traces of it can be seen on the leather.

Michael

[Matchlock]

The rest.

How you like it, Cornelis? ;)

Michael

[Matchlock]

A related basket hilted sword, ca. 1570, sold Bonhams London, ex-Visser Collection, 2007. Unfortunately the detailed images that I received from the department are out of focus.

Michael

[cornelistromp]

congratulations, excellent condition, I think it can be homo-gene 1540


cf ewart oakeshott, European arms&Armour p142.

[Matchlock]

And a Landsknecht sword, ca. 1530-40, sold Bonhams London, 25 July 2007.

Michael

[Matchlock]

The rest.

[cornelistromp]

A related baket hilted sword, ca. 1570, sold Bonhams London, ex-Visser Collection, 2007. Unfortunately the detailed images that I got from the department are out of focus.

Michael

Hi Michael,

I have some better pictures for you ;)

[Matchlock]

Great, Cornelis!

We can't wait to see them - thanks a lot! :)

Michael

[Matchlock]

Thank you so much, Cornelis, good pictures indeed!

Btw, I sent you a private email!

Please do not forget to take a good image of the other figure on the brass grip of your Katzbalger (St. Paul?).

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Thank you so much, Cornelis, good pictures indeed!

Btw, I sent you a private email!

Please do not forget to take a good image of the other figure on the brass grip of your Katzbalger (St. Paul?).

Best,
Michael
Hello Michael,

I replaced st paul for a better picture( at th e old position in this thread) and of course answered your private mail.

Best regards

[Matchlock]

Hi Cornelis,

I think that you were absolutely right in assigning that engraving to St. Paul as the figure holds a sword and Paul was decapitated.

Congratulations again, you have both an impressive and important line of Katzbalgers! :cool:

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

... on a painting of the Resurrection by Simon Franck, ca. 1525, in the basilica of Aschaffenburg/Northern Bavaria.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Details.

[Matchlock]

Here they are. :rolleyes: :shrug:

[Gonzalo G]

Michael, since you have handled this swords, ¿can you please give me an idea of their weight and maximun thickness of the blade? I mean, I know there are variations, but wich are the most usual? Thank you very much in advance. I am very interested in the geometry and physical charcteristics of the swords in general.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Matchlock]

Hi Gonzalo,

I should estimate the maximum thickness of a Katzbalger blade at 5-7 mm at the forte but can offer exact data of the two Katzbalgers at the German Historic Museum Berlin the pictures of which I re-attach below for convenience:

1. overall length 79 cm, length of blade 67.1 cm, maximum width of blade 4.5 cm, weight 1.3 kg

2. overall length 91 cm, length of blade 77.5 cm, maximum width of blade 3.9 cm, weight 1.47 kg

And the data of the hand and a half sword are:
overall length 1.36 m, length of blade 1.05 m, maximum width of blade 4.9 cm, weight 2.19 kg.

Best regards,
Michael

[Matchlock]

From Kisak's thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9653

I think that the blade of the Katzbalger is a later addition as almost all original Katzbalger blades characteristically have short fullers at the forte. The pommel and quillons show Italian influence and are datable to the 1530's, the bone grip and brass band are replacements.

The hand and a half estoc is datable to ca. 1525-30, the pommel and quillons retaining much of their originally blued surface as well as their characteristic roped decoration; the two iron rings on the grip are later additions.

Tanks again, Kisak!

Michael

[fernando]

... Not to forget something that might be of special interest to you, Fernando, compadre mio - well, actually I assume that you are a member of this Society! :) ...

Incidently Michael, just incidently; i am not a fencer :D .
But then, let me tell you that eventually one of their moderators is a brilliant member of this Vickingsword forum :cool: .
Fernando

[Matchlock]

Obviously this mysterious guy is extremely brilliant, Fernando! :D :cool: :eek:

Michael

[cornelistromp]

Katzbalger dimensions.

1. the "swiss Katzbalger".(CF. Schneider-Stuber 1980 page 66-75)
In the Northern part of Switzerland was an isolated development of the Katzbalger with mostly open S-shaped guards and blade length's from
approx. 85CM - 118CM. different grips and pommel shapes were used.

2. the "German Katzbalger".
Horizontal S- to 8 shaped guillons of twisted Iron often chiseled and ending in knob-terminals.the grip almost always terminates in a cap fitting down over it. Alternatively the spreading end of the grip is made of metal and no true pommel exists. (CF Norman the rapier and the small sword hilt 3)
the 2 edged blades measure 50cm-80cm with a width of 3.5cm - 4.5cm.
(CF Seifert 1968 p461)
the Ricasso, if there is one, has the same width as the cutting part of the blade and has short fullers parallel to the edge of the blade. the same type of blade can also be found on other 15thC and 16thC swords. ( CF Seitz 1965
Taf. IX; Schneider-Stuber 1980, 71, kat NR 98 (1500-1530) Kat Nr. 103 (from Zeughaus Zürich, 1520-1550, 128 Kat. Nr. 180 (Bodenseeraum 1520-1550).

RE: Blade thickness
there is no general rule for it, I have Katzbalgers with very thin flexible blades and Katzbalgers with stiffer thicker blades in my collection.
I think it depends on the fighting style of the period/area and of course of it's owner.


Best regards

Cornelis tromp

[Gonzalo G]

!Thank you very much, Michael and Cornelis!
My best regards

Gonzalo

[Gonzalo G]

Incidently Michael, just incidently; i am not a fencer :D .
But then, let me tell you that eventually one of their moderators is a brilliant member of this Vickingsword forum :cool: .
Fernando

Actually, you don´t need to fence to be member of the forum. There are spaces for collectors and bladesmiths, also.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Rick]

I think we wander from the subj. matter, eh ? :)

[fernando]

I think we wander from the subj. matter, eh ? :)
I wonder what could be wrong in (such) wandering :confused:

[Jim McDougall]

This thread is incredible!!! What outstanding material on katzbalgers, and what I think is most interesting is the indisputable role of these developed hilts in the origins of the Scottish baskethilt, one of my favorites of course.

Interesting asides on fencing.....I once fenced, a little.....but waaaayyy in my younger years. Interesting to know we have some representation of this fascinating art within our ranks here, and I would really like to have some serious discussion of the weapons used and their history. It has come up before but only briefly.
While the history of fencing theory goes, I believe, into the 16th century, the actual structured practice itself seems mostly later.

Getting back to the katzbalgers, interesting notes on determining the Swiss from German forms, and outstanding discussion gentlemen!!! I'm learning a lot here!!! :)

All the best,

' Z '

[Matchlock]

Thank you so much, Jim 'Z':cool:,

Your comment has inspired me to post some more historic sources of illustration on early Landsknecht swords.

Michael

[Matchlock]

More.

[Matchlock]

That's it.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much Michael!!! This information is really great....so far beyond the material I have at hand here.

I couldnt resist the Z :) .....one of my favorite scenes in "Zorro, the Gay Blade" was when the peasantry asked the mysterious masked swordsman who he was......he dashingly swishes a Z deftly into a tree trunk......and the crowd obliviously ask........'two???'.........in maddened frustration he bellows, no!!!! not two!!! eet ees a zee!!! for I am zorro!!! and stomps off. :)

Now I'm really off topic !!!! Back to the katzbalgers!!!! please keep it going guys OK?

All the best,
Jim

[cornelistromp]

some more.

[cornelistromp]

2

[cornelistromp]

3

[cornelistromp]

.

[Matchlock]

Stunning pieces, Cornelis!!! Thank you for sharing!

Are they yours?

Michael

[Matchlock]

More historic illustrations.

Michael

[Matchlock]

One last.

[Matchlock]

Photographed at the Museum of London in 1997.

Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

extreme beautiful katzbalger, this one I discover for the first time now!
I think it has not been published yet.
thanks for posting this sword and of course also for posting all the pictures of Landsknechts(arms), it will be a great reference for me for future buying.

you should make a book by publishing this thread :)

btw. the tang does not show hammertraces ;)

best regards

[Matchlock]

The first by Sebald Beham, the second by Erhard Schön, both 1530's.

Sorry for cutting them into two but that was the only way to save them from the web and retain them in reasonable size.

Michael

[kisak]

Sorry for cutting them into two but that was the only way to save them from the web and retain them in reasonable size.

I think I can help a bit with that.

[Matchlock]

Great, Kisak,

Thank you!

Would you consider becoming my private computer tutor? ;)

Michael

[Matchlock]

From:

Flavius Vegetius Renatus, De re mlitari (On military equipment), 1512.

Note the curved quillons as a pre-stage to the figure 8 Katzbalger quillons which do not seem to have evolved before ca. 1510.

Michael

[Matchlock]

More from that imortant source.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Two more.

[Matchlock]

This finely painted limewood bowl depicts secenes from the Hildesheim Feud of 1522. It is preserved at the Herzog-Anton-Ulrich-Museum in Brunswick.

Please note the representations of Landsknecht swords and early firearms.

Michael

[cornelistromp]

.

[Matchlock]

Thanks for posting these, Cornelis!

What book are they taken from?

Michael

[cornelistromp]

Thanks for posting these, Cornelis!

What book are they taken from?

Michael

Hi Michael,

ARMA, historia visual de armas y armaduras isbn 978-84-205-5413-6

(not very special but very nice big pictures of beautiful arms.)

best regards

[Matchlock]

Fantastabulous, Cornelis!

That extremely fine Swabian or Swiss Landsknecht sword, ca. 1500, came of course from the world famous Sir Samuel Rush Meyrick Collection at Goodrich Court, Herefordshire, and is illustrated in the 1830 Skelton catalog. It was acquired by the Met and deaccessioned of again at Christie's, Nov. 22-23, 1960, because the then Met staff rated it a forgery - would you believe that! It was not even illustrated in Christie's sales catalog and went to the Tower relatively cheap.

It is only life that creates stories like that ... :rolleyes:

I am not sure wheter it is on display in the Tower or the Royal Armouriers Leeds today.

Btw, two fine pieces from the former Meyrick collection are in mine now: the four barrel Landsknecht mace, ca. 1540, posted here earlier, and an English Civil War matchlock musket, dated 1640.:) :cool:

Best wishes,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

extreme beautiful sword. :)

I think the language is old Dutch! not a Swiss Dialect.

Also at present auctions (auction houses) I sometimes notice that forgeries are listed as genuine and vice versa.

best regards

[Matchlock]

More of that unique piece.

m

[Matchlock]

Late 15th century Landsknecht swords painted on the wooden case for a pair of gold scales, dated 1497, Germanic National Museum Nuremberg.

Michael

[Matchlock]

A few Landsknechts with Katzbalgers from Franz Helm: Buch von den probierten Künsten (book of the tested arts), South Western Germany, 1535, University Library Heidelberg.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Two Landsknecht swords, ca. 1510, from South German chronicles, the painting depicting a very rare trefoliate pommel in the Italian manner at the extreme right.

Michael

[broadaxe]

Great subjects simply don't die.
If I recall right, the sword in post #96 has been under of much debate in another forum and found to be an aged contemporary repro, even the maker has been identified.
I was sorting my photos and found this one, from the Invalides in Paris:

[Matchlock]

... in the Wallace Collection, London.

Best,
Michael

[Samik]

Not necessary Landsknecht nor Katzbalgers , but Johann von Schwarzenberg's
Die Bambergische Peinliche Halsgerichtsordnung (Constitutio Criminalis Bambergensis) dated 1507 shows some nice messers:

http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/desbillons/bambi/jpg/bambi155.jpg

Pic. 1 :Note the curved crossguard , "knifelike" hilt as well as curved blade/scabbard


http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/desbillons/bambi/jpg/bambi167.jpg

Pic. 2 : shows the straight bladed variety of the messer ; note again the "knife hilt" ; the short crossguard is more typical of the earlier 15th century messers.

http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/desbillons/bambi/jpg/bambi162.jpg

Pic. 3 : Throwing some (presumably, judging from the apparel) "landsknecht" type for good measure. The man on the right from the devil figure carries what appears to be an "early katzbalger". As has already been mentioned in this thread the early 16th century "landsknecht swords" seem to have only a slightly curved crossguard. Of interest is also the longer "hand n a half" grip.


Cheers ,
Samuel

[Matchlock]

Thank you so much, Samuel,

For the great historical illustrations and your comments!

Best,
Michael

[Samik]

Dont mention it Michael :)

It seems however that the more complex hilted katzbalgers existed even earlier than I (we? ;) ) thought.

A fabulous painting done by Vittore CARPACCIO called " Portrait of a Knight " dated 1510 , shows a young man clad in complete harness (- the helmet) and armed with what appears to be a fully developed katzbalger. Note the "figure-8 or S-shaped guard" as well as the distinctive pommel more typical for the mid/later part of 16th century.
Judging from the picture one could speculate that the weapon was also favoured among the men-at-arms/cream of the fighting nobility , not just the Knecht mercenaries. :shrug:

Take a look:

http://www.wga.hu/art/c/carpacci/5/03knight.jpg


Link to the source gallery : http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/c/carpacci/5/03knight.html


Best,
Samuel

[Matchlock]

Thank you so much indeed, Samuel, :)

That painting truly is a highly important source of illustration and I fully agree with your thesis that Katzbalgers were not only Knecht (mercenaries') weapons. If I am interpreting it right the pommel on Carpaccio's 1510 painting is gilt; we know of surviving Katzbalgers with gilt hilts and pommels, e.g. in the Vienna Leibrüstkammer.

Sure, we can imagine that some of the more successful mercenaries could afford to have the hilts of their swords gilt - or they just took one from a person they had killed. But the source you have come up with here is sensational in that it proves your surmise that the use of these swords was not limited to the lower people!:cool:


Thanks again for sharing it.

All the best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A few early 16th century sources of illustration from Geiler v. Kaisersberg, The Passion of Christ, Strassburg, 1508 (the first two), and Titus Livius, Mainz, 1514.

M.

[Matchlock]

An illustration by Georg Pencz, Nuremberg, 1530's: The Suicide of Artemesia.

M.

[Matchlock]

By the same artist, dated 1535.

M.

[Matchlock]

A Grosses Messer, ca. 1500, and five swords of ca. 1530-40.

[Matchlock]

Enjoy!

[cornelistromp]

:)

[cornelistromp]

.

[Dmitry]

This is the best thread ever!

[Matchlock]

Oh my God - thank you, Dmitry,

It's acknoledges like these that make me blush but they make all my efforts so much more worth while at the same time and keep me going.

But don't forget it's not my field of actual expertise, just something off the track.

Best,
Michael

[Dmitry]

But don't forget it's not my field of actual expertise, just something off the track.


That, to me, sounds pretty intimidating. And with a good reason to! One day I will probably catch up, but it will take a very long time.

Regarding post no.7, looking at the first picture, reminded me of the Conyers Falchion, the precise dating of which is still up in the air, if I'm not mistaken.

http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/h_conyers_eng.htm

[Matchlock]

Quite right, Dmitry,

I was not aware though that the dating of the Conyer's Falchion was still a matter of dispute. When last talking to Graeme Rimer of The Royal Armouries Leeds I remember him telling me that they were quite sure about its date of make. Maybe new aspects have arisen since ...

Best,
Michael

[Dmitry]

Quite right, Dmitry,

I was not aware though that the dating of the Conyer's Falchion was still a matter of dispute. When last talking to Graeme Rimer of The Royal Armouries Leeds I remember him telling me that they were quite sure about its date of make. Maybe new aspects have arisen since ...

Best,
Michael


That could very well be. I have seen dates as early as 11th c., or as late as the 14th. What is the dating of it, according to the Royal Armouries? I couldn't find it on the web.

[Matchlock]

Ca. 1200, plus/minus 100 years.

Grrr, thought I forgot to photograph it but on second thought I am afraid I never actually saw it; it is the property of Durham Cathedral, North East England, not of the Leeds or London museums, and probably not even on display there. I will try to do some research and let you know.

For more information on that and related items, please go

http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/h_conyers_eng.htm

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

An even madder grrr: no color photo on the web or in any of my books! :mad:

m

[Dmitry]

I don't want to divert from the subject matter of this "best ever" thread. Perhaps the moderator can move these posts into a separate Conyers Falchion thread?
Meanwhile, here's the most detailed description of the piece, along with some photos.

Archaeologia Aeliana, or, Miscellaneous tracts relating to antiquity, Volume 15
By Society of Antiquaries of Newcastle upon Tyne

http://books.google.com/books?id=5e4VAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA208&lpg=RA1-PA208&dq=conyers+falchion&source=bl&ots=oUrE7OamIu&sig=vNryd0Loenn_pG1fvFSqiN7I7zQ&hl=en&ei=ifqkTIS3KpPSsAOSpJ3-Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=20&ved=0CF0Q6AEwEw#v=onepage&q=conyers%20falchion&f=false

[Matchlock]

Nice idea! :)

Still what's needed most in my opinion would be high quality and topic color pics.

At the same time I wish that members more experienced than I would do the posting on this subject. That too should be considered in my opinion when making it a thread on its own.

Good night to all you nightowls out there (and all the others),
Michael

[Matchlock]

That, to me, sounds pretty intimidating. And with a good reason to! One day I will probably catch up, but it will take a very long time.

Regarding post no.7, looking at the first picture, reminded me of the Conyers Falchion, the precise dating of which is still up in the air, if I'm not mistaken.

http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/h_conyers_eng.htm


Keep on struggling, buddy,

It actually took me over 250 priviledged museum visitis taking more than 270,000 photos, plus a private reference library of over 3,000 books and catalogs - apart from building up an important collection of over 60 optimum preserved and documented historical pieces from 1360-1700, and more than 300 pieces of important related accouterments - plus 30 years of hardest work all around the clock ... - no kidding !!! :cool: :eek:

Don't get frightened though but hang on and lput down your sacrifices on the altar of historical weaponry ...

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Ca. 1550, the richly fullered blade inscribed

'JOUR BIEN / I(N) TE DOMINE SPERAVI / IT NON CONFONDAR / SERVI ABSERVE'
on one sinde and
'IE(SU) PRIESTE / SI DEUS PRO NOBIS QUIS / CONTRA NOS IHS / MON MESTRE'.

Overall length 165,8 cm.

Author's photos (color), scans from Hugo Schneider/Karl Stüber, Waffen im Scgweizerischen Landesmuseum; Griffwaffen I (sadly no second volume was ever published ..)

Best,
m

[Matchlock]

Enjoy.

[Matchlock]

Extremely fine piece.
I Switzerland it was called a Schneppf.

[Dmitry]

Here's a very good bastard sword that just sold on eBay for $2300. Even with a broken blade I think it was more than a reasonable price for such a wonderful hilt.

[Matchlock]

Hi Dmitry,

As we all realize, wonders are not exactly common, and so are genuine early pieces on Ebay. If it were not so, everybody paying ten times these sums in leading arms and armor sales would be crazy. In fact, the connoisseur can tell wrong from right and Historismus from Renaissance and only that is what accounts for the prices.

It is a nice Historismus fantasy piece, late 19th c.; this shape of the hilt with rectangular pas d'ane never existed in the early 16th century.

Sorry to bust another myth,
and best,
Michael

[broadaxe]

Hi Dmitry,

As we all realize, wonders are not exactly common, and so are genuine early pieces on Ebay. If it were not so, everybody paying ten times these sums in leading arms and armor sales would be crazy. In fact, the connoisseur can tell wrong from right and Historismus from Renaissance and only that is what accounts for the prices.

It is a nice Historismus fantasy piece, late 19th c.; this shape of the hilt with rectangular pas d'ane never existed in the early 16th century.

Sorry to bust another myth,
and best,
Michael

Though I have smaller experience I must agree. Saw that when auction was active. The work of the hilt seems superb, but I've never seen an angular side "ring".

[Matchlock]

Exactly.

This side 'ring' should rather be called a stirrup.

So Dmitry, better rejoice and sing for not purchasing it. It was not even worth the ebay price but all should have been done at ca. 500 USD. As often on ebay people get carried away in bidding driven by false hopes, thinking they are making a bargain ...

Good and really early items almost never go to ebay but the specialized sales.

Best,
Michael

[Pukka Bundook]

Hello Michael, I must say, I have enjoyed this topic!

There is always much to be learned.
Not having anything worthwhile to add, I have kept out of it, but wanted you to know I am here...shuffling around in the background!.....

[Matchlock]

Hello Richard,

It's so good to at least read some lines of you after that long silence. Your brilliant queries and comments are much missed here!

Please hang on a bit more than just shuffling in the background ...

Best as always,
Michael

[Samik]

Many thanks gentlemen for uploading those marvelous pieces ;)

To contribute I recently got this little gem into my hands called Régi Magyar Fegyverek by János Kalmár. It features a couple of early 16th century Hungarian swords that bear a great deal of "Landsknecht" (and most probably Italian) influence:

Sword of Hungarian monarch Louis II (the young king from Jagellionian dynasty who died at Mohacs in 1526) which looks very much like a period katzbalger:
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6137/p1020601h.jpg

closeup:
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4800/p1020602c.jpg




3 Hungarian swords from the first half of 16th century :

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9385/p1020618gz.jpg

closeup:
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/5313/p1020619o.jpg

Note the pallashe-like scabbard. Don't really know if these belong to the original pieces or had been a later addition...
(a bit of OT: they could in fact be an early verion of a pallashe, since such "italianate" sword-hilts were also fashionable on cavalry estocs of the period... some even among ottoman border troops! Still, to my eyes the swords seem a bit shortish for a cavalry weapon...)

Cheers,
Samuel

[Matchlock]

Great, Samuel, thank you,

Could you get me a copy of Janos Kalmar's Régi Magyar Fegyverek? I realize there existed an earlier 1970's edition but could not get hold of it. Is this a revised reprint as the original edition contained only very poor b/w photos?

Best,
Michael

[Samik]

Great, Samuel, thank you,

Could you get me a copy of Janos Kalmar's Régi Magyar Fegyverek? I realize there existed an earlier 1970's edition but could not get hold of it. Is this a revised reprint as the original edition contained only very poor b/w photos?

Best,
Michael

Check your PM ;)

[Matchlock]

Done, pal, and answered! ;)

[Dmitry]

I'm sorry to say that not sold on the 'historismus' bastard yet. I'm positive I've seen a similar hilt in a museum collection book, described as period. As usual, I don't remember where. Will comb through my library over the next few days.

[Matchlock]

Sold Bonhams, London, 29 April 2010.

[Emanuel]

You guys ROCK!

I've fallen in love and all of this Medieval/Renaissance pornography is making me sweat :Big Grin:

The 1.5 hander in the Musee de L'Armee recalls a wonderful 15th c. storta in Swords and Hilt Weapons (Nicholson, 1989)

http://vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=17415&stc=1

Please keep it up, these threads are GOLD!

Best regards,
Emanuel

[Dmitry]

The 1.5 hander in the Musee de L'Armee recalls a wonderful 15th c. storta in Swords and Hilt Weapons (Nicholson, 1989)

http://vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=17415&stc=1



The storta in your photo is in the Metropolitan Museum Collection. It's attributed to mid-16th c.
I make sure to look at it every time I visit the Met.

[Matchlock]

You guys ROCK!

I've fallen in love and all of this Medieval/Renaissance pornography is making me sweat :Big Grin:

Please keep it up, these threads are GOLD!

Best regards,
Emanuel

Hi Emanuel,

I didn't realize this was a porn forum ... :D :rolleyes: - but of course I grasped your point and say thanks!

Best,
Michael

[Emanuel]

The storta in your photo is in the Metropolitan Museum Collection. It's attributed to mid-16th c.
I make sure to look at it every time I visit the Met.

Thanks, good to know. Weidenfeld and Nicholson (Swords and Hilt Weapons, 1989) where I got the photo dated it to 1490. Magnificent example! I will certainly make a point of visiting the Met when I get to NY.

[Matchlock]

Please do and take close-ups!

m

[Emanuel]

Hi Emanuel,

I didn't realize this was a porn forum ... :D :rolleyes: - but of course I grasped your point and say thanks!

Best,
Michael

To formalize my earlier outburst, since I started collecting arms, I've focused on ethnographic, non-European weapons out of interest and due to economic limitations. Pre-19th century European has remained thoroughly out of my league, as have Nihonto and most Persian and Caucasian arms. The efforts you folks have made in putting all of this material on the forum and sharing your knowledge and experience have made Euro arms so much more accessible.

Thank you once again.
Emanuel

[Matchlock]

Hi Emanuel,

I do appreciate your comment and thank you in return.
Me, on the other hand, I don't now the least on ethnographic arms ...

And: weapons, to many men, actually seem to have some kind of eroticism - I can't deny that for myself ... I mean they are not exactly 'sexy' but they sure they are fascinating and thrilling! :cool: :eek:

Best,

Michael

[Matchlock]

This is a painting by the so called Master of Cassoni Campana, active in Florence in the early 16th century (Italian Renaissance period).

The painting is in the Musée du Petit Palais, Avignon, France. The scene depicts the Ancient Greek mythology of Theseus and the Minotaur.

Enjoy

[Matchlock]

Photographed by the author in their reserve collection.

The ring on the one on the right denotes that it was later re-used as a sliding weight, as often was the case.

Michael

[Matchlock]

A fine South German, less probably Swiss, hand-and-a-half Landsknecht sword of ca. 1530, preserved in the Musée des Beaux-Arts, Dijon, France.

Best,
m

[Matchlock]

A hand-and-a-half Landsknecht sword in a ca. 1530's Flemish painting of the legend of St. Hubert, sold at auction at Galerie Koller, Zürich, Switzerland, in March 2010.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A Landsknecht short sword with an open ring or antenna shaped pommel, an ear dagger and halberds in a ca. 1460-70 painting of the Passion of Christ.

m

[Matchlock]

Hubert van Eyck, Rotterdam, The Empty Tomb, ca. 1415.

Please note the edged weapons of the sleeping guards and the highly unusual shapes of some hafted weapons, including the two long arrows on the right!

m

[Matchlock]

Jörg Breu the Elder, The Crucifixion, dated 1501, Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg.

Please note the short sword with the ca. 1480-90 pommel and curved quillons (Kurzwehr, Seitenwehr) of the Landsknecht dressed in red in the middle.

m

[Matchlock]

St. Florian and St. Paul; painting by Jörg Breu the Elder, Augsburg, ca. 1500.

Please note the fine blade of the hand-and-a-half sword on the right.

m

[Matchlock]

The Joy of Springtime, by Jörg Breu the Elder, Augsburg, 1531.

Note the Katzbalger sword in its sheath.

m

[Matchlock]

Hand-and-a-half sword; St. Florian, by Francesco del Cossa, dated 1473.

m

[Matchlock]

Woodcut by Hans Schäufelein, ca. 1515, who among others worked for the Emperor Maximilan I.

m

[Matchlock]

Hans Sebald Beham, Nürnberg, dated 1540; drawing of one of the first rapiers.

m

[Matchlock]

Details from the so called Resurrection Altar, ca. 1430, from Arnstadt/Thuringia, now preserved in the Berlin Gallery.

Note the short Landsknecht sword (Seitenwehr or Kurzwehr) with riveted wooden or bone grips and the kidney dagger.

m

[Matchlock]

Woodcut of the students' riots in Efurt, Thuringia, ca. 1520, depicting some type of a Großes Messer.

m

[Matchlock]

From top:

ca. 1320, 1452, 1558.

m

[Matchlock]

Munich, ca. 1475; now preserved in the Wallraff-Richartz-Museum Cologne (Köln).

Please note the sword of a type that is usually dated 'ca. 1520' and called a 'hunting sword' - so this really is an important painting!

[Matchlock]

Segovia, Alcázar, Spain, Cathedral: a very fine two-hand sword with partially gilt blade, ca. 1540.

[Matchlock]

Two fine hand-and-a-half Landsknecht swords, ~1520; painting of the Passion of Christ, by Rueland Frueauf The Younger, Passau, Lower Bavaria.

[Matchlock]

A good South German Korbdegen, ca. 1550, preserved at Schloss Braunfels, Northern Germany.

Photos taken in 2004, copyright by the author.

m

[Matchlock]

A very fine and rare South German Estoc (Panzerstecher), ca. 1500, the blade struck with an orb and cross mark, preserved at Schloss Braunfels, Northern Germany.

Photos 2004, copyright by the author.

m

[Matchlock]

From only recently recovered colored leaves.

Mostly from flickr.com, with thanks to the original posters there.

m

[cornelistromp]

from the new publication of Jan Piet Puype & Harm Stevens
Arms And Armour of knights and landsknechts in the netherlands Army Museum.

[cornelistromp]

some more.

[Matchlock]

Great, Cornelis,

Thank you so much!

I just ordered my copy of that publication.

Best,
Michael

[Samik]

A very fine and rare South German Estoc (Panzerstecher), ca. 1500, the blade struck with an orb and cross mark, preserved at Schloss Braunfels, Northern Germany.


Thanks Michael for posting this beauty!

A bit of a silly question but would you happen to know if the piece was for use on foot (as in armored fighting) or for equestrian combat? Our hussar did carry similar pieces a decade or so later but with a shorter grip ( I do think the hilt on the stecher you posted is at least "hand-and-a-half" .. assuming my eyes are not decieving me :) )

Cheers,
Samuel

[Matchlock]

Hi Samuel,

Exactly, this is a hand-and-a-half estoc and too long for foot combat. Estocs usually were equestrians weapons to thrust from horseback against foot soldiers.

Cheers, and best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Ca. 1515, preserved in perfect patina all over.

Author's color photos.

[Matchlock]

A knight with his Katzbalger, ca. 1510.

[Matchlock]

from the new publication of Jan Piet Puype & Harm Stevens
Arms And Armour of knights and landsknechts in the netherlands Army Museum.

Hi Jasper,

I hope you don't mind my re-attaching better quality scans of these unusually fine items, together with the informative texts. ;)

The first Katzbalger dates of ca. 1515-20, next there is a sample of ca. 1540 but please note that the blade is from a rapier of ca. 1590-1600.
The excavated find is a rare Katzbalger saber (I don't really think it should be called cutlass) of ca. 1535.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

These two Landsknecht daggers in the Legermuseum range among the finest I have ever seen.

For the first I would suggest a date of almost exactly 1500, the other might be a decade or so younger.

Best,
m

[Matchlock]

Sold Thomas Del Mar, in association with Sotheby's, Dec 8, 2010, incorrectly dated 'late 16th c.' in the description.

Best,
Michael

[machinist]

What a glorious twohander!
Running wolf and all!

[Matchlock]

And preserved in virtually 'untouched', heavily olive oil patinated condition as well!

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Enjoy!

m

[Matchlock]

Please also see my threads

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14115

and

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13589&highlight=landsknecht+hand+swords


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

This is the best thread ever!


Thank you so much, Dmitry,
I have to admit I am sort of proud of it myself. :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Sold Thomas Del Mar, in association with Sotheby's, Dec 8, 2010, incorrectly dated 'late 16th c.' in the description.

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

I think this lot remained unsold, I had a look at it after the auction but did not 'like" it.

best,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

You're right, of course; it should read 'failed to sell'.
Apart from that: well, I dislike the leather on the grip but on the other hand, I wasn't there to handle it. So your knowledge on this is doubtlessly more profound than mine.

Thanks, and best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

I've got a nice contribution of a grosses messer, a discovery found in the soil of Bavaria (your backyard?) "Dreieck" Hauzenstein, Liebergen und Haslach near the eastern way Regensburg - Nittenau.
With this knife is a belt hook with a Nuremberg mark and chape found.
the belt hook is very interesting because it has a system with a spring and a plate to fix the sword.
The condition has been excavated, but as single handed Messers are very rare, I'm happy with it.
remains of the original wooden handle and wooden Pflockniete (rivets) are available.


best from holland,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

Nice item you've acquired there, congratulations! :)

Actually it was not exactly excavated in my backyard :rolleyes: but some 40 km northwest from where I live. Of course I know that region very well as I used to study and afterwards live in Regensburg for almost 25 years.

It's really well preserved, with no yellowish, aggressive salt points visible on the images.

The combination with the belt hook is highly remarkable too, as well as the fact that the latter is Nuremberg marked, and left of this there seems to be another coat of arms, probably the one of Bavaria.

What I would be interested to learn: could you please give us the overall length, blade length and width of blade at the quillons?
Is this the original bottom mount of the sheath right near the tip of the blade?

Thanks a lot for sharing,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

well almost your backyard then. ;)
all the parts are found together also the chape.
remarkable because in most images Messer are worn with out any sheath.
also a picture of the belt hook with spring to secure the plate.

The measurements are:
the sword allover: 80,5 cm
the blade length/width: 67,0 cm / 4,2 cm
blade is single edged wit a fuller at both sides.
the crossguard: 22,5 cm
the ring in diameter: 7,0 cm / 4 cm

best,

[Matchlock]

Thank you so much again, Jasper!

This one is a really fine and well documented find! :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Thank you Michael,

Yes, I bought it from a German gentlemen, it is known that Germans are generally somewhat more precise in detail. ;)

BTW did you ever see such a messer for single hand use.
The longer 2 hand Messers are known, but here the grip is a little longer for single hand- or 1 1/2 hand use.
probably this extra length is needed only to counterbalance the light blade enough, i/o a pommel/counterweight.

best,

[mrwizard]

BTW did you ever see such a messer for single hand use.
The longer 2 hand Messers are known, but here the grip is a little longer for single hand- or 1 1/2 hand use.


The Messer "ZEF 4" documented on this site seems to be made
for single hand or 1 1/2 use:
http://www.zornhau.de/dinkelsbuhl-first-steel/#more-92

Single hand figthing styles for the Messer are described in
Lecküchner, H: Kunst des Messerfechtens (CGM 582), 1482
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00002184/images/

Best Regards,
Thilo

[fernando]

BTW, Michl ... and others :) .
Are you aware of this publication?
Nice swords here. All examples with full technical data.
Pity (for me) is written in german :shrug: .
... But the illustrations are universal, though :cool: .

.

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando,

Of course, the Schneider/Stüber book on edged weapons from the Zurich arsenal has been in my library for some 30 years and has often seen reference.

I'd like to add that the measurements, too, are internationally understood. :)

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

The Messer "ZEF 4" documented on this site seems to be made
for single hand or 1 1/2 use:
http://www.zornhau.de/dinkelsbuhl-first-steel/#more-92

Single hand figthing styles for the Messer are described in
Lecküchner, H: Kunst des Messerfechtens (CGM 582), 1482
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00002184/images/

Best Regards,
Thilo


Hi Thilo,

As I am very much aware of the 'source' whereafter that engaged young guy builds his replicas, I have become very reserved ... there are way too many fakes around originating from that very same 'source'.

Best,
Michael

[mrwizard]

As I am very much aware of the 'source' whereafter that engaged young guy builds his replicas, I have become very reserved ... there are way too many fakes around originating from that very same 'source'.


Hi Michael,
Thanks for the remarks about the 'source' of the weapons.
I didn't know (or even suspect) that it was questionable. :shrug:

Regarding the intentions of the people whose website i linked to:
While i am aware that documenting weapons to build replicas as close to the
original as possible is problematic from a collectors perspective,
i am *very* sure these people won't sell fakes to anyone. :)

Best Regards,
Thilo

[Matchlock]

Hi Thilo,

You are certainly right about the young people copying the swords without any 'dark' intention. The problem is the dealer who lends them the 'original' pieces and thereby makes them get 'copied after an original'. The 'original' items are fakes themselves, though, and by this method get copied on and on, spoiling peoples' minds.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Single hand figthing styles for the Messer are described in
Lecküchner, H: , 1482
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00002184/images/

Best Regards,
Thilo


Hi Thilo,

Thank you for pointing out this valuable link!

As it is much preferred on our forum to post pictures instead of posting links, I am going to publish a selection of Hans Lehküchner, Kunst des Messerfechtens (CGM 582), 1482.

Please note the birds' head shaped pommels (Vogelkopfknauf) as well as the single edged blades with their tips sharpened on both egdes.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

The rest.

[cornelistromp]

Hi Gentlemen,

very nice, this is another type of messer, more of the "Hauswehr" type, with shorter quards and characteristic "Parierdorn".

best regards
Jasper

[Micke D]

Hi Jasper!

Do you have any measurements for that nice messer?
Is it your's? How old is it?

/Micke D

[Matchlock]

Right, Jasper,

It's a so called Seiten- or Hauswehr, tool and weapon in one.

The grips and hollow rivets seem to be new.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper!

Do you have any measurements for that nice messer?
Is it your's? How old is it?

/Micke D


Hi Micke D,

All I can say is that I would date Jasper's Messer to ca. 1490-1400, and that is exactly the period this thread is all about, the high time of the Landsknechte. The short and heavily swamped quillons are characteristic for the Late Gothic stylistic period.

A very nice and nearly identical Messer or Seitenwehr is illustrated in Johann von Schwarzenberg's Die Bambergische Peinliche Halsgerichtsordnung (Constitutio Criminalis Bambergensis) of 1507. This illustration was originally posted by our member Samik earlier in this thread.

I am sure Jasper will give you the measurements you required.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Let's start with a really great two hand sword (spadone a due mani) with richly fullered blade, Veneto, ca. 1510, overall length 1,73 m.

Next in line is another, the hilt Venetian, the blade German, ca. 1535-40, overall length 1,53 m.

Then there is another, Italy, ca. 1560, oa. length 1,505 m.

The fourth item was made in Venetia using a German blade, ca. 1565, oa. length 1,38 m, a piece from the end of the period of Landsknechte.


So far for the great swords.

There is also a fine Landsknecht hand and a half sword with a single edged blade, South German or Swiss, ca. 1560, oa. length 1,28 m. Please note the perfectly original black and blueish colors of the hilt!

And, last not least, a fine South German or Swiss Katzbalger-Degen, the fine blackened hilt and Brezel-quillons characteristic of the 1540s;
oa. length 1,05 m. The grip wire binding including the Turk's heads is a later alteration.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Jasper!

Do you have any measurements for that nice messer?
Is it your's? How old is it?

/Micke D

Hi Micke,

this one is not my property but I do have the measurements for you.
allover length = 49.0 cm, cross-width = 10 cm

Blade: length = 36.5 cm, width = 3.8 cm

weight: 502 gram

Michael gave exactly the right period for this messer. around 1490

best,
jasper

[Zwielicht]

Ahh... again so many great things!:)

A few questions:

1) Are there a remains of a second ring on the messer's hilt? Two broken pieces in the center of a guard look like having a cross section just like a ring on another side, and remind it very closely, as for me.

2) And the first за those four two-handed swords - what are it's more detailed dimensions, if they are available? Weight, blade width and thickness, hilt length etc.

[Matchlock]

Hi Zwielicht,

At the beginning of my latest post on the Italian Swords I gave all the measurements I had, according to their line of appearance.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

... preserved in the Castel Sant' Angelo, Rome, the Katzbalger of unusual length and therefore probably mounted with a later blade!

m

[fernando]

Ah Michl,
Definitely your picture is much better than mine, 'secretely' taken with a friend's camera, when i visited the Castle last year.


:shrug:

[Matchlock]

Oh 'Nando,

They are not mine, I found them on the web.

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

German two hand swords in the Norwich Castle museum: the one on the left a bearing sword of ca. 1600, the one on the right an early Landsknecht sword of ca. 1490, also illustrated in detail below.

Associated with the armor is a hand and a half sword of ca. 1550-60.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi there,

Some 20 years ago, my friend Ottmar saw an unusually good and fine Katzbalger in perfect old patina in a North German private collection, and offered them what would 10,000 euro today. They would not sell though.

Today, that same piece - unfortunately cleaned meanwhile - was sold at auction by Czerny's, Italy, where it was fortunately labeled as 19th c. copy. So my friend bought it at the estimate of 1,500 euro.

Sometimes all you have to do is wait patiently ...

Now here it is, Southern Germany, ca. 1520, overall length 94.5 cm. Please note the small piece of wood inlaid in the iron grip and framed by a brass band, and the fine roped decoration on the hilt, which is characteristic of the early Renaissance period. The short lateral fullers at the base of the blade can be found on most original Katzbalgers.

The mark struck two times has not yet been identified, it might be a variation of the so-called Brescian eye though.

Enjoy, and best,
Michael

[fernando]

Fantastic !!
Hey Michl, did you notice the auctioner dates it XIX century ? :confused:
... or is my italian far too rusted ? :eek:

-

[Matchlock]

sold at auction by Czerny's, Italy, where it was fortunately labeled as 19th c. copy. So my friend bought it at the estimate of 1,500 euro.



But that's exactly what I pointed out, 'Nando - and that's also what the joke is all about! :rolleyes: It really is, as I said: ca. 1520 and all original!

Best,
Michl

[fernando]

Sorry for being too speedy; didn't read the whole paragraph :o .

[Matchlock]

That's o.k., my friend,

Things like these tend to happen to old folks like us! :D :cool: :eek:

Michl

[Matchlock]

A standard bearer Landsknecht with a short sword that could be called an early predecessor of a Katzbalger. Please note the slightly curved quillons.

Woodcut by Albrecht Dürer, 1502.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A Katzbalger ... preserved in the Castel Sant' Angelo, Rome, the Katzbalger of unusual length and therefore probably mounted with a later blade!
m

The pretzel quillons on this are a modern replacement of course. I just wished to make that perfectly clear.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

For another good Katzbalger sword new to the market, and in our member Fernando's collection, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14555

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A good and rare Landsknecht one-hand sword, in excavated condition and missing its originally sandwiched and cord-bound leather-covered wooden grip scales, ca. 1525-30, just failed to sell at only 1.600 euro at the Dorotheum, Vienna.
Overall length ca. 110 cm.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

This one-hand sword is very similar to a hand-and-a-half sword of identical date, overall length 119.5 cm, preserved in the Historisches Museum Regensburg (author's photos attached, the one top is the one discussed here).

The blade bears a deeply-struck South German cross-and-orb mark.

m

[Matchlock]

The orb-and-cross mark.

[cannonmn]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/Forums60/Hackbut/UvSSwordatKunsthistMusVienna.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/Forums60/Hackbut/WoodcutofUlrichvonSchellenberg-enh1.jpg

View item at Kunsthistorisches Museum
Identifier: HJRK_A_287
Format: Total: L. 88 cm, weight 1400 g Blade: L. 75 cm,

W 4.5 cm, weight 500 g gilded bronze, leather, brass
Publisher: Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien, Hofjagd- und Rüstkammer| Landsknecht sword with sheath for knife and an awl eight

Date: in 1515
Geographic coverage: South German
Type: Sword |Relation: Hofjagd- und Rüstkammer

Description: This from the southern German Landsknecht sword has a type of so-called Katzbalger eighth-shaped curved crossguard, which is heavily gold plated. The swing -up handle is duplicated four times with St. Andrew's cross, well-decorated as an indication of the closeness of the owner of the house of Habsburg. When the stitching on the knife-eaters there is a continuous poetic inscription.

Ulrich Schellenberg fought as Imperial officer in both Maximilian I and Charles V in Upper Italy against France and Venice. Caption: The inscriptions of the now lost awl grip caps and 4 Knives are out of the 19 Century, handed
down: ALS. IR. ZV. LIEB) / KAIN. FRED. ON. SI / ALS. MIT. GLVCK / ICH. WART. DER. ZIT / (ICH. LID. VND. SCHWIG) / ICH. HOFF. V .. See lessData provider: Kunsthistorisches Museum| Provider: Kulturpool| Austria| This record can be cited in the Harvard Bibliographic style using the text below:

(1515) Landsknecht sword with sheath for knife and an awl eight
Webpage available at link below:
[Accessed: November 29, 2011
09:27:18 PM]

[cannonmn]

If anyone has better photos of this sword or even the handle only, please post them here. I can buy them from the KHM but the cost may be more than it is worth for my little project.

[Matchlock]

Hi John,

Here are better images of the von Schellenberg Katzbalger at the KHM Vienna. Thought I had posted them somewhere here before but can't find them.
The close-ups of the hilt in color at the bottom are mine. Even if you are lucky and get special permission like I did, and are allowed to use flashlight, taking good pictures is extremely critical in the Vienna exhibition (as in most museums when it comes down to guns ... :mad: ).

The blade mark on the ricasso is an Italian-style crowned Greek pi.

Enjoy,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Those interested in Ulrich von Schellenberg's biography, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=129689#post129689

m

[Matchlock]

They are preseved in the Museum of Hunting History.

From top:

A fine South German or Swiss hand-and-a-half sword, ca. 1540

A Venetian Landsknecht Sword, ca. 1510

A fine Venetian Storta, ca. 1500


Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

auctioned at Thomasdelmar this Wednesday, lot 130.


Michael do you recognize the sword from your Photo's at the beginning of the thread? :)

A RARE SOUTH GERMAN BACKSWORD, SO-CALLED LANDSKNECHTMESSER, SECOND QUARTER OF THE 16TH CENTURY, PROBABLY MUNICH
with straight blade double-edged for the last third, cut with three long slender fullers on each face, stamped with the so-called 'twig' mark on one face, iron hilt comprising a pair of straight quillons with spirally-moulded knob-shaped terminals, shell-guard formed as a fire-steel and pierced with a central cross between two hearts, the front border roped and extending to a scrolling terminal on each side, finely carved ivory crutch-shaped pommel decorated with a female figure in contemporary dress on the top (cracked), a cherubic mask on the front, and scrolls on the reverse, wooden grip bound with fishskin and an early brass inventory tag
82.5cm; 32 1/2in blade

Provenance
Adrian Conan Doyle (as stated below)
Christie's King Street, 9th December 1998, lot 98

A sword with etched blade by Ambrosius Gemlich dated 1532 and with a pommel carved in the same style is preserved in the Museum fûr Deutsche Geschichte, Berlin. See H.Mûller and H. Kölling 1990, No. 157, p. 219. An almost identical guard on another Munich messer, also with an etched blade by Gemlich and dated 1533, is preserved in the Historisches Museum, Dresden. See H. Seitz 1965, Ill. 227.

[Matchlock]

Of course I did recognize the piece, Jasper,

I helped consigning it with Tom Del Mar. :)

Actually, your post was a bit quicker than mine; I was waiting for Tom's reluts before posting but it was only a few minutes ago that my browser would update and I could study the results list.

I was sold for GBP 7,800 ((lot 130).

Here's a bit more on the piece.

BTW, it's good the have you coming in again. I much missed your valuable comments and additions. ;)

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Another similar Munich Landsknecht-Messer originally belonging to the Emperor Charles V, with similar style guard and calendar blade etched by Ambrosius Gemlich, Munich, and dated 1533 (the calendar ending in 1542, indicating that this costume sword was expected to be out of fashion within 10 years!). It is preserved in the Vienna Waffensammlung, inv.-no. A 429 (author's photos).

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

The following two items from the Karsten Klingbeil collection sold cheap at Brussels yesterday.
I've just been informed that they both went to a Swiss museum.

1. An early Swiss Landsknecht two-hand sword, ca. 1550.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

2. An early 1530's (way earlier than the catalog stated) Swiss hand-and-a-half sword with fine marks and retaining its original grip binding and leather finely stitched with Gothic bow ornaments, also sold cheap.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

The rest.

[Matchlock]

auctioned at Thomasdelmar this Wednesday, lot 130.


Michael do you recognize the sword from your Photo's at the beginning of the thread? :)

A RARE SOUTH GERMAN BACKSWORD, SO-CALLED LANDSKNECHTMESSER, SECOND QUARTER OF THE 16TH CENTURY, PROBABLY MUNICH
with straight blade double-edged for the last third, cut with three long slender fullers on each face, stamped with the so-called 'twig' mark on one face, iron hilt comprising a pair of straight quillons with spirally-moulded knob-shaped terminals, shell-guard formed as a fire-steel and pierced with a central cross between two hearts, the front border roped and extending to a scrolling terminal on each side, finely carved ivory crutch-shaped pommel decorated with a female figure in contemporary dress on the top (cracked), a cherubic mask on the front, and scrolls on the reverse, wooden grip bound with fishskin and an early brass inventory tag
82.5cm; 32 1/2in blade

Provenance
Adrian Conan Doyle (as stated below)
Christie's King Street, 9th December 1998, lot 98

A sword with etched blade by Ambrosius Gemlich dated 1532 and with a pommel carved in the same style is preserved in the Museum fûr Deutsche Geschichte, Berlin. See H.Mûller and H. Kölling 1990, No. 157, p. 219. An almost identical guard on another Munich messer, also with an etched blade by Gemlich and dated 1533, is preserved in the Historisches Museum, Dresden. See H. Seitz 1965, Ill. 227.

Hi Jasper,

I must ask: could it possibly be in your collection now? :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Some more impressions of early 16th C. mercenaries swords and a horseman's hammer, late 16th.C., from the Hapsburg Imperial Vienna Arms and Armor collection preserved in the Hofburg.
Photos taken from www.forum.info. - with thanks to the authors!

Enjoy,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

that is interesting, I have a similar 2hander, if this one is described under inv. 161.121 nr280(see last picture) it also has the same shield engraved in the blade!, with the characters S H, I don't know the meaning yet. maybe it stands for Hans Staentler.

best,