A Kampillan...But Moro???

[CharlesS]

I have just received this kampillan and once in hand it really got my curiosity up, because it has a lot of somewhat unique features. I am wondering if it is Moro at all, but I think if it is Moro it is not from the Philippines.

VVV and I had a nice discussion this summer regarding the widespread use of the kampillan, and I am wondering if this piece may be from Borneo or even Sulawesi.

The blade is nice, yet not unique...it is a standard nicely laminated blade, but what is unique:

*short "crocodile jaws"....very little "open mouth"

*smaller hilt overall, with shorter, thinner crossguard

*hair is not attached in plugs glued into holes, but is attached in a long thin groove-like
opening rather than holes

*unique talismans; other than the tiger bells, these do not appear to be typical to
Moro kampillans

I'd like some feedback from others on the possible origins of this sword. I am wondering if anyone is thinking like I am??

[RhysMichael]

You get the most interesting pieces. I do not know enough about Kampilan to comment but an interesting example and those look like tiger bells but I could be wrong. There are references for tiger bells on Kampilan nad tiger bells can be found in Sulawesi


http://park.org/Guests/Tiger/indonesi.htm

And tiger bells are seen in the Philippines

http://park.org/Guests/Tiger/details.htm

[Bill]

Tiger bells look a bit like the ones of the Iban. http://park.org/Guests/Tiger/details.htm#start but far from definitive.

[Dajak]

I will picture next week the borneo collection from the Nijmweegse Museum so will sure look at these Bells


Ben

[Bill]

can you id the hair at all? orangutan?

[VANDOO]

ARTZI POSTED A SIMULAR KAMPILIAN A WHILE BACK SO YOU MIGHT LOOK FOR HIS POST OR CONTACT HIM. THE HAIR IS MOST LIKELY GOAT ,ORANGATAN IS NOT AS COURSE AS THAT APPEARS TO BE. I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY GOOD REFRENCES ON KAMPILIANS GIVING THEIR RANGE OR THE NUMBER OF TRIBES USING THEM BUT ALSO SUSPECT THIS IS NOT A PURE PHILIPPINE MORO KAMPILIAN. NICE KAMPILIAN AND A NICE HEAVY WATERED STEEL BLADE WHEREVER ITS FROM. :cool:

[VVV]

Great Kampilan!

I think this is another example of the older style, maybe pre-mid 19th C, of kampilan before the later, large "crocodile jaw" became more popular.
It seems as those were extinct already during the Spanish American war which probaby is the reason why they seldom are seen in US collections.
The talismanic (?) hairy "hang-on" are also sometimes found on those kampilan (example below).
Another even more rare style is the horse head hilt. Examples of those are found on the pictures in Cato p. 53 and van Z p. 93.
My understanding is that the kampilan is a tribal (Illanun tribe), not a geographical weapon. This nomadic sailing tribe is found in Mindanao as well as Sabah (Borneo), Sulawesi and Timor.
Among people who has emigrated from their original culture old style and habits lasts longer.
An example is my mother who left Denmark in the late 50's. A Danish friend of mine was excited after talking with her because even if she of course spoke perfect Danish it was like "watching an old movie". Her Danish hadn't changed since the 50's and she had no new expressions from the last 50 years as well as some expressions and words that nowadays no modern Dane would use.
But of course it's still Danish as your kampilan still is Illanun...

Michael

[CharlesS]

Thanks for the input guys.

Excelllent info Michael.

I also neglected to mention that the kampillan is about 6 inches shorter and considerably lighter than any other in my collection.

[kai]

Hello Charles,

Thanks for posting these pics! You really get the nicest toys! <drooling>

I wonder why nobody mentioned it yet: If you ever want to let this piece go, please drop me a line, pretty please... ;) :rolleyes:


*short "crocodile jaws"....very little "open mouth"
I don't think this was ever intended to represent an animal.


*hair is not attached in plugs glued into holes, but is attached in a long thin groove-like opening rather than holes
Could you please show a close-up? The decoration at the bottom side of the hilt still seems to be applied in tufts.


*unique talismans; other than the tiger bells, these do not appear to be typical to Moro kampillans
The attached tassle seems to be close but slightly different from Michael's.

BTW, attached bundles of hair like in your example seem to be more widespread in the area. Are these documented from any non-headhunting culture?

I'd like some feedback from others on the possible origins of this sword. I am wondering if anyone is thinking like I am??
Illanum seems to be a good guess - possibly more East than Borneo...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Michael,

I think this is another example of the older style, maybe pre-mid 19th C, of kampilan before the later, large "crocodile jaw" became more popular.

It seems as those were extinct already during the Spanish American war which probaby is the reason why they seldom are seen in US collections.
I think I saw at least an intermediate example which apparently originated from Mindanao but I agree that this seems to be an old-style hilt which probably went out of fashion in Mindanao.

Among people who has emigrated from their original culture old style and habits lasts longer.
I agree; however, that also means that some of these "expat kampilan" don't have to be as old! (Some obviously are pretty old though...)

Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

Hi Kai,


I agree; however, that also means that some of these "expat kampilan" don't have to be as old! (Some obviously are pretty old though...)


I agree on that


Illanum seems to be a good guess - possibly more East than Borneo...


Sorry Kai but I don't think Illanun is a guess, but a fact, on Kampilan.
And I don't see why it has to be more East?
Resembling ones can be found in old European collections collected both in Mindanao as in Sabah (f.i. Eduard Sonne collection and Museo Militar in Madrid).

Michael

[Bill]

Hi Kai,




Sorry Kai but I don't think Illanun is a guess, but a fact, on Kampilan.
And I don't see why it has to be more East?
Resembling ones can be found in old European collections collected both in Mindanao as in Sabah (f.i. Eduard Sonne collection and Museo Militar in Madrid).

Michael
Hi Michael, I can't find too much about the Illanum. They seem to be mentioned whenever there is old accounts about pirates. I found the "Encyclopaedia of S.E.A. Ethnograpy" to be usefull in finding out about different groups. When it come to Illanum, they have very little; except to say they are closely related to the Maguindanao. As traders & pirates, I would think it is safer to say, they likely "adapted" the Kampilan from another group or that it's origin came from the Maguindanao & the Illanum may have spread it through the region.

[Rick]

From my understanding the Iranun/Ilanun inhabited Mindanao; at some point they were driven from their location due to volcanic activity and eventually were spread throughout the area as mercenaries and pirates. I have also read that they were among the most accomplished of smiths in the S. Philippines.

I believe this info can be found in Warren's The Sulu Zone .

[RSWORD]

Charles comment about the overall length being a good 6" less than typical Kampilan along with the fabric "wrist loop" makes me wonder if this piece would be a good size to utilize on board a ship.

[VVV]

Sorry Bill and Kai,

I was obviously a bit clumsy in my statement above.
I meant that it is a fact if, implicit, it belonged to an expat (= outside Mindanao).
On origin I have read that they came from Lake Lanao.
Doesn't that imply that they are closer to the Maranao?
There is a lot of information on the Illanun and their customs in old books describing ex-British North Borneo (= Sabah nowadays).

Michael

[Battara]

I was thinking ( :eek: ) and there might be another possibility - could it be Bagobo - they were in proximity to the Moros and many Lumad tribes like this borrowed or were influenced by Moros. Bells like these were used by some of the Lumad tribes. I have seen tiger bells like these on some Bagobo pieces.

[Battara]

I was thinking ( :eek: ) and there might be another possibility - could it be Bagobo - they were in proximity to the Moros and many Lumad tribes like this borrowed or were influenced by Moros. Bells like these were used by some of the Lumad tribes. I have seen tiger bells like these on some Bagobo pieces, and I think they tended to use slightly lighter pieces in weight.

[ibeam]

Great Kampilan Charlse,

Similar kampilans was brought up on this thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=570

I had a nice conversation with Zel about these. He was in Cotabato City a few months back doing research on the the ceremonial aspect of the Moro culture.

Hopefully he can share some of his research and insights on these.

[Dajak]

Tiger bells where used from thailand india Philipine to Borneo
It is no indication off country or people.


Ben

[Battara]

Tiger bells where used from thailand india Philipine to Borneo
It is no indication off country or people.


Ben
Although this is true, in the Philippines, most Moros did not use them and you are more likely to see them among the Bagobo and other Lumad tribes. None among the Igorot tribes in the north for example.

[Dajak]

Hi I found the drawing in the book off Hein he tells this is from the Sundajak on North Borneo page 347 fig. 76



Ben

[Dajak]

Drawing

[VVV]

We discussed those pictures in this thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2820

I suspect when Hein writes Sun dayak it's the Dusun tribe. And that he mixed up the Dusun with their neigbours the Bajau tribe. At that time most of the Illanun had disappeared because of intermarriage with the Bajau according to Ivor Evans' book mentioned in the thread above.
I find Evans' several years of anthropological field research in Sabah better for separating the tribes than Hein's armchair studies.

On the tiger bell issue I agree with Ben. I find it hard to believe that all the large Kampilan with tiger bells you see now and then are Bagobo?

Michael

[Dajak]

Here some pics off dajak kampilans

[Battara]

VVV,

I am not necessarily saying that all kamkpilans with tiger bells are Bagobo, but that many with these can be Bagobo or Bagobo influenced, although I had forgotton about Borneo, where trade was common.

[Dajak]

We discussed those pictures in this thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2820

I suspect when Hein writes Sun dayak it's the Dusun tribe. And that he mixed up the Dusun with their neigbours the Bajau tribe. At that time most of the Illanun had disappeared because of intermarriage with the Bajau according to Ivor Evans' book mentioned in the thread above.
I find Evans' several years of anthropological field research in Sabah better for separating the tribes than Hein's armchair studies.



Michael


Michael Evan s did not study the indonesian and Borneo swordhandle s

Only the malay people as far as I can see


and it is also relevant wich time they study because 20 years difference make s a lot off differens between the aerea wich what was going on and there where also sulu s
living in the North part off Borneo .
I can t find nothing that he mean sundajaks that they are Dusun otherwise he would call them like it.
He is the only one that pictured the handle off the rare parang sankit .
I cannot find that in Evans books .

The Ethnographic Classification of the Dusun-Speaking Peoples of Northern Borneo
George N. Appell, Robert Harrison
Ethnology, Vol. 8, No. 2 (Apr., 1969), pp. 212-227
doi:10.2307/3772983


Ben

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

Michael Evan s did not study the indonesian and Borneo swordhandle s

Only the malay people as far as I can see

Hein didn't visit Borneo but made his studies in European museums and libraries.
Evans based his research both on older local sources as well as field studies among the different tribes.
Visiting villages and interviewing f.i. swordmakers about what weapons they produced and what weapons their ancestors produced.
He also researched what weapons that were used by the different tribes and where they came from if not locally made.
Evans' book is focused on in depth describing the Dusuns (p. 79 - 193) and the Bajau & Illanuns (p. 194 - 273).


and it is also relevant wich time they study because 20 years difference make s a lot off differens between the aerea wich what was going on and there where also sulu s
living in the North part off Borneo .
I can t find nothing that he mean sundajaks that they are Dusun otherwise he would call them like it.
He is the only one that pictured the handle off the rare parang sankit .
I cannot find that in Evans books .

Hein based the name Sundajak (see note 2 on page 348) on the publication by Dr Eduard Sonne; Die Bewohner Britisch-Nord-Borneos mit besonderer Berücksichtigung der Badjohs, Tumbonoas und Sundajaks (1893).

Badjohs is probably Bajaus. Tumbonoas is probably Tambatuan (which isn't a tribe but a district inhabitated by the Dusun tribe) and I find it quite probable that Sun is Dusun.
The reason for that is that no other source I have read about dayak tribes in North Borneo mentions the existence of any tribe named Sun.
If it exists, or ever existed, please give me a reference for this and I will of course change my conclusion?
I have gone through the major 6 works on Sabah Dayak tribes but found nothing on any tribe called Sun.
Also it would be extremely strange if Sonne didn't include the Dusun when describing major tribes in ex-British North Borneo?
That would be like neglecting Iban if describing tribes in Sarawak.

The reason Evans don't mention Parang Sangkit is that he doesn't write about the Muruts in his book.
Hein isn't 100% impressing on this as he isn't sure if the Sangkit is from Borneo or Sulu (see p. 343) ...


The Ethnographic Classification of the Dusun-Speaking Peoples of Northern Borneo
George N. Appell, Robert Harrison
Ethnology, Vol. 8, No. 2 (Apr., 1969), pp. 212-227
doi:10.2307/3772983


Ben

Please explain how this, probably interesting, article contributes to our discussion?

What's interesting is that Evans describes the weapons of Dusun as "largely procured from other tribes".
He lists the pida (barong), the pedang, parang ilang/gayang and sundang/serundang/kris as the Dusun swords - not the kampilan.

In the Bajau & Illanun weapon descriptions he writes (p. 253-254):

"...while the long Illanun sword, the kompilan, with its curiously carved and flattened handle, and its blade, narrow near the hilt, but broad and heavy at the point, came from Mindanao, the place of origin of the Illanuns themselves. Types of handle and blade somewhat similar to that of the kompilan are, however, found in islands farther to the east, notably Celebes and Timor."

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael
The Murut s was an large group off people from North Borneo so Evans did only a very small aerea of North Borneo and as you can read is that by travalling there people make mistakes so why is Evans right and the others that study and and visit long time before Evans are wrong .
Hein make an study same as Zonneveld did .
Take a look at the pakayuns they larger that any mandau or parang from North Borneo how could it be Evan did not see it ??? :D :D :D
Can you explain that to me . :confused:


Ben

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

We are discussing the Kampilan and Borneo tribes that used the Kampilan.
I don't mind discussing the Murut but then I think it's more proper that we should do it in another thread than this.

1. Are you claiming that studying the Murut shares some insight in the distribution and use of the Kampilan in North Borneo?

2. Ling Roth is one of the 6 sources I have used to see if there ever existed a tribe called the Sun Dayak.
Ling Roth lists all tribes and sub-tribes in detail but doesn't mention the Sun Dayaks.
Have you fund any proof of that there ever existed a tribe in North Borneo named Sun, unless it's another name of the Dusun?

3. Of course nobody is perfect but in what way is Evans wrong regarding Kampilan and Dusun vs Bajau & Illanun?

Studying from other sources alone, like Hein and van Zonneveld, is of course dependant on the quality of the sources and the understanding of them. There is often a higher risk of misunderstandings than doing your own research on the field, as Evans did.
The same for us two (even if I have at least visited North Borneo twice and met the tribes IRL, but unfortunately after they stopped using the Kampilan.).


Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael what I am trying to say that it is mostly time blocks like 1800-1825
1825-1850 in movement and changes like from kampilan / mandau to gun .

....tribes disapear .....

....new tribes coming .....

So that is always difficult I never visit Borneo but now a little bit more about the mandau Jimpul than most off the people that live there (Because now they make shows overthere to please the tourist people)so that is no excuse If some one has been there or not it is only an time moment ( I did visit bali in 2001 and in 2006 and did see a lot off difference in only 5 years ,
what you think there will more difference if I wait 25 years .

The best mandau Jimpuls Kampilans are out side Borneo / Philipine why the wood from the old mandau or kampilan suvived because they where taken early from there)

Stone did thell the kampilan is used bij the seadajaks he might have seen a few with kampilan s it is also not sure if the kampilan find his roots in the philipine we do not now 100 % maybe it was coming from celebes timor and developt bij the philipine people there is not 100% proof.

It is always hard to find out the right tings mostly many idea s and if Evans say so maybe hein tell different but who to believe .


(maybe we want Evans to belive because we like his story but is it true Evans did go out by him self
Hein did take a few people that have been there and study so I am like more a few people telling somthing than only stay with one person .)

And if we take a look at the map we can see that Evans not get an great area because he would have seen that the murut s are there would also tell some about the murut s .

some pic s off my kampilan I think this one is from Boneo

Ben

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

Thanks for your response and I agree with a lot of it, but not all.
Maybe we should focus on one question at the time.

Have you found any evidence of that there ever existed a dayak tribe called the Sun in North Borneo,
unless it's another name for the Dusun?

Michael

[Dajak]

It could be that they live in an area where the sunbear was seen but I will search.

I found it you are right the Sundajak also now by the name off Dusun so Dr Sonne who lived a long time with these people at the Marudubai .
So no reason to doubt what Hein tells about these weapons.
read hein 348.

He also write that some off these piece s where found at market s in Madrid
in 1892

So Sundajak as name is right .


ben

[VVV]

...I found it you are right the Sundajak also now by the name off Dusun so Dr Sonne who lived a long time with these people at the Marudubai...
ben

Thanks Ben,

Then that part is cleared.
I have also found that in some old sources, like Rutter, they don't differentiate between the Dusun and the Bajau & Illanun.
They just divide the original inhabitants of North Borneo as either Murut and then the rest is called Dusun.
I assume Dr Sonne belonged to that school based on the title of his work?
Marudubai is Marudu Bay so he lived among the coastal tribes which had contact with the Philippines.

It's also interesting that Hein/Sonne, if I understand his German correct, also had the opinion that the Kampilan is an imported sword from the Illanuns with origin in the Philippines.


Btw, very nice old Kampilan you added to your post.

Michael

[Dajak]

Thanks Ben,

Then that part is cleared.
I have also found that in some old sources, like Rutter, they don't differentiate between the Dusun and the Bajau & Illanun.
They just divide the original inhabitants of North Borneo as either Murut and then the rest is called Dusun.
I assume Dr Sonne belonged to that school based on the title of his work?
Marudubai is Marudu Bay so he lived among the coastal tribes which had contact with the Philippines.

It's also interesting that Hein/Sonne, if I understand his German correct, also had the opinion that the Kampilan is an imported sword from the Illanuns with origin in the Philippines.


Btw, very nice old Kampilan you added to your post.

Michael

Hi Michael

Yes you correct that he tells the kampilan is imported from the Illannus .

Sonne must live the in the late 1800 in the North part so I gonna try to get his book maybe more good information in it .


Ben

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

That sounds interesting.
Please share what you find when you have read it.

Michael

[VANDOO]

I AM NOT IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS YOU GUYS AS FAR AS KNOWLEGE OF THESE THINGS. :)
BUT IT SEEMS TO ME A GOOD PALCE TO LOOK FOR FURTHER INFORMATION MIGHT BE ANTHROPOLIGICAL STUDIES. DUE TO THE STUDIES DONE ON THE POLYNESIANS THEY HAVE TRACKED THEIR MOVEMENTS FROM PLACE TO PLACE AND THRU TIME. IF STUDIES HAVE BEEN DONE IN YOUR AREA OF THE WORLD IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO TRACK SEVERAL WAVES OF MIGRATION TO AND FROM PLACES AND PERHAPS THRU LUCK AND ARTEFACTS PIECE TOGETHER A POSSIBLE ORIGIN FOR KAMPILIAN TYPE WEAPONS AS WELL AS OTHERS. YOU WOULD ONLY HAVE TO LOOK AS FAR BACK IN TIME AS TO WHEN IRON AND THE TECKNOLOGY TO WORK IT AS WELL AS WHEN TRADERS FROM MORE ADVANCED SOCIETYS CAME INTO THE AREA.
CHOPPER TYPE BLADES WERE AROUND VERY EARLY IN CHINA AND INDIA AND THEY WERE SEA FARING TRADERS. THEY MAY HAVE ESTABLISHED TRADE IN BORNEO AND THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE ANY OTHERS OR ONE OF THE WAVES OF IMIGRATION MAY HAVE BROUGHT THE FORM IN.
AS TO WHY ONE TRIBE MIGHT BE IGNORED OR LEFT OUT OF A REFRENCE WORK,
1.TIME AND MONEY IS GENERALLY VERY LIMITED.
2. IF YOU ARE SEEN AS A FRIEND OF AN ENEMY TRIBE YOU WILL NOT BE WELCOME.
3. PERHAPS ANOTHER TRIP TO COVER WHAT WAS MISSED THE FIRST TIME WAS PLANNED BUT FOR LIFE'S MANY REASONS WAS NEVER DONE.
4. YOU RELY ON REFRENCES WHICH MAY BE IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE AND INTERPRET TRIBAL NAMES WRONG, OR THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR OF THE REFRENCE MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT HE WAS TOLD AND GOT IT WRONG.
MISTAKES ARE MADE, THINGS ARE OMITTED IN ALL REFRENCES. :rolleyes: WE JUST HAVE TO DO THE BEST WE CAN WITH THE REFRENCES THAT ARE AVAILABLE AND IN A LANGUAGE WE CAN READ :D

[VVV]

I just found this very interesting documentary that sheds some more light on the Illanun tribe and why you find kampilan etc. also on Borneo.
It has Swedish subtitles but it's recorded in English:

http://www.ur.se/play/161129

Unfortunately they obviously didn't employ any weapon experts but still nice to see the Kalis, Barong and Kampilan presented on TV as well as them being used in action.

Happy watching for all Moro collectors!

Michael

[VVV]

Here is a bonus reference btw, a kampilan with twist core.

Michael

[Battara]

Thanks Michael, what a nice piece. Not often that one sees twistcore on a kampilan let alone a Moro piece.

[Maurice]

Incredible piece with that double twistcore and dark hardened etch Michael! This certain is a top piece.
The pommel style is also one of my favorites.

Kind Regards,
Maurice

[tunggulametung]

In case this is not known already to some readers, lanun in modern Malay/Indonesian is synonymous to perompak/bajak laut = pirate.

[Maurice]

I was just reading some interesing old Dutch articles (written in 1854 and one in 1869) of the pirates around Borneo and also about the inhabitans in the coastal area's of British north Borneo.

About the British North Borneo coastal area's the article is highlighting the following tribes: The "Ilanons or Lanons", the "Solokkers" (as the Dutch apperently named the people from Sulu), the "Badjo's" (they call themselves people of Sama: Orang Sama), and the "Idaans or Doesoens".
About the Bajo's the article is telling that they were very numerous, and were certainly no friends of the lesser numbers of Ilanons. But also with their large numbers, they feared the Ilanons and were not able to confront the fierce Ilanons.

Also I read about the arms of the Badjo's.
They were armed with a lance, a shield and a sword.
Does anybody know what sword they carried? A kampilan?

Thanks in advance,
Maurice