Keris and Hilt for Comment [Archive] - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Henk

24th June 2007, 08:39 AM

Ganjawulung,

I hestitate a bit about this keris.

It is a lovely keris, that's for sure.

The sheath looks very Bugis to me, The ukiran is Sumatran but i doubt it is Bugis.
The keris itself isn't a Bugis blade but has a Javanese apearance.
Two possibilities. Javanese blades were highly apreciated and brought by sailors from Java to Sumatra. It is also known that keris blades on Sumatra were forged to Javanese origin.

That's why I hestitate to say this keris is Bugis. For the moment I would say Sumatra.

ganjawulung

24th June 2007, 02:38 PM

Me too, Henk,

I hesitate to say that this is a correct Bugis composition. Frankly speaking, I got these keris' parts separately: the sheath and the blade, then the hilt. The hilt cup, I have kept this for quite a long time... I just try to compose it. So I need your comment on this composition...

Anyway, thanks a lot for your kind attention Henk...

Ganjawulung

BluErf

24th June 2007, 03:57 PM

Hi,

Sheath is Sulawesi,

pendoko is Trengganu (N. Malay).

Hilt looks new, but there is a Sulawesi form like this as well. I think most forumnites must be thinking of the Riau Bugis form which is similar to this. But I think this form is more akin to Sulawesi. Jon posted a similar kind of hilt a while back.

Blade has been washed in hi-contrast manner akin to Javanese kerises, but I don't think it is Javanese. From the dapur, it could be Sumatran Bugis.

BluErf

24th June 2007, 04:06 PM

Here's the link:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4601

There is a more similar example on Kampungnet, but I think the website may have "kicked the bucket" for good...

BluErf

24th June 2007, 04:10 PM

Ok, here's the hilt on the Sulawesi keris belonging to Dave Henkel, which was on Kampungnet:

ganjawulung

24th June 2007, 04:51 PM

...Sheath is Sulawesi,

pendoko is Trengganu (N. Malay).

Hilt looks new, but there is a Sulawesi form like this as well. I think most forumnites must be thinking of the Riau Bugis form which is similar to this. But I think this form is more akin to Sulawesi. Jon posted a similar kind of hilt a while back.

Yes, BluErf,

I think this sheath is Sulawesi. Pretty sure, Bugis. Pendoko? This is something new for me. Thank you for informing, that this pendoko is Northern Malay. The hilts, I don't think this is a new one. I have cleaned it, with tooth-brush-shampoo and then with auto-polish :D . Really, this is not new one. I just think this is original. The blade? Sure, not Javanese blade -- from the forging of pamor, and the details of keris.

The pamor, in Javanese term we call it "pamor tritikan" and not "untu walang" (grasshopper-teeth). But not as fine as Javanese pamor.

Thanks alot, BluErf. Very useful information from you...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey

24th June 2007, 10:28 PM

Ganja, would it be possible for you to do a close up of the sorsoran, and the pesi, I would especially like to see clearly the last , say, half inch of the pesi as it enters the gonjo.Thanks, Alan.

ganjawulung

25th June 2007, 03:53 AM

Ganja, would it be possible for you to do a close up of the sorsoran, and the pesi, I would especially like to see clearly the last , say, half inch of the pesi as it enters the gonjo.Thanks, Alan.

Yes Alan,
For the sake of the keris knowledge, this is the picture you wish to see...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung

25th June 2007, 04:05 AM

Hilt looks new, but there is a Sulawesi form like this as well. I think most forumnites must be thinking of the Riau Bugis form which is similar to this. But I think this form is more akin to Sulawesi. Jon posted a similar kind of hilt a while back.

BluErf,
This is the sole picture of the hilt. And please regard too, to the other picture I took from Mr Hamzuri book, "Petunjuk Singkat tentang Keris" (Short Guide on Keris) published by the Department of Education and Culture (1973). Mr Hamzuri showed to the readers a Riau Lingga (Sumatera) keris which appearance looks like Sulawesi keris...

Ganjawulung

PenangsangII

25th June 2007, 04:09 AM

Hello Pak Ganja,

Very mean looking keris. I would think 10 times before engaging a combat duel with a person wielding it :) .

I think the hilt is of Bugis Sumbawa origin. The rest, except for the ferrule are either Bugis or Bugis influence.

ganjawulung

25th June 2007, 04:20 AM

Very mean looking keris. I would think 10 times before engaging a combat duel with a person wielding it :)

I would think 20 times either :D The blade is so "hurting". My finger was bleeding when I was rinsing it with water...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey

25th June 2007, 07:09 AM

Thanks Ganja, you've put my mind at rest.

Don't think I've ever seen that type of blade with that pamor.

Thanks again.

Alam Shah

25th June 2007, 09:27 AM

BluErf

25th June 2007, 10:24 AM

BluErf,
This is the sole picture of the hilt. And please regard too, to the other picture I took from Mr Hamzuri book, "Petunjuk Singkat tentang Keris" (Short Guide on Keris) published by the Department of Education and Culture (1973). Mr Hamzuri showed to the readers a Riau Lingga (Sumatera) keris which appearance looks like Sulawesi keris...

Ganjawulung

Hi Ganjawulung,

This keris you referred to is a famous keris, and it is an archetypal Riau Bugis keris. I would say it is the benchmark for all Riau Bugis kerises. Shahrial has a couple of Riau Bugis kerises with similar hilts. Perhaps Shahrial could post pics of his 2 keris hilts for comparison.

The reason why I think your keris hilt is Sulawesi rather than Riau was because of the pierced-through 'appendage' on the underside of the head and the more acute angle of bending of the head. The "appendage" is also present in the 2 examples I referred to above, but is not so obvious in Riau examples. The more acute angle of bending is a common feature in Sulawesi pistol-grip hilts.

However, I may be wrong. So if anyone has any information, references, please raise them. Thank you.

PenangsangII

25th June 2007, 10:53 AM

Alam Shah

25th June 2007, 11:18 AM

According to Suhartono Rahardjo in his book 'Ragam Hulu Keris Sejak Zaman Kerajaan' published by Lembaga Kreasi Penerbitan Masyarakat (LKPM) Jan 2003, the kemuning hulu (kerdas) shown by Ganjawulung is from Sumbawa island, derived from Bugis pistol grip hulu. The author himself is an avid collector of keris hilt.For general knowledge, Suhartono Rahardjo's hilt book is good, but it does have its fair share of less accurate information for hilts outside Java. It should be taken with a pinch of salt. Perhaps, it might be due to hilt understanding from a Javanese standpoint. ;)

Michael (VVV) have a similar hilt type, mounted on another weapon, which is not a keris, if I recall correctly.

Kai Wee, I'll take a close-up of my hilt soon, for comparison. :)

Alam Shah

25th June 2007, 11:37 AM

... This keris you referred to is a famous keris, and it is an archetypal Riau Bugis keris. I would say it is the benchmark for all Riau Bugis kerises. Shahrial has a couple of Riau Bugis kerises with similar hilts. Perhaps Shahrial could post pics of his 2 keris hilts for comparison.
... An example of a hilt mounted on a Bugis Riau keris.
http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p31970087.html[/url]

Another example mounted on a Southern Peninsular keris.
http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p31948135.html[url="http://alamshah.fotopic.net/c1029717.html"] (http://alamshah.fotopic.net/c1030512.html)

Compare... :confused: :D
Note: Throughout the Malay archipelago, there are many cases of mix and match with parts from other region.

PenangsangII

25th June 2007, 11:56 AM

AlamShah, thanks for your yet again 'pictorial' explanation :) .

If I may ask, what's the difference between the straits & Sulawesi hilts?

From my own observation, there's not much difference, maybe the way the keris is held the straits way - pinch grip (cucuk sanggul style), and Sulawesi way - real pistol grip (segenggam padi) due to taller pendokok stem. But this is of course subject to personal preference of the wielder :confused: .

ganjawulung

25th June 2007, 12:04 PM

The reason why I think your keris hilt is Sulawesi rather than Riau was because of the pierced-through 'appendage' on the underside of the head and the more acute angle of bending of the head. The "appendage" is also present in the 2 examples I referred to above, but is not so obvious in Riau examples. The more acute angle of bending is a common feature in Sulawesi pistol-grip hilts.

Thanks for the useful infos, BluErf. In the coming days there will be more hilts, sheaths and kerises from Bugis, Sulawesi and Lombok which will be send to me by some friends. So I will need to have more infos from you..

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung

25th June 2007, 12:10 PM

For general knowledge, Suhartono Rahardjo's hilt book is good, but it does have its fair share of less accurate information for hilts outside Java. It should be taken with a pinch of salt. Perhaps, it might be due to hilt understanding from a Javanese standpoint. ;)

Dear Shahrial,
So which book do you think is better on hilts? I knew personally Suhartono Rahardjo a couple years ago, but no more contact for a long time. As far as I know, he was (is) an engineer, working in Soroaco (nikel industry in Sulawesi), but he is Surabayanese... He has many collections on Nusantara hilts...

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah

25th June 2007, 02:12 PM

Dear Shahrial,
So which book do you think is better on hilts?That depends, which type of hilts are we talking about. ;) Peninsular hilts are not reflected in Suhartono's book. On page 66, Fig. 111, I don't think it's a Lampung hilt. For Fig. 112, I don't think it a Pekakak hilt form, either. :confused: :)

I knew personally Suhartono Rahardjo a couple years ago, but no more contact for a long time. As far as I know, he was (is) an engineer, working in Soroaco (nikel industry in Sulawesi), but he is Surabayanese... He has many collections on Nusantara hilts...Thanks for the intro. If you happen to meet him, send my regards, for writing such a book which benefit us collectors. I reckon he does have an extensive collection, like you. :)

Alam Shah

25th June 2007, 04:01 PM

Alam Shah

25th June 2007, 04:12 PM

Example of a similar Sulawesi hilt. For comparison... ;)
(Ref: Kerner's Keris-Griffe, Aus Museen Und Privatsammlungen, Pg: 141, Fig: 212).

ganjawulung

26th June 2007, 02:16 AM

Thanks Shahrial,
This is for more comparison...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung

26th June 2007, 02:31 AM

And different with these other Sulawesi hilts...

PenangsangII

26th June 2007, 02:36 AM

Dear Pak Ganja,

Your hilt looks like from Sulawesi Buton if Mr Suhartono is right. I think when discussing Sulawesi (keris, sarung or hilt for that matter), we ought to remember not to confuse Buginese with Makasarese, though generally speaking they are from the same stock. I guess we shouldnt confuse Javanese with Sundanese either. :confused: :)

ganjawulung

26th June 2007, 02:41 AM

Your hilt looks like from Sulawesi Buton if Mr Suhartono is right. I think when discussing Sulawesi (keris, sarung or hilt for that matter), we ought to remember not to confuse Buginese with Makasarese, though generally speaking they are from the same stock. I guess we shouldnt confuse Javanese with Sundanese either. :confused: :)

Thanks a lot, Penangsang,

And the two hilts, are they Buginese? Or Buton?

PenangsangII

26th June 2007, 03:16 AM

Pak Ganja,

About the other 2 hilts, they are not clearly stated by Mr Suhartono, but my take is.

the 1st one is makasarese because of the conic pistol grip type & the other one could be South Sulawesi Bugis. But I could be wrong too.

Alam Shah

26th June 2007, 03:18 AM

...This is for more comparison... ... similar to mine. Mine is mounted on a Peninsular Malay keris... ;)

ganjawulung

27th June 2007, 04:38 AM

... and not the same kind with this "chepot" (demi-god in wayang, Mas Bram knows it better) hilt. Just for comparison of the "bending" hilt...

Ganjawulung

PenangsangII

27th June 2007, 07:13 AM

Salam Pak Ganja,

From your vast experience, where does this wayang hilt come from?

I thought I saw almost identical to this one i.e. demi god (rasaksa?) bowing before a king that was on sale here in KL. The seller told me it was Maduran Bajing or Bajang. If my Javanese is correct, Bajing means squirrel, and bajang is one of the feared rasaksa....

From your composition of the hilt & ferrule, I can also adduce (wild guess) that your complete hilt is of Sumbawa's origin :confused: .

ganjawulung

27th June 2007, 10:55 AM

From your vast experience, where does this wayang hilt come from?

From your composition of the hilt & ferrule, I can also adduce (wild guess) that your complete hilt is of Sumbawa's origin :confused: .

Dear Penangsang,
Really not vast experience. Even on "luar Jawa" (outside Java island) kerises, now I'm learning from you. Regarding such unusual hilt like this, all I can do is just guessing.

I guess, this "wayang" hilt is from Java -- either West Java, or Central Java. And probably not Madura. That is regarding to the figure of "chepot" (or Bagong the youngest of four Pandawa clown-gods or demi-gods) which is so popular in most "wayang golek" (?) show in West Java. The "dhalang", the puppeteer, often speaks via Chepot figure. But in Central Java, I think, it is more Semar (the father of the clown-gods) who takes more role for the speaker. (Please correct me, Mas Bram, If you don't mind on).

The composition of hilt and ferrule, maybe not proper. I just waiting for the comments of you all. Really I have no idea...

Ganjawulung

Marcokeris

27th June 2007, 12:36 PM

Dear Ganja
a rare nice hit!
I think it is from Jawa, but .... maybe also from Sumbawa....and the patterns coud be also from Sumatra :confused: .
From a photo without selut or from a photo of the face alone maybe is possible to have better clues.

David

27th June 2007, 01:32 PM

though it is not necessarily an indicator of origin the 'selut" looks very Sumatran to me. :shrug:
Very nice hilt BTW. :)

Alam Shah

27th June 2007, 01:36 PM

Hi Ganja, a unique hilt.

Cepot (Bagong), with a squat body and has very big eyes.
The ferrule (selut) is of South Sumatran type, Palembang comes to mind, imho. ;)

ganjawulung

28th June 2007, 05:18 AM

I think it is from Jawa, but .... maybe also from Sumbawa....and the patterns coud be also from Sumatra :confused: .
From a photo without selut or from a photo of the face alone maybe is possible to have better clues.

Dear Marco,
These are the fotos of "the hunchback of Java" you want to see...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung

28th June 2007, 05:34 AM

though it is not necessarily an indicator of origin the 'selut" looks very Sumatran to me. :shrug:
Very nice hilt BTW. :)

Thanks David, for the info. Sometimes I am confused with such variety of 'selut'. I have some other types of selut that still confusing me. Someday I'll post them here.

Hi Ganja, a unique hilt.

Cepot (Bagong), with a squat body and has very big eyes.
The ferrule (selut) is of South Sumatran type, Palembang comes to mind, imho. ;)
I hope I was not mistaken to guess that the hilt I showed you is really a "semar hilt", and not "chepot hilt". Semar has a "tuft" in his head, and only one tooth in the lower jaw... Please correct me if I'm wrong..

These pictures below is another hilt, probably a double headed creature of wild boar and garuda....

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah

28th June 2007, 09:26 AM

I hope I was not mistaken to guess that the hilt I showed you is really a "semar hilt", and not "chepot hilt". Semar has a "tuft" in his head, and only one tooth in the lower jaw... Please correct me if I'm wrong..

These pictures below is another hilt, probably a double headed creature of wild boar and garuda....Ganja, you seems to have quite a lot of hilts. I'm not familiar with these forms. Since you mentioned it's a cepot (Bagong), I assume it is. ;) But after looking closer, it's more of a Semar than a Cepot.

Let's recap... Semar is the care-giver of Pandawa. His name is also Hyang Ismaya. Even though his appearance is ugly, he has supernatural abilities...

Bagong (Cepot) means shadow of Semar. When Semar was sent to the earth, the gods stated that his shadow became his friend. Suddenly, his shadow was transformed to be Bagong. Bagong has unique personality: he is assertive and like to pretend to be stupid. He is also a funny character.

The other hilt's creature, hmmm... I'm not sure what it is, but the back is a garuda mungkur. Thanks for sharing.

Punakawan is a unique type of character in Indonesian wayang (shadow) theatre. They generally represent the commoners. The characters of Punakawan indicate various roles, such as the warrior advisors, the entertainers, social critics, and clowns, a further source of truth and wisdom. In Javanese wayang, the punakawan characters consist of Semar, Bagong, Gareng and Petruk. For our reference.

Marcokeris

28th June 2007, 09:36 AM

Dear Marco,
These are the fotos of "the hunchback of Java" you want to see...

Ganjawulung
Now i can see better: this pendawa hit could be 70% Jawa ( cirebon tegal : 50%, central Jawa 20%) and 30% Madura (no Sumbawa, no Sumatra)

The other hit could be the same

PenangsangII

29th June 2007, 03:31 AM

Pak Ganja, AlamShah and friends,

So, what exactly the correct dapur that can go with the "hunchback of Java" and the semar? If not so much trouble, examples with pics please. Thx.

ganjawulung

29th June 2007, 06:22 AM

Pak Ganja, AlamShah and friends,

So, what exactly the correct dapur that can go with the "hunchback of Java" and the semar? If not so much trouble, examples with pics please. Thx.

Dear Penangsang,

Regarding Semar is a "tindih" (neutralizer?) for of the Pandawa, I prefer to put the "semar hilt" in a tindih keris like this Jalak Budo. And I prefer the type of Javanese "walikat" like this. I hope it will fit properly....

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah

29th June 2007, 09:41 AM

Dear Penangsang,

Regarding Semar is a "tindih" (neutralizer?) for of the Pandawa, I prefer to put the "semar hilt" in a tindih keris like this Jalak Budo. And I prefer the type of Javanese "walikat" like this. I hope it will fit properly....

GanjawulungLooks fitting and appropriate. The broad hilt matches the broad blade and sheath. Philosophy-wise is also fitting, me think. :)