Heinrich Kolle

[Triarii]

Hello,

I am excitedly awaiting delivery of a sword tomorrow which has the blade stamped to one Heinrich Kolle along with a Passau wolf of Solingen. The hilt is mid C17th English.

I can't find anything on Mr Kolle at all. Anyone have any information?

[fernando]

Triarii, try and look for Heinrich Koll ... not Kolle ;).

[Jim McDougall]

James Mann mentions Enrique Coll (as marked in Toledo) as possibly Heinrich Koel of Solingen (Wallace coll. 1962, p.298).

In "European Makers of Edged Weapons and Thier Marks" by Staffan Kinman (p.18) it is noted that Heinrich (Enrique) Col who was a smith for the Royal Court in Toledo in first half of 17th c. and also worked in Solingen.

On p. 47 a Heinrich Kohl (elder) is listed 1580-1620 and using crucifix and deer as marks.

A number of Solingen makers did work in Toledo as well, which as can be seen further complicated the spellings, however it may be presumed that they meant the same individual, the spurious application of makers names notwithstanding.

[Triarii]

Thankyou both. I'll try all of the spellings.

The international trade in blades and swords in the C17th interests me.
I have a Pappenheimer (usually North German in style) which has a very Toledo looking blade mark (shield with an indistinct letter in it and a crown over), so German hilt and Spanish blade.

I have ordered Staffan Kinman's book from the US, so will await its journey across the Atlantic.

[fernando]

... I have a Pappenheimer (usually North German in style) which has a very Toledo looking blade mark (shield with an indistinct letter in it and a crown over)...
Can we see it ?

[Triarii]

Here are some photos. Best I can do. At higher res they get more indistinct.
Same mark either side of the ricasso, just tried different angles to photograph it.

[fernando]

Where are they, Triarii ? :confused:

[Triarii]

Whoops.

[fernando]

Impossible to figure out. Maybe not so close ... not so unfocused !

[werecow]

Maybe number 89 or 90 (Sebastian Hernandez)? Although it almost looks like a mirror image. Could the phone have flipped the image perhaps?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=210478&stc=1&d=1628076449http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=210479&stc=1&d=1628076464

[Triarii]

Not sure why they came out so large. They're clearer at a smaller scale like the attachment.

[Triarii]

Werecow, the photos are the right way around.

However, although annoyingly I can't get as good a photo as the Mk1 eyeball;

In the bright sun today (makes a change) the circular blob at the top of the shield clearly has a small cross in it.
The crown is clearly visible below that and has multiple points around its top.
However, below is a reversed 3.
.

So possibly 89, so possibly Sebastian Hernandez. The text below for No 89 (el viejo Vivia) translates as "the old man lived 1637". I'm not sure if that means 'was active around 1637' or died 1637.
That aligns with the hilt type.

The text for No 90 (el mozo labro tambien en sevilla) translates as "the young man also worked in Seville". Presumably his earlier mark.

Thanks Werecow - I'll look at my other lists of marks to check.

[Jim McDougall]

I usually take a picture, go to 'PAINT' and use the size reduction feature, then save. This way the pics go from monstrous size to viewable, also making them compatible to the post in the thread.

[fernando]

A detail to take into consideration is that, the new upload features do not reject too large pictures; only bring them to limit size (1200 bits...). This may cause some inconsistecy among the same series of pictures; maybe some within the lot are smaller (trimmed) and unexpectedely grow bigger by program reflection. Just guessing :o.

[Triarii]

I pasted them into the word doc to try and avoid that. There's two shots of each side of the ricasso.

Another shot attached.

[fernando]

... I'm not sure if that means 'was active around 1637' or died 1637... Means that there are (written) records of him being alive (at least) in that date.

[fernando]

Like so ...


.

[werecow]

Werecow, the photos are the right way around.

However, although annoyingly I can't get as good a photo as the Mk1 eyeball;

In the bright sun today (makes a change) the circular blob at the top of the shield clearly has a small cross in it.
The crown is clearly visible below that and has multiple points around its top.
However, below is a reversed 3.
.

So possibly 89, so possibly Sebastian Hernandez. The text below for No 89 (el viejo Vivia) translates as "the old man lived 1637". I'm not sure if that means 'was active around 1637' or died 1637.
That aligns with the hilt type.

The text for No 90 (el mozo labro tambien en sevilla) translates as "the young man also worked in Seville". Presumably his earlier mark.

Thanks Werecow - I'll look at my other lists of marks to check.

I think the "3" in numbers 89 / 90 are a gothic stylized "z" (https://www.alamy.com/the-letter-z-in-the-gothic-style-vector-alphabet-the-symbol-is-isolated-on-a-white-background-old-russian-calligraphy-medieval-russian-letter-lo-image443596724.html), but it's odd that it would be mirrored. Maybe it's a C and the bar at the top of the "3" is just the bottom of the crown?

[fernando]

I think the "3" in numbers 89 / 90 are a gothic stylized "z" (https://www.alamy.com/the-letter-z-in-the-gothic-style-vector-alphabet-the-symbol-is-isolated-on-a-white-background-old-russian-calligraphy-medieval-russian-letter-lo-image443596724.html), but it's odd that it would be mirrored. Maybe it's a C and the bar at the top of the "3" is just the bottom of the crown?
Interesting; this possibility (3 versus Z) was discussed a while back, idon't recall which thread.
Jehan Lhermite on his "Le Passetemps" work mentioned this smith; as also an author i didn't keep record who it was; do i ?
showpost.php
However i don't think the mark on the discussed sword is that of Sebastian Hernandez; but what do i know ...


.

[Triarii]

Thanks. I'll translate that if possible. Now wondering if it is a C - which for some reason I didn't look at. It's a bit malformed for that letter though.

[fernando]

That was the post i meant.



http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=213063&postcount=27

[werecow]

Interesting; this possibility (3 versus Z) was discussed a while back, idon't recall which thread.
Jehan Lhermite on his "Le Passetemps" work mentioned this smith; as also an author i didn't keep record who it was; do i ?
showpost.php
However i don't think the mark on the discussed sword is that of Sebastian Hernandez; but what do i know ...
.

To be honest I just kind of assumed the 3 in the list of makers marks must be a stylized Z because there is a Z in Hernandez and a 3 is a bit meaningless. But I agree it's probably not his mark, as I don't see why it would be mirrored.

But to echo your post, what do I know? }|:oP

[Jim McDougall]

The idea of the stylized '3' at this point for me is a bit out of reach, the image of the punzone is too pixelated for me to make out, also it is clearly much degenerated.
However, the 3 as a mark or element of punzone makers mark in Toledo seems to exist, and not only to Sebastian Hernandez, who has two recorded (59,60). ..but also Ignacio Fernandez (#69). What is puzzling is that it is a number, while many others use capital letters which seem to have nothing to do with the initials of the maker represented.

In the many years I have studied the markings and inscriptions on sword blades, I have of course encountered a great deal of opposition as this topic is far too esoteric for most scholarly attention. It is greatly subjective as these matters were mostly components of occult, magic and secret groups and followings.
Clearly we can only speculate, but it is intriguing to consider the various plausibilities, and occasionally some compelling possibilities have come to light.

With this punzone, as with many, the most reliable perspective is in noting the shape overall, and observing the spurious use of these as often seen. Coupling that with the blade style with comparable period examples is probably the best course.

Interestingly, the use of the number 3, I have seen on the blades of Thomas Gill, a Birmingham, England maker on some of his blades at the forte in the 1780s,90s. This does not seem to correspond to other markings which would suggest any administrative protocols.

[fernando]

... The idea of the stylized '3' at this point for me is a bit out of reach, the image of the punzone is too pixelated for me to make out, also it is clearly much degenerated.
However, the 3 as a mark or element of punzone makers mark in Toledo seems to exist, and not only to Sebastian Hernandez, who has two recorded (59,60). ..but also Ignacio Fernandez (#69). What is puzzling is that it is a number, while many others use capital letters which seem to have nothing to do with the initials of the maker represented...
Jim you mean 89,90 :o.
I thought that the odds have shown us that the stylized figure is not a '3' but a 'Z', as approached now and a while back :o.
And yes, the foggy pictures provided show no evidence of the discussed mark being that of one of the suggested smiths, also as here approached ;).

[werecow]

The idea of the stylized '3' at this point for me is a bit out of reach, the image of the punzone is too pixelated for me to make out, also it is clearly much degenerated.
However, the 3 as a mark or element of punzone makers mark in Toledo seems to exist, and not only to Sebastian Hernandez, who has two recorded (59,60). ..but also Ignacio Fernandez (#69). What is puzzling is that it is a number, while many others use capital letters which seem to have nothing to do with the initials of the maker represented.

Both Hernandez and Fernandez end in a 'z', which might explain their use of the 3 (if it was in fact a stylized 'z').

[fernando]

Exending further on previously posted assumption by Don Enrique de Leguina in his work LOS MAESTROS ESPADEROS by (1897 ?) and the paper "Tres
espadas de la época de Felipe II conservadas en la Armeria del Palacio Real de Madrid" by Fernando A. Martin, the evidence that Sebastian Hernandez (and son) personal symbol was a Z and not a 3, seems to be unbeatable.


,

[Jim McDougall]

Exending further on previously posted assumption by Don Enrique de Leguina in his work LOS MAESTROS ESPADEROS by (1897 ?) and the paper "Tres
espadas de la época de Felipe II conservadas en la Armeria del Palacio Real de Madrid" by Fernando A. Martin, the evidence that Sebastian Hernandez (and son) personal symbol was a Z and not a 3, seems to be unbeatable.


,

Well proven Fernando!!! Since the use of letters (as initials or ???) is well established, and no other use of numbers seems apparent....the letter Z is it. It is hard to figure why the selection of the last letter of a name is used but as observers hundreds of years later, who knows what idiosyncrasies were at hand. With the 'P' some have suggested 'Pedro' which was indeed the name of some the makers, but again, inconsistencies prevail.

[fernando]

Jim, you will notice that a great part of the punzones listed in the nomina have letters that, to us, have nothing to do with their names ... first or family ones. Smiths were wise and they sure knew what they meant with those ... but we don't. Apparently in some cases the letter refers to the place where they came from, or worked before ... but not all.
I have sent email to a true specialist, asking for his perspective over the Hernandez punzon symbol. Hopefuly he will answer my question and has ever given some thought on this subject.

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, you will notice that a great part of the punzones listed in the nomina have letters that, to us, have nothing to do with their names ... first or family ones. Smiths were wise and they sure knew what they meant with those ... but we don't. Apparently in some cases the letter refers to the place where they came from, or worked before ... but not all.
I have sent email to a true specialist, asking for his perspective over the Hernandez punzon symbol. Hopefuly he will answer my question and has ever given some thought on this subject.

Thats a great point Fernando! Knowing that the Toledo mark was a T of course, it seems quite likely that the letters may have related to the locations where these smiths worked, much as your suggestion of Zaragosa. While Toledo of course carried the famed reputation, there were certainly shops in other locations surrounding the region.

I seem to have track of the history of the Palomares nomina, which you thoroughly described at some point over the years. Can you remind me of how and when this key compilation was originated? I wonder if its sources might have clues to older records that might have such lost details.

[fernando]

Alo like the 'S' in the Sahagun family punzones reflects their origin (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahag%C3%BAn), if i recall.
Let me see if manage to upload here the Palomares article; where i guess there are no clues on what we are looking for, any how.

PS
No, too heavy to upload here; will send to you by email; and hope you can read Spanish (Castillian) ;)


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[Triarii]

This looks more like it, but don't know any more on Moreno. 'Before 1700' may be too late.

[Triarii]

Back in the original topic, got round to cleaning up the sword that started the thread, and found this crucifixion mark on the blade.

[fernando]

Interesting; never saw one with the INRI initials.


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[SimonM77]

Maybe number 89 or 90 (Sebastian Hernandez)? Although it almost looks like a mirror image. Could the phone have flipped the image perhaps?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=210478&stc=1&d=1628076449http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=210479&stc=1&d=1628076464

Do you know which books these are from? :)

[fernando]

Do you know which books these are from? :)
I think i have already given you an answer on that by email, Simon :confused:; even passed you the Palomares PDF full article !

[SimonM77]

I think i have already given you an answer on that by email, Simon :confused:; even passed you the Palomares PDF full article !

Haha! Thats embarrassing! :D Sowwy!