Shotley Bridge swordmakers

[urbanspaceman]

Hello All. I am researching for a new 'local history' book about the Shotley Bridge sword-makers. I live nearby; although I am neither a collector nor an expert on swords, but the more I learn - the more enthusiastic I become. I have collated all published information to date regarding the SB smiths, but there is still much to learn and there will be occasions when I hope I might ask for your help.
I recently acquired a sword that I suspect may be a SB blade and I continue to search for alternative styles purely as reference material and possibly display material either during local lectures and/or as part of a display in one of our museums here on Tyneside. They already have five so far but the magical 'Hollow Blade' that SB were famous for has yet to materialise.
Because SB was in the heart of what became an enormous steel making area, and central to the industrial revolution, I have also branched out into that history to broaden the interest horizon beginning with the start of Wootz and coming up to the present day.
I would be most grateful to learn anything regarding SB swords as I am certain there is still much to discover.
Cheers, K.

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, K.
I hope you succeed in your research :cool: .

[M ELEY]

I know I've seen threads briefly mentioning both the Shotley Bridge and Houndslow makers in the past. Perhaps if you do a search on the Forum archives, you might find some material. I know Jim McDougall had some tidbits on them as well. Hopefully, one of the Forumites might have a thing or two to add...

[Jim McDougall]

Hello K.
Welcome to the forum, and I am delighted to see your interest in researching the Shotley Bridge sword makers, which of course cannot be achieved without recognition of the Hounslow sword makers nor the mysterious Hollow Sword Blade Co.

Using those key names in addition to Shotley Bridge in search function on this forum (on the header, 'search') you will find considerable detailing in our discussions over the past two decades.

One important source which has notable footnoted and bibliographical references is "The Smallsword in England", James Aylward, 1945. There are numbers of books, pamphlets and papers on the Shotley Sword makes, who were of course primarily of Solingen families primarily who had come to England in the first half of the 17th century.

The question is, what exactly are you seeking, what have you already learned, and what sources have you already consulted either online or in actual published material?

There are far too many angles and aspects of the complexities of these sword and blade producing situations with these entities to discuss randomly, and I look forward to more specific details.

Mark, thank you as always! We've always touched on these topics so often, and pretty well laced our archives with material on these subjects.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Shotley Bridge was a famous sword making centre as already noted by Jim and others although it was only a village but as you know sitting almost on top of the river Derwent which formed the county Durham and Northumberland border in that area. That water power from the river drove the great grinding wheels of the sword factory and quenching, tempering etc which was I understand in Wood Street running parallel to the river 150 feet from the actual Bridge itself. Apart from the House which contained the factory there is little of the original street standing and I believe it was nearly all demolished by about 1960. At intervals water was used in steel production etc in kilns as far up the river as Allensford...about 8 miles... and there was another industrial location about 3 miles up river called the Iron Forge which I believe also manufactured paper. (All disappeared now except for a mansion house) At the end of the village there was a meeting place now a house which was the Cutlers Hall owned by the Sword Makers Owners...who owned a lot of the village including the local hostelry which is still there : THE CROWN AND CROSSED SWORDS. (Two minutes stroll from the Sword Makers in Wood Street)

As for the Hollow Sword ....I believe the term was used to describe the grinding process concave or convex on the sword edge .. hollow ground being the sharpest. See the second reference below.

You may have read it but others may have not...http://www.the-nut.net/articles/shotley_swords.php

And this is a vital document Please see http://www.rapper.org.uk/archive/shotley_swords.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Hello K,
Still intrigued by your query, I have looked further, and though I presently lack my notes from many earlier researches into this topic, I wanted to add more.
It is difficult to accurately fathom the Shotley Bridge situation without considering the matters of the Hounslow Heath mills, which seem to have ceased around c. 1620-30 with King Charles I bringing in expatriate German smiths of Solingen who had fled to Holland. Contrary to beliefs about religious persecution, the devastations of the Thirty Years war was more the cause, as the industry there was severely curtailed.

q.v. "British Military Swords" Vol. 1, 1600-1660, Stuart Mowbray, 2013.
Brilliantly researched, written and fantastically illustrated, there is a chapter on the Hounslow sword mills, and on p.244, a Shotley Bridge hanger (held in York Castle, #CA810) which is dated 1689, marked SHOTLEY BRIDG.
It has the characteristic 'running wolf' (termed fox in English description).

The Hounslow operations were quite turbulently impacted by the English Civil Wars of mid 17tyh century, and effectively seem to have ceased by 1658. The last swords there seem to have been navy hangers,
and a thorough paper by Leslie Southwick is presented in,
"The London Cutler Benjamin Stone and the Hounslow Sword and Blade Manufacturers", ("Royal Armouries", vol. 6, #1, 2009, pp.12-61.

Moving to the Shotley Bridge situation, I found a very good account online in "The Victoria History of the County of Durham" Vol. 2, ed. William Page (1907). p.288,

Basically other references note that the Shotley Bridge operation probably began around 1685 (the sword previously described 1689), but it seems it had troubled existence. Many of the German makers had returned to Germany after the end of the Hounslow enterprise, but some still remained as well as some English makers who had been involved, in other minor operations. By 1691 it seems that the Hollow Sword Blade Co. was formed to import and fabricate 'hollow blade rapiers' and many blades were to be brought in and furbished at Shotley Bridge. One of the former Hounslow makers, Hermann Mohll, was called back from Germany by the Company and was bringing in some 100 blades.
With profound concerns on importing these, Mohll was arrested and other intrigues continued.

By 1702, the company which was then known as the HOLLOW SWORD BLADE CO. failed with the suicide of its founder. Interestingly the Shotley Bridge term was marked on the blades along with the 'running wolf' on blades of hanger type. Still, 'hollow' simply referred to ground down blade faces to lighten blade.

While the sword business itself technically had failed, a group of shrewd business enterpreneurs took the name Hollow Sword Co. and apparently operated as a bank covertly to fund an enterprise as the South Sea Company. It seems that Herman Mohll in 1703 moved the actual sword business to London (I believe Birmingham technically).
q.v. "The Hollow Sword Blade Co. and Sword Making at Shotley Bridge"
need to locate author details.

In these times, 'South Seas' referred to South America, and involved was trade, which included providing slaves to these countries as well as the Central American.
In addition to these scandalous dealings were acquisitions of Irish lands confiscated from Jacobites in these struggles, by 1708 beginning to unravel, and in 1720 with the 'South Sea Bubble' collapse.

Hermann Mohll, in Birmingham had anglicized his name to MOLE, and Henry Nock, a worker at Shotley Bridge had gone to London to begin the fabrication of firearms, later becoming Wilkinson Sword Co. who acquired Mole in 1921.

It seems that the Shotley Bridge hangers were marked as previously noted and with running wolf.
If you could provide a photo and details perhaps we might better determine the plausibility of it being of that provenance.

The 'hollow blade' term is simply for 'hollow ground' and has nothing to do with the fanciful notions that these were actually hollow. I have seen the tales of blades hollow and filled with mercury which would move in the direction of the blow adding kinetic force purportedly etc.

These matters are as you can see a bit complicated as far as this history, but working with actual examples to be considered we can better analyze their character and probable date and source.

Looking forward to hearing from you and more on your planned project.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Folks, and thank-you for the warm welcome.
Because I live a mere 40 minutes from Shotley Bridge, you would have expected me – and this applies to almost everyone here on Tyneside and its environs – to have known at least a little about the sword-makers. However, it was only when I came across a local-history publication, regarding the SB Smiths, about twenty years ago, that my attention was alerted. The book, published in 1973, and written by David Richardson – the grandson of Mary Oley (the penultimate resident extant of the Solingen immigrants) had been the go-to source of information until David Atkinson brought things up to date in 1987. This book was subsequently revised and updated by John G. Bygate at the turn of this century (isn't it strange to have to specify which century is turning?); and until Richard H. Bezdek brought fresh knowledge and insight to the history in his book 'Swords and Sword Makers of England and Scotland' there was precious little else other than spurious articles here and there such as were mentioned by your own Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Consequently, further investigations were confined to simply keeping an ear cocked until a friend, who works around the area giving talks on local history and heritage, asked me for any subjects she might pursue, and I suggested the SB sword-makers, little realising that she expected me to present her with all the salient facts and etc (story of my life).
As I began to refresh and update my knowledge of the subject I realised there was a great deal missing and a great deal in error (the business of Mohll and Mole being a perfect example) that demanded diligent research.
I've been at it, off and on, for most of this year now; found an SB sword (I hope); learned, by osmosis, much that is of interest but not necessarily pertinent; and realised there was sufficient material for a new book; although, we are talking about a self-published, local-history booklet here, such as I have successfully achieved before on alternative subjects.
Obviously, I can't begin to detail all the material I have accumulated this far, but one thing keeps cropping-up again and again that has led me to suspect we may have all been the subjects of a gigantic ruse, and that is the total absence of an SB made trefoil short-sword to date. However, "The Smallsword in England", James Aylward, 1945, may change my mind once I have acquired said book – thank-you Jim – so I am about to buy a copy forthwith. That aside, has anyone ever seen one?
OK: hopefully, this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
Best Regards, Keith.
ps. Just to whet your appetites, I have attached an exceptional couple of pictures.
[IMG]

[urbanspaceman]

You were writing your last post as I was mine Jim; however, being a newbie, my post awaits moderation. Thank-you, I can see we have much to discuss.
This post is by way of explaining what the pictures are that I attached to my previous post: the picture of Joseph Oley c.1880 shows the very last sword-smith to operate in SB; he quit in 1840 and became an auctioneer (and grew vegetables). The other picture is of Nicholas Oley, his grandson, who died in 1964 (in SB) holding the last ever blade made by his grandfather.
I suspect that blade was sold by auction here in England last year but I have yet to confirm that. The auctioneer told me that it was submitted by a one-time resident of SB who assured him it was made by Oley; I am waiting to speak to the vendor.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank you for your post ...Can you outline which details are spurious although you probably refer to notes in the references perhaps also linked to the secretive nature of the German originators...?
What is your description of the two photographs please?
One or both is Nicholas Oley last surviving member of the Swordmakers from http://www.geocities.ws/lacbillj/shotley.html oh I see your post above... OK.

Below are some other ethnographics...The Children actually standing on the Shotley Bridge..The Swordmakers house on wood street visible from the Bridge...with what is the old flour mill behind it.

Harvey Withers notes at http://harveywithers.co.uk/the-sword-in-britain-1600-1700-a-brief-history/Quote"At the end of the 17th Century, immigrant German sword makers also established an extensive sword making community in Shotley Bridge, County Durham, in the north of the country. The abundance of iron ore deposits and the fast flowing River Derwent created the ideal conditions for sword production. It was here that we see the development of a hollow ground or triangular blade that greatly enhanced the strength and durability of smallswords."Unquote.

I do note however that a lot of raw material was imported...

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Keith,
Thank you for adding additional detail and comments as well as the pictures. As I mentioned, I have researched on these topics off and on since about the 70s (my copy of Aylward I have had since around 1976), and the complexities of the English and German swordsmiths have been at the fore many times. In those days there were no computers or web, and research was slow mail, book search with stores and inter library loan processes.

Still, material was to be found, though the very nature of most of the Hounslow, Hollow Sword Blade Co and of course Shotley Bridge relied on information at hand in old accounts and much of it quite controversial.
Inevitably there are misperceptions, misinformation, and perhaps even deliberately altered or contrived versions of data which became lodged in these accounts.

With the web we can now recheck and cross reference material, and I will say that Ibrahiim is one of our most tenacious searchers in online material. Some may prove less than accurate as we evaluate and discover more, but I do not believe most to be spurious, but as with much at hand, some less accurate than others.

Turning to the blades of Shotley Bridge, I think there are some misconceptions as I look at Aylward (1945, p.33),

"...such Shotley Bridge swords are commonly seen as big double edged weapons bearing the words SHOTLEY BRIDGE in their fullers, and fitted with the 'Walloon hilts' used by cavalry in the Monmouth Rebellion and Marlborough campaign periods, but as the factory always claimed to specialize in 'hollow' blades, small swords mounted with their productions may exist, though it does not seem that the tang marks which might identify them are known.
It looks as if the company imported forgings from Solingen which it ground, tempered and finished in Shotley".

Here I would note that the notion of Walloon type swords for these campaigns would not have been produced at Shotley Bridge which does not seem to have begun until around 1687, but then more likely at Hounslow, which seems to have ceased around 1658. However, the Hounslow mills seem to be more focused on hangers, naval types in particular.

The 'Hollow Sword Blade Co.'was formed as noted earlier in 1688, but did not charter and begin bringing in blades until 1691, apparently to mount rapier blades from the Continent.
Aylward notes (op.cit. p.36),
"...as we deduce from the name, the Hollow Sword Blade Co.' the qualities of the blade with THREE HOLLOWED FACES were beginning to find appreciation, and there is no doubt that cutlers were mounting them, though principally for duelist customers".

On p. 39, Aylward notes that these triple edged (or 'hollow') blades were characteristic of the smallsword. These were of course becoming very popular in place of rapiers.

While the Hollow Sword Blade Co. in name faltered as this was in fact a ruse to operate as a bank for the schemes of the South Sea Company with trade and slaves to South America and real estate confiscations in Ireland.
Shotley Bridge as a sword making entity apparently remained active in some fashion as late as 1808, as Aylward lists names of makers there that late.

Apparantly the mill was closed in 1702 after the arrest of Hermann Mohll for importing German blades (I believe these were the 'hollow' blades) and reopened in 1716 ...his son William sold to Robert Oley in 1724. I think this is when the business moved to Birmingham outside London (in 1690 there was a warehouse at the sign of the Five Beds in a London warehouse at New Street near Shoe Lane operated by the Shotley Bridge group).

It does not seem that the small sword blades were marked to Shotley, or anyone else as they were imported either finished or ground there.
It also seems that small swords were primarily furbished by jewelers or such outfitters who obtained blades at these kinds of outlets.

I am curious now that I think of it, of the Birmingham maker Samuel Harvey who produced hangers and sword blades around mid 18th c. He used a running wolf with the initials SH enclosed as a blade mark. It seems some have suggested 'SH' (= Shotley?) or more plausibly his own initials.
Interesting though.......the running wolf used at Hounslow and by the Shotley Bridge makers......though not seen after 17th c. maybe this was to recall those makers in a spurious application?

[Jim McDougall]

Keith, I just noticed your previous post in which we crossed posts.
It is truly puzzling on the existence of blade producing in Shotley Bridge even in the mid 18th century let alone the 19th. The only swords I have seen marked SHOTLEY BRIDG are of 17th c.
As I mentioned Samuel Harvey using the fox/wolf, I find that many of his swords are simply marked HARVEY or SH, without fox. In those times about mid 18th c. there were only several makers producing swords for the govt. and they were in Birmingham. By the 1780s and into the early years of the 19th there were what became known as the 'sword scandals' concerning the quality of British blades and profound import of German blades. The key proponents were Thomas Gill; James Wooley and Henry Osborne. Until 1790s there were few other blade makers, and JJ Runkel was a German importing blades there in London.

It seems possible that small sword blades were either produced or finished at Shotley Bridge, but although Aylward names makers there, it seems odd more is not mentioned. In checking "The Rapier and Smallsword 1400-1820" AVB Norman, there is entirely no mention of Shotley Bridge nor Hollow Sword Blade Co.; also in "Schools and Masters of Fence" by Egerton Castle, 1885, no mention of any of these.

If these three entities were indeed prevalent or even present in producing swords for fence or dueling after the earlier period of around late 17th c. Aylward mentions, they would have been mentioned in these highly detailed sources.

Egerton Castle does mention the triangular blades (op. cit. p.238),
"...about the period of the Restoration the triangular fluted blade came into fashion in England, having been first adopted by the French between 1650-1660".

Clearly the triangular blade seemed a good prospect to create the Hollow Sword Blade Co., but the term 'hollow' seems to have totally escaped writers of the times, leading to the nonsensical notions which were later perpetuated by Victorian writers into 'sword lore'.

On April 10th, 2012 in one of our discussions, Ibrahiim found and posted this:
from "Statistical and Social Inquiry Society of Ireland" concerning the confiscated lands in Jacobite situations.
By T.U.Sadlier, Fri. 21 April, 1933, on the Hollow Sword Blade Co.,
"...engaged in the manufacture of sword blades hollowed out to contain a quantity of mercury, which falling to the inside of the point at every blow, gave added force to the stroke".

This illustrates the kind of fanciful nonsense often created by writers in earlier times, particularly the Victorian period, and this example most certainly constitutes the kind of spurious material often among data collected on these topics. It is included simply to offer perspective to the misunderstanding of the term 'hollow' as to sword blades.

Truly a great subject, and hope we can find more on just how long the Shotley Bridge entity really DID exist; why they do not appear in any blade making lists after 17th c. and what kind of blades did they produce (or import)?

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Folks. You've got me off to a splendid start; I only hope my notes have enough order to allow my answering your questions. So, beginning at the start with those 'spurious' details Ibrahiim asked about, as I feel they are universally misused:
there is conclusive evidence that there were Germans in the immediate neighbourhood at least sixty years earlier, for the first legible entry in the oldest Ebchester register is of the following: “Eleanor, the daughter of Matthias Wrightson Oley, baptised 1628.”
From: Monthly Chronicle of North-Country Lore and Legend. Vol II, No. 15. May 1888.

I'm afraid the chronicler was over excited by this piece of evidence and didn't examine it more closely (given the date, he may well have needed decent spectacles) as it isn't 'Oley' but an abbreviation denominating a church position: cl lic. which he had believed was ollie. Matthias Wrightson was curate at that church.
A great pity, as it had given me a reason for the choice of location because, let's face it, there's nothing at Shotley Bridge that can't be found at hundreds of alternate locations around the UK and, equally, probably far better known. So I had to start again and try to figure out why SB.
There are two names that I believe are responsible for the choice of location: Bertrams and Vintings. I further understand that they were well versed in iron ore mining and smelting due to their lineage – which I have yet to establish in fact, but my working hypothesis is that they are descended from the "ingenious artisans (whom 'Humphries and Shute' brought over when the Charter of the Mines Royal was granted to them in 1565) at the head of twenty foreign labourers. They had exclusive patents to dig and search for various metals and to refine the same in England and Ireland; and that three years afterwards, the charter was extended when the Duke of Norfolk and others were added to the governors and the whole was styled “The Society of the Mineral and Battery Works."
From: Monthly Chronicle of North-Country Lore and Legend. Vol II, No. 15. May 1888.

I've got to find out where these chaps came from – and why; although iron ore mining and smelting had been going on in the Derwent valley since BCE, and would become the biggest in Europe with the arrival of Sir Ambrose Crowley.

Then, having lost my idealised beginning, I lost my perfect ending, because (see Robert Wilkinson-Latham) there is definitely no connection between Mohll of SB and Mole of Birmingham; as much as everyone up here would like to believe that the SB enterprise ultimately culminated in Wilkinson's Sword. The fact that we had a WS factory up here on Tyneside, and that they had SB swords in a glass case in their reception, lent weight to the fallacy but, sadly, fallacy it is.

I am going to throw two facts into the pot now:
firstly, The Earl of Derwentwater was the local aristo, the big job around those parts, and he was a notorious Jacobite: lost his head in the Tower as a result.
Secondly, in 1815, during the Napoleonic wars, much diligent searching was going on looking for infiltrators, and during a search of Danby Castle (on the North York Moors) they found a chest hidden in a secret compartment in a chimney: a chest of swords apparently intended for the Jacobite army with blades made in Shotley Bridge.
Add to the above the business of Mohll's possession of chests of blades on his arrest, when his ship was searched for Scottish and Irish soldiers (i.e. Jacobites) and I am coming to the conclusion that Hollow Blades was a ruse based on the prevailing popular fashion of the time to disguise the real earner i.e. military blades.
I need to look into the lives of the two Londoners who teamed up with John Sanford from Newcastle and Johannes Dell (Johnathan bell) of Hounslow fame, to form the first enterprise at SB in 1685 with Peter Henekels and Heinrich Hoppe. Remember, these chaps moved to Oxford with their king – Charles Ist.

Here's something I'm stuck on that maybe someone can clarify: does anyone know who – in England – invented this machine?
1830-3 the invention of a roll-forge for blades which Mr. Fritz Weyersberg saw in England. He then purchased the patent and the forge was introduced to and implemented in Solingen. With this machine, which still exists today at WKC, he was able to forge multiple blades in a short space in time.
Tbc.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thanks Jim on that detail of the Hollow Blade Company to which I refer readers to http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/tns.1934.012 an account of the spurious story outlined therein. :shrug:

View the amazing underhand dealings that occurred with this company at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_Sword_Blade_Company :shrug:

In an apparently unrelated article I discovered interesting facts on the Sword Makers obscurely...please see ; The swordmakers of Shotley Bridge from an angling association website http://www.derwentangling.co.uk/about/until-the-river-ceases-to-flow/until-the-river-ceases-to-flow-part-2/

Quote"1687 heralded the arrival of the swordmakers from Solingen in West Germany. The names of these refugees’ families were recorded as Oley, Vooz, Mole and Bertram. There are a couple of theories behind their arrival, one being religious persecution, but there is no evidence to support them having being expelled from Germany for being Protestant. Nevertheless it still remains the most popular theory as to why they came to such a remote village under a veil of secrecy. The second and on the face of it more likely explanation was the introduction of new machinery which was threatening the livelihood of some of the Solingen swordmakers. So it is possible that it was simply time to move on.

In 1831, a Newcastle man visiting the works was told that their German forefathers were brought to Shotley Bridge by a company of gentlemen with the licence of Government as a commercial venture. This seems plausible and there is evidence connecting John Sandford and John Bell of Newcastle to the company at that time. Both men being of this area, they would have known the suitability of the River Derwent for siting a steel works on account of it having soft water as well as the excellent mill stone grit in the riverbed which was also very good for sharpening the blades. Indeed, on certain stones today it’s still possible to see grooves left by “slipping” and tempering of the precious blades. So there were obvious reasons for them to build their shops and houses near the river. Perhaps the most important reason though was that the Derwent was a fast running river, so ideal for operating and driving the mills. The nearby woods were also a perfect source of wood to make charcoal for the furnaces. And transportation was no problem, with a road down the valley to Derwenthaugh and Newcastle, then on to markets in London and Europe by sea.


Forge Cottage
The quality of their product far surpassed the inferior English swords. At the time, the troubled reign of James II was in progress and a civil war a distinct possibility, so maybe they thought they could supply both sides with swords. The Hollow Blade Sword Company was formed, the hollow blade sword having a hollow inner with three flat sides; this meant with their combined lightness and rigidity the sword point could be bent back to the hilt, then when released would spring back to its original shape. The company was later renamed The Sword Blade Bank. The new company stuttered through the 18th century, but gained a new lease of life with the outbreak of the Napoleonic Wars, which proved very lucrative. But when the war ended in 1815, the final decline began, with the development of other steel-making towns in Sheffield and Birmingham. Nevertheless the swordmaking industry continued in Shotley Bridge until 1840, ran by Joseph Oley (a former committee member of the Derwent Angling Association) who later became an auctioneer in the village for 50 years. Living to almost a hundred years of age, he was buried in 1896 alongside other members of his family, Richard and Christopher, in Ebchester parish church yard. On his headstone is the inscription: ‘The last of the Shotley Bridge sword makers’. The swordmakers’ buildings in Wood Street remained until just a few years ago, only being demolished to make way for a new terrace row which bears their name.



The sword in the hat

Many stories have been passed down over the years about the swordmakers of Shotley Bridge. On one occasion, Robert Oley became involved in a wager with eight of the top swordmakers in the country as to who could manufacture the best, most flexible blade. A meeting was set for two weeks to the day. When Oley appeared at the meeting place with no sword in his hand, the other swordmakers declared him the loser of the bet. Whereupon he took off his hat and threw it on the table. There for all to see, inside the hat coiled around the rim, was a double edge sword, and he was instantly declared the winner. He then offered his winnings to anyone who could remove it from the hat, but of course it was so tightly wound that no one could.

Another story was that a member of the Oley family travelled to London in the early 19th century to take part in a competition to produce the finest sword in all of England. Oley won the crown for his sword and The Sword Inn in the heart of Shotley Bridge was renamed The Crown and Crossed Swords in his honour. This pub plays a large part in the local community and is now the headquarters of the Derwent Angling Association. Some of these excellent swords are preserved and line the walls in Hamsterley Hall, home of the former Lord Gort. Some of the descendants of those first swordmaking families can trace their roots back to razorblade giant Wilkinson Sword, while some members of the Mole family moved to Birmingham and continued their business a few years longer. In 1889, Robert Mole and Sons was bought out and absorbed into Wilkinsons of Pall Mall, although not actually taken over until 1920. Wilkinson Sword (International) Ltd, chiefly noted for the production of safety razors and razor blades, still has a production plant in Solingen. The crossed swords proudly adorn the company logo, maintaining the link with their swordmaking heritage."Unquote.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here is a further site expanding on the general dispute over the whole issue and goings on with the Shotley Bridge Swordmakers...

https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/14807896-literature-review-5-the-hollow-blade-by-john-g-bygate

See also page 34 of https://oldswords.com/articles/Smallswords%20-%20Overlooked%20Collectibles-v1i1.pdf

[urbanspaceman]

I'm afraid my contributions are coming out of sequence due to the moderator needing to pre-view; I'll need to allow longer gaps before I post.

[urbanspaceman]

With reference for my request for information about the roll-forge still at use in WKC Solingen: I spoke to Andre Willms at WKC and he referred me to the Klingenmuseum in Solingen, but unfortunately they were not able to help either. Somebody must know!

[urbanspaceman]

sorry, posted this prematurely; still getting used to the system and only wanted to preview not submit.

[urbanspaceman]

I gather Richard H. Bezdek passed away recently; and going by the one publication of his that I have acquired, I have to declare it is a tremendous loss to the sword collecting community.
So I want to do two things here (and Mr Moderator, if I am breaking forum rules please forgive me and delete, then I will know not to make the same mistake again), first, to acknowledge just how much work the man did in this field; and second, to clarify the beginnings of the Shotley Bridge endeavours - following my indication in an earlier post that it began with Johannes Dell (Bell), Peter Henekels and Heinrich Hoppe in 1685.
I will now quote from Mr Bezdek's book, because he has collated the odds and ends of information I had previously discovered quite perfectly, and if I had read his book first I could have saved myself a lot of searching:
Swords and Swordmakers of England and Scotland.
It all started when Sir John Heyden, while on a diplomatic mission in Holland (probably Rotterdam) on behalf of King Charles I, encountered some German swordsmiths. The Germans were supposedly refugees fleeing from the terrors of the Thirty Years War. He persuaded some of them to immigrate to England and work under royal patronage.
These swordsmiths were members of several sword-related crafts from Solingen, including Schwertschmeides (swordsmiths), Klingenschmieldes (bladesmiths/blade forgers), Schwertschleifer (sword/blade grinders), Schwertfegers (sword/blade polishers), and Schwertharters (sword/blade hardeners).
The route to England from Solingen went through the Netherlands and coastal Holland to Rotterdum and then to London. That is why many documents of the time referred to the Solingen Germans who immigrated to England as Dutch and why they called their blades “Dutch” blades.
The leading Germans who set up blade mills were bladesmiths of some stature in Solingen (i.e., guild members) who employed other Germans.
The following German bladesmiths (probably blade mill owners) signed their blades:
• Peter Munsten the Younger (changed name to Peter English), c. 1629–1642
• Johann Kindt (Kinndt, Kennett), c. 1629–1659
• Johannes Hoppe (Hoppie) the Younger, c. 1633–1642
• Caspar Karn (Carnis), c. 1629–1642
• Clemens (Clamas) Meigen, c. 1629–1642
• Caspar Fleiseh, c. 1629–1642
• Johannes Dell (Bell), c. 1649–1685
Other known German swordsmiths and bladesmiths working in Hounslow were:
• Johann Konigs (Connyne), c. 1629–1642
• Clemens Horn the Younger, c.1629–1642
• Ceile Herder, c. 1649–1659
• Peter Henekels (Henkell), c. 1660–1685
• Johannes Meigen, c. 1629–1642
• Heinrich (Henry) Hoppe (Hoppie) the Elder, c.1629–1642
• Joseph Hoppe Hoppie, c. 1629–1642
When the parliamentary forces took over the Hounslow sword and blade center in 1642, they confiscated the mills of the German bladesmiths obedient to the king. The only bladesmiths to remain obedient to the parliamentary forces were the Germans Johann Kindt (Kinndt), Ceile Herder and Johannes Dell (Bell); and Englishman Henry Risby.
The other German bladesmiths followed King Charles I to his new headquarters at Oxford, where they would have worked at the blade mill at Glouster Hall, Oxford, or the sword mill at Wolvercote, near Oxford. They were Peter Munsten (English) the Younger, Caspar Fleisch, Clemens Horn the Younger, Johannes Hoppe (Hoppie) the Younger, Heinrich (Henry) Hoppe (Hoppie) the Elder, Johannes Meigen, Clemens (Clames) Meigen, and Caspar Karn (Carnis).
OK, back to me:
The perspicacious amongst you will note the absence of Peter Henekels; an oversight probably or... where was he before he showed up at Shotley Bridge? It's just such little mysteries that have me chasing red herrings but occasionally turning up interesting facts along the way.
Respect, Mr. Bezdek.

[Jim McDougall]

With reference for my request for information about the roll-forge still at use in WKC Solingen: I spoke to Andre Willms at WKC and he referred me to the Klingenmuseum in Solingen, but unfortunately they were not able to help either. Somebody must know!

Keith, in trying to respond to this I have to admit I am not familiar with metal working processes, so unclear what a 'roll forge' is. However, it seems possible that the 'rolling mill' might be what is meant?

The rolling mill was apparently around in England with Henry Cort and Funtley iron mills near Fareham, England with a patent around 1783. There seem to have been uses of this in Sweden earlier (1760s) and probably earlier. These apparently roll forged steel into the thinner stock for blades.

This further seems to have been known even as early as mid 17th century, as Robert Porter of Birmingham had a mill which supplied as many as 15,000 blades to Parliamentary forces in 1642. This in addition to the blades produced in Hounslow.
q.v. "The Making of Birmingham" Robert K. Dent (1894) p. 147, notes there were 'slitting and rolling' mills in several locations, including Digbeth, which was where Robert Porter had his mill. It states he converted his corn mill into a 'blade mill'.

The Royalist forces destroyed his mill after Edgehill (1643). However his son seems to have continued in Birmingham with blades as in 1686 he approached the Cutlers Company for approval.

In Aylward (1945, p.32) it is noted that the Hollow Sword Co. backed by Lord Dartmouth "...had a rolling mill at Hounslow, but in spite of this it petitioned for a patent for the importation, trial and marking of blades".
(this from "The Shotley Bridge Sword Blade Co." Appleby-Miller, 1943)

Interesting that this entry alludes to the Hollow Sword Co. which we know was centered at Shotley Bridge, but mentions a rolling mill at Hounslow. Hounslow by 1672 was in complete shambles by then, so why mention it as a viable mill for blades? Further it is clear that blades were to be brought in to be finished.

It sounds as if Birmingham production was pretty sound in these times, but their blades were not highly favored if I recall other notes.

Aylward (p.33) claims that small swords of Shotley Bridge may exist but none have tang marks which might identify them, and that it seems that the company imported forgings from Solingen which were ground, tempered and finished at Shotley. He provides lists of the makers there from Henry Hooper (Hoppe?) 1687; Adam Oley 1692; includes others Mohl and Oley and through the 18th century, with William Oley last in 1808.
Hermann Mohl is listed as a grinder 1687-1717.
Remember he is the one arrested with chests of blades in 1703 from Holland (Solingen blades) suggesting this practice of importation was right.

It does not seem that iron deposits or smelting were key to the location chosen for the Shotley premises, as the 'cementation' process required iron ore of higher quality, which was imported from Sweden to the port at Newcastle.

Regarding the case of Solingen, they apparently depended greatly on Swedish iron as well, though the deposits near there were high in manganese needed for pliable blades. Beech forests provided well for the carbon needed.
It seems there are mixed reviews on the actual production, the materials etc. so more work needed.

So why Shotley? Hounslow was still extant in some degree in 1672 and had mills, so why not refurbish it? Birmingham was active in production, but were their blades disfavored?
If Shotley and the Hollow Blade scam were just a front, why are Shotley makers listed through the entire 18th c. and why even into the 19th?

The rolling mills were introduced in Solingen in 1847.......Burton went there in 1860s and they were still using hammer and anvil. Why did the most industrious blade making center in the world not have these 'rolling mills' until mid 19th c. when it seems they were around early in the 17th and in England?

The more I read on these conundrums the more questions!

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Jim. I am sure that you are correct and it was a rolling mill they were referring-to.
I am equally puzzled as to why WKC in Solingen needed to buy a patent from us Brits; hence my following it up. However, the vexed subject of 'Luddites' is ever present when talking about Solingen, as I'm certain the introduction of machines was one of the main reasons why the sword-smiths were allowed to leave so easily.
Of course, Solingen is a Catholic city, so maybe it was the Lutherans that were surplus to requirements when the machines came along. That is what they were you know; they even brought a Lutheran preacher to Shotley Bridge with them: a fact I only discovered a couple of days ago when searching the archives of the museum that originally held Lord Gort's collection of swords in permanent display. There is nothing at Hamsterly Hall now, nor has there been for thirty years at least; Lord Gort left his collection to said museum in his will; I discovered that talking to the new owners of the hall many years ago.
Still, on that note, I'm scheduled to visit many of our manor-houses and inhabited castles, as we have an abundance, as I'm sure you are aware. I know a few of the local aristos which gets my foot in the door: Alnwick Castle, for example, has a huge armoury, and Mr. Percy is always looking for fundraising ideas now Mr. Potter has retired.
In reference to Aylward's mention of the Hollow Blade Co. at Hounslow: I am certain this is an error.
The Germans at SB initially used local iron ore – there are an abundance of old mines known locally as the German Bands – but soon switched to Swedish imports before eventually using Dan Hayward, which is what Sir Ambrose Crowley was doing as well.
With regard to Hounslow: according to one source, the latest 'dated' Hounslow blade known is 1637 (that needs corroborating), but deliveries from William Walker, who owned a mill at Hounslow, were still on-going in 1660 when he supplied the Board of Ordnance with 1,000 Hangers for sea service. In 1674, Peter Munsten (English) and Henry Hoppe (the elder) approached the London Cutlers Company intending to establish a hollow ground sword blade factory in Hounslow, but nothing happened. Apparently, there was almost no output from Hounslow by 1675.
I certain that the initial enterprise at SB in 1685 with Hoppe, Dell and Henekels was for hollow blade small-swords (they had brought their German grinding engine with them after-all) but the demand for military blades that subsequently materialised meant that the extra 19 families were brought over. I don't think secrecy was required to protect their processes – the Germans had been keeping their secrets safe for over a hundred years, since the Greenwich arsenal began – I think it was to allow them to supply both sides during the Jacobite rebellions; and allow Mohll to beef-up productivity by bringing in Solingen stock. It's quite probable that the death of the Earl of Derwentwater in 1716 may have put paid to their cash cow.
The search goes ever on and on…

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This is a great thread Kieth well done on digging out all the names and other details... Something sparks in my mind about the rolling mill situation as the swordmakers backs onto the Derwent and at that point you can see a derelict eroded wall and I think this encased the rolling mil. Emphasis on I think ! There was I understand a huge stone wheel shaped object lying against one of the supporting walls and I believe it was at the terminus of a number of water courses drawn from about 500 metres up river which were tunneled under the road at the Durham end of the Bridge. The water may have been brought in to turn the wheel...and for tempering etc This wheel was a gigantic stone grinding wheel...of several tons ...and it seems to have gone? Has the Beamish Industrial Museum got it? There is a reference to it in one of my web references which I will try to dig up.

Having dug that up....Chapter 3: To Shotley

Bygate mentions that corn milling and coal mining were established in the local area and that there were accredited English swordmakers in Newcastle. He also refers to a half-sculpted grind stone next to the River Derwent

Could this have been a rolling mill grind stone ...?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I begin to have my doubts on some of the supposed Shotley Swords ...or claimed as Shotley swords...such as from~

https://collection.maas.museum/object/241752

Although it would fit very nicely into my suggestion that since the hotel/public house; ...The Crown and Crossed Swords was part of the Sword makers estate; ...that if the emblem was Two English basket swords crossed below a crown;...that swords of the Basket variety would have been made there?...see below.
On reflection the sword dates seem somewhat odd...perhaps a typing error....since if Shotley didn't start making swords til 1685 how can a sword with 1596 be slated here as from there?... Would it not simply be a Solingen sword?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

What of this one ? ~ It seems genuine especially with Shotley Bridge inscribed down the blade in capital letters....

Write up by Thomas Del Mare on this sold item...

Quote"AN ENGLISH BRASS-HILTED SMALL-SWORD, CIRCA 1740
inscribed 'Shotley Bridge' and incised with the running fox, brass hilt cast in low relief, comprising double shell-guard with moulded brim interrupted on each side by a panel of scrolls centring on a grotesque, each face divided into a six-petalled flower incorporating allegorical figures and a pair of classical profile masks, globular quillon, near rectangular knuckle-guard, and ovoid pommel decorated with tendrils issuant from a grotesque mask, and the grip bound with plaited wire and 'Turks' heads'
72.5cm; 28 1/2in blade.'' Unquote.

[Jim McDougall]

Guys, this is a wonderful discussion! and the research and entries are incredible. These conundrums have been mulled over for well over a century and a half, and there have been so many misconceptions and wrongly placed notions. As I have mentioned, I have tried to get further into the Hounslow, Hollow Blade and Shotley mysteries many times over at least 40 years.
Each time the material (which was a struggle to find before computers and the web) was so conflicting and tangled I ended up setting it aside. It is amazing to go at it again with super sleuths!!

It seems to me that the tangled web of German sword makers in England is being brought to light here in an almost forensic way as we gather and share evidence for evaluation.

Here is the KEY POINT about forum discussions.....it is never about who is right or wrong, but always about finding the right or best answers.

At this point it appears that German smiths were indeed in England from even the Tudor period, and that Charles I did bring numbers of them into England as early as the 1620s where they formed the enterprise known as Hounslow sword makers. While the earlier examples were marked with makers names and Hounslow, the practice tailed off later. The swords continued being produced it seems even after the English Civil wars however the industry there had been disrupted as some of the smiths followed the King to his locations in Oxford and London.

We know that the Royalists were well supplied with swords and blades from those locations as well as profoundly from mills in Birmingham. Meanwhile, Hounslow had become a Parliamentary stronghold and their supplier.

After the Civil Wars it seems Hounslow slipped into disrepair and by 1672 a mere shadow of its early glory, though apparently still producing in degree.
In a sense, it seems that the Hounslow phenomenon actually transcended into the Shotley Bridge one, and via the mysterious anomaly known as the Hollow Sword Blade Co. This entity was to fashion the now popular type of blades for rapiers which had become popular in France for rapiers and small swords which was triangular in section. It was termed 'hollow' for the three faces which were in effect hollowed out or fluted (far from the nonsense of misguided persons who thought the blade was really hollow to contain mercury!!? ).

This took place around 1685, and while many of the Germans had gone back to Solingen decades before, many had remained in the trade in different locations, so effectively became part of the Shotley Bridge circumstance. In this venture, it appears that the Hollow Blade entity became more of a financial venture (actually operating as a bank) with the production of blades more in line with producing hangers and other blades, but not of these hollow type (as far as is known).

The confusion in all of this is that some of the Germans had Anglicized their names so we are not sure which are individual persons or duplicates in the records. We do know that there were numbers of blades made in Shotley which became well known on hangers and often even munitions grade swords which were marked and even with the famed running wolf device.
This was not as surmised, a guild mark or scornfully placed symbol toward Solingen, but a mark the German makers regarded proudly as a quality device which had been in long standing from early times in Passau.

It does appear that 'hollow blades' were being brought into England and refinished in Shotley Bridge and that Herman Mohll, one of the key figures in these enterprises, was arrested with bundles of swords being brought to Newcastle for Shotley on a Dutch ship in 1703. Some of these were listed as hangers, but the other bundles not described.

Whatever the case, it does seem that even though the Shotley enterprise was closed in 1703, Mohll reopened it in 1716 (but died that year as well), and his son took over, but in 1724 or at some point it was sold to the Oley's.
Here is the confusion on the Oley's, who in some cases are claimed to be the ones who went to Birmingham to be the progenitors of the firm which became MOLE (later bought by Wilkinsons in 1870s).

While Shotley Bridge seems to have existed through the 18th century and into the 19th, it is not listed among sword making records anywhere after about 1703.

Curiously, the Birmingham smith Samuel Harvey used occasionally, the Running Wolf device with his initials (c.1740s-50s) but whether this had anything to do with Shotley other than commemorative perhaps, is unknown.

My guess is that Shotley remained in place more in terms of a cutlery producer later in the 18th century and into the 19th, when Sheffield consumed that part of the business.

The Shotley blades of late 17th into beginning of 17th so marked were refurbished and passed on as heirlooms and highly regarded in many officers swords and civilian swords through the 18th century. This has given the impression that the Shotley sword making continued, while it was the blades which carried on.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Folks. It appears you have been at SB Ibrahiim; I began researching there about a dozen years ago and then again just last week, it is remarkable just how advanced is the gentrification of the place, often at the expense of heritage unfortunately; there is nothing to be learned from visiting the place now.
It was Richard Bezdek who discovered the earlier start at SB (i.e.1685 not 1687) but I think we can be certain no-one else was making swords with a running fox or wolf over here before that, as Ibrahiim so succinctly detailed in a post on a much earlier thread, 'it was never used at Hounslow'. I suppose it is just possible it was used at Greenwich, that I don't know – does anyone? Either way, it certainly wasn't used at SB in 1596.
With further regard to the use of the fox: Samuel Harvey commandeered the image of the fox to bestow prestige and quality on his blades. No doubt the dreadful reputation of Birmingham blades, back when he was starting out, persuaded him to purloin it. He always had initials in the outline however, so there's no doubt they are not SB blades; although a lot of reputable dealers in this country will tell you they are. I have even seen the H for Harvey altered to look like a B (not hard is it?).
Oleys in later years (1750s onwards) were using a distinctly singular fox impression: an auction last year sold just such a blade on behalf of an ex. SB resident who had first-hand knowledge of its provenance and indicated it was made by the Oleys.

I've found so much detail that is pertinent that I really don't think I can post it all, but maybe I can add what I've found that is missing so far - such as Bertrams and Vintings. We imported a lot of Germans to develop our lead and copper mining up here in Northern England (and probably everywhere else I suspect) in the 1500s (there was a lead mine at Ryton Village which is just minutes from SB) so I suspect Vintings may well be descended from those early settlers. Equally, the Bertrams name was in the area long before SB was developed and as a blast-furnace expert, and owner, he may well have been involved in the pre-development of the village, anticipating the sword-makers' arrivals. We had a cutler here in Newcastle also – Thomas Carnforth – who was closely involved with Mohll (testified on his behalf during Mohll's imprisonment) and was equally certainly involved with Johannes Dell (John Bell) in setting up the syndicate, as he definitely needed a ready supply of 'hollow blades'.
With regard to the yearly output of the village: I am sure they made suitable swords for the Jacobites back in 1688 and onwards; just as I am certain they made them for Parliament. I think they simply made swords for a living and did not care where they went or who used them. Let's face it: after enduring the Thirty Years War, they would definitely want to keep their heads down and get on with their work. As we move along in time, outside factors impacted to a greater and a lesser degree, but so long as the mill-wheel kept turning they kept eating.
In 1690, it was stated by Sir Stephen Evance in a petition for a royal charter that the Germans were to be using their mills and engines expressly to produce hollow blades:
[I]Our said subjects, at their great charge and management, have imported from foreign parts, divers persons, who have exercised in their own country the said art of making hollow sword blades by the use of certain newly invented instruments, engines and mills and by the contrivance of our said subjects, have prevailed upon them to expose themselves, to the hazard of their lives to impart to our said subjects their art and mystery. I am certain they had absolutely no intention of disclosing any secrets to us Brits.
Also in 1690, from an advertisement run for a week in the London Gazette:
Whereas great industry hath been used in erecting a manufacture for hollow sword blades at Newcastle [Shotley Bridge] by several able workmen brought from Germany, which now being brought to perfection, the undertakers thereof have thought fit to settle [set up] a warehouse at Mr Isaac Hadley’s, at the [sign of the] Five Bells; New Street, near Shoe Lane [in London] whereas callers can be furnished with all sorts of sword blades at reasonable prices.
Thirteen years later this appeared:
The Hollow Sword Blade company has lately received a considerable quantity of sword blades made at their mills at Shotley Bridge near Newcastle upon Tyne. They are now on sale at their warehouse in New St. near Fetter Lane.
tbc

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams urbanspaceman ~ No never been near the place. Not certain I agree with your statement on the area since most of Industrial North East England was demolished ...whereas at Shotley Bridge... which actually never had a coal mine did have the few industrial plants like the papermaking factory and the sword makers wiped off the record... largely the rest of it including the grand Victorian houses around the Spa and the quaint shop fronts and general structure of the little village centre has remained intact...and being restored I see...It looks like the river may have done for the rear end of the Mill near the bridge and the stone wheel may have been relocated by the raging waters in a great flood about 10 years ago..

A number of factors appear on the subject of that grinding wheel said to have been near the mill and a few feet from the waters edge at Shotley bridge. My recent post also mentions this and we know the concept of converting flour mills to sword mills already viz;..."The Making of Birmingham" Robert K. Dent (1894) p. 147, notes there were 'slitting and rolling' mills in several locations, including Digbeth, which was where Robert Porter had his mill. It states he converted his corn mill into a 'blade mill'. Was this also done at Shotley Bridge...?

I think what we need to place are examples of so called Shotley Bridge Swords with a possible time line to see where these weapons fit into a chronological sequence...The blade I placed with SHOTLEY clearly placed on the blade seems to be real HOWEVER THE WRITE UP SAYS CIRCA 1740 WHICH MEANS IT ISNT DATED ON THE BLADE BUT ESTIMATED ONLY..

I do not write off intrigue and skulduggery in the matter of the Jacobite situation. It may be remembered that this region was Border Reiver territory and the route to Scotland was over that bridge...It is quite possible that swords destined for the Jacobite cause could have gone through Reiver hands to Scottish beneficiaries along this route.

To date I have never seen a three edged sword stamped or said to be from Shotley Bridge.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I would like to copy in here the following~

https://oldswords.com/articles/The%20Earliest%20Scotish%20Basket%20Hilted%20Sword s-v1i4.pdf[/url]

where at notes on blades and collecting Shotley Bridge is named as a provider of basket hilts !!

Samuel Harvey needs to be observed to see where he fits into this ever revolving equation and I note he signed basket hilts seen at https://books.google.com.om/books?id=x7rcopE_SmgC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=harvey+sword+maker&source=bl&ots=J1Vmet9q0q&sig=1GF9YqGioE0gPzdQUuDkb9Hc25o&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=harvey%20sword%20maker&f=false page 36 where two cases are recorded for research although many more exist. Harveys work becomes slightly tangled with the Shotley factory and here it can be more clearly separated out...

In addition Samuel Harvey is noted with the SH ... stamp. I have also noted HAR...with VEY under in a square stamp format below.. and Harvey on various different parts of the weapon. Also below the first English cuphilt by Harvey...
The H in some weapons has been changed as you note earlier to a B in a forlorn attempt to try to show Shotley Bridge as the centre of origin..This is usually done inside the running fox...There is no such blademark as SB. Most Harvey examples shown are from his factory in Birmingham.

See Below.

1. It is clear that there is a difference between the running wolf of Solingen and the running fox with its bushy tail.
2. Often as you note the SH (Samuel Harvey) is altered to read SB ..
3. I suspect the sword with roughly applied SHOTLEY in capitals is a Solingen blade with lettering added later ... the wolf perhaps genuine. This could be an heirloom sword.
4. A probable Solingen sword appears with the talimanic 1414 Date and running wolf.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Ibrahiim. I thought it unlikely you would venture to the depths of the industrial North; and, as I said, nothing is to be learned from visiting the place (unless you want to buy the Methodist Church which I noticed is for sale £245k... just joking).
Here are some photos from my local museum and from the Royal Armouries at Leeds.
[IMG]

[urbanspaceman]

ps
Speaking of Reivers Ibrahiim: my mother's side of the family are Grahams, the most notorious of them all. We were generally over on the west side (Cumberland) unless we were stealing cattle and sheep, then we might pop over to Newcastle for the night.
It is most vexing, the lack of SB tri-form blades; all the evidence points to there being an abundance yet not a single example seems to have surfaced.
Are there many early English-made short-swords with Colichmarde or triangular blades? I've just bought a pretty mid 1800s French officer's sword made at Klingenthal, simply so I have an example of what it was all about. I would have much preferred - at least - an English example but I haven't seen anything accessible to date.
[IMG]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

What is notable so far is the absence of any Shotley Bridge hollow ground blades. Nonsense to one side about the story of mercury filled blades naturally a joke in the trade at the time... but I have also heard of the term applied to the cutting edge as hollow grinding... To some extent that may be partly true but the Hollow Ground blade or Colichemarde form is much more interesting than simply that. Colichemarde were broader toward the throat with about 12 inches of quite thick broad blade sweeping to a narrower long blade of three edges; Triangular in cross section leading to a sharp point.

If there are none from Shotley Bridge could it mean that they either produced so few by hand (Solingen it is said churned these out with a grinding machine) or that Shotley, without the machine, gave up trying to compete? ...but the net effect is I am unable to source a single Hollow Blade of this type from there..

According to Wiki Quote"The Colichemarde blade configuration is widely thought to have been an invention of Graf von Königsmark, due to the similarity in pronunciation of their names. However, the first blades of this type date from before the Count's lifetime. The colichemarde first appeared about 1680 and was popular during the next 40 years at the royal European courts. It was especially popular with the officers of the French and Indian War period. George Washington was presented with one during his inauguration.

The widespread misapprehension that the colichemarde quickly ceased to be produced after 1720 dates to the opinion given by Sir Richard Burton in his "The Book of the Sword" dating to 1884. However, many securely dated colichemarde swords from as late as the 1770s can be found in collections.

This sword appeared at about the same time as the foil. However the foil was created for practicing fencing at court, while the colichemarde was created for dueling. It made frequent appearances in the duels of New Orleans. A descendant of the colichemarde is the épée, a modern fencing weapon. "Unquote.

see Hollow-Ground or "Colichemarde" Blades at https://www.militariahub.com/the-history-of-the-manufacture-of-british-swords/

and http://swordscollection.blogspot.com/2012/03/french-silver-small-sword-xviii-th.html

See below ~Hollow Ground Colichemarde form...

[urbanspaceman]

I know I am wandering from the principle point of the thread here but, just briefly, to follow up on Ibrahiim's post (thank-you Sir) I have heard it said that the Colichemarde gave the ability to fend-off blows from the heavier blades such as rapiers and trans' rapiers due to its reinforced upper section, but that once rapiers left the duelling business then the constant gradual taper became the go-to blade for the de rigueur gentleman about town.
The French officer's sword photos I posted earlier is the style to which I refer.

[urbanspaceman]

Again, allowing the detour, I came across this statement made by Henry Wilkinson c.1850 with regard to the thrust as opposed to the cut (I have to say that surely from horse-back there is only the cut, but that aside):
"An old officer of the 11th Dragoons told me that it was proverbial through all the Peninsular War, that our Dragoons who were mostly brought into the hospital with slight punctured wounds in the chest or abdomen almost invariably died. The French Dragoons on the contrary had mostly cut or incised wounds and almost all recovered."

[Jim McDougall]

Again, allowing the detour, I came across this statement made by Henry Wilkinson c.1850 with regard to the thrust as opposed to the cut (I have to say that surely from horse-back there is only the cut, but that aside):
"An old officer of the 11th Dragoons told me that it was proverbial through all the Peninsular War, that our Dragoons who were mostly brought into the hospital with slight punctured wounds in the chest or abdomen almost invariably died. The French Dragoons on the contrary had mostly cut or incised wounds and almost all recovered."

Through the entire century the argument between cut and thrust went on, and invariably the effort was for a sword blade which could deliver both effectively. The first British regulation sword was the M1796 light cavalry sabre, which was considered most effective at cuts resulting in ghastly wounds, and which the French considered barbaric. However in any cases they were survivable, where the thrust favored by the French was virtually always fatal, and in usually a long very painful way.

The heavy, chopping blades of the M1796 were ultimately replaced by the M1821 cavalry sabre with a 'spear' point' which could be used in a thrust with the sword held in high tierce, then used in slashing cuts as well.
There were of course issues in production, design and as always blade quality, which had plagued English sword making for the previous centuries.

[Jim McDougall]

Some years ago Ibrahiim was involved in trying to learn more about the basket hilt swords which were used in the border regions between England and Scotland, where groups of what were known as "border reivers' would take varying sides in the Scottish rebellions (1689-1746).

While the Scottish basket hilt forms which had evolved in the 16th century from apparent German and North European hilts are of course well known, the remarkable spectrum of usually more austere hilts of basket form and characteristically 'English' have been the subject of much investigation and discussion.

The wonderful book "British Basket Hilted Swords" by Dr. Cyril Mazansky (2005) presents thoroughly illustrated details on the Scottish and these English forms, however is focused entirely on typology. For illustrations accompanied by intriguing and pertinent details on the historical detail of these and many other European swords, the venerable "Sword and Blades of the American Revolution" by George Neumann (1973) has never been surpassed.

The reason I bring these up is that the questions pertaining to these English swords and where they were made lent to the idea that perhaps at least numbers of them were made at Shotley Bridge. Ibrahiim had brought up the crossed basket hilts device and other factors, but it was still unresolved back then.

As though many of these basket hilt type swords date from the early years of the 18th century and through the Revolutionary War, the question has been, did Shotley possibly provide some of these swords as it seems to have been active given records noting certain smiths there into the 19th c.

It is known that despite the primary sources of English sword making in some of the 'garrison' locations such as Glasgow and Sterling, in the east Edinburgh tended more Jacobite if I recall notes, and there were smaller locations throughout who would fabricate hilts and used the usually mostly German blades. This of course was standard throughout Scotland, the Highlands, and apparently of course England.

While Birmingham blades had been touted as terrible in times earlier in the century, by mid 18th century, the quality had been improved no doubt thanks to German presence in the industry in the early 17th century with Hounslow, followed by the much clouded Shotley Bridge entity.
It is well established that numbers of these English military form basket hilts were produced by Drury and Jeffries of London, as well as the much discussed Samuel Harvey of Birmingham.

What has drawn us to Harvey has been his propensity to use the running fox in the manner of the much purloined running wolf of Passau, which was used by Solingen, and later carried forth by the German makers in England.
It appears his activity began around 1750, and many of his blades, probably earlier ones, had the 'fox' with his initials.
I think this likely was to draw to the earlier use of the running wolf on both Hounslow and later many Shotley blades and to suggest that degree of quality as opposed to the Birmingham stigma.
I would point out here that a John Dawes of Birmingham seems to have also used the fox, but instances of his blades are far less known.( fig.10a, "the British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword", A.D. Darling, 'Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting', Vo.7, #3, Jan. 1974, the example is the animal alone and suggests either Harvey or Dawes as producer, c.1750).

It has been suggested that the Hounslow makers did not use the running wolf, however in looking at the many examples in numbers of references the last few days, I have found considerable examples which did have the mark.
The running wolf of Passau began appearing on Solingen blades actually in contracts for makers of that city from a reference I have seen but have yet to retrieve.

In the advent of the English Civil Wars, Hounslow became a primary Parliamentary supplier (though several went to Oxford for the King), which was why a great many backswords, most of the 'mortuary' half basket hilt type were with German blades. Most of these have the sundry devices and markings well known in Europe and spuriously used in Solingen. One example (Neumann 250.S) has the running wolf and talismanic number 1469 (these are combinations not dates). Others of this period also have the well known ANDRIA FERARA so much associated with Solingen blades destined for Scotland. These often have the 'Genoan' sickle marks which were as widely copied as the running wolf.

Though it is clear that imported blades from Solingen were profoundly used (as recorded) and hilted in Hounslow, there were of course blades which were produced there, and some of them did bear the running wolf.




To Shotley Bridge:
The idea that there may have been some fabrication of military blades here does seem of course probable, but in what degree is unclear. We know of course that blades were being brought in for finishing, and it sounds as if hangers may well have been among them. However, there are numbers of the broadsword blades which are clearly military as in Neumann (p.146, 254.S) a semi basket hilt has a DE blade with pronounced mid ridge, and SHOTLEY BRIDG with date 1690 and WR (King William). William was of course William III of Orange and of the English crown.

It has been suggested that Shotley had supplied for both sides, and this blade so marked presents compelling suggestion that they may have.
The earlier notes regarding the numbers of Jacobite supporters in the Shotley venture presents the dilemma existing with this Dutch 'King'.
While the Dutch were Protestant and vehemently against the Catholic rule of Spain, this was directly in league with the English crown against the Jacobite cause in Scotland.
As typically German blades were typically it seems transported from Solingen via Holland, it presents interesting case.
The ship with blades for Mohll to Shotley (1703) was from Rotterdam.


To the Colichemarde:

According to Aylward, the term has not been reliably traced to any English of French literature. It is however generally held that the term is cognate interpretation alluding to John Phillip, Count von Konigsmark, a Swedish soldier who was a renowned duelist. It does appear he may have designed this anomalous blade profile in which the proto examples were of flat longitudinal section which left the upper portion wide for parry but the lower portion narrow for speed and thrust.
He was in London around 1661, which suggests that terminus post quem, but that this style went rather quickly out of fashion in civilian blades, giving way to the gradual taper of the triangular (hollow) blades. While mostly gone by first part of 18th c. with military officers, with their flair for flamboyant hubris, seem to have kept the form around, and even as late as 1780s, George Washington had one and other military use was known.

I just wanted to add results of past few days of research to continue this most fascinating topic.

[urbanspaceman]

I think the presence of the wolf/fox on Hounslow swords may be due to Benjamin Stone, a London Cutler and Freeman, who, from 1613 till 1642, was buying blades from everyone: including Solingen, Passau, Venice, Milan, Toledo and finally – of course – Hounslow; then selling the finished swords primarily to the Board of Ordnance.
For example: in June 1628 he delivered 800 swords to the Board of Ordnance: 350 Italian blades and 450 Solingen; all of these swords had basket hilts.
He finally set up his own mill in Hounslow by converting a corn mill on the New Cutt River. He then bought forged but unground blades from the local Germans, ground, polished and hilted them before putting them in his own scabbards and selling them with belts to the Tower.
He also re-fitted and re-furbished for the Board; plus, he sold finished blades to London cutlers. An enterprising chap!
Because Hounslow was then not part of London, the London Cutlers Company could not interfere: for example, he used predominantly cast brass hilts from his own foundry and this was not favoured by the London Cutlers.
By 1631 he was really cooking and delivered 4,356 swords at six shillings each - all with basket hilts – to the Tower. The numbers just kept rising after that to such a degree that in 1637 he petitioned the Privy Council not to use German imports as he could supply swords of equal quality made entirely in England.
The civil war had him re-locating to Oxford and he probably set up the king's Wolvergate mill there.
If during all that time and amongst the thousands of blades he supplied to the Board of Ordinance, there wasn't some marked Hounslow and also featuring a wolf/fox then I would be very surprised.
Information collated and published by Richard H. Bezdek; what an endeavour!
I've heard about Konigsmark Jim but also been told the Colichmarde existed prior to his birth. Where else it could have come from seems to baffle a lot of folk.

[urbanspaceman]

I've been told the crown and number 9 is an Ordnance inspector's proof mark; and that the hilt mark stands for 2nd battalion. Can anyone confirm this and possibly expand on this information. It is the hilt of what I believe to be an Oley of Shotley Bridge blade.
[IMG]

[Jim McDougall]

Looking further,

While many Parliamentary 'mortuary' type swords were certainly made in Hounslow, or at least using blades from them, other centers probably Oxford, Greenich or London probably were mounting German produced blades as well.

In 1620s, some references claim that the German makers left there to escape religious persecution. While the Thirty Years war was indeed an issue, one of the primary reasons for their departure was largely the collapse of the iron industry in Germany and their sources of supply. Actually one source claims that permits from Solingen were obtained by the British board of ordnance for them to work abroad. Actually they were already in Holland, and came from there.

From "Hounslow Hangers" by Anthony North, Spring 2004 London Park Lane Arms Fair journal.
"...although the factory at Hounslow seems to have closed in the 1670s, the blades made at Hounslow were obviously prized. They are often found on high quality English officers swords of the early 18th century. They are also found on some high quality silver hilted hunting hangers of the 1730s and 40s".

In some early narratives there are references to 'Dutch' hangers. These were actually often German ones transported to Great Britain.

In Aylward (1945, p.33), "...such SHOTLEY BRIDGE swords as are commonly seen are big, double edged weapons bearing the words Shotley Bridge in their fullers, and fitted with the Walloon hilts used by the cavalry in the Monmouth rebellion (1685) and the Marlborough campaign periods, but as the factory always claimed to specialize in HOLLOW BLADE small swords mounted with their productions might exist, though it does not seem that the tang mars which identify them are known.
It looks as though the company imported forgings from Solingen which it ground, tempered and finished at Shotley".

Many of these swords with Hounslow and Shotley blades were apparently well used in the American Revolution as illustrated in Nuemann (1973), so whether in original mounts, or just blade rehiltings, they had a long work life.

The mystery of the Shotley 'hollow' blades remains, and while begun as an enterprise to produce these fashionable gentlemans blades in 1685 it does seem likely that production of military swords was covertly intended. While the 'Hollow Sword Blade Co.' title was in place for this enterprise, it does seem that it was actually more intended to operate as a bank (against the Bank of England monopoly) and engage in real estate and trade ventures in South America and environs (South Sea trade).

The notions of religiously persecuted Germans relocating to this area to practice their faith and protect the secrecy of their craft is of course not the case. Actually some of the original German makers of Hounslow were engaged, and had of course been in England for some time as were their descendants. The notion of the iron deposits there are also questionable, as while iron there was present, it was not of the quality and nature for the processes of blade making.

The political turbulence mentioned with the Monmouth Rebellion, Jacobite Rebellions 1689-1746 and the Marlborough campaigns may well have accounted for the actual requirement for sword production of military type, rather than the civilian small sword form pretended in the original permits.

After the failure of the Hollow Sword Co. and subsequent degeneration of the sword production, it does seem that in some form, Shotley Bridge remained in some capacity, perhaps cutlery as in many other locations. The Oley family who seems to have perpetuated the Shotley tradition is another matter which needs more research.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Jim, It is certainly an interesting discussion and again your excellent pointers are very much appreciated.
The entire region in the days of the German immigrant sword makers was a hotbed of intrigue~ The whole business of the Jacobite rebellion was in ferment and it is here I wish to start. What degree of collusion was there with the sword-makers of Shotley Bridge? After Culloden many fighters from the Scottish side ran to the wilds of Durham, Northumberland and Cumberland where they formed an entirely separate although probably linked clan organisation known as The Moss Troopers who stole and robbed ...and were often caught and executed! It may be noted that Lord Derwentwater was tried and found guilty and executed for being a supporter of the Jacobite cause. Indeed such was the fervor and hatred for these brigands that the English set up a formidable military force at Newcastle and were unrelenting in tracking down sympathizers that many people caved in to government demands and openly expressed their government support. Mohll was caught with a load of swords and placed in jail only to harness important support and so he was released. It is said that there was some religious implication in pushing the Germans to elope with their sword secrets ...That would make the reasons Political and Religious ...a powerful enough combination linked to the obviously difficult situation in Solingen with the 30 year and later fighting taking place. That coupled with the intent in England to raise their game as far as sword making quality was concerned would probably suffice as to the reasons why they went.

If I may jump to the use of kilns at Shotley Bridge .. They were built certainly one at the south end of the Bridge and others further up river probably at the Forge and further up river a few miles on to Alansford . There is a even street in Shotley Bridge called Kiln Street. Somewhere I noted that materials were inported from Sweden ...ore?... for these kilns? No mines are reported in Shotley Bridge; coal or iron ore. There was plenty of wood... The swordmakers house stood in Wood Street..and Derwent meant oak valley. There was abundant Beech forest in the area. The water was excellent for tempering steel and for water wheel power. It is understood that the sandstone grit on the riverbed was ideal for sharpening and grinding blades.

In a further leap~ I question the Colichimarde situation...and the swords imported but initially confiscated when Mohl got arrested. If they were from Solingen they would surely have been stamped...My question being when was a sword stamped? There were a lot of these 1400 apparently but no definite detail of what sort of blades...nevertheless they would have been stamped I suspect...Solingen ! In all the examples seen so far ... and as far as I can see... No Colichimarde examples exist out of Shotley Bridge because they never had a machine capable of such grinding. Although this may not have been the only reason for its demise as other swords were being used...particularly in the Military ...It may have been a factor and why specialists were dispersed either back to Germany or to other English factories like Birmingham.

Post 28 sets another conundrum here... How do swords stamped with the Solingen mark of the running wolf appear with SHOTLEY BRIDGE stamped down the fullers? Are these examples of blades fetched by Mohl already with the wolf stamp or did shotley swordmakers place these ...It may mean they used both fox and wolf... but it seems odd. It is in fact the case that the hilts were often wire adorned in what is described at;

https://oldswords.com/articles/Smal...tibles-v1i1.pdf

which is a must read for this style.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here is a half basket... as I begin to examine Scottish Basket hilts and since The Crown and Crossed Swords owned by the Swordmakers sports two giant swords as their Hotel Sign under a Crown..

https://www.yorkmuseumstrust.org.uk/collections/search/item/?id=30004393&search_query=bGltaXQ9MTYmQ0wlNUIwJTVEPU1pbGl0YXJ5K 0hpc3RvcnkmRk49JTJB

Also below for library purposes sword blade marks.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:shrug: I note that Blade making in Britain had fallen off so much that in 1783 the London Cutler’s Company sought government permission to import blades duty free from the Continent and this provoked a Birmingham tool maker, Thomas Gill, to declare that he could produce British blades of equal quality. In 1786 the Honourable East India Company ordered 10,000 blades and each was to be subjected to a bending test. Of the 2,700 English-made blades 1,084 failed the test; of 1,400 German blades only 28 failed, and of Gill’s 2,650 only 4 failed. In addition to the bending test Gill had his blades struck flat, as hard as possible, on a block of cast iron and edgeways on a block of wrought iron and it is reported that some cut through the block.

--Frederick Wilkinson Swords and Daggers (p.58)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In a bid to tie Shotley Bridge to Scottish forms I need to prove more links and in doing so cite the trade link below where a Shotley Bridge sword is paired with a Scottish Scabbard. It was common practise to have the sword made at one place and the hilt and/or scabbard made at another. There is no picture.

A BRASS HILTED OFFICER'S SWORD, LATE 17TH/EARLY 18TH CENTURY with double edged blade retaining traces of a brief inscription within a short fuller and stamped with the running fox of Shotley Bridge on each side (pitted), brass hilt comprising double shell-guard engraved with the owner's name 'Sir H, Liddell Bt', knuckle-guard, an additional pair of scrolling bars joining the knuckle-guard to the shell front and back, and spherical pommel (button chipped, quilon removed), and wooden grip with later copper wire binding, in an associated brass-mounted lather scabbard, the locket inscribed 'R.S.' on the front and with the maker's name 'J. Hunter, South Bridge, Edinburgh' (worn) 80cm; 31 1/2in blade Sir Henry Liddell (before1660-1723) gained the title of 3rd Baronet Liddell and was M.P. for Durham City, 1688-98, and for Newcastle 1701-5, and 1706-10.

[Jim McDougall]

More interesting entries Ibrahiim. The one regarding Gill and the ongoing competition and difficulties between German sword production and the English makers struggling to prove their skills which had been going on for over a century or more and lasted well through the 19th. In the 1780s these tests mentioned led to him and some others to begin using phrases and terms such as warranted, or in his case 'warranted never to fail' on their blades.
This practice continued until around 1810 or slightly later with Gill, Osborne and perhaps one or two others.

I think that the iron deposits known in Shotley areas were mostly 'ironstone' and inadequate for quality needed in blade forging. The steel imported was from Sweden I understand, much as it was to Solingen. As noted, the wood required was abundant.
In most of the entries in references I have seen, it is suggested that primarily Shotley was 'finishing' forged blades from Germany, probably via Holland (the ship Mohll's cargo was on was from Rotterdam). These seem to have been heavier broadsword or backsword blades for military swords and hangers (which appear to have been already mounted from the sound of the single bundle in the shipment).

The running wolf conundrum :
It seems that the Solingen applied running wolf was typically an almost chop mark type image, often barely recognizable as a specific creature. This was in accord with the way these had been applied in Passau in earliest forms.
There was little, if any, uniformity in these images, and in Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", Prague, 1967) the chart of these 'wolf' marks depicts the variation, but misleadingly adds years, suggesting any such chronology existed. It was entirely a matter of the worker applying the mark in nominal form.
Actually, by the time of Shotley Bridge in the latter 17th century, as far as I have known, the running wolf occurring on Solingen blades would have been an anomaly. In my opinion the blades with Shotley Bridge and running animal (looking more like a dog and actually recognizable) were probably finished there, and likely 'blanks' from Solingen.

The later canine figures used by Harvey (and possibly Dawes) in Birmingham seem to be a running fox (note plumed tail) and with Harvey using his initials enclosed. It would seem these were in earlier blades and alluded to the German quality which had been known from Hounslow times and Shotley. Remember that these blades were highly esteemed and still circulating. In later Harvey blades there were various marking with his name and initials but no fox.
The fox may well have recalled Shakespeare who used the term 'fox' to describe a fine sword blade in some of his works, and for a time became a colloquial term (' thou diest at the point of fox').

It seems like there were some blades with Shotley marks which were more of the rapier form with central fuller known on some of the English cup hilts, but I have never heard of a Shotley colichemarde. But then as previously noted, it is really unclear what they actually produced aside from the examples of military backsword or broadsword blades and some hangers.

Maybe somebody out there has seen Shotley marked blades and might post here in addition to those already shown.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thanks Jim, It does seem that the formation of The Hollow Blade Company... and with it The Sword Blade Bank were subsidiary to the Sword Makers of Shotley Bridge but entirely separated by some sort of legal wizardry!... This allowed the Banking arm to operate in very murky waters indeed and with the South Seas Company (later implicated and of the South Seas Bubble fiasco) who were up to their necks in the slavery business. Many would argue that the slave trade financed in part the Industrial Revolution in the UK.. :shrug: The upshot being that the big names simply used the Swordmakers credentials in pulling in finance and other names for their own grandisement.

See https://books.google.com.om/books?id=ixHtSkjqEMcC&pg=PA313&lpg=PA313&dq=the+hollow+blade+bank&source=bl&ots=EewIkSun-6&sig=hrRdEP_Mo2yH0AS13GjHikVKsNs&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=the%20hollow%20blade%20bank&f=false

The thrust of this segment of my input suggests that the naming of the company and its association with the Shotley Bridge sword makers was irrelevant except for the prestigious linkage with certain branches of Royalty and influential business names and of no substance to do with blade production whatsoever. It therefor largely represents a degree of importance in the general smoke screen when unraveling this puzzle along with the blade in the hat story and the mercury in the hollow blade. The biggest flanneling escapade may yet turn out to be the entire story of the Hollow blade as quite unfounded and that no hollow blades of the Colichemarde form ever got made at Shotley Bridge.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

To underline my last words above see https://oldswords.com/articles/Smallswords%20-%20Overlooked%20Collectibles-v1i1.pdf

Where at page 35 the author; the reknowned E. Andrew Mowbray in Men at Arms Magazine states~

Quote" There is no evidence that hollow blades were ever produced at Shotley Bridge.'' Unquote.

[Jim McDougall]

Keith, my apologies I entirely missed your post (#36) and the illustration of the hilt with marks. Could I see the entire sword?
These 'regimental' marks on the hilt seem to have been more of a convention of the mid to latter 18th c. in England, though I am not saying such cases did not exist earlier. There was little standardization and such unit stamps were simply applied incidentally it seems.
The '2' with hyper link D and 'B' would certainly be plausible as 2nd battalion.
I am curious at how the Oley attribution to the blade is made.

By the marking crown over 9, this seems indeed an inspection mark, and these are described by Robson in his "The British Military Sword" (1975) but I do not have my copy at hand. It seems these kinds of marks were not used until the second half or latter 18th c. but again could be wrong on that.

If this is as I suspect, a mid 18th century infantry hanger (possibly the heart shape guard known as 1751 due to the Morier paintings) and dating to the Revolutionary War period, then it would be fascinating to see an Oley blade from Shotley confirmed. If Shotley was indeed producing military swords that late, I am curious why it is not included in any of the literature that are compendiums and listings of such makers over the past 60+ years.
It could be of course that old hanger blades from Shotley were remounted just as the case with numbers of blades with both Hounslow and Shotley markings, however evaluation of the sword as a whole is necessary.

Ibrahiim, thank you so much for the link to the wonderful article by Andrew Mowbray, which if not mistaken was in the first volume of "Man at Arms" magazine back in 1979. He was one of the most helpful and knowledgeable men in the arms community, and truly an inspiration to me.

I think he well surmised the Shotley situation, and there was indeed no doubt that blades were being brought in to 'salt' the works, and to appease investors anxious about the production. His description of the colichmarde matter is excellent, and well explains the purpose of the heavier forte section of the blade in dueling, which of course inherently exceeds fencing parameters in use of these unusual maneuvers. I had not thought of grabbing the blade in the manner described in the article. That the feature on a blade suddenly appeared is no more reliable a notion than its alleged limited use and sudden disappearance.
The curious blade profile with dramatic reduction in the blade to narrow foible to point is known in more ancient swords in blades known as 'carps tongue' if I recall correctly (Oakeshott, 1962, "Archaeology of Weapons").

The idea that some rather showy instances of blade production were probably emplaced in degree seems logical, but it would be unlikely to find accurate detail considering the covert and rather unconventional legal matters at hand.

Keith, it has been known that Benjamin Stone was very much the driving force in Hounslow, and though he was not a maker or craftsman, but an enterpreneuer/deal maker, he did have his own stamp or mark....a bunch of grapes. That he was getting blades from these many centers is not surprising as trade in blades was long a key industry, though he likely acquired these in lots through locations such as Holland, which like Liege, were international arms dealers.
Naturally the occurrence of various marks, names and inscriptions would be seen in almost a happenstance manner in these dynamic dealings, so to try to set rigid guidelines, axioms or classifications would be futile.

Keith, it is great to be discussing this intriguing topic with you and Ibrahiim as it seems at last I am learning more on what seemed quite baffling as I tried studying it decades ago. I hope you will keep us posted on progress on your book and looking forward to it!!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thanks Jim, In bringing on Benjamin Stone he was indeed a maverick dealer...and outlined at https://books.google.com.om/books?id=nVU0XH5W1U8C&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=BENJAMIN+STONE+SWORD+MAKER&source=bl&ots=HbK9SG58_k&sig=ndMZCwmhiEf4p2lf_2VWKWCic6E&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=BENJAMIN%20STONE%20SWORD%20MAKER&f=false is probably the real reason why the Germans were brought in to rejuvenate English sword making ability...

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Folks. As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, I am still 'on probation' so my postings must pass muster with Mr. Moderator, which means I'm appearing out of sequence.
I posted a picture of a running fox inscribed on a blade with a verifiable probity, as the vendor was from SB and knew the history of the sword i.e. an Oley blade. This style of fox is identical to the one on the blade I bought some time ago. Also, the sword that Nicholas Oley is shown holding i.e. the last blade made in SB by his grandfather (which puts it at approaching 1840) looks identical to the one sold by the ex. SB resident and also to my acquisition.
Non-the-less, in the case of my sword, it looks to me like a poor fit in the hilt, but the blade looks like it has been much used, sharpened and polished in its life, so it may indeed have been re-hilted.
I will post pictures of the verifiable sword first, then pictures of mine.
[IMG]

[urbanspaceman]

Ignore that earlier statement, I am now appearing instantly; thank-you Mr. Moderator.
Unfortunately the images I've just posted are out of stated sequence: so my sword is the one with the bone grip and the faded fox.

[urbanspaceman]

I haven't researched this issue yet, but it looks to me like the inscribing of Shotle & Bridg, or in some cases the full name Shotley Bridge, was an earlier practice restricted to Broad Swords. If Solingen imports were being passed off as SB swords then perhaps this is why they restricted indications to simply the fox/wolf.
Also, referring to an issue raised earlier , surely blade marking would have to be applied after grinding and polishing?

[urbanspaceman]

I mentioned earlier that my first encounter with the tale of the SB sword-makers was through the reading of David Richardson's book (published by Frank Graham in 1973 and long since unavailable) and I want to return to this work because he, more than anyone before or since, did so much detailed research (the hard way) that each chapter is a mine of information. There is one chapter, however, that gives light to a period much discussed but rarely substantiated. I don't know if I can link a pdf of this chapter into my post but I will attempt it; it might be too large. Failing that, I will simply paste the writings into a post. A pdf is better because it can be saved for future reference.
Incidentally, David Richardson was the grandson of Mary Oley.[IMG]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I mentioned earlier that my first encounter with the tale of the SB sword-makers was through the reading of David Richardson's book (published by Frank Graham in 1973 and long since unavailable) and I want to return to this work because he, more than anyone before or since, did so much detailed research (the hard way) that each chapter is a mine of information. There is one chapter, however, that gives light to a period much discussed but rarely substantiated. I don't know if I can link a pdf of this chapter into my post but I will attempt it; it might be too large. Failing that, I will simply paste the writings into a post. A pdf is better because it can be saved for future reference.
Incidentally, David Richardson was the grandson of Mary Oley.[IMG]

File Type: pdf Richardson chapter reduced.pdf see above #50

Salaams Keith ~A stunning revelation and a must for every member to hoist in ~ This passage is amazing. It ends with the question somewhat tantalizing but perhaps not totally answered Quote" My own opinion (that of the author) inclines to the view that no machines were set up
at Shotley Bridge and that hollow blades were nevertheless produced in
some quantity by hand. Otherwise, if machines had been set up and
hollow blades mass produced in consequence, then the fortunes would
have been made of everyone concerned." Unquote.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It occurred to me that the smuggling in and out of swords from Shotley Bridge had been going on for some time supported by the pdf just shown..These swords appeared to be moved in bulk and either abroad or more likely onto the London market...Could it be that they went to market not with Shotley Bridge markings...but with Solingen...since that is probably where they came from smuggled in...By Mohll ... It seems inconceivable that Shotley did not have a machine to hollow ground these items ~ unless they were all fully ground in Germany? Was the Shotley factory therefor(in the case of Hollow Ground Weapons) only fitting up blades with hilts and scabbards? and for the London specialist officers and gentlemens outfitter market. Was Mohll by sleight of hand and the fact that he must have had German friends and associates in London moving these blades through London markets ...as German imports? It seems to me that if there was machinery at Shotley bridge then he would not have needed to smuggle stuff half finished/threequarter finished? On the other hand I agree that if there had been a machine at Shotley to do hollow grinding why the subterfuge in smuggling in and out . And the fact that they would have made a fortune if they did have the means to opperate machinery for hollow grinding there....

So I suggest...sword blades were being imported by Shotley already hollow ground and virtually complete except for hilts and scabbards...and a polish up. Mohll was the wheeler dealer fetching in and taking out to London markets fully refurbished/ refinished Solingen Hollow Blade swords...It could also be that hilts were added by the London hilt makers plus scabbards...leaving only the refinishing of blades...to Shotley.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Jim, I have to include this...

From http://www.rapper.org.uk/archive/shotley_swords.pdf

Quote"The historic record would be incomplete without
some reference to the employment of the Oleys af-
forded to the skilled metal engravers of Newcastle,
and more especially to the great renovator of English
wood engraving, during his apprenticeship to Ralph
Beilby. Thomas Bewick was articled to Beilby on the
1st
of October, 1767. “The first jobs I was put to,” he
says, “were – blocking out the wood about the lines
on the diagrams (which my master finished) for the
‘Ladies’ diary,’ on which he was employed by Charles
Hutton (afterwards Dr. Hutton), and etching the
sword-blades for William and Nicholas Oley, sword
manufacturers, &c., at Shotley Bridge.”"Unquote.

What is interesting and has yet to be unpicked is the sword at thread blade marked W HARVEY. and since there is no W Harvey in the Harvey line up who was that?... There is however a William Harvey who was a pupil under Thomas Bewick above; engraver. Could this be the same W Harvey of Birmingham who was listed as a Sword Maker but later on in proceedings and becoming somewhat clouded in the chronology but seemingly fitting the bill as the W Harvey Birmingham Sword Maker..A sideline but interesting.

That particular piece of the jigsaw can be seen at http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Brittish-Military-Swords-18th-Century-B062_Darling1.pdf

Here is the business card of W Harvey

It states that M1751 hangers were still being used by British NCOs in the mid 19th C see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/printthread.php?t=10515

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Another potential piece of this amazing story is the Royal lineage that developed placing a German King on the English throne ... here you may note the inclusion of the collapsing South Sea Company...which you may recall was so wrapped up in the Shotley proceedings with financiers in the city, big names, Royalty and world trade including slavery. Also of interest is the potential inclusion in our story of the Jacobite situation and resupply of arms thereto...for which Mohll had landed up in Morpeth jail for a month for smuggling swords thought to be for the Jacobites for which he was found not guilty.

Note~ From http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/george_i_king.shtml

Quote"George was elector of Hanover and, from 1714, the first Hanoverian king of Great Britain.

George was born on 28 Mary 1660 in Hanover, Germany, the eldest son of the Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg. In 1682, George married his cousin Sophia and they had two children. A decade later, he divorced her for alleged infidelity and imprisoned her in a castle until her death in 1726.

In 1701, under the Act of Settlement, George's mother Sophia was nominated heiress to the English throne if the reigning monarch William III and his heir Anne died without issue. The Act sought to guarantee a Protestant succession and George's mother was the closest Protestant relative, although there were at least 50 Catholic relatives whose claims were stronger. The Electress Sophia and Anne died in quick succession and George became king in August 1714.

The following year George was faced with a rebellion by the Jacobites, supporters of the Catholic James Stuart, who had a strong claim to the throne. This was concentrated mainly in Scotland, and was suppressed by the end of the year. Another smaller rebellion in 1719 was not a serious threat.

With some Tories sympathetic to the Jacobites, George turned to the Whigs to form a government, and they were to dominate politics for the next generation. Opposition to the king gathered around George's only son, the prince of Wales, making their already poor relationship even worse.

George was active in British foreign policy in the early years of his reign. His shrewd diplomatic judgment enabled him to help forge an anti-Spanish alliance with France in 1717 - 1718.

In 1720 the South Sea Company, with heavy government, royal and aristocratic investment, collapsed. The resulting economic crisis made the king and his ministers extremely unpopular. Robert Walpole was left as the most important figure in the administration and in April 1721 was appointed first lord of the Treasury and in effect, 'prime minister'. His ascendancy coincided with the decline of the political power of the monarchy and George became less and less involved in government.

George remained unpopular in England throughout his life, partly because of his inability to speak English but also because of the perceived greed of his mistresses and rumours concerning his treatment of his wife." Unquote.

[urbanspaceman]

I have an open question here to all interested: what markings can be found on English hollowed short-swords i.e. the colichmarde variety and its successor? If I had Mr. Aylward's book I could probably answer that myself.
Referring to David Richardson's book - which I do have (I wish I could find the time to pdf it in its entirety; although I can put my hands on occasional copies, if anyone is very keen to own one I can probably acquire one for them): he states that SB only ever produced blades - never finishing the sword, as that was regarded as beneath them... they were only interested in the business end of the sword. So, if hollowed small-sword blades were coming from SB then Thomas Carnforth, the Newcastle cutler, would definitely be finishing and selling them locally, and otherwise. I need to get around the big houses hereabouts and look for family heirlooms. I think I'll try an advertisement/request for info in our local paper first.
Can I rewind a tad and refer you all to that picture of Oley holding the last sword ever made in SB - at around 1838. It is quite distinctly what is described as a hangar with a cast brass hilt. (Incidentally, that photo was taken by David Richardson who was, of course, family. Oley took the sword down from the wall to be photographed holding it.) If they never finished swords in SB, how come Oley is holding a finished one? Was it sent off to be hilted then returned to his grandfather? Did we have a cutler hereabouts in the early 1800s; something else I must check.
Mention by Ibrahiim of Thomas Bewick (our much venerated local engraver) reminds me of a Beilby engraved glass vessel that once resided in the showroom of Wilkinson Sword Ltd. and read: 'Success to the Swordmakers' on one side, and on the other were the initials of William and Ann Oley with the date 1767. How did WS get it, and where is it now?
(It is something else that keeps implying that WS themselves always believed that Mohll of SB became Mole of Birmingham, which – apparently – we now know is not the case.)
However, of more importance is the date of 1767 which doesn't suggest that the Oleys were struggling; and also to that end, we know this:
"Situated thus, says Mr. Ryan, having abundance of employment and great remuneration, the Germans, and especially the Oleys, the principal proprietors, enjoyed a long-continued tide of prosperity. Their workmen had large wages, yet their own profits were very high ; the demand for their articles was insatiable ; a journey once a year to London included the whole of their travelling expenses ; and they, there-fore, soon acquired considerable property. When Mr. William Oley died in 1808, nearly the whole of the village and the immediate adjoining fields and gardens were left to his sons."
Monthly Chronicle of North-Country Lore and Legend. Vol II, No. 15. May 1888.

[urbanspaceman]

Sorry Ibrahiim, I meant to thank you for the royal heritage information. To that end, let me add this to the mix, as it presents a very good picture of just how enormous the demand must have been for good blades:
The British Army 1685–1840 conflicts and wars:
Jacobite Rebellions 1689–91; 1715–16; 1719; 1745–46
Williamite War in Ireland 1688–91
Battle of the Boyne 1690
War of the Spanish Succession 1701–1714
War of the Austrian Succession 1740
Carnatic Wars 1744– 1763
Seven Years' War 1754–1763
Anglo-Mysore Wars 1766– 1799
First Anglo-Maratha War 1775–1782
American Revolutionary War 1775–1783
French Revolutionary Wars 1792–1802
Second Anglo-Maratha War 1802–1805
Napoleonic Wars 1802–1813
Hundred Days 1815 The return of Napoleon
Anglo-Nepalese War 1813–1816
Third Anglo-Maratha War 1817–1818
First Ashanti War 1823–1831
First Anglo-Burmese War 1824–1826
First Anglo-Afghan War 1839–1842
First Opium War 1839–1842
First Anglo Marri War 1840

[urbanspaceman]

OK, I set-to and scanned in the entire David Richardson book. I figured that considering how much effort he put into researching and writing it, and considering it will never see the light of day again, as both he and his publisher (Frank Graham) are - like the book - long gone, it behoved me to spend an hour and scan it in, considering I had already done one chapter anyway. So here it is; the introduction tells it all.[IMG]

[urbanspaceman]

Here is the other local history book about the Shotley Bridge sword-makers, assuming I can link it. I've just tried to upload it and it's too large so I will split it into four sections.
John brought things up to date by drawing on info discovered following David Richardson's book, which he also draws on extensively.
This book is not only long out of print but cannot even be found in second-hand bookshops; plus the local library copies have all been stolen bar one kept in the archives but which has been scanned and re-printed (rather poorly unfortunately) and is available to lend providing you agree to pay c.£150.00 if you don't return it (even this photocopy is this valuable!).
As with Mr Richardson's book, I am equally certain John will be pleased to see his excellent endeavour disseminated amongst the cognoscenti et al
Here is section one.[IMG]

[urbanspaceman]

Here's part 2:

[urbanspaceman]

and part 3

[urbanspaceman]

And finally part 4.
As I mentioned earlier, this is a photocopy of the last remaining copy of the book in the public library service here on Tyneside, so although the scanning is poor in places it is still a valuable document regarding the Shotley Bridge sword-makers.
The remaining work on the subject is by Richard H. Bezdek called Swords and Sword Makers of England and Scotland and this is in current production including a perfect pdf download for a very reasonable price.[IMG]

[urbanspaceman]

J. Hunter, South Bridge, Edinburgh[/B]' (worn) 80cm; 31 1/2in blade Sir Henry Liddell (before1660-1723) gained the title of 3rd Baronet Liddell and was M.P. for Durham City, 1688-98, and for Newcastle 1701-5, and 1706-10.

Hello Ibrahiim.
I had a look in Bezdek's book and I found four J. Hunters operating in Scotland. It looks like the scabbard was made between 1560 and 1580 then was re-used. We could probably find out what RS stood-for if we cared-to but there is no-one amongst his ancestors.
I gather there was no maker's mark on the hilt. It may have been an old hilt with his title added or he may have had a new one made. I can't say 'for his new blade' because this man never did any fighting (other than in Parliament) so the wear of the blade was not down to him or any of his descendants; one of whom was father to Alice of Wonderland fame. It was obviously all old when he acquired it - apart from his title on the hilt - and may have been assembled by various folk over the years.

Sword slipper James Hunter 1538–1548 Perth

Cutler James Hunter 1780–1810 Edinburgh
Sword slipper • Made midshipmen’s dirks and cold stream guard officers swords.

Armourer James Hunter 1560–D1580 Edinburgh
Sword maker • Master Armourer, 1570.
• When he died, he had 62 swords and 125 blades in stock.

Armourer James Hunter 1598–1608 Dundee
Sword maker • Son of David Hunter.

[urbanspaceman]

Of course, the brief (and faded) inscription may not be Shotley Bridge and the fox could have been from anywhere in the past - including Hounslow - if he bought it in London, or Solingen then hilted in Scotland in the 1500s; so the sword and hilt and scabbard may well have been contiguous.

[urbanspaceman]

I took this last week when I was out at Shotley Bridge.[IMG]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank you for the excellent additions to library ... I am on page 50 of your first copy and how interesting it is... There are many interesting features which I need to compile ..

As a matter of interest the sign on the Crown and Crossed Swords is a relatively new one ... Apparently the old one was removed in about 1965 and this new one was the replacement and quite different to the original. The previous sign being more the crossed sword form, flatter and of the basket type... :shrug:

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Ibrahiim. Yes, that is how I always think of the sign, so I must be recollecting old images of the village; can't say I'm much impressed with the replacement. I was in the adjoining bar, which is dreary and forlorn, (a typical old English village pub) and the barmaid mentioned guests, but I have to confess the hotel did not look like it was doing business; the main front door hasn't been opened in some considerable time, and the insides of the big windows were dirty. There's plenty of money thereabouts, so it could do well as a typical rural gastro-pub with the right chef and manager, but that's not the way it is at present. Sad.
However, I am certain Mr. Richardson and Mr. Bygate would be happy to know their work lives on in the right circles. Actually, I must check to find out if Bygate is still alive - he may not be dead, as it was only 17 years ago when that book was published and he was not that old then.[IMG]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I think that was the adjoining place and is mentioned in a document I saw about architecture in the village as being quite different in construction to the original Crown and Crossed Swords which was to the right. That could make that The Commercial Public House ...Possibly now absorbed... I think the Menu Sign to the right of the door has the original style of Crown and Crossed Swords on it?

It will take me a while to absorb the brilliant pdf work you have added and I have to say what an important set of documents these all are. :shrug: Thank you.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:shrug: I POSTED THIS AND IT IS A NOTE AT #62

A BRASS HILTED OFFICER'S SWORD, LATE 17TH/EARLY 18TH CENTURY with double edged blade retaining traces of a brief inscription within a short fuller and stamped with the running fox of Shotley Bridge on each side (pitted), brass hilt comprising double shell-guard engraved with the owner's name 'Sir H, Liddell Bt', knuckle-guard, an additional pair of scrolling bars joining the knuckle-guard to the shell front and back, and spherical pommel (button chipped, quilon removed), and wooden grip with later copper wire binding, in an associated brass-mounted lather scabbard, the locket inscribed 'R.S.' on the front and with the maker's name



As is commonly mixed up with the fox/wolf;...This description comes with no picture of the weapon thus it is suspect as being confused between the two animals. I think the weapon is stamped with the Passau Wolf NOT the fox. Clearly the wolf or running wolf which has several all stick like images of wolves was the Passau wolf famous on Solingen blades but reproduced in other schools of sword making excellence as a blade of quality mark. It is very different in structure to the running fox.

As will be seen ... The Running Fox was never done by Shotley Bridge...whereas the Passau wolf was... After all many of the sword smiths there were originally from Solingen. It remains to be seen if Shotley was importing a load of blades regularly from Solingen if the Passau wolf marks were all done at Shotley Bridge or already on the blades when they arrived ...or both! If Shotley was not stamping the Fox who was? It would appear that Samuel Harvey is in the frame at Birmingham...anyone else?
:shrug:

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Ibrahiim. The image on the sword sold in auction last year (see post #25 of this thread) with first-person confirmation of probity i.e. an Oley blade from SB, is definitely a Samuel Harvey like fox not a Passau/Solingen/early SB wolf. I am waiting to hear from the auctioneer as to whether the vendor (an ex SB resident) will commune with me.
here's the other half, and the original half, of the pub.[IMG]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Then it is not a Shotley product. It is however a Birmingham one. It is a Samuel Harvey. Nice picture by the way... Thanks.
The stick like construction of the Passau Wolf mark was a favourite of Solingen and often used by other sword schools of manufacture to signify a quality blade much in the same way that Andrea Ferrera was struck on blades throughout history. Swords emanating from Shotley Bridge often sported this mark...but never the bushy tailed Fox.

[Jim McDougall]

This discussion is going great! and Keith, you have brought up some very good questions on some of the blades which may well have comprised some colichemarde blades as these were often of three edge section. While the blades termed 'colichemarde' had a wide forte and to considerable length near center....the foible was dramatically narrow for speed and thrust.

You asked what marks etc. were to be found on these types of blades, which is indeed important to see if perhaps any were produced at Shotley Bridge.
As has been noted, this type of blade, much favored by duelists, seems to have appeared sometime around third quarter of the 17th c. and given way to the typical three edge (hollow ground) blades for small swords around 1720s, but in the civilian sector.
Military officers continued their favor of these, most of which seem to have produced on the Continent, and have decoration and engraving by various outfitters and furbishers. Often these were jewelers and goldsmiths, as was typically the case with most small swords.

It would be interesting to see if any small sword blades, regardless if colichemarde or other types of blade bore any mark or inscription to Shotley Bridge. As I have mentioned, the Hounslow enterprise seems well represented in many of the reference sources, however in those listing examples, only few have Shotley blades shown. Of those seen, I have not seen any small sword or colichemarde to Shotley mentioned or shown.
It would seem that they should be as a list of Shotley makers from Hoppe (Hooper) and the Oleys through the 18th c. to 1808 is listed in Aylwards
"The Small Sword in England".
Yet, in illustrations and text, no example is shown or described, despite the Oley's noted as proprietors and 'bladesmiths'.

If this was they case, why is no blade marked to any Oley?


To the WOLF/FOX:

In the considerable research I have done on these markings, which concur with Ibrahiim's notes here, I have found that the conundrum of these curious images cannot be conclusively asserted. What does seem clear is that the 'running wolf' (called the Passau wolf for its believed origin) was used in Solingen by the 16th century. These often incredibly stylized (sometimes indiscernible) 'animals' were placed on a single side of the blade and typically chop type marks filled with brass or copper.

These were not standard by any means, as they were placed by workers of varying degree of skill (certainly not artistic) and often resemble the prehistoric cave type figures almost. Thus they could never be assigned to a particular maker, nor even period or any sort of chronology (as Wagner's chart implies). They were simply and arbitrarily placed on a blade as a kind of imbuement of quality.

As the Hounslow operations ensued in the early years of the 17th century, the Solingen makers who went to England undoubtedly used these simple marks, and in the almost stick figure manner a tradition in Germany . Meanwhile many blades there were imported from Germany and fitted to the developing hilts of Hounslow form.
The reputation of the Hounslow blades was well known, and while the operations ceased by 1650s it seems, the blades continued to have long working lives as heirlooms and rehiltings, even well into the 18th c.

With the advent of the Hollow Blade Co and Shotley Bridge in 1685, it seems some of the Hounslow families were involved. Though there is a great degree of doubt on the production of 'hollow blades', there were a number of military type blades and hunting sword or hangers it seems. Some of these indeed have the German wolf (no doubt brought forth by the German members) of the stick type image with Shotley Bridg inscribed.

As noted, no Shotley Bridge blade as far as known ever used the 'fox'.

The Shotley Bridge entity is said to have continued after the collapse of the very dark Hollow Sword Co. but no swords marked with the wolf or Shotley Bridge markings are known beyond the first years of the 18th c.

The wolf as a blade marking had been long gone from Passau, but at this point it seems to be gone from Solingen as well.

By the 1750s, Birmingham was determined to redeem its value as a blade and sword producer, and the maker Samuel Harvey began to use the canine figure once again, certainly recalling the now fabled 'running wolf' character but now with a British twist ....it was a quite discernible running fox with its distinctive plumed tail. He placed his initials SH within.
It was noted however that on occasion, the fox did not have initials (though some had only an H). It now seems that at least one other Birmingham may have used the fox, but no initials.

In a short time, it seems these 'foxes' ceased, and only Harvey's name appeared on the blade in various configurations.

[urbanspaceman]

To simplify matters in my postings, I want to refer to the tri-form blades - be they colichmarde or otherwise - as history has done and call them Hollow Blades; which, unfortunately, is a poor term, as a hollow in a blade can mean a fuller or simply mean a hollow ground edge re. sharpening techniques; but nevertheless...
So my question is this: of the English hollow blade short-swords in existence today, do they feature any blade markings? If so, can anyone tell me what those markings are?
Coming back to Shotley: I've been considering the issue of a three-wheel grinding machine, inasmuch as I cannot find any evidence that they brought one with them; the declaration cited in the Charter by Sir Stephen Evance only states that they used such a machine in Solingen - not that they brought one with them. However, let's be realistic here: even if they didn't bring one with them, and it seems reasonable to suppose such an enterprise was impractical, they would certainly not be at a loss to manufacture one in Shotley Bridge once they got settled. So, the top and bottom of it all is that they could have produced innumerable hollow blade short-swords, if that was what was demanded.
But! The three original smiths who arrived in SB in 1685 had to be supplemented by an additional nineteen families two years later; so if the first three had no experience of the specialist grinding machine - which is not unlikely, considering they had been in England since the Hounslow days - then the new arrivals certainly did. Yet bringing nineteen families and no grinding machine indicates that the original enterprise of producing hollow blade short-swords was abandoned almost immediately as a result of the inevitable enormous demand for military blades.
Having established a company and acquired Crown approval the Company changed hands rather quickly, and two members were removed and new names introduced: such as Sir Stephen Evance; this was the transition from producing Hollow Blades as a primary enterprise to the beginnings of the dubious business practices thereafter.
At the SB end, I think that being exclusively able to supply hollow blade swords might have been of some prestige, but there is no way that it could compare fiscally with arming thousands and thousands of soldiers. Although, according to the Cotesworth documents, they were being screwed for every penny, to the extent they couldn't pay their bills; mind-you, that is a common enough excuse amongst workers throughout history, and considering Oley's wealth later on, at worst purely temporary.
This is why I am interested to learn what markings were on the hollow blade short-swords here in England at the turn of the century, is it not almost certain that they came from Germany. (When did they begin producing them in Klingenthal? It must have been decades earlier. Did we not import from there?) The statement made to the courts when Mohll was on trial was that the blades found in the river were of a type only produced in Shotley Bridge. Who says? How did they know? Why were the blades not Solingen products? After-all, the ship was coming from Rotterdam. Was that purely to evade a smuggling charge? Very grey area!
The more you delve into this business, the murkier it becomes, unless the obvious is not that obvious after-all.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The more you delve into this business, the murkier it becomes, unless the obvious is not that obvious after-all.

Salaams Kieth,
Do you realize you used a very interesting phrase above...Delve ! This is old German...to dig!! and I believe the German miners who came to England at the time were the ones initially digging at one site...They must have named it after the German word. In Delves Lane. About 5 miles from Shotley Bridge.. at Consett the nearest town.

From one of your pdfs~
Of course, the steel had to be of the highest quality, and certainly the swordsmiths would try to ensure this, by overseeing the various processes rigorously. In the beginning the Germans seem personally to have sought out and extracted the ore from sites along the Derwent and in
the surrounding countryside. One area where they almost certainly dug (or delved) was later known as the Delfts; later still this gave rise to the name of the road leading to the site (now part of Consett) - Delves Lane, at that time of course open land. Local lore also said there was a seam near Hownes Gill, known as the German Bands Seam, worked by the Oleys.ll.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Ibrahiim. I do stuff like that all the time, then wait for someone to pick up on it; and no-one ever does (till today!).
I've realised most folk don't read and digest anymore; I think it has something to do with writing becoming the major form of communication, instead of vocally conversing.
Now that my seem oxymoronic, but texting and emailing reduces the majority of writing to bare-bones and abbreviations.
It never fails to amaze and irritate me that, despite planning my missives carefully, and proof reading at least twice, people often don't get the message.
At first I thought it was my poor communication skills - till I realised the truth: 'haste!'
Often, when someone is faced with a screen-full of words, they speed-read and assume; which means that half the time, much of importance gets missed.
However, it does not surprise me that folks on this forum read and ruminate.
Delightfully, both you and Jim regard brevity as unnecessary... me too.
We are all on a permanent learning curve here; otherwise, what's the point?
Thank-you.

[urbanspaceman]

From the Royal Armouries in Leeds[IMG]

[urbanspaceman]

Note the orientation of the image on the blade.

[urbanspaceman]

[IMG]
One of the above is definitely number 11 but minus the crown, and that's a variation on the wolf right? Not a fox.
I'm suspicious of the Hunting Hanger as it doesn't say Shotley or Bridge, and the animal looks more like a lion; I wonder if the RA have got it wrong and it's not an SB blade?

[Jim McDougall]

Keith, that is excellent....the orientation of the fox in the second image, which surprisingly a 'fox' NOT the running wolf of German character. If this can indeed be proven SHOTLEY, then this would dispel the idea that the fox simile of Birmingham never occurred there.
The other Shotley blades are clearly marked to that place along with the German running wolf.

This hanger with running fox is curiously similar to the Birmingham use of that image, which as I described earlier, in my opinion was quite plausibly a keenly placed simile of the British fox used in the manner of the famed running wolf of Germany.

As I mentioned, in Shakespeare, one instance ( Henry V, Act IV, scene 4; "..thou diest on point of fox". The term was used to describe a well made sword, of course probably Solingen blade rapier.

With Birmingham struggling to regain their market share against the long emplaced German domination, it would seem remarkably clever to use the fox in place of the highly esteemed German running wolf, and in its character.

I came across another case of these markings, surprisingly in an American hanger c. 1755-83, in Neumann p.88, 81.S ("Swords and Blades of the American Revolution", 1973). The blade seems clearly of the German form which also became produced in Birmingham c. 1755. It must be remembered of course that America was at this time a British colony, and though the blade is described as German made......it has the running wolf..but on both sides of blade, and with a star.

Germany, as I mentioned, was not as far as I know using the running wolf this late. Further, it was not on both sides of the blade, only on one, and typically latten (brass) filled.

This example has the same fuller as the Birmingham blades, but has been shortened to about 20" from the usual 27". Obviously it has been rehilted with brass guard and antler hilt in British manner.

While I cannot see the mark, whether fox or wolf, the dual application is atypical, as is the star of some type.

We have seen that makers in Birmingham intended to capitalize on the German use of the wolf, and while Harvey's fox is well known, it seems almost certain that other makers may have used variations of either wolf or fox.
That may account for the blade on Keith's sword, which has the canine figure on both sides, however degenerated or poorly applied on one. Also that use of a star MAY have been applied in tandem with the wolf on some blades made by some yet undiscovered maker there.

[urbanspaceman]

Just to wander off Piste again: is this an indication of a re-hilt?
[IMG]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

From the Royal Armouries in Leeds[IMG]

The Fox ...ie Bushy Tail... is not a Shotley stamp...Birmingham. The twig constructed wolf is Solingen and also done by Shotley. (hardly surprising since the sword makers, were as we know, mainly from there) The chart shows several different styles of twig constructed Wolf but none can be relied upon to date swords ...as every school was capable of knocking up a simply designed stamp like those...One Mallet and a chisel!

As noted by Jim the mentions of Fox by William Shakespeare must have been reference to the Solingen mark since he died in 1616...well before the Birmingham Samuel Harvey worked at Sword making in Birmingham 1748 til 1778.

[Jim McDougall]

I have always wondered on the Passau/later Solingen wolf, which seems to have its origins in Passau quite early in around 14th century I believe, need to recheck that history. But the point is, these chop marked images are notoriously individual, invariably as a matter of fact.

They were clearly not makers marks or stamps, but suggestions are of course that they were originally some sort of guild mark. Yet they seem to be almost regularly applied, but using chisel, not stamped.

I recall once trying to find any blade which could be proven to the same maker or shop with matching wolf marks. I don't think there ever were, but once there might have been....still need to retrace notes.

The chart showing variations with years is from Wagner, "Cut & Thrust Weapons", Prague, 1967. Eduard Wagner was a museum curator, and appears to have compiled these examples from sword blades he had seen or catalogued, but that is just my presumption. There has never been any sort of pattern or consistency to any of these, so chronological development, as implied in the chart, is completely implausible.

It is almost as if the chiseling of the 'wolf' was an imbuement, and its artistic value irrelevant, but temporally observed as perhaps talismanic as much as indicative of quality. Possibly the worker who emplaced the mark felt a certain individual embellishment as a kind of personal touch.
We have seen this in many well known markings, which sometimes have deviations or nuances which might signify different family member or workshop or possibly even a heraldic kind of placement. We can only speculate as we search records, public listings and genealogical data, and evaluate examples on weapons as they are discovered.

I think the Harvey use of the fox was brilliant, and well placed in the history of this canine marking phenomenon, and the lore of swords and blades.


Still working on the problem of the Shotley blades. It seems that the Hollow Sword Blade Co. was of course a front to syndicate a bank for some very dubious ventures. The Bank of England held the monopoly on banking, so the idea of setting up sword making in these regions was somewhat under those auspices. With the advent of the political struggles that were then developing, one cannot help thinking that a supply source was intended with Jacobite leanings.

As far as finding small sword blades which are English, there are surely references which do list makers, but most attention seems given to the hilt makers which were often jewelers, goldsmiths and various outfitters.
What is most significant on the listings of Shotley in Aylward is that it refers to 'sword cutlers', and of these, the Mohl's were listed as GRINDERS and proprietors, and the Oley's listed as BLADESMITHS and proprietors.

It seems that the idea of bringing in forged and incomplete blades was indeed taking place, as we see from Mohl and his captured shipment from Rotterdam. Holland was a point of departure for blades from Solingen as the Netherlands were key international arms dealings. Many German smiths from Solingen, so the blades may well have been made there. There are profound similarities in the character of Dutch and English swords of this era.

We need to check "European Court and Hunting Swords" Bashford Dean, 1929, as it has thorough listings of many swords which perhaps might have some clues toward the blades. I don't have copy at hand unfortunately.
Auction sales catalogs such as Bonhams, Christies and others are goldmines of such detail as well.

As noted, we are not noted for brevity here, but sharing as much data as possible presents opportunity for solid thinking in solving these age old mysteries.

[urbanspaceman]

I've contacted the Blades Curator at the Royal Armouries in Leeds to enquire into the provenance of that hunting hanger with the curious fox stamp (post 75). It's listed as Shotley Bridge and I would be fairly surprised if they have got it wrong, but it's not beyond the bounds of possibilities. Just waiting to hear back from him. It's such a singular image that it may well be a one-off created for the occasion. Waiting patiently.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Kieth, The trouble with this animal is that it does not resemble a stick drawn wolf nor does it look like a fox... I wonder if it is a copy of the running fox mark done by who knows? We wait to see. :shrug:

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Ibrahiim. Yes, indeed, my thought exactly. The first thing to confirm is that it is a Shotley blade; assuming it is, then our imaginations can run amok, because - unless there is a known history - it could amount to anything. Someone went to some trouble to engrave that image though; it's not your Neanderthal stick drawing is it?
I am also looking into other marks used by the SB smiths because I can't imagine that if they were turning out the numbers of blades thus far indicated for the military, that they would be bothered chiselling Shotle Bridg et al on every blade when a tang stamp would suffice.
I'm also beginning to wonder if they ever used the Passau wolf/fox at all, or if the unfinished blades came out of Solingen already marked. How much work is done on an unfinished blade? Would it remove the marking?
There's still so much shrouded in mystery; clearly, SB sword owners are not reading this forum.

[Jim McDougall]

Keith , I'm glad you are contacting the RA as I would really like to hear their explanation on this one. I think you're right, there is no way they could have put out significant volume of blades and stamping or engraving all of them.
As it is, it seems only a select number of blades were so marked, and as you point out, could they have been already forged and stamped in Solingen prior to export?

In the top sword in #75, this is a Walloon type sword as thought to have been from Shotley Bridge in latter years of 17th c.
The 'wolf' seems in the proper orientation in the blade center, and the somewhat irregularly stamped letters for Shotley Bridg placed as they arrived in Newcastle. It seems that the running wolf in Solingen was always upside down, and typically in latten (brass filled) .

The second sword looks to be a hanger of mid 18th c. which of course aligns with the Birmingham works and Samuel Harvey's use of the fox. While this rendering looks atypical to the other known examples of Harvey's, it is known Dawes (perhaps others) might have also applied fox marks.

If this example could be irrefutably provenanced to Shotley Bridge it would be monumental as in my view, the fox was used by Birmingham to in effect mimic the German running wolf, in the 1750s. So why would German smiths in Shotley use a fox on a hanger blade? and when they were presumably fashioning blades for small swords? In fact, it is a puzzle why the only reference found to Shotley sword cutlers is in Aylward (1945) in the list he shows which transcends 18th c. to 1808, with about 10 names.
Possibly more will be found in Southwick, or Annis & May, both volumes listing sword makers, but cant get to my copies for a month.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Jim and Keith, Slightly to one side ...That odd grindstone that I was tod was leaning against a wall on the river...I never found it. but...have a look at these .... what are they....? They are from the Shotley Mill shown. look at the striatians in the stone grinder faces....

[kronckew]

Salaams Jim and Keith, Slightly to one side ...That odd grindstone that I was tod was leaning against a wall on the river...I never found it. but...have a look at these .... what are they....? They are from the Shotley Mill shown. look at the striatians in the stone grinder faces....

they are millstones for grain, the striations are grooves to allow the milled flour to work it's way out and fall down into a large funnel and then into the flour sacks underneath. the cylindrical wooden structures surround the stone and have an opening for adding the grain into the centre of the upper millstone which is adjusted in distance from the lower one depending on how fine the miller wants the flour. bit like a huge coffee grinder. the stones would wear and require regrooving , the propped up ones were likely spares. after they are too thin to reuse, they get sold to architectural salvage junkyards who resell them to trendy yuppies for inclusion as features in their homes and/or gardens.

see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC-wzAML-oY

and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBEagbZxc6Y

solingen knife/sword makers used a vertically mounted stone. no occupational health and safety laws back then:

[Jim McDougall]

Hey Wayne! thank you for joining us here on this, and especially for the great insight on these huge wheels. In many of the references I have checked, the mills were converted from grist mills for corn and perhaps others.
Could these same wheels be used for the functions required in metal work, or are the surfaces changed in some way?

This might explain the accessibility of wheels for the makers.

[kronckew]

Hey Wayne! thank you for joining us here on this, and especially for the great insight on these huge wheels. In many of the references I have checked, the mills were converted from grist mills for corn and perhaps others.
Could these same wheels be used for the functions required in metal work, or are the surfaces changed in some way?

This might explain the accessibility of wheels for the makers.
see my updates above. much different stones driven at higher rotational speeds... the water driven mill wheel of course could be a power source for a variety of blacksmiting tools, grinders, drop hammers, bellows, etc. lots of open belting and gearing to grab the unwary.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank you for the excellent detail in your reply... I was just looking at a French sword factory and the English Reeves factory and realised the same ... The grindstone outside next to the river I was told about must have been a grain grinder and was adjacent the grain mills. I place a more ancient water wheel driven wheel arrangement for interest. Many thanks. :shrug:

[urbanspaceman]

once started, how do you cancel and clear a post: I can't find a button to push.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Research into the Kilns on the Derwent further up stream at Allensford..Both 17th C . The rock with a hole is a blast furnace... About 6 miles from Shotley Bridge. :shrug:

[urbanspaceman]

Isn't that Bertram's place?

[urbanspaceman]

During my research into the SB Swordmakers, I inevitably came across talk of the iron and steel industry in the Derwent Valley, ultimately culminating in, first Sir Ambrose Crowley's works, then, of course, the Consett Steel Works. Because it is all so linked in with the Swordmakers I have been researching both.
Ibrahiim's post about the blast-furnace at Allensford, which I immediately assumed was Bertram's place, turns out to be one of Denis Hayford's operations leased from and run by Bertram.
The actual presence of Hayford, not only in the valley, but according to just uncovered references, in SB itself, has set a cat among the pigeons, because I was not aware, and neither was anyone else it seems, that he was actually part of the industry in the village: (Denis Hayford, (c.1635–1733), a pioneer of the steel industry, acquired the lease of Allensford furnace and forge in 1692 which was upstream from his established business in Shotley Bridge. The lease seems to have lapsed in 1713. (Wikipedia).
It was indicated in letters from Mohll to Cotesworth that he was attempting to squeeze ownership of the Hollow Blade Company (or, at least its interest in the SB Swordmakers) away from the London directors and into his hands by putting the bladesmiths into debt over their purchase of his steel. Below, is from Richardson's book regarding letters from Mohll to Cotesworth:
Although remaining aloof from writing anything but business letters for years, in 1715- 24th May, when the works were at a low ebb he almost begs Cotesworth's permission for "we grinders to ground Mr. Hayford's blades made by our smith here .... that is when we have not full employ". He then offers to make an allowance for the use of the mill (the grinding mill), which shows that the Chartered Company could never be approached except through Cotesworth.
Two weeks later Hermann Mohll showed by an almost despairing letter that Den (or Dan) Hayford had cast conspiring glances at the Shotley works and tried to buy or rent them.
Mohll's letter runs- "Sir, I hope you understand that Mr. Hayford is for the Company Works here"-and Mohll describes how his (Hayford) engineers measured all housing, shops and mills, taking water levels and "every thing he cut gite (get), and that if he (Cotesworth) had a kindness for the works here or for me to stop him and hold the old 'husie' back for we will all make blaides for rent and pay the rent every month. Some say he is for buying the works as they say the Company will bestow no more money here . ... "
As can be seen by the letter, Mohll grows more vehement as he proceeds and now calls Hayford 'a sliye youth', threatening to buy not one iron or steel from him.
He concludes by praying for, "a line by bearer whether I have hopes to prevent his aims" then concludes, "Your obedient servant to command, Hermann Mohll".
To me, this is an historic letter for it seems to have frustrated Den Hayford's attempts to take over the works.
So, either some vital information was available to the Wikipedia writer (ref. Oxford Dictionary of National Biography) or my understanding that Den Hayward only operated outside of the area (principally in Sheffield) is wrong.
Once you start investigating the iron industry you enter an entirely new world; however, it was always my intention to show where the SB swordmakers fitted in the industrial development of the Derwent Valley but that is not an endeavour that concerns us here.
One thing is finally revealed however: an enigma that has plagued all the researchers into the SB industry, and that is the identity of Bertram: From the 1690s onwards, one of Hayford’s furnaces was operated by William Bertram, also a German, from Remscheid. Now that just leaves Vinting to discover, but I am fairly certain his ancestors came over to develop lead mining at Ryton; we'll see.

[urbanspaceman]

Bertram's quality marks: [IMG]

[urbanspaceman]

It makes me wonder if perhaps the stars found associated with the Passau Wolf markings are connected?

[urbanspaceman]

What the above now establishes, beyond all speculation, is why the Germans chose Shotley Bridge: it was because of Bertram.
It is also very likely that Bertram was there because of Vinting, whose ancestors (at least one earlier generation anyway) were already there.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

You lost me there Kieth...I remembered reading something about Bertram and him not being traced or something ...to a German origin...(from your pdf details) but your explanation is amazing I have to say... I had been told or read somewhere that there were furnace remains up near Allensford similar I presume to the ones at the Bridge in Shotley.

The grindstone I was told about seems to be just that...for grinding grain...which is why it may well have been seen near the river at the Bridge next to the Grain Mill..(The grain mill which was part of the Swordmakers company set up) That may still be there amongst the trees or some museum...Newcastle or Beamish ...took it away...Anyway its not important now.

It is rather like reading a play by Shakespeare and discovering an entirely missing character but suddenly finding his entire script in another play wrongly applied in that scenario.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

However...Bertram wasn't at Allensford or at least if he was, he was also at Blackhall Mill which is down river from Shotley Bridge; not up apparently... and for which he was famous :shrug:

I found this~ at https://studylib.net/doc/8013653/the-essays-concerning-iron-and-steel-published-in-1773

Quote" The Swedish traveller Reinhold Angerstein, who visited Mather’s workshop in 1754, noted that he made ‘all kinds of steel hardware required for a watchmaker’s shop’, specialising in ‘a kind of grooved steel wire for pinions in small pocket watches’. The ‘raw material for the pinion wire’ at the time was ‘Mr Bertram’s Double Shear Steel’ from the North East, not crucible steel. Torsten Berg and Peter Berg (eds), R.R. Angerstein’s illustrated travel diary, 1753-1755: industry in England and Wales from a Swedish perspective(London, 2001), pp. 313-14. William Bertram operated at Blackhall Mill in the Derwent valley, the historic centre for the manufacture of shear steel."Unquote.

I have noted Angerstein before ... Wasn't he at Shotley Bridge for a meeting?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

and~

History
In the early eighteenth century, Blackhall Mill changed from a mainly rural estate to a steel making village.

The Bertram family operated a steel forge from the early 1700s. It was visited in 1719 and 1754 by Swedish engineers. Both Kalmeter in 1719 and Angerstein in 1754 visited the papermill which was operated by the same millrace as the forge. Angerstein, on his visit in 1754 was studying new methods of industrial technology. At that time, conversion of iron into steel took eighteen days, with most of the time taken by cooling. Profit was sixteen per cent. There is reference to a smelt mill at Blackhall Mill in an indenture of 1773, and Mr. William Bertram of Ryton parish was owner or part owner of the sword factory at Blackhall Mill at the same period. The Blackhall Mill steel forge (later the site of the council school) used power from a dam across the Derwent near Beechgrove Terrace.

Angersteins journey can be traced at https://books.google.com.om/books?id=YK_siPOmoVAC&pg=PR7&lpg=PR7&dq=angersein+at+shotley+bridge&source=bl&ots=XUxHEUWhJN&sig=DgTbhq5NNnKgeyM3RGIR_OrwEhY&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=angersein%20at%20shotley%20bridge&f=false which indicates almost every forge and mill in the line of travel and a map can be seen... He indeed visited Shotley Bridge.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Dan Heyford was from Roamley near Pontefract and he supplied Shotley Bridge with steel...according to https://books.google.com.om/books?id=XVP-AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA302&lpg=PA302&dq=Hayford+shotley+bridge+sword+makers&source=bl&ots=VF50HyrebT&sig=y1JTSYece6iYaUMcAybyzd_dlQQ&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false on page 302.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Further~ From http://twsitelines.info/SMR/1017

Quote"Wilhelm Bertram, a steelmaker from Remscheid in Germany, was shipwrecked off the north Durham coast in 1693. A few years later he was said to be in charge of a furnace in Newcastle. By 1720 Bertram had transferred to Blackhall Mill, acting as steelmaker for the furnace owned by Hayford. The Hollow Sword Blade Company, which was originally set up near Shotley Bridge in about 1686 by German immigrants, was apparently being supplied with cementation steel by Hayford. There is a description of the works in H. Kalmeter "Dagbok ofver en 1718-1726 Foretagen Resa", vol 1, folios 349-350. There is a picture of the furnace in R.R. Angerstein, 1753, "Resa genom England, 1753-1755". Bertram pioneered the production of German steel by forging blister steel. Angerstein says that the "Shear Steel" mark - a stamp showing crossed shear blades, was Bertram's own mark. Indded the making of "Shear Steel" was introduced into Sheffield by a workman from Blackhall Mill in 1767. Bertram died around 1740. In 1753 his son was running Blackhall Mill. At this time some 30 tons of "German steel" was made in a year with a further 100 tons or so of blister steel in simple bars. The steel from Newcastle and Blackhall Mill was said to be the best in England, due to the care taken in selecting the iron, and its processing. The furnaces had chests 127 inches long, made from sandstone. The flues and vaults were of Stourbridge bricks and the rest of the structure was in dressed stone. The furnace chimneys were 28-30 feet high with a top diameter of about 3 feet. In 1810 and 1811 the Blackhall Mill site was being worked by the Cooksons. It is omitted from a list of steel manufacturers for 1863 (see Spencer 1864), so must have gone out of operation some time between 1811 and 1863. It may have closed at the same time as Cookson's works in Newcastle, which were abandoned in 1851-53. A postcard dated 1913 shows Blackhall Mill essentially similar to the nearby Derwencote furnace, without the buttresses. Blackhall Mill was demolished in 1916 to make way for a school house."Unquote.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Although peripheral to proceedings it is interesting to note at https://www.scribd.com/document/160671908/Time-Team-Derwentcote-Forge that the Industrialists... spies from Sweden Angerstein and Co were also visitors at Derwentcote ...

[Hotspur]

A site I have never spent enough time with. I have a lot on shelves over there gathering dust.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/

The Hollow Sword Co comes up frequently in a legal aspect. I am forgetting the particulars but the issues during the later 18th century. Worth spending a bit of time there running searches from an enormous database.

Cheers

GC

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Ibrahiim. You have found some vital material here, thank-you. I note Jenny Morrison's involvement in some of the material: she is head of Archaeology for the county but has just returned from her holidays so I am waiting to hear from her regarding this iron and steel issue; I have consulted her a few times in the past; she is sitting on a wealth of information that she can enthusiastically supply without effort.
"Finding a lost play" perfectly put! It is precisely why I have embraced the iron industry in general, and the Derwent Valley in particular. My research into Wootz got me started, and I rapidly began to appreciate just how closely connected are the two industries; with steel surviving, of course, and sword-making becoming a cultural craft.
This research led me - inevitably - to Benjamin Huntsman the clock-maker from Doncaster, who moved to Sheffield's environs as he began his crucible manufacturing. I came across an interesting note on Wikipedia that is apropos of little but the probability that it was Klingenthal where it went; although I am only guessing here - I am certain someone will know for sure:
The local (Sheffield) cutlery manufacturers refused to buy Huntsman's cast steel, as it was harder than the German steel they were accustomed to using. For a long time Huntsman exported his whole output to France.
As I have already stated, the arrival of the Germans in Shotley Bridge was never fully justified - considering the vast number of alternatives, but once you put the iron and steel industry into the equation it becomes far more realistic a proposition.
I don't, however, discount the abundance of necessary facilities and materials available, because they were a pre-requisite. I am particularly interested in Richardson's statement about the water being radio-active; I am determined to track down just what was meant by that and where the proposition came from, as Richardson doesn't say. There was also the business of the water being the equal of the Tagus: just what exactly are we talking about here? Mineral content? Isotopes? What else?
There is still much to confirm however: in particular, the presence of Bertram prior to 1685. I know he was shipwrecked in 1690, but I don't take that to mean he was not here before then; I have to look into that.
One thing I am learning, as I progress with researching history, is that I mustn't jump on the odd piece of information – or even a much repeated myth, like Mohll becoming Mole – just because it presents a convincing scenario. For example, three times in 24 hours I have read that in one case Bertram, and in two cases Hayford, had sword-works in Shotley Bridge: is this true? has it been overlooked by everyone so far? Like I said, don't grasp at stuff just because it fits the picture. A supreme example of this would be to consider that sword-making existed in Shotley Bridge prior to 1685, and that the three members of the Hounslow group simply came up to join existing swordmakers.
I am going to tag a couple of items: one is a report for English Heritage when they took over the care of the Derwentcote forge; the second is a clipping regarding the leading lights of the Sheffield steel industry specifically our very own Denis Hayford.
[IMG]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Richardson. His Spa water apparently tasted pretty bad... perhaps because of the mineral content or even H2S Sulphurous water is supposed to be good for skin ailments etc...

1847. Jonathan Richardson's Spa in Shotley Bridge

The spring anciently called "Hally Well," now Shotley Spa, was at a distant period noted for its efficacy in the cure of scrofulous complaints ( Literally, relating to scrofula (tuberculosis (or TB like bacteria) of the lymph nodes, particularly of the neck). it fell, however, into disuse, and for a long time no benefit was derived from it, till a prevailing tradition lately induced Jonathan Richardson, Esq., to commence a search upon the spot where it was supposed to exist.
The search was successful. Appropriate buildings, a wellroom, baths, &c, were erected in the rustic style; and Mr. Richardson has opened carriage-drives and promenades upon his estate.
In the village, there are two paper-mills in operation; a market for corn is held weekly, and a fair for cattle every half year.

[urbanspaceman]

I found Wilhelm Bertram's birth records: 1670 - 1740; born in Remsheid as previously indicated. 70 years old when he died: not bad for someone who worked in such an awful environment.
The date of his shipwreck varies however between 1690 and 1693.
Regardless of that, he was just into his twenties, very young to be put in charge of a steel-making furnace.
I need to get more details e.g. where was the ship going? coming from? why was he on it? etc, etc.
Hmmm. I think Jenny Morrison may know.

[urbanspaceman]

My obsession with Bertram is because here was another German who mysteriously found his way to Shotley Bridge.
Was he on his way there anyway? And if so, why? Who sent for him? Was he with other industry workers on the ship?
The North Durham coast, where he was shipwrecked, is essentially the mouth of the Tyne, and aiming for the Tyne from out at sea in those days could quite easily have you blown slightly south, usually with tragic results.
In my opinion, his business was on Tyneside; or possibly Wearside if he was going to work for Sir Ambrose Crowley at his works in Sunderland.

[urbanspaceman]

I'm abandoning Bertram, as he could not possibly have been here before 1685 in any capacity that might attract the Hounslow and Solingen pilgrims.
Back to the drawing board and look for Vinting, who was definitely first generation local; and I still think his ancestors were involved in the lead mines at Ryton but we'll have to find out for sure somehow.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

ah I was just looking at that...i picked up the scent at ~

https://www.google.com/search?q=Has+anyone+done+any+research+into+the+VIN TON+family%3F&oq=Has+anyone+done+any+research+into+the+VINTON+fa mily%3F&aqs=chrome..69i57.4052j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The letter goes on to say....

Hello all

Has anyone done any research into the VINTON family?

I am particularly interested in John VINTON who was a chainmaker.
Born in about 1802, he was probably the son of William VINTON of Winlaton
Mill.
However I have been unable to find a baptism for him.

William VINTON [son of Samuel] married Elizabeth FENWICK in July 1797 at
Newcastle All Saints
I believe they had the following children - baptism locations given.
Samuel 1798 Newcastle All Saints
Elizabeth 1800 Newcastle All Saints
John???? 1802???
possibly another child in 1804
Mary Ann 1806 Gateshead
Eleanor 1808 Newcastle All Saints
William 1811 Gateshead

My family history notes tell me that
"The VINTONs were one of the families who went to the Derwent
valley at quite an early time, to participate in the iron industry.
They may indeed have been one of the Shotley Bridge Sword-making
families. If not then they would have been associated with the early
iron foundry at Blackhall Mill or else the one at Derwent Cote. In any
case the original Vintons were of German extraction and many of them
ended up working for Crowleys at Winlaton, Winlaton Mill and Swalwell."

Any help finding John's baptism record in about 1802 - [or William's burial
before 1838] - would be appreciated

see also http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NORTHUMBRIA/1998-07/0900255787

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Ibrahiim. Thank-you, very well done. Jim said you were an expert searcher, and he was right: you must have some secrets I am sure.
I have emailed the genealogy researcher (Heather) on both her email addresses, one of which bounced right back, giving her the entry from Richardson's book, in the slight hope she worked her way back further herself after all this time.
It's beginning to look like the Derwent Valley was known within the German steel/iron/mining industry. I won't venture any further speculations at this point.
Instead, I put Vinton into Google and up popped Vinton Metals/Batteries down in Kent who specialise is the safe salvage of lead/acid batteries.
I've sent them an email as well.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello Ibrahiim. Thank-you, very well done. Jim said you were an expert searcher, and he was right: you must have some secrets I am sure.
I have emailed the genealogy researcher (Heather) on both her email addresses, one of which bounced right back, giving her the entry from Richardson's book, in the slight hope she worked her way back further herself after all this time.
It's beginning to look like the Derwent Valley was known within the German steel/iron/mining industry. I won't venture any further speculations at this point.
Instead, I put Vinton into Google and up popped Vinton Metals/Batteries down in Kent who specialise is the safe salvage of lead/acid batteries.
I've sent them an email as well.


Good work Keith... Its just dogged hard work at this end and no secrets ....Luckily you are on the ground there... I think a lot of these names fuse together as a group of operators that essentially faded away dispersed to other centres like Birmingham and back to Europe...as the natural decline enveloped the region. I suspect the failure of the Colichemarde because of lack of machinery and the end of the Napolionic wars etc were ultimately responsible.

[urbanspaceman]

I suspect you may be right about the fusion of operators, but I don't believe the lack of a Colichemarde was ever a factor in their decline: I think they could have fabricated a grinding machine without difficulty; there has to be a reason they didn't.
There is another possibility could account for the choice of SB, and that is Thomas Carnforth the Newcastle cutler, who was certainly involved here and there, and to a greater or lesser degree. He was one of the people who testified on Mohll's behalf at his trial.
He wasn't one of the original four businessmen, but Johannes Dell was; along with a chap called John Sandford from Newcastle - who dropped out relatively quickly when the company began to deviate into fiscal areas; I haven't been able to find anything about him.
It may well be that the forge activity at Allensford (Vinting perhaps?) was known to Thomas Carnforth or John Sandford or both; and if Carnforth - who must have been buying Solingen blades - had trade connections with Johannes Dell (who became John Bell: one of the four businessmen starting the company) then that may have been all that was necessary to entice the two Hounslow men (Henkells and Hoppe) up here to team up with John Bell in 1685. Then Bell would return to Solingen to bring the main immigrants over when demand looked promising in 1687.
It may have been as simple as that. Let's face it: back in those days, German immigrants would almost certainly know about each other in a place as small as Newcastle (population in 1600s c.10,000) especially as the local cutler was dealing with them all.
On a separate note:
If they were turning out thousands of blades for the Crown/Government, then London cutlers would have finished them. If they were selling to the Jacobites, then Scotland's cutlers must have been involved. Who was in a position to finish thousands of blades? Trouble is, at best, SB may have stamped the tang, so who today knows where the blades came from?
Ever forwards, it's beginning to take shape I feel. Thanks again Ibrahiim.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I suspect you may be right about the fusion of operators, but I don't believe the lack of a Colichemarde was ever a factor in their decline: I think they could have fabricated a grinding machine without difficulty; there has to be a reason they didn't.
There is another possibility could account for the choice of SB, and that is Thomas Carnforth the Newcastle cutler, who was certainly involved here and there, and to a greater or lesser degree. He was one of the people who testified on Mohll's behalf at his trial.
He wasn't one of the original four businessmen, but Johannes Dell was; along with a chap called John Sandford from Newcastle - who dropped out relatively quickly when the company began to deviate into fiscal areas; I haven't been able to find anything about him.
It may well be that the forge activity at Allensford (Vinting perhaps?) was known to Thomas Carnforth or John Sandford or both; and if Carnforth - who must have been buying Solingen blades - had trade connections with Johannes Dell (who became John Bell: one of the four businessmen starting the company) then that may have been all that was necessary to entice the two Hounslow men (Henkells and Hoppe) up here to team up with John Bell in 1685. Then Bell would return to Solingen to bring the main immigrants over when demand looked promising in 1687.
It may have been as simple as that. Let's face it: back in those days, German immigrants would almost certainly know about each other in a place as small as Newcastle (population in 1600s c.10,000) especially as the local cutler was dealing with them all.
On a separate note:
If they were turning out thousands of blades for the Crown/Government, then London cutlers would have finished them. If they were selling to the Jacobites, then Scotland's cutlers must have been involved. Who was in a position to finish thousands of blades? Trouble is, at best, SB may have stamped the tang, so who today knows where the blades came from?
Ever forwards, it's beginning to take shape I feel. Thanks again Ibrahiim.


PLEASE SEE http://helensteadman.com/blog/4592669121/Literature-Review-4-Thread-of-Iron-by-Douglas-Vernon-(A-Definitive-History-of-Shotley)/10983141

Which digs deep into the problem at Chapter 9.
One thing I note is that it is quoted as one of the reasons why the sword ,makers came to the area was fast flowing water... That is interesting for except on the occasion of heavy flooding the Derwent is not fast flowing except at about two places according to photographs ...One is at Shotley Bridge and the other is at The Rush adjacent the Paper Mill a mile up river at Shotley Grove, The Mill now vanished but where the entire river in both cases passes through rocks and only about 5 feet wide. So it is quite specific. I think also that water for tempering steel was also important. The document also mentions grit from the river bed.

[kronckew]

let's not get our terms mixed up.

annealing is heating the metal to the critical point then cooling it slowly to make it softer and more workable. sometimes the hot steel is covered in an insulate and allowed to cool overnight of for a couple of days...

hardening is done by heating to the critical temp, at which point the steel is no longer magnetic, then cooling it rapidly in oil or water. too quickly can cause excess stress and cracks. modern steels rarely are hardened by full immersion in cool water. hardening produces a steel that can be brittle, so this hardness is then tempered to reduce internal stresses producing a more shock resistant material.

tempering is done by reheating the hardened steel to well below the critical, holding it there for a controlled time to relieve the stresses then allowing it to cool in air. tempering reduced the hardness as well as the fragility. hard edges last longer but can flake off bits or even shatter like glass, a tad too soft is better than a tad too hard. you can bend a bent knife back to shape, but not one that has snapped.

specialty alloys can have variations in the heat treatment cycles including using liquified gases for sub-cooling to produce known properties and crystal formations. morden steels have fairly strict time and temperature regimes for annealing, hardening, and tempering that are digitally controlled with little room for deviation.

heck, asian smiths have been known to produce repeatable differential heat treatments, differential hardening, and tempering in one step by pouring boiling water from a teapot onto the edge of a weapon that has been heated to the correct color as judged by the master smith. this produces a softer less fragile spine graduating to a harder edge supported by the tougher spine. only takes a few decades of training and practice.

it's all a balancing game, you must be hard enough to hold an edge thru a reasonable amount of use before it must be resharpened, but not so hard it snaps or loses chunks of the edge. the blade must be also tough enogh to flex and return to shape without either getting permanent set, or snapping. again, like in japanese swords, a bend can be field corrected by a swordsman, a fracture cannot.

p.s. - don't take 'forged in fire' as an instruction manual in how to
produce or test, or use a good knife or sword.

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you yet again Ibrahiim, well done indeed. I noted mention of her blog in your earlier post (15) but I didn't read beyond that chapter on Bygate.
She is hosting an event on the 17th in Gateshead: it's for her latest book but I think I will go and talk to her anyway. She appears to be mining the same seams as us in many places. Her intent is fiction based on the SB swordmakers so I'm sure she will welcome an opportunity to swap notes.
I wondered what had happened to Jim - he was conspicuous by his absence - but he return emailed me to say he will be back soon.
I'm going to – hopefully – talk to Jenny Morrison tomorrow (head of archaeology for Newcastle county) if she emerges from the pile-up of work during her vacation.
I've had no response from the Royal Armouries, or the two Vintons I emailed at the weekend; still, patience prospers.

[urbanspaceman]

This is the opening chapter of my intended local-history book, starting by describing a little bit of the mystery and science behind a perfect sword-blade. I introduce this here because I know there will be many folk reading this thread who know a great deal more about the subject than I do, and will hopefully correct any/the mistakes I may have made.
Wootz!
It started in India around the 6th century BCE and it was fundamentally the 'crucible steel' developed by Huntsman at Sheffield in 1742; although, even to this day, and despite our scientific techniques, there remains much that is not understood or replicable about Wootz steel, which is both superplastic and very hard: precisely what you require for sword-blades. However, when you consider that India's iron-age began almost a thousand years earlier than ours, then their superiority all begins to look a little unsurprising.
To make Wootz, they sealed cubes of malleable (or pasty) iron-ore into melon shaped clay containers, along with specific chopped-up dried wood and leaves – not charcoal though which is no substitute, as it does not contain the carbon nanotubes which are vital – then put them in an oven and blasted them with high temperatures for four hours; removed the result and cooked it in a charcoal fire for several hours until the excess carbon was extracted. Hey Presto: Wootz!
It wasn't until the 1600s that high carbon alloys even became apparent over here in Western Europe; although once the Crusaders got under-way, they became painfully aware of the incredible characteristics of swords used in Persia made from Indian Wootz, and referred to as Damascus blades.
This Damascening of blades made of Wootz steel was not an entirely mechanical process – based on folding and/or twisting the steel during forging (known as 'billet' welding), and occasionally acid etching – it was also crucially dependant on the unique molecular properties of the Wootz.
Very simply put (if that's possible) it is now understood to be a eutectoid steel: analyses tell of the presence of carbon nanotubes enclosing nanowires of cementite, with the trace elements/impurities of vanadium, molybdenum, chromium, etc. contributing to their creation during cycles of heating/cooling/forging. This resulted in a hard, high carbon steel that remained malleable.
Of course, there does require the forging process, with its complex rules regarding the quenching of the hot steel in order to temper it, and therein exists a whole alternative science-fiction with 3,000 years of secrecy and fairy-tales surrounding it; and among those myths, some may well have contained an element (pun intended) of truth, for example:
According to Dr. Helmut Nickel, curator of the Arms and Armour Division of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, legend had it that the best blades were quenched in ''dragon blood.'' However, a little closer to reality – but only just: in a recent letter to the museum, a Pakistani gentleman told of a sword held in his family for many generations, quenched by its Afghan makers in donkey urine. This concurs with some medieval blade-smiths over here, who recommended the urine of redheaded boys or, more realistically, from a ''three-year-old goat fed only ferns for three days.'' Were someone to analyze these bodily fluids, they may well discover the presence of elements pertinent to metallurgy; then again, modern scientists may not have the time or inclination to start breeding goats... or red headed boys.

[urbanspaceman]

ps BTW
I found the contact number and called John G. Bygate today. I wanted to know if he had continued research once his book was published - he didn't - and also if he objected to his work being made publically accessible via this forum, and he was, as I had anticipated, very pleased to know his brief endeavour has now been disseminated amongst interested parties. I also gave him the link to this forum thread so he could monitor proceedings; and maybe offer input should the need arise.

[urbanspaceman]

I just wish I could have done the same with Mr. Bezdek; I have so many questions I might have put to him.

[Mel H]

Hello all, I've been a follower of the site for quite a long time and have recently taken the step of 'signing up', this is my first post.
I've long had an interest in the blades made at Shotley Bridge and am enjoying this particular thread, just a quick note to Urbanspaceman. Do you know of the paper written by Rhys Jenkins and read at the North of England institute of Mining and Mechanical Engineers in 1935?
I've not yet had time to digest the full thread so may have missed any mention of it.
M.H.

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum Mel :).
You will surely enjoy being here.

[Jim McDougall]

Along with Fernando, I would like to welcome you to the forum Mel!!
Keith, Ibrahiim and I have been quite interested in advancing the collective data and knowledge on Shotley Bridge and the related topics of Hounslow and the Hollow Sword Blade Co. for some time and heartily welcome others who share this interest.

The Rhys-Jenkins resource has been included in earlier posts, but thank you so much for bringing it up, one never knows what sources have been missed.

Looking forward to hearing more on your interest in this most esoteric topic.

All the best
Jim

[urbanspaceman]

Hello all, I've been a follower of the site for quite a long time and have recently taken the step of 'signing up', this is my first post.
I've long had an interest in the blades made at Shotley Bridge and am enjoying this particular thread, just a quick note to Urbanspaceman. Do you know of the paper written by Rhys Jenkins and read at the North of England institute of Mining and Mechanical Engineers in 1935?
I've not yet had time to digest the full thread so may have missed any mention of it.
M.H.
Hello Mel. I am pleased to have you on board this thread: welcome.
You have reminded me: I am supposed to go down to the Mining Institute and read a bunch of stuff that has come up on this thread; for some reason, I don't seen to be able to open some archives. I know the folks down there and they are not only obliging but enthusiastic about digging out ancient tomes for me. Everything connected to Newcomen is directly accessible there, and that is what I am going to peruse. It's really a remarkable place, and the folk who work there are volunteers for the most part; when you go through the doors, it is like stepping back 100 years or more. Next door is the Lit and Phil as it is known locally: The Literary and Philosophic Society to be correct. Between the two, I would venture that every sparkling mind in the entire industrial revolution has graced its halls; and the Mining Inst's lecture hall is a genuine marvel with an atmosphere that is absolutely beyond compare... and that includes the Royal Institute.
Sorry, I've strayed far from the thread; I just get all gooey when mention is made of those two places. Again, welcome. Please post anything anytime, as Jim said, it is all valuable. I believe that we are beginning to see a light at the end of the tunnel of mystery penetrating Shotley Bridge.

[urbanspaceman]

Sorry Mel, I wasn't paying attention: you are from the North East, so you will know all about those two revered sanctums.

[urbanspaceman]

I heard about an article, published in a local newspaper back in 1984, telling of a new permanent exhibition at one of our local museums (the one with Lord Gort's five SB swords on display; now ended) which was a transcription of details given by the curator.
Two pieces of information appear (there may be more but the microfiche was badly taken so some of the article is missing; another job for tomorrow) that I feel are worth posting as the curator had done his homework (I recently read all his notes at our local archives) so here they are:
[IMG]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Most interesting signs ...It still never actually says Colichemarde though... Only hollow blades... Do they mean hollow sharpening?

Welcome to the Forum to Mel H. That's two Northern members...an army almost !!

[Raf]

I dont know whether this of interest but I bought this sad little sword the other day. The blade definitely qualifies as hollow ground but isnt Colichemarde type.

[Mel H]

In over fifty years of collecting I can safely say that I've seen very few available swords with the Shotley Bridge name on the blade, most of which were straight blades. The more common offerings that I saw were mid 18th C. hangers with the bushy tailed fox stamp.
It seems to be clear that large quantities of blades were produced, given the length time that the industry was there, I've always assumed that many were produced without markings and subsequently may be more common than we think but we'll probably never know.
I remember being told in my earlier collecting days about the mercury filled hollow blades and thinking at the time that it was all a something of a fable, as my knowledge increased I came to the conclusion that the term was a description of the popular three sided 'smallsword' blade of the time.
I have to add that, as a collector of smallswords, I have examined a large selection of hollow blades over the years and never seen or heard of one with any indication of being made at SB, my personal view is that none were made there.
Mel.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello to all you folks reading this thread.
I have a request.
It's kind of like the compare getting the audience to join in with the show.
In my last post I inserted a clip that referred to 37 different types of blade available from the Shotley Bridge swordmakers; that's a lot of different styles, and as a complete novice I am overwhelmed by the prospect of tracking down all these blade types but I do wish to illustrate them in my intended book on the SB swordmakers.
Could I ask everyone to submit names of as many styles in use at the time?
Any pictures would be particularly appreciated. :rolleyes:

[urbanspaceman]

The more common offerings that I saw were mid 18th C. hangers with the bushy tailed fox stamp. Mel.

Hello Mel. I don't know if you've reached that part of the thread yet, but we are considering the possibility that the fox was never used by the SB sword-makers - only by Birmingham smiths.
We are even questioning whether the Passau Wolf was actually used by the SB smiths or if it came already stamped on smuggled Solingen imports brought by Mohll for finishing at SB.
Well, I am considering all of this; although I have support with regard to the fox. It's always been associated with the SB blades, but now I'm beginning to wonder.
Do you have knowledge of blades definitely made at SB that feature the fox?
I never received a response from the vendor of the sword ascribed to Oley sold at auction last year (see earlier post).
I think it is impossible to determine the wolf issue because the SB name may easily have been added to ready made stock after the fact.

[urbanspaceman]

Most interesting signs ...It still never actually says Colichemarde though... Only hollow blades... Do they mean hollow sharpening.
Hello Ibrahiim. Re. the above: I notice that it costs a £1.0s.0d. for a 'Hollow' blade in contrast to £1.10s a dozen for other blades: essentially twelve times as much. This has to be for something more than a sharpening, or even a fuller of one sort or another. Perhaps these were the blades smuggled in from Solingen. If they wanted to sell hollow blades, even at such a price, that price had to be very competitive compared with the 'official' Solingen blades imported with appropriate duty paid.
There is that mention in a letter to Cotesworth that tells of a 'Gent' in London having to 'venture' £8.00 for a decent sword; so even after the hilting and etc., £1.0s.0d. for the blade was more than acceptable.
On another note: it appears that Carnforth was actively involved in the setting up of SB in advance of the 19 arriving. I suspect it was a joint arrangement with the Hounslow three and the Syndicate, plus Vinting. I'm using that as a working hypothesis for the time being anyway but happy to be shot down whenever.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello Ibrahiim. Re. the above: I notice that it costs a £1.0s.0d. for a 'Hollow' blade in contrast to £1.10s a dozen for other blades: essentially twelve times as much. This has to be for something more than a sharpening, or even a fuller of one sort or another. Perhaps these were the blades smuggled in from Solingen. If they wanted to sell hollow blades, even at such a price, that price had to be very competitive compared with the 'official' Solingen blades imported with appropriate duty paid.
There is that mention in a letter to Cotesworth that tells of a 'Gent' in London having to 'venture' £8.00 for a decent sword; so even after the hilting and etc., £1.0s.0d. for the blade was more than acceptable.
On another note: it appears that Carnforth was actively involved in the setting up of SB in advance of the 19 arriving. I suspect it was a joint arrangement with the Hounslow three and the Syndicate, plus Vinting. I'm using that as a working hypothesis for the time being anyway but happy to be shot down whenever.


As I note from a previous post what is the difference between a Hollow blade and hollow grinding. I assume hollow blade means the Colichemarde form so far as I can see never done in Shotley Bridge..I cannot believe that this could be done by hand. Hollow grinding however was something different and possible on the flat blades Shotley was turning out.

Regarding Hollow Blade machinery~ what was that? I have tried to reverse engineer this problem ~ Indications are that it was connected to small wheels as a concept. Small grinding wheels a half inch across up to about an inch across perhaps set up on a machine of quite simple mechanics. 3 small spinning grinding wheels; Inch, half inch and quarter inch diameter placed so they are almost touching in concentric form with the Colichemarde shape in the centre. Starting with the basic blade shape of triangular main blade and a flat top cross section of about 12 inches. Several sets of these (three wheels) to cover the diminishing size of the blade moving toward the tip and that's the sword done. Final sharpening and sword complete . Without the concentric grinding wheels this would take forever.

To remind readers about the basics on Colichemarde~From https://www.knifeplanet.net/buyers-guide-best-modern-swords-reviews/ Quote "While the Rapier and the Small Sword are both excellent civilian weapons, they were both specifically designed for fencing with an unarmored opponent with a blade of similar weight and design. However, when facing and opponent wielding a much heavier military style blade, they both have the distinct disadvantage of being prone to break when used to parry a powerful slashing cut.

Therefore, the Colichemarde Sword was specifically designed to provide civilians with a sword that retained the speed of a Rapier and the convenience of a Small Sword but, which was also capable of parrying a blow from a much heavier sword without fear of it breaking. Therefore, the blade of the Colichemarde Sword consists of a heavy duty parrying forte combined with a much lighter and thinner cutting and stabbing section to provide a civilian swordsman with the ability to defend himself from opponents wielding much heavier, military style, blades."Unquote.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I have notes indicating that hollow blades were found dumped in the Estuary ... This means probably that hollow blades had been entering the system at Shotley...If this was only for polishing and hilting this could have been done ...
At https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/14807895-literature-review-6-the-swordmakers-of-shotley-bridge-their-strange The Author Helen Steadman speaks about the Richardson book but it can be seen that Richardson is unable to substantiate a number of details including the radio active water comment supposedly good for the steel treatment process...and said to be an advantage of Derwent water...
Richardson refers to the court papers from the quarter sessions (Northumberland Record Office), and he mentions various letters and statements, so these will be useful to check when I begin the archive work. Quote"He explores the notion of Mohll’s involvement with the Jacobites, but dismisses this, saying ‘that no plots were uncovered’ (p.45). He also refers to there being only hollow blades dumped in the river (p.46), and wonders at Mohll’s release, suggesting ‘Herman Mohll himself must have been surprised and certainly must have sensed an unseen kindly hand’ (p.46)."Unquote.

However a number of indicators are not substantiated in the Richardson book such as THE WATER AT THE SPA WAS SUPPOSEDLY SLIGHTLY RADIO ACTIVE AS SPA WATER OFTEN IS...BUT THAT IS NOT DERWENT WATER BUT DRAWN FROM A WELL.

I somehow doubt that Richardson was pinpoint accurate when he noted that these Hollow Swords were all that was dumped ...Did he mean Colichemarde or flat blades Hollow Ground?

[kronckew]

colchemarde blades were not necessarily hollow ground on three sides of a triangle, they were small swords where the initial forte section was very noticeably wider to allow for a strong parry, like the one below. some had a noticeable central ridge, some had forged in fullers, some had shallow triangular x-sections with a 'hollow ground' fuller on one side, flat on the other two. some had flat hexagon shapes. simply put in other words, they varied in x-section like any other sword...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

colchemarde blades were not necessarily hollow ground on three sides of a triangle, they were small swords where the initial forte section was very noticeably wider to allow for a strong parry, like the one below. some had a noticeable central ridge, some had forged in fullers, some had shallow triangular x-sections with a 'hollow ground' fuller on one side, flat on the other two. some had flat hexagon shapes. simply put in other words, they varied in x-section like any other sword...

That is interesting. I note also a false hollow form with a different x section. However for the discussion we cannot find any x form Colichimarde or anything resembling it made at the Shotley Bridge Factory. The reference material confuses (I suspect) hollow ground edges on flat blades, with hollow swords of the Colichemarde form.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

To re examine or simply have this note as an anchor on thread I have a precis of the Hollow Blade Co. fiasco from Wike Quote"

Hollow Sword Blade Company
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Hollow Sword Blades Company was a British joint-stock company founded in 1691 for the manufacture of hollow-ground rapiers by a goldsmith, Sir Stephen Evance. The company ceased manufacturing swords in 1702 following the suicide of its founder and was purchased by a syndicate of businessmen who used the corporate identity of the company to operate as a bank. At this time the Bank of England held a monopoly by act of parliament as the only organisation permitted to operate as a bank in England, so anyone wishing to carry out banking operations had to do so by devious means. The company was used as a stepping stone to the foundation of the South Sea Company which set out to supplant the Bank of England as banker to the government.

Foundation.
Sir Stephen Evance was a goldsmith whose father had been born in New England, but who had set up a business in Lombard Street in London. Evance did not confine his interests simply to metalwork, but had attempted salvage work with a diving machine, lead mining, mineral prospecting in Canada, a fishing enterprise off the coast of Ireland in partnership with Sir James Houblon (one of the founders of the Bank of England) and a draper named Samuel Ongley.

In 1691 war between France and England interrupted the importation of hollow ground swords from France which had become popular weapons in England and a business opportunity presented to manufacture the swords in England. Evance arranged for Huguenot metalworkers to move to Britain to manufacture the swords and obtained a charter of corporation as the 'Governor and Company for Making Hollow Sword Blades in England', granted 13 October 1691. The company obtained premises at Shotley Bridge in Durham. Granting of the charter plus two patents was on condition the applicants loaned the government £50,000, which sum was provided by Evance and Sir Francis Child in August 1692. Evance was appointed the first governor of the company, Peter Reneu the deputy governor, assistants Francis Tissen, Matthew Evans, John Carter, John Holland, Abraham Dashwood, John Samford, Robert Peter, Thomas Evans, Peter Justice, John Reneu, William Reneu, John Baker. The corporation had power to purchase land and issue stock to unlimited value.

The company manufactured swords and by virtue of the charter had power to seize imported foreign hollow swords. Evance became an excise commissioner and succeeded Childs as jeweller to King William III. However, after the king's death in 1702 the business failed and Evance committed suicide. One of the swordsmiths employed by the company, Herman Mohll continued to manufacture swords at Shotley in his own right under the name Herman Mohll and son, founding a company which continued with a change of name to Mole in 1832. The company was purchased by Wilkinson Sword in 1922.

Banking operations[edit]
The Sword Blade Company was sold and moved to Birchin Lane in London, to the premises of its new company secretary, John Blunt, a scrivener (lawyer specialising in business and financial contracts). The sale was probably arranged by Francis Child, whose son was a banker and business associate of Blunt. The new Governor was Elias Turner, a goldsmith with a shop in Lombard street under the sign of the Fleece, who provided both finance and experience. The deputy Governor was Jacob Sawbridge, who came from a business family and who had a small estate in Canterbury. The fourth partner, George Caswall, came from Leominster which his family had represented as MP for generations. His father had been Mayor, and Receiver of the land tax for Monmouthshire. Caswall was a partner with another goldsmith, Brassey, specialising in finance and trading securities. Daniel Defoe described them: "Sawbridge is as cunning as Caswall is bold, and the reserve of the one with the openness of the other makes a complete Exchange Alley man. Turner ... acts in concert..and makes together a complete triumvirate of thieving". (Exchange Alley was the place where stock trading and other financial transactions took place in London.) The objective of the partnership was to break into the business monopolised by the Bank of England, which was handling and providing loans for the government.

In 1703 the company purchased some of the Irish estates forfeited under the Williamite settlement in counties Mayo, Sligo, Galway, and Roscommon. They also bought the forfeited estates of the Earl of Clancarty (McCarthy) in counties Cork and Kerry and of Sir Patrick Trant in counties Kerry, Limerick, Kildare, Dublin, King and Queen's counties (Offaly and Laois). Further lands in counties Limerick, Tipperary, Cork and other counties, formerly the estate of James II were also purchased, also part of the estate of Lord Cahir in county Tipperary. In June 1703 the company bought a large estate in county Cork, confiscated from a number of attainted persons and other lands in counties Waterford and Clare. However within about 10 years the company had sold most of its Irish estates. Francis Edwards, a London merchant, was one of the main purchasers.

The recent conquest of Ireland by England had resulted in the confiscation of land from Jacobites which had been given to members of the army. Blunt was amongst others who campaigned that the property should instead have been sold to defer government expenses, and an act of parliament was passed cancelling the grants of land which instead were to be sold. The Sword Blade company now used its charter powers to own property to purchase land to the value of £200,000 with anticipated revenues of £20,000 per year, or 10%. To pay for this, the company used a trick which the Bank of England had employed in its own creation. The Hollow Sword Blades Company issued shares, which it was also entitled to do under its charter. It offered to exchange its own shares at a nominal value of £100 for £100 of government debt issued by the army paymaster. The government was willing to accept its own debt as payment for the land, so no cash money was required for the transactions. The army debt could at that time only be sold on the open market at a rate of £85 per £100 of face value, so this offered a way for holders to realise a better price. The land remained the property of the company, and the company would pay dividends on the shares from its rental income.

The deal was negotiated with the treasury by Blunt and their legal advisor, Lake and agreed on 1 June 1704. Once the debt was cancelled, the government no longer had to pay interest upon it, which it had been doing at 7.5%. However, it also required a 'sweetener' in the form of receiving a new loan of £20,000 at 5% as part of the deal, secured against Royal shares in Cornish tin.

Before announcing the offer, the Sword Blade Syndicate made full advantage of the anticipated rise in value of army debt, by buying as much as it could privately beforehand. This was then sold as the price rose once the general market realised there was an offer available to trade in the debt at its full value.

The Sword Blade company also branched out into providing mortgages for other would be purchasers of Irish land, accepting cash deposits and issuing its own notes. This came to the attention of the Bank of England, who advised the treasury that their own monopoly to act as a bank was being infringed. The treasury took no action. In part, the government recognised that it had a good deal it did not wish to spoil. There was also a legal complication, that the Bank act protected it against any other company being set up by act of parliament to operate as a bank. In the case of the sword company charter, although the steps to enact its charter had been commenced, they had never actually been completed in parliament.

The Bank of England charter was due to expire in 1710, and they were concerned to arrange its renewal. Others, however, continued to lobby parliament not to do so, and a new syndicate had formed, offering to take on funding of the latest loan required by government. The Bank responded by dropping its interest rate to underbid the competition, and succeeded in renewing its charter until 1732, with more strictly drawn terms to prevent others operating as banks.

Further complications faced the Sword Blade company, as title to land in Ireland began to be disputed by relatives of dispossessed Jacobites and others claiming to have bought from the initial beneficiaries of the first cancelled land distribution. The matter was settled by an act of parliament in 1708 setting a time limit on further claims, but by then the company stock had fallen to £55 per nominal £100 issued. As some consolation, pressure was also mounting on the Bank of England from an increasingly distressed government seeking new ways to raise money."Unquote.

In Conclusion It would seem that the situation on Hollow Ground Swords ... The Colichemarde type was in fact a ruse gone viral... The swords were probably never manufactured in England at all although some finishing processes are plausible. The whole idea was to manipulate the licence for greater private gain in supplanting the bank of England in South Sea Bubble operations which would have included such distasteful but highly profitable business as slavery. Shotley Bridge would have been advised to go along with the story since these power brokers in the City held powerful sway in the administration of immigration from Europe of specialists, sword workers and other customs avoidance matters perhaps such as sword blades from Germany? And getting people out of jail!! Mohll?

[urbanspaceman]

There is a vexing question that I am struggling with - hence my recent silence - and that is simply this: did they intend to produce hollow blades, then concentrate on military supply; or was it a deliberate façade from the start?
I am presently studying the overall political situation in Britain from 1680 onwards in the hope it might shed some light on why they began the project in the first place.
There were certainly many petitions and requests being bandied about in the mid 1600s regarding manufacturing hollow blades; how did any of them intend to achieve a viable output without the grinding machine? They were in no better a position in Hounslow at the time, yet many attempts were made to set up a hollow blade production facility there. Hmmm.

[Jim McDougall]

Hey Keith,
These are some vexing questions indeed, and now that you and Ibrahiim are 'on the case' I think we can get somewhere. Despite the apparent lack of community interest on this topic here, it seems that has been an inherent posture in the arms community at large for too many years. Little has been really done on this for 70+ years beyond simply conveying old material over again.

In my opinion, and writing off the cuff here, the 'Hollow Sword Co.' was created, more as a front for banking enterprises and real estate speculation. There was a good degree of interest in the developing new forms of rapier blades and fencing forms, which I think was a genuine interest at first. The Hounslow enterprise had ended after the end of the civil wars, and it seems the blade production had gone to London/Birmingham. However, these centers were plagued with notably poorly regarded blade quality.
The descendants of some of the Hounslow families were recruited to establish facilities at Shotley Bridge, where the Derwent river and standing grist mills could be converted to blade producing mills.

Under the guise of this, the Hollow Blade Co. began, and I believe were indeed intending to produce such rapier blades, however geopolitical unrest both overseas and with the Jacobite issues resulted in the clear need for supplies of military weapons. I think that there was actual production in degree, but that much of the volume was 'salted' with imported blades from Germany via Holland. Much of this stock coming in seems represented by the shipment Mohll was caught with, a number of such blades, and also of hangers.

The reason the banking set up was contrived was that the Bank of England held a monopoly on banking and loans etc. The syndicated speculation in real estate in trade in the South Seas (South America) and confiscated Irish properties in the political troubles of the times, was filtered through the 'sword company'.
The actual mills in my understanding used grindstones converted from existing ones there already. In the lists of Shotley Bridge, many of the names show them as 'grinders' as well as proprietors. There does seem to have been actual production in addition to the furbishing of imported or 'salted' products.

While I have presumed that some of the blades were marked with a 'fox' instead of the German wolf of Solingen products, I have seen the German wolf next to SHOTLEY BRIDG on blades. I think this may be a mix due to the combined German and English workers there so perhaps both existed, just as variants will.

While sword blade production waned with the advent of Birmingham and London in mid 18th century, I believe Shotley probably continued with cutlery and such sundry products into the final days in the 19th c,
Whether some sword blades were either produced or fitted there in these later times is hard to say. It does not seem official records recognize Shotley as an entity active in such enterprise so possibly other business records and ledgers might have them showing what their function was.

Most of this is simply reiterating what Ibrahiim has explained in much greater detail in the previous post.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaam Jim,

My concern about the Shotley Bridge factory is that no blade appears to exist from there with a Fox (bushy tail variety) So far as l know it was a Samuel Harvey Mark from Birmingham only.

Shotley only appears to have used the Running Wolf. The Passau stick version.

Regarding Jacobite weapons...The Shotley Swordmakers would all have been arrested and probably executed had they provided blades to the Jacobite cause marked SHOTLEY BRIDGE. Newcastle was heavily garrisoned and immediate action would have ended the Derwent production.

Mohl being in the know... purchased cheap unfinished military blades in Solingen for refining at Shotley and we see grinders and engraver employed there...probably linked to London Gentlemens Outfitters providing swords to rich city men. MOHLL was key to all of that.

Great pressure was being encountered with the demise of ordinary blades and the Solingen mass production of Colichemarde ..a term we do not hear in Shotley evidence...We only hear the term Hollow Blades and it is unclear what they meant by that phrase. lf there were swords with tri angular blade form at Shotley we have no examples...So as to escape this timewarp...and stay modern in the industry specialists simply left: l think this was an added reason the unit dwindled and coincided with the rise to power in England of German George.

The real reason, however, may well have been the corrupt development around the skulduggery of The Hollow Sword Co. This unsavoury lot were up to their necks in the dirty business of South Sea Co activity and the rich pickings of slavery..No doubt also the lucrative international trade in Ivory for billiard ball and piano keys !...

As you say the idea was to supplant the Bank of England thus this was a huge enterprise..so when it collapsed the repercussions must have also dislocated Shotley Bridge activity and the Blade makers would have started to look elsewhere...

A short resurgence in flat blades was followed by demise but eventually Birmingham and Germany pulled most of the workers away...Cutlery may have only served as a brief respite but the end of the Napoleonic wars may have finally put a lid on Shotley Bridge production.

Has anyone seen a Colichimarde machine...? I am intrigued to see what that looked like.

[urbanspaceman]

I am in complete agreement Ibrahiim: all blades going for military use, regardless of politics or religion, would not have been marked at all.
I need to find out why the two Londoners (Parsons and Justice), half of the original syndicate of four, were involved in an armoury developed up North. As I said, there were numerous previous attempts to set up a hollow blade manufactory both in London and Hounslow.
The syndicate existed prior to 1685: Charles II helped these two Londoners, along with Sanford from Newcastle (and probably Carnforth), to bring Henekels and Hoppe from Oxford, and Dell from Hounslow, up to SB. This syndicate of four (Dell had become one of them) then brought the 19 families over at James II's behest in '87. That same year they petitioned the king to grant them exclusive right to produce hollow blades using a new milling machine; but as far as James II was concerned they were not brought over to produce hollow blades – that had been the wish of Charles II – James wanted broadswords for his ever growing standing army: granted by parliament and camped on Hounslow Heath. In fact, the exclusive right to make hollow blades was never actually signed by King James.
Regardless of that, work had already begun at SB, and the new arrivals were bound by a six year contract to the syndicate, which eventually (in '88) officially leased land from William Johnson, who owned the estate and had previously allowed the adaption of his corn-mill there to produce blades; hence the abandoned giant corn mill-stone Ibrahiim. What we have to remember is that those two Germans - Henekels and Hoppe - had previously moved from Hounslow to Oxford and began work on behalf of the king using a converted corn-mill, which is essentially what they did at SB. I think the new arrivals spent their first year building homes and getting established, alongside helping out at the new works.
King William 1st finally granted the charter to a reformed syndicate in 1691, and the Hollow Sword Blade Company was certified. At least six years since the original syndicate was formed, and with new syndicate member Peter Reneau now in charge at SB. That same year, Mohll, Schimmelbush, Groats, Krantz and Voes rented a premises in SB and set up a grinding, polishing and finishing mill. Adam Ohlig (the blade forger) built Cutler's Hall; and John Sanford (previously of the syndicate) leased a corn-mill at Lintzford (up-river from SB and near Blackhall) to make blades.
At this point I suspect Sir Stephen Evance and his new partners had begun to realise the potential of this newly formed company; because despite all things being very well established, there appears to have been no attempt to employ a hollows grinding machine. I think it was better to let SB produce common or garden blades and have the specialist blades smuggled in from Solingen. I am certain that the great political weight exerted by this new syndicate/company was the reason Mohll was released without charge despite being found red-handed smuggling blades on a Jacobite ship.

[Jim McDougall]

This is brilliant insight guys! and it is starting to really make sense with these well thought out assessments. When I first heard of all these terms and names so many years ago, it was so complicated I honestly could never get a foothold in it. Thanks to you two, the puzzle pieces begin to fit.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

and John Sanford (previously of the syndicate) leased a corn-mill at Lintzford (up-river from SB and near Blackhall) to make blades.

Kieth.. Lintzford is down stream of Shotley Bridge.. as is Blackhall Mill...See https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/getoutside/local/lintzford-county-durham

Great research so far... It wouldn't surprise me if Blackbeard the Pirate turned up next !! :shrug:

Has anyone a copy of what a Hollow Sword making machine looked like?

I have to agree with page 34 on https://oldswords.com/articles/Smallswords%20-%20Overlooked%20Collectibles-v1i1.pdf

and the conclusion that since the Shotley Makers never became millionaires because they were unable to produce Colichemerde and were thus relegated to flat, military, far cheaper blades...and anyway swords were either going out of fashion because of gunpowder weapons and the general decline of wars in Europe requiring such blades...plus the agonising time needed to even turn out one Colichemarde by hand was simply not viable... :shrug:

[Jim McDougall]

An interesting note , the colichemarde apparently only was in favor in the civilian sector for a short time, yet it remained a favorite for military officers until nearly the end of the 18th c.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

However ! Here is something I have dug up... A story linking all of this except the illusion perhaps caused by the financial institution The Hollow Blade Co etc etc This is a long chapter but in it are gems of detail not to be missed. From http://archive.li/8YXCY Quote"

THE GERMAN SWORDMAKERS Of SHOTLEY BRIDGE

by H. Raine

AMONGST the refugees who came to England about 1685 because of religious persecution, was a large number of German artificers and amongst them were a number of swordmakers, who settled in different parts of the country. One of these companies of swordmakers found its way into the Derwent Valley and settled at Shotley Bridge. A uniform tradition among the German descendants relates that the first German who fled from the persecution on the Continent, brought with them a Lutheran Minister who used to officiate for them after they settled in Shotley Bridge. This account is not improbable: the severe persecutions then raging, and the conditions of several families having to seek in a foreign land religious liberty are facts strongly presumptive that their minister would accompany them. The more severe the persecutions of people on account of religion, the greater are their exertions and closer their union, and but few statesmen estimate the strength of religious principles. The tradition, however, does not relate how long the Lutheran ministry continued. No vestige of the German priesthood remains. Their line of apostolical succession is certainly broken. At that date a couple of German towns occupied the highest position in the steel industry. These were Smalcald and Solignen. The former is situated in the province of Hesse-Nassau, some fifty miles south east of Cassel, and, with the village of Stahlberg near it, has long been celebrated for the manufacturing and tempering of steel made from excellent ironstone which exists in plenty in the neighbourhood. The latter is a city in the province of the Rhine standing upon the Wiffer, which flows into the Rhine from the East about half way between Dusseldorf and Cologne, and situated about 14 miles south-east of Dusseldorf. This place was celebrated for cutlery manufacture, and especially for its fine Damascene Sword-blades and bayonets.

Tradition says that it was from Solignen that the Shotley Bridge sword makers came to England bringing with them the art of tempering steel which was not thoroughly known in England before their arrival. The business of sword making was an important one in those days and on the outbreak of war against France in 1689, a company of sword cutters was erected by patent in the county of Cumberland and the adjacent counties for making hollow sword blades. A great number of German cutters were employed, and it was to this company of sword cutters that the Shotley Bridge sword makers, who settled in the Derwent Valley within twelve months of its foundation, were connected. The English, it is true, had implements of war, prior to this time and had done good service with them on the continent, but there was a general fault in them. The steel was defective in temper, and upon that quality in the weapon, the issue of the contest often depended. On the establishment of the company of sword cutters, these defects were remedied, and from thenceforth the German sword blades were second to none in the world in temper and execution.

The sword makers on the Derwent took up their residence at Shotley Bridge at the close of 1690, or the beginning of 1691. Before settling at the place they sought for a locality suited to their purpose in several other parts of England, and especially near London, but wanting to conceal the secrets of their trade, and especially that of this excellence in tempering, they left the metropolis, where prying eyes were ever ready to take advantage of every new invention, or the mysteries attached to their production, and came to the North of England, which they considered would be more remote and secluded for their industry. They first examined the banks of the Tyne, but not finding a place to their liking, they next commenced to explore the River Derwent. Under the direction of a guide they traced the winding river from its confluence with the Tyne, to Shotley Bridge, where, finding the water (one of their greatest considerations) particularly soft and suited to their purpose, the presence of excellent ironstone in the neighbouring hills, and the locality a secluded one, they finally settled, and commenced a flourishing industry, which existed for a little over a century. These German artisans were the first to introduce the manufacture of steel in the County of Durham and though their industry is now no more, we have an example of the saying that “history repeats itself” in the presence of the famous works of Consett Iron Company, which overlook the Derwent and which are foremost in the steel industry, with the exception that their products are not for the destruction of mankind. A much earlier date than 1690 has been mistakenly assigned as the date of their' settlement in the Derwent Valley. In 1840 the Rev. John Ryan, who married a descendant of the original settlers, published an interesting little volume, entitled “The History of Shotley Spa” and in it he fixed the date of the arrival of the German Swordmakers nearly a century earlier, from the supposed fact of the name Oley, the name of one of the German families being mentioned in the Ebchester Registers under the date 1628. Unfortunately he made an error in reading the almost illegible entry. He read the entry as, “Ellinor the daughter of Matthius Wrightson Oley was baptised the 11th day of June 1628,” and concluded that the Oleys and Wrightsons had either intermarried or were particular friends at that time, and that if the former, a sufficient time must have elapsed since their arrival to have allowed Matthius to have found matrimonial alliances with natives of the Derwent Valley. This statement, however, falls to the ground on close examination. The correct entry in the Parish Register in question is Ellinor the daughter of Matthius Wrightson Cler., baptised the 11th day of June 1628. The word Cler., being a contraction of Clericus, clerk, or clergyman, as we would now say.

An inscription over the doorway of the Oley cottage in Wood Street, Shotley Bridge, read: -



“The blessing of Heaven gives wealth without care,

Provided that you contribute your share,

Be faithful, also just and true,

And do what is commanded of you.”



A second inscription has been largely defaced by weathering. The first three imperfect lines indicate that the immigrants from the Fatherland came to this country in search of religious freedom and settled at Shotley Bridge, and the last two, though even more mutilated lines, is an invocation of the divine blessing on all who may enter the door.



“The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in,

from this time forth for evermore” - “PSALM cxxi. 8.”



From researches made, Mr. Fawcett found at least ten different German families had settled in the Derwent Valley. They were Bertram, Buske, Groates, Henkels, Moll or Mole, Oley, Shindlebrush, Vintner, Woper and Vooz.

The Bertrams were steel manufacturers and had the forge or steel mill at Blackhall Mill, about three and a half miles further down the Derwent from Shotley Bridge and other places in the Derwent Valley. They intermarried with other local families. The Buskes did not stay long at Shotley Bridge. The Groates were another family who soon left Shotley Bridge. The Moles were sword grinders and their mill stood on the site of the offices of the Co-operative Flour Mill at Shotley Bridge. One of them according to tradition, is stated to have come over from Germany to England covered up in a large cask or tub. Their descendants exist at the present day. The Oleys were sword cutters at Shotley Bridge, and were the principal members of the colony, being large proprietors and employers. They possessed very remarkable skill in the production of swords, and were capable of following the weapon through all its processes, forging, grinding, engraving and polishing up to the hands of the cutter whose duty it was to add the hilt and scabbard. Their descendants also exist at the present day. The Shindlebrushes died shortly after settling at Shotley Bridge. The Vinters were forgemen and were connected with the Bertrams at Blackhall Mill. They seem to have left the district about the middle of the eighteenth century. Some of them intermarried with local families. The Voozes were sword grindes and also traded between Germany and England. At first the swordmakers manufactured their own iron which they obtained from ironstone pits, sunk to the thin bands of ironstone which occur on both sides of the Derwent. Some of these ironstone pits were at Hownsgill and the Delves. Those at the latter were known as Delfts or Delve Moles, hence the present place name. The ironstone was carried from the various pits by pack horses to the various roasting furnaces. One of these old furnaces is on the north side of the Derwent, between Allensford and Shotley Bridge, in the woods opposite Mole House. The shape of this furnace has been hexagonal, narrowing towards the top. The effects of the extreme heat can yet be traced on the glazed stones. A few yards up a steep declivity to the west of the furnace, are the ruined remains of three roasting kilns, where the ironstone appears to have been put through its first process. The shape of the roasting kilns is round, narrowing towards the bottom. The kilns and furnace are generally supposed to have been erected and used by the Bertrams.

A forge also belonging to the Bertrams existed on the north bank of the Derwent, about a mile further down the river, below the old furnace and kilns just named, a little above the High Paper Mill, but on the opposite side of the stream, on a site now occupied by a cottage, and known as the old forge. From some old deeds of the place, containing a transfer of the property in the reign of Queen Anne (1702-1714) we learn that it was then an extensive manufacturing area and included various messuages, tenements, watercourses and dams and having a right of many roads, but no vestiges now remain. The Bertrams also had a forge and Smelt-Mill at Blackhall Mill for the manufacture of steel, when they were associated with the Vintners, another German family. In the woods of Ravenside up Milkwell Burn, on the north side of the Derwent from Blackhall Mill and also in the neighbourhood of Hedley-on-the-Hill, further west are several heaps of iron scoria or slag, the remains of smelting operations, generally attributed to the work of the Shotley Bridge Swordmakers.

In the later years owing to the local ironstone costing too much to work, the Swordmakers purchased the best Swedish iron from Danomora in Smoland, and out of this they produced their steel. The Shotley Bridge sword blades were the best tempered in Britain. The remarkable soft waters of the Derwent, one of the chief things which made the swordmakers settle in the district, were second to none in Europe for tempering steel, except that of the Tagus at Toledo in Spain, which is celebrated throughout the world for the best tempered sword blades, being equal in this respect to the famous sabre blades of Damascus, and the Spanish swordmakers long ago confessed that the only waters in the world equal to those of the Tagus were those of the Derwent, and their only rivals in the art of sword-making were the swordmakers of Shotley Bridge. The Shotley Bridge swords were perfectly formed and equal in finish, flexibility, strength and elegance to the distinguished blades of Damascus and Toledo, and thus in temper and execution, second to none in the world, were decidedly the most valuable in the British market, and they kept their reputation and maintained the very highest prices to the last. The manufacture of swords at Shotley Bridge was more varied than is commonly understood and the following kinds of weapons were made:



Cutto - a cutlass or broad carving sword.

Hanger - a short broad sword incurvated towards the point, or a short sabre shaped cutlass.

Both made for the Navy, and used by seamen when boarding an enemy ship.

Long sword - used by the Army.

Small Hollow Blade.

Slick Sword.

Dirk or Dagger.

Scymiter - a short sword with a convex edge or recurvated point.

Latsin Blade - a two edged sword thirty-two inches in length.



The long swords made at Shotley Bridge, and used in the English Army were of such marvellous temper that the point might be bent and pressed back on the hilt, with the certainty that when released it would become as straight as if it had never been bent.

There was one kind of sword made at Shotley Bridge, called the Hollow Blade, which, it has been widely stated, none in England, but the Shotley Bridge sword-makers could make to perfection, and they required peculiar workmanship.

In the engraving and polishing department, the local swordmakers, however, though excellent, were frequently equalled and sometimes excelled, for they did not regard as much the polish as the temper of their swords, and they were unequalled in substantial qualities. Their swords were made for use and not for show, for the battlefield and not for the drawing room, for soldiers and not for courtiers. Much of, the work of engraving the blades for the swords was done by outsiders amongst those who were sometimes employed in this kind of work was Thomas Bewick, afterwards the celebrated engraver, who was apprenticed to Ralph Beilby, engraver of Gateshead in October 1767, and who himself tells us that amongst the first jobs he was put to was that of “etching sword blades for William and Nicholas Oley, sword manufacturers of Shotley Bridge”.

Another first-rate sword engraver was Robert Wilson, who resided in the neighbourhood of Shotley Bridge, and who was best known as “Witch Wilson,” because of his seemingly supernatural powers and capabilities. He was generally employed by the Oleys to engrave their best ornamental blades. In time competition in the making of swords increased, and the art in tempering steel became no longer a secret. After the close of Napoleon's career as a man of war in 1815, the demands for swords diminished, and in time when the rifle began to take the place of the sword, the once flourishing industry declined, and eventually ceased altogether, after having had a flourishing existence for about a century and a half.

The following notice appeared in the London Gazette in August 1690, “Whereas great industry hath been used for erecting a manufactory for making sword blades at Newcastle, by several able working men, brought over from Germany, which being now brought to perfection, the undertakers thereof have thought fit to settle a warehouse at Mr. Isaac Hadley's, at the Five Beds, in New Street, near Shoreham, London, where callers may be furnished with all sorts of sword blades at reasonable rates”.

Having an abundance of employment and great remuneration the sword makers enjoyed a long continued tide of prosperity. Though their workmen had large wages, their profits were very high, as the demand for their articles was insatiable. Their travelling expenses involved only a journey once a year to London, and they soon acquired considerable property.

William Oley was the person who in 1787 built the cottage called Cutlers Hall, and which has since given a name to the locality and the road. Over the doorway of the house in question was inscribed -



CUTLERS HALL

W. A. 1787



The initials were those of William and Ann Oley. This William Oley died in 1810 aged 73 years and his wife Ann in 1831 aged 94 years, and both are buried at Ebchester. He was a man of property and at his death owned nearly the whole of the village of Shotley Bridge, and the adjoining fields and gardens, which have however, passed into other hands.

This advertisement appeared in the Newcastle Courant, issue of 16th May, 1724



“To be sold, a sword grinding mill, with about eight acres of ground, a very good head of water, situated on Derwent Water in the County of Durham; also a very good house, etc., all now within possession of William Mohil at Shotley Bridge, who will treat with any about the same.”



There were several sword mills at Shotley Bridge. The sword shops of the Oley family stood on either side of the house with the inscription over the door in Wood Street, and there generation after generation carried on a most ingenious and lucrative business. Another stood on the right bank of the Derwent, near the South side of the bridge, and a portion of it was built up in a house still standing, this mill being driven by water from the Derwent. Along the rocks in the bed of this river on the west side of the bridge, just above the pool known as the “Bluther,” are a number of square holes in which stood the timbers which formed a dam to check the water into a mill-race which drove the sword mill. Another sword mill stood on the site of the Shotley Grove Paper Mills. It belonged to the Johnsons, an English family, who had learned the art of sword cutlery from the German Swordmakers, and passed into the hands of the Annandales in 1812, when it was transferred into a Paper Mill after an existence of half a century."Unquote.

[urbanspaceman]

Hey Ibrahiim, you are quite right, downstream not up. I had the map upside down.
Yes, I knew about the Lutheran minister from the research done by the man who curated the permanent display in the Joicey Museum, but he gave no reference to where the info came from; I was going through his notes a couple of weeks ago to try to find out but nothing was forthcoming. Nobody else has ever mentioned it as far as I am aware - until now.
Incidentally, a Shotley Bridge broadsword inscribed Shotl Bridg was auctioned today and the hammer price was £1,300. I had a commission bid in at £1,000 but it went up to 1300 so fast there were obviously some serious buyers on line. This was the only picture.[IMG]

[urbanspaceman]

An interesting note , the colichemarde apparently only was in favor in the civilian sector for a short time, yet it remained a favorite for military officers until nearly the end of the 18th c.
I suspect that the un-shouldered short-sword very quickly predominated in the civilian world, but in military worlds there was always a probability you might be facing a heavy sword and need the colichemarde to tackle it.

[Jim McDougall]

I suspect that the un-shouldered short-sword very quickly predominated in the civilian world, but in military worlds there was always a probability you might be facing a heavy sword and need the colichemarde to tackle it.


Good point Keith......er, forte!! :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

One trick was to grasp the sword at the Forte with the left hand and use the power of both arms to deflect the opponents sword with yours and follow through with the vicious point..piercing probably straight through and causing a certain degree of pain...until an Elastoplast could be applied... :)

[urbanspaceman]

I think that, considering the Oley's substantial empire noted in probate, that they, being the only ones able to produce from stock to finished blade, began to make serious money after c.1730, by which time there were only them and English mill owners left in the village. Also, the Oleys were making and selling anything and everything with a sharp edge: and good domestic and commercial tools were ever more important until Crowley got firmly established but even he had to buy sword-blades from Oley. Crowley boasted, and was probably perfectly honest, that he could supply everything from a pin to an anchor but I suspect that he left the production of sharp edges to Oley.
The Johnsons and the Leatons both had mills that were run by progeny who had been apprenticed to the Germans. Also, I have mentioned before that Hayford supposedly had a mill in SB. I need to ascertain who exactly owned what and when.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

As an interlude I have a description of a Small Sword duel from http://www.hadesign.co.uk/SSA/html/thegraphic.htm ~


Duel with Small Swords
- The Graphic - February 1897

Quote"TOWARDS the end of the seventeenth century, a very significant and important change of sword play came into fashion, and consequent on this the long weighty rapier gave way to the dress small sword with its lighter blade, grip and guard.

The Fronde in France and the Civil War in England had been conducive to much ruffianly bravery, but with a more quiescent state of affairs came a less pugnacious, though at the same time a more effeminate influence over the two nations, and the sword began to be in requisition merely as an ornamental appendage to the dress, though it was not till the reign of Queen Anne that it became what is called the " Small Sword," developing eventually into the perfect Court and duelling sword of the period of George II. and III. , and later still of the School of Angelo, upon which the modern French school of fencing is founded. But though small and unimportant looking, there was still the necessity for making it a deadly weapon on an emergency; hence the evolution of an entirely different system of fence. Owing to the comparative lightness of the new weapon and the much shorter blade, the attack became more rapid, the feint more intricate, and the lunge itself more involved. With the earlier forms of about 1650, it was not possible to execute the same rapid succession of parries and ripostes as are attainable with the modern duelling rapier, which is practically the same as the small sword of the latter part of the eighteenth century. The shape of the blade varied, but the bayonet or triangular form was universal. A shape known as "Colichemarde" obtained great favour from 1730 to 1760 ;Here the forte of the blade was made much broader with the idea that the parry would have greater force. It had, however, the defect of throwing the weight too near the hand, allowing the point to be dangerously high and the lunge in consequence less direct. A notable feature in all swords of this period is the very small size of the shell or protection to the hand, proving how much the science arid finesse of the parry had increased, keeping pace with the lightness and delicacy of the weapon. The introduction of a larger shell in the modern French duelling rapier is due to the fact that now so much play is made to touch the hand or forearm, thereby disabling the opponent and bringing the duel to a close without fatal results. In the days of the small sword the adversary was invariably run through the body, and if death ensued the successful duellist was tried for murder, being acquitted or not according to the circumstances of the case. The pistol duel at the end of the seventeenth century was in France confined to horseback, and in the event of no satisfaction being given by either side the opponents dismounted and continued the contest on foot with their small swords.

The duel given in the illustration took place by the sea. Calais sands were in those days a favourite place for such encounters. In this instance a lunge is made by one of the combatants and successfully avoided by the other, who, suddenly dropping upon one hand in what is called a coup d'aret and straightening his sword-arm, in low seconde, causes the blade of his antagonist to pass harmlessly over him, while his own weapon pierces his adversary's body, the latter in reality killing himself by the impetus of his false lunge. This feint, together with disarming and many other tricks of similar character, were much resorted to in those days when life was often in immediate danger, though in the modern school of fence they are not taught or considered desirable. It would be very interesting to see now if a swordsman of today, in spite of more elaborate science, could hold his own with the subtle cunning and rapid attacks of the duellists of the last century.

A very interesting small-sword duel took place on January 26, I765, between Lord Byron and a Mr. Chaworth. These gentlemen were dining with others at the Star and Garter Tavern in Pall Mall about seven in the evening, when the conversation turned upon the subject of the best manner of preserving game on private estates. Lord Byron's opinion was that the best method was to take no care of it. This drew on an altercation, and after some high words Lord. Byron offered a bet of 100L. that he had more game on a manor of his than Mr. Chaworth had on any belonging to him. Shortly after this altercation Lord Byron left the room, and meeting Mr. Chaworth in the passage stated that he wished to speak with him. He then called a waiter, and asked if there were any room disengaged. The waiter showed them to an unoccupied room and left them with a candle, which was all the light in the apartment except a dull fire. As Mr. Chaworth turned round after shutting the door, he perceived Lord Byron with his sword half drawn, who instantly exclaimed " Draw." Mr. Chaworth immediately complied, and at the first thrust his sword passed through Lord Byron's waistcoat, and he thought he had wounded him, when Lord Byron, shortening his sword, gave him a fatal wound. A struggle then took place between the parties, for they were found grasped in each others arms by the landlord and waiter, who, hearing the noise, hurriedly entered the room, Mr. Chaworth holding his sword in his left hand and Lord Byron having his in his right. A surgeon was immediately sent for, who pronounced the wound mortal, the sword having entered on the left side of the stomach, and, passing obliquely upwards, had made its exit five or six inches higher on the left side of the back. It appears that when Mr. Chaworth's sword passed through the waistcoat of his antagonist, he expressed his apprehension that he had seriously wounded him. Now under such an apprehension it is probable that he was thrown off his guard, when Lord Byron quickly shortened his sword and ran it through his body. Writhing under the agonies of his wound, Mr. Chaworth several times declared that, although he well knew that he was in immediate danger of death, he had rather be in his present situation than live under the misfortune of having killed another person. He also observed that when, after closing the door, he turned round, he, perceived that Lord Byron's sword was half-drawn, and, knowing his man, he drew his own as quickly as he could, and had the first pass at him. The House of Lords found William, Lord Byron, "not guilty of the felony of murder, but of manslaughter," and his lordship, claiming the benefit of the statute of Edward VI., was discharged, paying his fees. The guards, grip, and shells of many of these dress swords were often much ornamented, being richly chased and damascened in inlaid gold and silver, very frequently entirely of silver, as in No.1, which bears the Paris Hall mark of 1745, and sometimes of polished steel as No.2, in which the shell and guard is ornamented with Wedgewood plaques. A shell in No.4 shows the evolution from the cup rapier to the shell of the small sword, the long quillons still remaining, although growing obsolete. The date of this latter is about the end of seventeenth century."Unquote.

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Ibrahiim and thank-you for that excellent article. I recently received the French Second Empire Court Sword made at Klingenthal that I bought at auction (see post 29) and I have to declare it feels truly deadly in the hand. It has an incredibly sharp point and I can understand why it was such an effective weapon. A rake down the back of the hand or along the forearm would be very deep and probably immobilising, which I gather was the ultimate incarnation of the duel.
Byron sounds precisely like the 'Mad, Bad and Dangerous to know' character of Caroline lamb's description; a bit of a 'bounder' in fact, when you consider that William Chaworth was his cousin.[IMG]

[kronckew]

a thrust through the body was usually fatal, given the state of medicine of the times. but not always. a certain american gentleman by the name of james bowie was involved in an altercation with a number of people armed with blades on a sandbar and was run thru the lung and out the other side with a sword cane blade of similar proportions to a small sword, and managed to kill all of them, and survived himself, tho poorly for a while thereafter. hands, arms, legs were preferred first targets as if you thrust into his body, he had a lot of time to thrust into yours before succumbing, disabling him first was better, you could then finish him off at leisure. (there is an artery that runs across the inside of your elbow that, if nicked and left unattended during a scuffle, can bleed you out in a couple minutes, and disabling you a lot sooner. ditto on the vena cava inside your thigh, or the neck veins/arteries. there are also a number of areas where a thrust would miss vital organs completely. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj6Drp7hWhY if you are not squeemish. (he died young after thinking he could swallow a steel needle)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

For a realistic portrayal ... A Duel see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOBTFfHJjV8

[kronckew]

i agree more with matt here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQVrb_cAVfQ

the duellists is a cool movie tho.

see also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlsT9VZyehE

[Mel H]

There has been some discussion here of smallswords and whether any were produced at SB. One of the fascinations for collecting smallswords is the almost infinite variety of hilt designs in existence. From simple iron or brass ones through elegant cut steel and silver, to some which can be described as nothing other than works of art. Many books will show page upon page of hilts that are visual delights but skip over any detailed descriptions or photographs of the blades, leaving the reader to assume that all 'triangular' blades are the same.
While it is true that there is a general similarity in all of them, the colchemarde style being the only distinct variation remarked on by most, it has to be noted that when examining a good selection of blades there are some distintive differences in the methods of forging and grinding.
The nearest ones to an equal triangle are seen the more recent examples which saw something of a revival in the Victorian and later court swords, often seen with cut and studded hilts and worn by diplomats with court dress. The blades on some of these are actualy round at the ricasso and give the impression of being made from a piece of round bar and produced by grinding rather than forging. I have no evidence to support this and would be please to hear if anyone knows more.
Getting back to the period in question, sword blades were trditionaly hammer forged on an anvil, the Hollow ground blade must have required a major change in technical skills, possibly leading to the rolling mill that has been spoken of.
If we look at a cross section of a three sided blade, the sides are not equal, two of the concave sides are smaller than the remaining side which will vary from being almost flat to a noticable concave. Some, on this wider surface, are evenly ground for the full length, others show a definite forge line fuller running down the centre almost to the tip.
Another thought concerns the actual grinding of these blades. Many antique illustrations show huge grinding wheels being used by some unfortunate soul lying on a plank holding the blade against the wheel, producing a near flat surface. A hollow grind of the type seen on smallwords will have an internal radius measured at less than an inch making the normal grinding method impossible, unless of course a large stone could be produced with a narrow, radiused outer edge and the blade offered up in line with the wheel.
All just food for thought.
I tend to ramble on a bit, I'll take and post some photographs soon, to make what I've said here a little more understandable.
M.H.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Mel. I do not have any books relating to small-swords, so I was wondering if you could tell me a few things?
The small-sword popularity appears to have begun in France, was it mid 17thCent.?
Where were the blades coming from back then, as Klingenthal came much later didn't it?
Your collection is of British small-swords right?
Are there any blade manufacturer's marks on them?
When does the earliest example date from?
I understand that, initially, the cross-section of the blade was simply a smaller version of a rapier blade, and that the hollowing began with the Colichemarde; does this mean that the typical three-sided hollowed blade didn't appear until after the Colichemarde or were they appearing simultaneously?
What I'm trying to ascertain is precisely what was everyone looking-for blade-wise when the SB workers arrived, because petitions had been frequent for exclusive rights to produce hollow blades long before 1685.
Hope you don't mind the third degree.:rolleyes:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Colichemarde According to Wikepedia.....The Colichemarde blade configuration is widely thought to have been an invention of Graf von Königsmark, owing to the similarity in pronunciation of their names. However, the first blades of this type date from before the Count's lifetime.

The colichemarde first appeared about 1680 and was popular during the next 40 years at the royal European courts. It was especially popular with the officers of the French and Indian War period. George Washington was presented with one during his inauguration.

The widespread misapprehension that the Colichemarde quickly ceased to be produced after 1720 dates to the opinion given by Sir Richard Burton in his "The Book of the Sword" dating to 1884. However, many securely dated colichemarde swords from as late as the 1770s can be found in collections.

This sword appeared at about the same time as the foil. However the foil was created for practicing fencing at court, while the Colichemarde was created for dueling. It made frequent appearances in the duels of New Orleans. A descendant of the Colichemarde is the épée, a modern fencing weapon.

Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5zsmJRilkg where a couple of video presentations look at various interesting Colichemarde and small sword variations...

[Mel H]

Hello Mel. I do not have any books relating to small-swords, so I was wondering if you could tell me a few things?
The small-sword popularity appears to have begun in France, was it mid 17thCent.?
Where were the blades coming from back then, as Klingenthal came much later didn't it?
Your collection is of British small-swords right?
Are there any blade manufacturer's marks on them?
When does the earliest example date from?
I understand that, initially, the cross-section of the blade was simply a smaller version of a rapier blade, and that the hollowing began with the Colichemarde; does this mean that the typical three-sided hollowed blade didn't appear until after the Colichemarde or were they appearing simultaneously?
What I'm trying to ascertain is precisely what was everyone looking-for blade-wise when the SB workers arrived, because petitions had been frequent for exclusive rights to produce hollow blades long before 1685.
Hope you don't mind the third degree.:rolleyes:

Hi there, I don't mind the third degree, but having said that, I don't consider myself to be an expert, I'm just a keen student of antique arms and armour who's learned a reasonable amount over a lifetime of collecting.
We have to remember that international trade has been around for many centuries, styles and ideas spread more quickly than we realise, some were short lived and others overlapped each other, pining these things down is not simple. The rapier took many forms, evolving for more than two hundred years, from heavy, broad bladed weapons to the familliar slender blades of the late 17th C. I may be proven wrong but I don't think that the hollow ground, three sided form of blade that we see in smallswords was much used for rapiers. In general terms they tend to be of flattened diamond, ovoid or hexagon form.
As the rapier fell out of fashion it transitioned into the smallsword quite quickly, the new style being an effective and deadly weapon weighing a fraction of the earlier 'large' sword. I'm sure that most of the smallswords we see are of continental manufacture, in answer to one of your questions, I have French, German, English and Dutch examples. For some reason most of the smallswords I see, though nicely engraved, do not have any indication of who made them or where and when they were made. If they are marked at all, it is often on the top mount of the scabbard, but parchment scabbards tend to have a shorter lifespan than the swords and are often missing.
Just to make things more interesting, there are other styles of sword mixed in the equasion, pillow sword, scarfe sword, mounting sword (I'm not quite sure where the terms came from), but the earlier smallswords did tend to have flattened blades, the hollow ground ones becoming more prolific in the late 17th / early 18th C.
Generally speaking a better indication of a smallsword's age will be seen in the style of the hilt rather than the blade.
The Colichemarde and slender blades were in use simultaneously, a few years since, I would have answered that they were a later innovation, but have to admit that these days that I'm not sure, as I said earlier, pinning these things down is not simple.
Another thing to remember is that the hollow blade is not confined only to sword blades, the socket bayonet favoured universally for military flintlock firearms used a short three sided hollow blade. The British Brown Bess being the best known example.
M. H.

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you Mel, I appreciate the details and further appreciate the difficulties involved in establishing cut and dried facts.
I now have two questions that go out to everyone...
first: has anyone knowledge of a hollow-bladed sword, of the type we are discussing, with a blade that was made in Britain, and if they do, who made it and when? I'm beginning to suspect that Britain has never produced such hollow blades at any time. As Ibrahiim asked earlier: "has anyone seen a colichemarde/short-sword grinding machine?"
Secondly: as I stated earlier, I have just acquired a Second Empire Court Sword from Klingenthal and spending time playing with it has led me to what must surely be a universally asked question; why did they not put an edge on the blade? It is of the 'one wide', and 'two narrow' hollows cross-section and I cannot see why they didn't sharpen the edges to produce a cutting sword as well as a thrusting sword. It would be very easy to do, and entirely unique style of fighting could have been developed to take advantage of the facility. I'm tempted to have someone put edges on this sword just to experience the capability of it. Even a 'uniform hollows' blade could have been sharpened quite easily.
ps
Does anyone recognise the maker's name on my blade?
[IMG]

[Mel H]

The smallsword, apart from being an expensive fashion accessory was simply a weapon designed to do quick and severe damage from a distance, whether it was for self defence or a duel. The blade no matter how sharp would not have enough weight to make an effective slashing weapon. The only really effective blade for cutting as opposed to hacking is curved one which could be drawn through the cut for maximum effect.
An example of selective use for a sword can be seen in the new cavalry sabre, designed by a committee of experts and used by the British cavalry from 1908 It was a complete departure from any horseman's sword seen before, being straight and narrow with little real cutting edge, the guard was large and the grip shaped to fit the hand with the arm fully extended. it was little more than a hand held lance. All in all an ugly device that was not received well by the users, but declared by many to be the ultimate design for cavalry use.
Mel.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The picture is very blurred but looks like a Klingenthal... Can you reshoot the blade please... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[urbanspaceman]

Yes, very messy, and me an ex pro photographer; sorry about that.[IMG]

[urbanspaceman]

It's Coulaux and Bros, isn't it?

[urbanspaceman]

History of Klingenthal

At the beginning of the 18th century, king Louis XV decided to create a state-controlled sword manufacturing company in order to limit the imports of Solingen blades to France. In 1733, the Manufacture d'Armes Blanches d' Alsace commenced operation with the help of 25 skilled workers from Solingen, Germany. The Alsace province, in East of France, was chosen for the availability of iron mines, forges and woods for charcoal, but also because the local language was similar to German.
In 1768, accommodation for the Director and his staff (artillery officers) was built in a place called Klingenthal (Klingen=blades, thal= valley), the factory became Manufacture de Klingenthal . Under this name, thousands of blades were produced until the end of the 19th century.

Organization

The Manufacture de Klingenthal belonged to the government, but its general management was entrusted to a government-appointed entrepreneur. The entrepreneur operated in a purely fiscal role. His task was to buy the source material (iron ingots, charcoal etc.), pay with his own money the salaries of the workers, and organise the company in order to comply with the contracts of the government. The government then bought the finished products from him, leaving him a profit of about 20%. The plant Director controlled the production for the military contracts. He was an artillery senior officer, appointed for only a few years (2-4 usually), and helped by a staff of around four artillery officers. It was his responsibility to maintain quality control and control of speed of production etc. to fulfil the government contracts. He reported immediately to the army, and earned no more than his officer's salary.
The Revisers and Controllers were highly skilled workers in charge of the training of the other workers and the quality control of blades and swords for the military contracts. From 1808 onwards, they were considered members of the artillery corps.

There is no doubt that COULAUX was the best-known entrepreneur of Klingenthal. The Coulaux brothers applied for the job of entrepreneur in February 1801 and the family remained in charge of the management of the Manufacture de Klingenthal until the firm ceased business in 1962.

[urbanspaceman]

Can we assume from this that there was a three-wheel milling machine at Klingenthal?

[urbanspaceman]

Johann Dietrich Benninghaus,
Mathias Michael Schmid,
Caspar Engels
Arnold Schmidt,
Wilhelm Kind,
Abraham Wundes,
Clemens Evertz
Andreas Aschauer,
Abraham Eichhorn,
Wilhelm Kind
Abraham DEGARD (Teegarten)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Interesting...

Here is a colichemarde from London... It is stamped on the knuckleguard but could be an imported blade I suppose...See https://www.antique-swords.eu/silver-hilted-english-smallsword-colichemarde.html

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Klingenthal grinders. SEE http://www.benjaminarms.com/research/famous-cutlery-swordmaking-cities/klingenthal/

[urbanspaceman]

When you look at the history of Klingenthal what becomes immediately apparent is that Shotley Bridge could have survived alongside Birmingham but it didn't. The reasons for its demise are up ahead on my 'to do' list.

[urbanspaceman]

Fantastic photo Ibrahiim.

[urbanspaceman]

They are all tri-form hollow blades they are holding.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi there, I don't mind the third degree, but having said that, I don't consider myself to be an expert, I'm just a keen student of antique arms and armour who's learned a reasonable amount over a lifetime of collecting.
We have to remember that international trade has been around for many centuries, styles and ideas spread more quickly than we realise, some were short lived and others overlapped each other, pining these things down is not simple. The rapier took many forms, evolving for more than two hundred years, from heavy, broad bladed weapons to the familliar slender blades of the late 17th C. I may be proven wrong but I don't think that the hollow ground, three sided form of blade that we see in smallswords was much used for rapiers. In general terms they tend to be of flattened diamond, ovoid or hexagon form.
As the rapier fell out of fashion it transitioned into the smallsword quite quickly, the new style being an effective and deadly weapon weighing a fraction of the earlier 'large' sword. I'm sure that most of the smallswords we see are of continental manufacture, in answer to one of your questions, I have French, German, English and Dutch examples. For some reason most of the smallswords I see, though nicely engraved, do not have any indication of who made them or where and when they were made. If they are marked at all, it is often on the top mount of the scabbard, but parchment scabbards tend to have a shorter lifespan than the swords and are often missing.
Just to make things more interesting, there are other styles of sword mixed in the equasion, pillow sword, scarfe sword, mounting sword (I'm not quite sure where the terms came from), but the earlier smallswords did tend to have flattened blades, the hollow ground ones becoming more prolific in the late 17th / early 18th C.
Generally speaking a better indication of a smallsword's age will be seen in the style of the hilt rather than the blade.
The Colichemarde and slender blades were in use simultaneously, a few years since, I would have answered that they were a later innovation, but have to admit that these days that I'm not sure, as I said earlier, pinning these things down is not simple.
Another thing to remember is that the hollow blade is not confined only to sword blades, the socket bayonet favoured universally for military flintlock firearms used a short three sided hollow blade. The British Brown Bess being the best known example.
M. H.

Salaams Mel~ On the point (scuse pun) about the Brown Bess Bayonet! When the soldier’s musket was empty he relied on the bayonet, which had a sharp, triangular section blade of about 44cm. British bayonet charges were greatly feared by enemy troops. The soldiers were very keen to engage the enemy with their bayonets and often thought that they should be allowed to ‘give them the Brummagen’. (Brummagen is a slang name for Birmingham where many bayonets were made.

[Mel H]

They are all tri-form hollow blades they are holding.

Not too sure about that, they're a little wide toward the tips they could be straight infantry sword blades that would fit better with the date.
Mel.

[kronckew]

Not too sure about that, they're a little wide toward the tips they could be straight infantry sword blades that would fit better with the date.
Mel.

ditto. they look like std. fullered blades, smallswords were well out of fashion by the time of the photo.

[urbanspaceman]

Not too sure about that, they're a little wide toward the tips they could be straight infantry sword blades that would fit better with the date.
Mel.
Yes, that was why I mentioned it. I've taken a closer look on my PC rather than my tablet and you are both correct: not small-swords.
Great picture though.

[Hotspur]

They are all tri-form hollow blades they are holding.I don't think they are. Rather they are blades for the standard 1882 infantry swords with the offset fullers (cannelure) which became apparent mid 19th century. Note the fuller terminating before the foible. The blades are lenticular rather than concave. The appearance in the photo deceived by lighting and luster.

My colonial fantastique circa 1870 with a Coulaux/Klingenthal blade.

Cheers
GC

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Mr Hotspur, or shall I call you Harry. Yes, once I viewed the photo on my PC rather than my tablet I realised they were not small-swords. The reason I commented was it seemed wrong given the date.
How come Klingenthal survived and Shotley Bridge didn't? They were both Solingen workers abroad. Could it simply be the addition of quality blades from Birmingham that made the difference?
I'm very impressed with my 'hollow-blade' court sword from the Coulaux Brothers: it's a superb blade.

[urbanspaceman]

I took note of what you said regarding the off-set fullers; I'm a complete novice in the blade world so they are certainly unlike anything I've seen before.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Perhaps a number of factors not least the weight of the French Government behind the Kingenthal operation whist Shotley was in decline and workers were being absorbed abroad and into the Birmingham sector. Klingenthal was also a lot closer to Solingen which by comparison to the Shotley concern was massive. Expert grinders and sword makers were close to hand whilst at Shotley they were leaving..as business dwindled.

[Jim McDougall]

Very well noted Ibrahim! As you note Klingenthal was very much government backed, and Solingen was actually pretty much 'overpopulated' with their becoming more commercialized and exporting widely.
Most importantly, as you have said, Birmingham was becoming ever more industrially oriented and determined to keep their market share over Solingen. No doubt the Shotley Bridge workers and demand went to the Birmingham and London area, much as we have seen with names like Mole.

Glen, great to see you here!!! You're an encyclopedia on the swords of these periods!

[Mel H]

Very well noted Ibrahim! As you note Klingenthal was very much government backed, and Solingen was actually pretty much 'overpopulated' with their becoming more commercialized and exporting widely.
Most importantly, as you have said, Birmingham was becoming ever more industrially oriented and determined to keep their market share over Solingen. No doubt the Shotley Bridge workers and demand went to the Birmingham and London area, much as we have seen with names like Mole.

Glen, great to see you here!!! You're an encyclopedia on the swords of these periods!

It has to be said that here in the U.K. where matters of government and industry are discussed, the North / South divide is usually introduced into the equation. I'm sure that a couple of centuries since, a small community of tradesmen in some unheard of corner of England, two hundred and fifty miles from the Capital would certainly not have much going in their favour.
Many people 'up here' would quickly add that not much has changed, but that's another story.
Mel.

[fernando]

... Many people 'up here' would quickly add that not much has changed, but that's another story...
Definitely another story, Mel !

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

See http://www.klingenthal.fr/anglais_2_a.htm for an interesting timescale at Klingenthal. :shrug:

[urbanspaceman]

Hey Jim, sorry to ruin a distinctly glossy sheen on the Shotley Bridge image but there is definitely no connection between Mohll of Shotley Bridge and Mole of Birmingham. It was Robert Wilkinson-Latham's book 'The Swords and Records of Robert Mole and Sons (from 2008) where he declared the sad news. Apparently it was a genealogical trace-back from the Moles of Birmingham, and forward from Mohll of SB, and no connection was found. I have to say that the dates never lined up anyway as Mohll sold his entire works to Oley in 1724.
Here is an extract from an interesting article, that Ibrahiim has mentioned before, that tells of The Guild of the Running Fox:
.....Wilkinson Sword – the crossed swords logo of that company is believed to have come from the emblem of the “Guild of the Running Fox” – the Shotley Bridge sword makers' guild. The few remaining clues left are the Crown and Crossed Swords pub (originally owned by the Oleys), Cutlers Hall (the guild meeting place, now a private house) and the crossed swords on the old logo of the Shotley Bridge Hospital.
That's a great resource on Klingenthal Ibrahiim, thank-you.
Re. Klingenthal: back then, Birmingham was the 'Second City of the Empire'; Shotley Bridge had no chance really, once the Solingen secrets had migrated to Birmingham.
I haven't looked at Birmingham's early sword-making history: does anyone know of a good concise book on the subject? Or even just a comprehensive article. Mel?

[urbanspaceman]

I am now firmly convinced that the symbol of the bushy-tailed running fox (that - locally - has long been associated with Shotley Bridge) was started by Oley when the guild was established.
What I really want to find out is: was there, in-fact, any connection with Birmingham at any time, now we know it wasn't Mohll?

[urbanspaceman]

It would appear that once Huntsman invented his 'crucible steel' method in 1740, that the secrets of forging sword blades would not be far behind. It looks like Thomas Gill was in at the start (1783) probably because he was a watch and clock maker, the same as Huntsman but also because of his huge manufactory.
This is an extract from Bezdek's book 'The Swords and Swordmakers of England and Scotland'.

In 1783, the Earl of Surrey (a member of the Treasury Board) sent a letter to a Mr. Eyre of the town council of Sheffield, informing him of a petition by the London sword sellers (cutlers) under consideration to allow German sword blades into England duty free. (The reason was that English blade makers could not provide quality sword blades at a reasonable price.) The earl wanted sword blade quality and price information from Eyre on Sheffield makers.
• Since few sword blades were being made at Sheffield, Mr. Eyre sent a copy to Thomas Gill of Birmingham.
Gill sent a letter to the Treasury Board, saying he could make sword blades of equal quality to German blades.
In 1786 following up a demand from the east India Company for 10,000 cavalry swords,
he sent 2,650 blades; and subjecting them to the Matthew Boulton tests only four were rejected. = 0.15%
Harvey: 1,700 and 42 rejected. = 2.4%
Woolley: 1,000 and 19 rejected. = 1.9%
Runkel: 1,400 and 28 rejected. = 2%

I would say that was pretty good going for a relative novice in competition with German blades.
Please correct me if I am in error anywhere here because I am, as you know, a novice on this subject.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

RUNKEL: See https://www.mq.edu.au/macquarie-archive/lema/sword/runkel.html

Quote"RUNKEL, Johann Justus (c1751–1808)
One of the most important London merchants dealing in Solingen blades was the sword cutler Johann Justus Runkel. His trading premises were located at 8 Tookes Court, Holborn and he was a member of the Cutler's Company (the trade guild), though his business was mainly importation – blades, fully made up swords, and even unmanufactured steel. In the period 1795–1808 he was probably the most important London merchant dealing in Solingen blades."Unquote.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Harvey; Example of Sword blade mark. ...A British Militia Sword - maker Samuel Harvey (no scabbard) Marked to Rutland Militia. A nice militia sword 28'' polished curved blade, once polished, but now dark. A few lightly pitted areas, but the blade is pretty good. Maker marked on both sides with a running wolf and SH (Samuel Harvey - swordsmith in Birmingham 1730-1748) Brass heart-shaped hilt, with a turned down short quillon. Wooden handle, round pommel.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The following website seeks details on a number of our suspects viz Gill, Harvey, Deakin, Woolley ~http://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/gill-harvey-deakin-woolley.11996/

[Mel H]

Harvey; Example of Sword blade mark. ...A British Militia Sword - maker Samuel Harvey (no scabbard) Marked to Rutland Militia. A nice militia sword 28'' polished curved blade, once polished, but now dark. A few lightly pitted areas, but the blade is pretty good. Maker marked on both sides with a running wolf and SH (Samuel Harvey - swordsmith in Birmingham 1730-1748) Brass heart-shaped hilt, with a turned down short quillon. Wooden handle, round pommel.

Thank you Ibrahiim another nice mark for my collection, I collected together a picture of every Shotley Bridge name stamping or fox of any type that I saw, in the flesh, as it were, or from books or catalogues, for more than twenty years. I had over sixty different ones and unfortunately lost them all in a hard disc crash a couple of years since. No ones fault but my own, we all know the risks we take in not backing up. I've started again and will keep at it.
I had pictures that showed only the words, sometimes full spellings, sometimes abbreviated and occasionally, together with straight line 'wolf'. they tended to be earlier swords. I can not remember seeing a named one that had a bushy tailed fox. Maybe they wanted to show a sign of quality without giving away the name of the place that they had taken refuge.
One of the things that I remember was that the SH in the Harvey ones was not always in the same place within the body of the fox, which would indicate that the fox may have been stamped onto the blade first then the letters added. It has to be considered that his blades may have been made at Shotley Bridge and stamped there with the trademark together with the additional SH letters, as part of the contract.
Just food for thought.
Having said all of that I'm sure that over the time they were operating there they must have produced a large amount which would mean that they are not as rare as we think they are, we just simply don't recognise them because many were never marked.
Mel.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank you Ibrahiim another nice mark for my collection, I collected together a picture of every Shotley Bridge name stamping or fox of any type that I saw, in the flesh, as it were, or from books or catalogues, for more than twenty years. I had over sixty different ones and unfortunately lost them all in a hard disc crash a couple of years since. No ones fault but my own, we all know the risks we take in not backing up. I've started again and will keep at it.
I had pictures that showed only the words, sometimes full spellings, sometimes abbreviated and occasionally, together with straight line 'wolf'. they tended to be earlier swords. I can not remember seeing a named one that had a bushy tailed fox. Maybe they wanted to show a sign of quality without giving away the name of the place that they had taken refuge.
One of the things that I remember was that the SH in the Harvey ones was not always in the same place within the body of the fox, which would indicate that the fox may have been stamped onto the blade first then the letters added. It has to be considered that his blades may have been made at Shotley Bridge and stamped there with the trademark together with the additional SH letters, as part of the contract.
Just food for thought.
Having said all of that I'm sure that over the time they were operating there they must have produced a large amount which would mean that they are not as rare as we think they are, we just simply don't recognise them because many were never marked.
Mel.

Mel...Maybe the running Fox never appeared on Shotley swords. Notwithstanding the name given in some quarters ...and reiterated by me ...and noted by Kieth...The Guild of the Running Fox:
.....Wilkinson Sword – the crossed swords logo of that company is believed to have come from the emblem of the “Guild of the Running Fox” – the Shotley Bridge sword makers' guild. The few remaining clues left are the Crown and Crossed Swords pub (originally owned by the Oleys), Cutlers Hall (the guild meeting place, now a private house) and the crossed swords on the old logo of the Shotley Bridge Hospital.
It never stated and I believe never meant to associate bushey fox tails on blades by this guild...but fits in with the Wilkinson crown and crossed swords of course...

But was this a guild that placed bushy tail foxes on blades...? I suspect not...and since none have been found ? What did that mean? Did it perhaps mean that the so called running fox of Shotley was in fact the wolf of Passau...? and that the running Fox wasn't being used at Shotley... but the Passau Wolf was...because the sword makers were all Solingen people...When Birmingham kicked in they used the Bushey tail Fox.... often if not all done by SH Samuel Harvey in Birmingham. Birmingham is much nearer Stratford than Shotley Bridge is... and it was W. Shakespeare who noted the Fox sword in his plays...and where did he live? Henley Street, Stratford-upon-Avon ...but anyway he had a house in London as well. Surely if Shotley had been turning out bushey tailed fox swords there would be loads of them about... There aren't any... I think I have only seen one probably spuriously applied..

[urbanspaceman]

This was the sale that began to convince me (see image); I called the auctioneer and asked him how he knew it was an Oley blade and he said the vendor had come from nearby SB and had personal experience of its provenance. The bushy tailed fox is obvious.
It also matches the style of sword Nicholas Oley is seen holding that was his grandfather's final sword (i.e. c.1830) so we know Oley was making this style of sword in the 1800s.[IMG]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Kieth ~ Some caution here...I suspect the auctioneer is being frugal with the truth of the matter...and anyone who says he had some personal experience...what does that mean?... is implying a whole lot...if it is to be believed. The sword may be vaguely similar in structure to the black and white picture but is it absolute proof ? It's a difficult one... Can someone show another Shotley Bridge sword with a bushy tail Fox on it... ? If they were using that motif there should be hundreds or thousands out there...and there are none to my knowledge.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I would venture further that there is a mix up with the Guild of the Running Fox and the apparent use of a Crown and Crossed Sword seen on Wilkinson Swords, the bushy tail Fox emblem..and the Passau Wolf form.

In my view the animal placed by Shotley swordmakers was the Wolf. The same as the Wolf of Passau.

The Bushey Tail Fox emblem was I suspect only put by one swordmaker.. SH Samuel Harvey in Birmingham.


.

[urbanspaceman]

This may be a stupid question to the cognoscenti, but I confess to being a novice as you should know by now, so here goes:
Solingen apparently had the famous 'hollow' grinding machine causing much unrest in the 1680s; has anyone seen a hollow-blade/colichmarde marked from Solingen.
This was before Klingenthal and before Shotley Bridge; who else could be supplying the French? Were the blades from Solingen going to France signed in any way?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here is an example of the many swords mistakenly presented as from Shotley... In this case said to have been; A scarce late 17th Century Shotley Bridge sword, with 33 1/2in. blade and three-quarter length fuller bearing the Running Wolf mark with the initials `SH` incorporated, brass knuckle guard and wire-bound shark skin grip, 40in. long overall; contained in a modern mahogany presentation case. ~ But a more spurious description there can hardly be ...since this is a Samuel Harvey Birmingham sword. The so called running wolf in this case likely to be a Bushy Tail Fox! with the initials SH inside that.

Samuel Harvey (born 1698) who was making swords between 1748 until his death in 1778 his mark was the running fox which can usually be clearly seen on both sides of the blade. The family business was continued by his son and grandson of the same name, the last of which died in 1810.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This may be a stupid question to the cognoscenti, but I confess to being a novice as you should know by now, so here goes:
Solingen apparently had the famous 'hollow' grinding machine causing much unrest in the 1680s; has anyone seen a hollow-blade/colichmarde marked from Solingen.
This was before Klingenthal and before Shotley Bridge; who else could be supplying the French? Were the blades from Solingen going to France signed in any way?

Salaams Kieth,
See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16753

The whole thread is less than a page but is important reading. There is another example at #22 on that thread.. Clearly Solingen were exporting to France swords for refinishing but the essential German data was included on the blades.

Obviously the German sword makers of Solingen were confident that their Colichemarde blade machines could not be copied and in this regard they appear to have been right.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Regarding Samuel Harvey and at http://doczz.net/doc/617698/british-naval-edged-weapons%E2%80%94an-overview It is noted that Samuel Harvey had a son Samuel Jr. who continued the business til 1795 viz;

Quote"Some research with cutlasses having viewer’s
marks and manufacturers names also enables one to generally identify the supplier according to the viewer mark.
Plate 29 on reference shows the hilts for three of these cutlasses.
The one on the left is early and without a viewers mark indicating it predates 1788. The blade has a spear point and is 28
1/2 inches long and 1 3/16 inch wide. It is marked with a
running fox and Harvey on the reverse and a different fox
like mark on the British. The iron hilt is solid (no seam), its
disks are essentially round, and the turned down quillon is
relatively wide. Samuel Harvey Sr. was a Birmingham sword
maker that provided cutlasses to the Royal Navy from 1748
to 1778 and his son, Samuel Jr. continued through 1795.
The absence of viewer marks would indicate that Harvey Sr,
made this cutlass.
The middle one is a later version of a similar cutlass.
The blade is similar but slightly shorter—27 1/2 inches long
and 1 1/4 inch wide. It is marked with a Crown/4 viewers
mark, and a running fox with initials (undecipherable) on
the guard. There are also undecipherable marks on the blade
tip. The disks are oblong, the iron hilt has a seam, and the
turned down quillon is relatively narrow. The viewer’s mark
indicates this cutlass was supplied by Gill, another
Birmingham supplier (1783–1803)"Unquote.

[urbanspaceman]

Salaams Kieth,
Obviously the German sword makers of Solingen were confident that their Colichemarde blade machines could not be copied and in this regard they appear to have been right.

Thank-you Ibrahiim, that is exactly what I was looking for.
So, my questions now are these: if such swords exist i.e. the ones finished in France from Solingen blades, and are relatively easy to locate, where are the British equivalents?
While I am inclined to agree with the apparent singularity of the grinding mill, I cannot understand why applications for patents were attempted prior to 1685, if no-one here in Britain had 'the machine'. Unless they thought they could either make one... or procure one.
And why not set-up shop anyway? If no-one else had a machine, they didn't need a patent, other than to protect themselves from Solingen imports. There's something fishy about this whole business. It sounds to me like they were attempting to corner the market on Solingen hollow-blade imports, not make the blades themselves.
If anyone, prepared to pay or smuggle, could nip over to Rotterdam and pick up a chest of hollow blades, then only the smiths in Solingen and the finishers here were going to profit. The patent applications were from blade-smiths and grinders, hence my suspicions.

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you again Ibrahiim. The article covering cutlasses was very interesting as it mentioned the relationship between the Viewer's Mark and the blade maker.

This is especially interesting, as I was given to understand (by an unremembered dealer - probably the one trying to sell me a Samuel Harvey as a Shotley Bridge sword) that the number beneath the crown was deliberately kept un-attributed in order to protect the Viewer from corruption.

So, it can be established from the Viewer's number where the blade (or sword???) was made and by whom. How does one do that? Do anyone know?

Incidentally: I was told about an aspect of my blade that I had noticed but not questioned, and that was its 'scarf weld' near the hilt. Does that have any maker significance that anyone is aware of?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank-you Ibrahiim, that is exactly what I was looking for.
So, my questions now are these: if such swords exist i.e. the ones finished in France from Solingen blades, and are relatively easy to locate, where are the British equivalents?
While I am inclined to agree with the apparent singularity of the grinding mill, I cannot understand why applications for patents were attempted prior to 1685, if no-one here in Britain had 'the machine'. Unless they thought they could either make one... or procure one.
And why not set-up shop anyway? If no-one else had a machine, they didn't need a patent, other than to protect themselves from Solingen imports. There's something fishy about this whole business. It sounds to me like they were attempting to corner the market on Solingen hollow-blade imports, not make the blades themselves.
If anyone, prepared to pay or smuggle, could nip over to Rotterdam and pick up a chest of hollow blades, then only the smiths in Solingen and the finishers here were going to profit. The patent applications were from blade-smiths and grinders, hence my suspicions.

This is a good point. Where was the money in colichemarde swords? In the blade or in the adornment? So there was a sort of dual profit but more being made on the fancy hilt and scabbard than on the blade perhaps? The London sword makers/finishers were often ex Solingen people and must have had a hand in this subterfuge...No one was making colichimarde blades in England... but they were fitting them up with gold and silver hilts and fancy scabbards..Swords were being sold not only by sword smiths but by a host of Gentlemans outfitters in the city...I think that is the point about these weapons... :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here is a most puzzling blade mark... This not only does not look like the average Fox...more like a dog... and H ?? Is this Hounslow??

https://myarmoury.com/feature_engswords.html whilst a thorough description is noted of Hounslow Swords nothing is mentioned about the strike mark of an H inside a fox .

[CutlassCollector]

Thank-you again Ibrahiim. The article covering cutlasses was very interesting as it mentioned the relationship between the Viewer's Mark and the blade maker.

This is especially interesting, as I was given to understand (by an unremembered dealer - probably the one trying to sell me a Samuel Harvey as a Shotley Bridge sword) that the number beneath the crown was deliberately kept un-attributed in order to protect the Viewer from corruption.

So, it can be established from the Viewer's number where the blade (or sword???) was made and by whom. How does one do that? Do anyone know?

Incidentally: I was told about an aspect of my blade that I had noticed but not questioned, and that was its 'scarf weld' near the hilt. Does that have any maker significance that anyone is aware of?

Hi,

'Swords for Sea Service' states that in 1788 Joseph Witten made four each of the viewers marks - a crown over 1, 3, 4, 6, and 8.
The National Maritime museum have associated the viewers marks with particular makers as they have examples of blades marked also with the manufacturer. That does not preclude the mark being used by another company. They also have identified a crown over 2.

Redell and Bate 2
Woolley 3
Gill 4
Osborn 8
Tatham and Egg 8

So although not conclusive to identifying an otherwise unmarked blade they are another piece of information and also date the blade to between 1788 and 1815 when their use ended.

I have seen many cutlasses with scarf welds near the hilt sometimes clearly visible while others are almost imperceptible. I do not think this relates to any particular manufacturer.
There is a theory that the hilt end is iron to help absorb the shock of impact.
This is hard to prove as there is no good - non intrusive - way to distinguish between iron and steel.

Regards, CC

[urbanspaceman]

Would smiths weld short hunting sword blades to new tangs to benefit from a high quality blade on a cutlass?
I've been told it was a question of making the high grade metal go further as it was not needed up at that end of the sword; any comments?

Surely all that is needed to establish the materials involved is a few file shavings from the edge of the blade; the back being the most acceptable. Any metallurgists out there want samples from my blade - just ask and I'll happily file off a few grains.

I understood that Samuel Harvey used an H as well as SH.
I think there was a WH too: as yet unattributed I believe.

I've tracked down and contacted the current owner of Danby Castle (it's the same family since Edward the Confessor) who has indicated the present whereabouts of the chest of SB swords discovered in a Priest Hole back in 1855 and said to have been destined for the Jacobite cause. I'm on my way to view them soon and salivating.

Thank-you CC, those marks and names are very useful; but - sorry: who is Joseph Witten?
My hanger is marked with a crown over a 9, but I suspect it was put on the blade when it was re-hilted, as the steel in the base of the stamp is brighter than the rest of the blade. Of course, it's stamped onto the hilt end of the scarf weld so... ???

Any military historians out there know where and when 2nd Battalions appeared in the ranks of British Militia? My hilt is marked S d B.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Kieth, Indeed there is a further puzzle inside this conundrum with the appearance of a W HARVEY ..Below. No Fox there however. Was this a miss strike? Was it done at the same time because Harvey also appeared on its own but with no initial see below...in several formats. ? I will try to address that in my next post...

The point about the H is that it is said to be a Hounslow mark. The confusion is underlined by it appearing inside an animal which looks more like a Labrador than a Fox... :) I have only seen one of these. Harvey senior had a son also named Samuel... and Samuel Jr had a son. Both were in Swords but I cannot find the grandsons name...was it also Samuel?

Below are various Harvey blade strikes...plus some randomly applied Passau Wolf and one from Solingen.There is an apparent Shotley sword with a Passau Wolf...There is an H inside a fox? There's an empty Fox. There is an altered SH made to look like SB...for whatever reason and the odd W HARVEY.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The only W Harvey I can find is as follows below
however some doubts were cast upon it because of its apparent date of manufacture about 1840...however the firm had been operational since 1820 ! I believe therefor putting this mark W HARVEY in range.

However... things never being so simple ...especially on this subject please see http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Brittish-Military-Swords-18th-Century-B062_Darling1.pdf

Where there is a sword with the stamp W HARVEY ...used 60 years before W Harvey came to be as a sword maker ...with his mark on the blade... very odd. However are we looking at a rehilted later blade ?

[urbanspaceman]

Has anyone ever come across a Hounslow blade with a Fox or Wolf mark?
It seems odd that Solingen smiths in Hounslow didn't use the Passau wolf-mark but, allegedly, Shotley Bridge did.
I think this issue is beginning to point to the blades with the wolf as being smuggled in, then stamped Shotle Bridg to deflect away suspicion from the crime.
There's a lot of time and effort involved in applying all these marks.
I'm hoping my inspection of bulk collections of Shotley Bridge battlefield swords in the very near future will help to establish some acceptable facts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Has anyone ever come across a Hounslow blade with a Fox or Wolf mark?
It seems odd that Solingen smiths in Hounslow didn't use the Passau wolf-mark but, allegedly, Shotley Bridge did.
I think this issue is beginning to point to the blades with the wolf as being smuggled in, then stamped Shotle Bridg to deflect away suspicion from the crime.
There's a lot of time and effort involved in applying all these marks.
I'm hoping my inspection of bulk collections of Shotley Bridge battlefield swords in the very near future will help to establish some acceptable facts.


Salaams Kieth ~ It will be interesting to see this group of blades you speak of... The only fox I saw said to be Hounslow ...and with an H in it... is above at #206 last photo, though it is a picture repeated many times around the web...but its the only one I have ever seen.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Ibrahiim. Does the sword with that alleged Hounslow mark tally with the date of Hounslow production? Somewhere down the line (in my case a very short line) I read an emphatic declaration that Hounslow never used such a mark. I thought that "Me Fecit", or something of the sort, was used when wishing to identify a Hounslow worker. I still keep coming back to this 'time and effort' issue of marking swords: if you are paid to produce as many blades as possible in as short a time as possible, for battlefield weapons, then I would have thought a single, simple tang stamp, or such, was the best you would consider. If you were producing something for a London cutler to retail then the prestige of the workmanship warranted the work involved in sophisticated emblems.
I will know more when I've surveyed the armouries of some of our castles up here. We have a lot! This was not a comfortable place to retire-to for most of its history. I grew up on a 1930s built street that had, until 1932, a castle at both ends, with a provenance dating back to pre. Norman times in one case, and Norman in another (that one is still in existence) . Dig down anywhere round there and you would probably find a Viking sword eventually. But I digress...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Not quite since Me Fecit or made in...was used in Solingen as well... and in Hounslow..See


https://stmargarets.london/archives/2014/03/hounslow_swords.html

However, you will see the same animal with an H in it on the above site... It appears repeated all over the web but I have never seen another.

Other Me Fecit examples ~ 'PETER BRABENDER ME FECIT IN SOLINGEN'

"CLEMENS HORN ME FECIT SOLINGEN.

“JOSEPH JENCKES ME FECIT HOUNSLO.

An English Basket shown below is from Hounslow with ME FECIT HOUNSLO on the blade.

[urbanspaceman]

I was not associating 'me fecit' exclusively with Hounslow, merely that many verified examples had that marking - or the bunch of grapes; and, as you said: the 'H in the fox' is simply not seen other than in that one example. Again, I am curious to know whether the sword relates to the chronology of the Hounslow industry; do we know what the rest of it looks like?

That 'H in the fox' appears to be quite singular - despite its ubiquity (no oxymoron intended); I really find it hard to associate it with Hounslow though, far more realistic to assign it to Harvey in Birmingham, given the subsequent development by SH. Are there no Birmingham industry experts reading this who could shed light on the development of the mark by WH and/or SH?

A curious comment at the end of the St Margaret's article Ibrahiim: I've not seen mention of the business of the rolling-mill (or roll forge) patent taken over to Solingen to WKC, other than the time I referenced and questioned it earlier this year.
I said at that time, even Andre Wilms did not enlighten me; and I've not had any response to the question I pointedly posted in this thread or from the Solingen Blade Museum.

You know, when you think that we are knee-deep in castles in this country, and I know Alnwick - as an example - has huge collections of armour, I don't understand why a consensus has not been made by now of who has what - where. Anyone out there, of retirement age or independent means, fancy such an engrossing and immortalising endeavour?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Kieth~Regarding the above and #207. Yes it seems a huge raveled up mix of incredible puzzles, lies and deceit...I think a lot of it was done to throw the opposition...Misinformation etc

On #207 I think my wild guess may hold some water however, in that the only way W HARVEY marked blade could appear on a hilt many decades its junior (if that is a W Harvey that is) Is because it is a rehilt. Samuel Harvey had gone bankrupt ...and the firm was taken over by his son Samuel (same Christian name) then there was this appearance of the W Harvey artwork clearly indicating that who ever W Harvey was ...he was into swords and in Birmingham. Possibly the son of the second S Harvey...untraceable.

[urbanspaceman]

I'm coming to a very definite conclusion here, and I don't know what you cognoscenti will make of it - but here goes: I don't think the Passau wolf symbol was ever used outside of Germany. I think Bernard Stone brought in blades from Solingen to meet huge demand, and I think Mohll did the same thing up in Shotley Bridge.
Has anyone seen a Hounslow marking AND the Passau wolf together? I am convinced that the SB version was done to deflect suspicion away from Mohll's smuggling; I don't know about Stone.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I'm coming to a very definite conclusion here, and I don't know what you cognoscenti will make of it - but here goes: I don't think the Passau wolf symbol was ever used outside of Germany. I think Bernard Stone brought in blades from Solingen to meet huge demand, and I think Mohll did the same thing up in Shotley Bridge.
Has anyone seen a Hounslow marking AND the Passau wolf together? I am convinced that the SB version was done to deflect suspicion away from Mohll's smuggling; I don't know about Stone.


SEE your #35 on Benjamin Stone...who appears to have been a major importer of European blades into London viz; think the presence of the wolf/fox on Hounslow swords may be due to Benjamin Stone, a London Cutler and Freeman, who, from 1613 till 1642, was buying blades from everyone: including Solingen, Passau, Venice, Milan, Toledo and finally – of course – Hounslow; then selling the finished swords primarily to the Board of Ordnance.
For example: in June 1628 he delivered 800 swords to the Board of Ordnance: 350 Italian blades and 450 Solingen; all of these swords had basket hilts.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Ibrahiim. Yes, indeed I did mean BENJAMIN Stone.
I am growing accustomed to the possibility that the Passau wolf emblem was never used outside of Germany. I know there is puzzle-meant and contention as to how it came to be used by Solingen - when they were in competition with Passau and also on the other side of the country. Perhaps someone knows the answer to that. Maybe I will get an answer when I visit Solingen. It certainly puts a very different complexion on the business of SB markings. I'm meeting with the SB Village Trust tomorrow, who apparently hold much of the village's archives; I'm hoping there are some answers in there.

[urbanspaceman]

I'm posting a link to a pdf of a chapter from Richard.D.Bezdek's book: Swords and Swordmakers of England and Scotland. I've exclaimed before just what a monumental work this is; and here is another example of that splendid endeavour. It is the history of swordmaking at Hounslow, and by extension Oxford. Apart from giving a full account of Benjamin Stone's significant achievements, it also introduces names that would become important in the Shotley Bridge venture. It further indicates the applications of petitions filed prior to Shotley Bridge for the exclusive right to manufacture hollow sword-blades, by the patented grinding process, at Hounslow, which is very significant in my opinion.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Keith ~ What an interesting article that is...I still couldn't see any reference in it to the type of mark; wolf or fox, if any, at Hounslow though several of the bladesmiths used the Me Fecit term...and as you say several went to Shotley Bridge. Good luck with that hoard of blades you are looking into... and the meeting with the council people etc...

[urbanspaceman]

I have unearthed such a treasure trove of information on the SB swordmakers today that it will take me several days to go through it all and extract the missing details of the story. Info from both the Shotley Bridge Heritage Trust and the Consett Heritage Trust.
Perhaps when all the facts are established (and that may never actually occur of course), the mystique may dwindle, taking the attraction of the adventure with it - but I doubt it.

[urbanspaceman]

Apropos of ‘Hollows’: do you think it is possible that when they referred to hollow blades they were talking about fullers? I’m not convinced that Colichemarde and later were ground hollow; I’m wondering if they were drawn or hammered into shape… or both. Looking at my one hollow blade (from Klingenthal) it doesn’t seem practical from a materials point of view to start with a solid chunk of steel then grind the hollows into it. How is it done today, does anyone out there know? .

[urbanspaceman]

attached is the 1703 agreement sword specs

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Apropos of ‘Hollows’: do you think it is possible that when they referred to hollow blades they were talking about fullers? I’m not convinced that Colichemarde and later were ground hollow; I’m wondering if they were drawn or hammered into shape… or both. Looking at my one hollow blade (from Klingenthal) it doesn’t seem practical from a materials point of view to start with a solid chunk of steel then grind the hollows into it. How is it done today, does anyone out there know? .

Certainly the Solingen people had a machine with little wheels...presumeably small grinders..and hollows were the heavily grooved out blades as seen on Colichemarde blades. Below is how the normal fullers were hammered into a flat blade but this was a different process to Colichemardes. I dont believe these blades were drawn out like wire... but ground out with spinning grindstone wheels..The Forte being left flat for strength though you will see some coli blades with three faces all the way to the guard and no squared off Forte.

Below the black arrow denotes the mallet...for ordinary fuller placement on flat blades.

[urbanspaceman]

Yes, I watched a video of a smith putting hollows into a Brown Bess bayonet and he hammered them in, resting the blade on a former in the anvil. I was thinking that, after that stage. the grinding would be minimal and the waste material also. Considering that they were having to spend a lot of money on stock and getting into heavy debt as a result, it seems that grinding it all away was wasteful and expensive.
The hollow blade I have has one large hollow and two smaller hollows, and it looks like it could easily have been hammered into that shape then ground smooth.
Does anyone actually have first-hand experience of this miraculous machine that is at the heart of all the controversy, mystery and contention?
I keep coming back to the requests for patents and exclusivity from the ex Hounslow smiths after the civil war here: all claiming to be able to produce hollow blades; it doesn't ring true to me.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Although Burton was wrong at page 135 in his epic Book of Swords where he indicated Colichemarde going suddenly out of fashion at the time of Louis 14th he does show interesting perspective on the same page with Biscayan blades not much different to Colichemarde.

[urbanspaceman]

Looking at the list (above) of required blades from the SB smiths in 1703, we see many mentions of hollows - sometimes three hollows; what is that all about?
I don't understand some of the terms used to describe blade types so I don't understand what they meant by three hollows. Any help here anybody?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Yes, I watched a video of a smith putting hollows into a Brown Bess bayonet and he hammered them in, resting the blade on a former in the anvil. I was thinking that, after that stage. the grinding would be minimal and the waste material also. Considering that they were having to spend a lot of money on stock and getting into heavy debt as a result, it seems that grinding it all away was wasteful and expensive.
The hollow blade I have has one large hollow and two smaller hollows, and it looks like it could easily have been hammered into that shape then ground smooth.
Does anyone actually have first-hand experience of this miraculous machine that is at the heart of all the controversy, mystery and contention?
I keep coming back to the requests for patents and exclusivity from the ex Hounslow smiths after the civil war here: all claiming to be able to produce hollow blades; it doesn't ring true to me.

Its a good point and since they were all smuggling the basic Colichemardes into England at the time I personally don't believe there was a machine in the entire country doing this work. They were all making it up !! :shrug: If there was a machine then... where is it now? There wasnt one ... It was baloney !!

[Jim McDougall]

Keith,
The three hollows were, if I understand, the triangular or three faced blades , if I recall, they were termed 'Biscayan' as noted by Ibrahiim
The colichemarde blades I believe were primarily produced in Solingen, but I would not be surprised at French production as well. I agree, it is unlikely any were ever produced in Shotley, but most certainly were imported in some degree.

All the best
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Another take on what they meant by Hollows; They use the word in two ways I suspect... First to describe a sword e.g. Hangers with two hollows by which I think they mean fullers. However when they say hollow grind they mean the type of blade seen on colichemarde and seen on the chart at 36 where the bayonets are listed.

[Jim McDougall]

If I understand correctly, hollow ground means the concave grinding out of the face of a blade, creating a notably stronger cross section, much as with the I beam in steel girders.
Fullers are drawn linear grooves placed in the blade at time of forging I believe, and the differences in these have been incredibly hard to grasp as the terms have often confusing definitions. The notion of 'blood gutters' has been one of the most off center notions of all.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

If I understand correctly, hollow ground means the concave grinding out of the face of a blade, creating a notably stronger cross section, much as with the I beam in steel girders.
Fullers are drawn linear grooves placed in the blade at time of forging I believe, and the differences in these have been incredibly hard to grasp as the terms have often confusing definitions. The notion of 'blood gutters' has been one of the most off center notions of all.


Salaams Jim and exactly the kind of backup needed just now as the thread enters murky waters... not that we have crystal clarity and as experienced by Kieth on the ground quite a lot of myth and legend mixed with some half truths and a lot of complete nonsense not least the mercury filled hollow blade puzzle..and not with standing that how far he has advanced our understanding of the Shotley situation...A key factor in swordmaking in England at the time.

I was looking at the odd stories on Fullers and how that became muddled but interestingly how it only appears in the mid 19thC in terms used by blacksmiths and presumably sword makers...I wonder did they use the old English Hollows terminology...which would add to the puzzlement in calling blades hollow and of hollow grinding which is completely different~

Using wiki in this regard I note Quote" The term "fuller" is from the Old English fuliere, meaning "one who fulls (pleats) cloth." It is derived from the Latin word fullo. The first recorded use of the term as a blacksmithing tool is from 1864, according to Webster's Dictionary. The term used in historical Europe is largely unknown, and due to the constantly changing nature of language, the popular term also may have varied from generation to generation. King Thrasamund of the Vandals was recorded in a letter to King Theodoric the Ostrogoth, giving thanks for a gift of swords, and refers to the fullers in the blades as simply grooves: "...their centers, hollowed out with beautiful grooves, seem to undulate with worm-like markings; for shadows of such variety you would think the metal was interwoven rather than shining with different colors." The French often use the term goutiere (gutter) or cannelure (channel). The ancient Viking term is unknown. As a verb, the old French term "gutter" meant "to cut small hollows," as in the gutter of a crossbow."Unquote.
Voila!! :)

[urbanspaceman]

Gentlemen, what about my proposition that the hollows were hammered-in and ground smooth? Shotley Bridge nearly went bankrupt paying Den Haydon for stock, so to waste all those grooves' worth of finished steel ground into filings does not make sense. Far better to spend time hammering them out on an anvil - or smuggling them in from Rotterdam. I am sure Solingen would feel the same way, as they were buying their steel from the Swedes. Was a man's time more expensive than steel stock?

That's why I keep banging-on about hammering in the hollows, as maybe there never was a machine anywhere! Otherwise, why not make a one at Shotley Bridge; those guys knew what it looked like, how it worked, and had all the skills and materials needed to build a one.

So far, I am unable to envisage a machine that can grind a gradually tapering groove into the side of a triangular cross-section length of steel; and I'm usually pretty good at that sort of thing. I'll keep trying.

Speaking of steel, something I discovered yesterday was that there were two Bertrams: William and John; I can't find my notes telling me which one was shipwrecked off the mouth of the Tyne. They were both from Remscheid, which was a Lutheran suburb of Solingen back then. So, a Bertram was obviously sent-for to run the forges and provide steel in 1690, which - at least - was the date of the shipwreck. The other Bertram (and I'm thinking the father, as the shipwrecked Bertram was only 20) may have come earlier to help Vinting, then sent for his son.

Vinting was Swedish by the way, and descended from the 'Ingenious Artisans' that Queen Elizabeth tasked with finding, mining and working metals around the country. The Vintings started work back in the 1500s organising the mining of lead at nearby Ryton.

Thomas Carnforth, the Newcastle cutler, commandeered the current Vinting to help set up the works at SB back in 1685; Vinting almost certainly supplied the recommendation to Dell regarding the suitability of the Derwent valley.

As Hounslow was still making blades into the early 1680s, Dell, who was the principle German blade-mill owner, would be selling to Carnforth. And delivering - as payment had to be collected; which put him in Newcastle well in advance of 1685, when he set up the syndicate and brought up Hoppe and Heneckels, who had moved back to Hounslow from Oxford.

I am quite certain that Carnforth would be buying from Dell at Hounslow, because there was the high duty on German imports via nearby Rotterdam; so, assuming the machine existed - and only in Solingen, the hollow blades would be the one thing that Dell could not supply... hence the initial plan.
Is the picture coming into focus? Are you all following me so far? Please pick holes in the above if you see any flaws in the picture: I need the best editors.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Great stuff Keith.The point is we dont know..as no machine ever appeared but it may well have been a hammer and grinding wheel combination. They used big water powered and later steam powered hammers. Any luck with the hoard of blades you mentioned earlier..?

[urbanspaceman]

The chest of blades was given to a local museum.
People who work in museums consider all the exhibits and archived treasures as their own, and in the past I have had to threaten curators with legal action before they have allowed access to what actually belongs to the public; unless it is a loan of course.
Anyway, the chap who donated the blades told me to give him a call if I had any difficulty accessing the hoard, so I will have to do that this week, as my polite request of two weeks ago has been politely ignored.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I wonder what blade marks they have ... Assuming they were on route to Shotley Bridge? I would guess passau wolf marks. Good luck with the search.

[urbanspaceman]

They had come from Shotley Bridge and were certainly for the Danbys who were staunch Catholics and had been for generations. They are one of England's oldest families dating back before the Normans to the time of Edward the Confessor. They are still an unbroken line today. It is the current head of the family that is helping me.
I'm also chasing up the Percys at Alnwick: not quite as old a family line but certainly higher profile today thanks to Mr Potter.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Percy family is a most interesting group... I noted the excellent history of each member on https://www.alnwickcastle.com/explore/the-history/the-percy-family :shrug:

[Hotspur]

There are Percies, and then there were Percy's :D
A better bookmark, fwiw.
http://www.percyfamilyhistory.com/?

I bring mention of that because of the default and adoption of the name. Thus Hugh Percy, of the American Revolution, wasn't really a Perci at all ;)

[Hotspur]

Do not get me started. Some images are too large to attach here.

I have a pennon/banner buried somewhere.

The Percies were often on the "wrong" side, even during the retreat from Lexigton and Concord but aside from the gunpowder plot generation, true and valiant warriors at war.

Cheers

GC aka Hotspur

The MDL photos courtesy of the Michael D Long pages more than a decade ago.

Also a documents on crescents. Not really topical to the Shotley Bridge discussion but still interesting.

I don't know if this Tudor era page will load (resized it) May be too small to read well. Another now resized, perhaps it will load. Phew, what a workout.

[urbanspaceman]

Noun Grammar Rules:
Singular = Lady.
Plural = Ladies.
Possessive Singular = Lady's.
Possessive Plural = Ladies' (or strictly Ladies's: not comfortable nowadays).
But...
Proper noun grammar rules:
Singular = Percy.
Plural = Percys.
Possessive Singular = Percy's.
Possessive Plural = Percys' (or strictly Percys's: not comfortable nowadays).

If the singular and plural both end in an s... answers please.

[Hotspur]

Noun Grammar Rules:
Singular = Lady.
Plural = Ladies.
Possessive Singular = Lady's.
Possessive Plural = Ladies' (or strictly Ladies's: not comfortable nowadays).
But...
Proper noun grammar rules:
Singular = Percy.
Plural = Percys.
Possessive Singular = Percy's.
Possessive Plural = Percys' (or strictly Percys's: not comfortable nowadays).

If the singular and plural both end in an s... answers please.
Oh goody, a gentle grammarian with a red pencil. Of dozens of edits i had made today, I left one for your attentions.

Cheers

GC

[urbanspaceman]

I have come up with a design for a machine that can roll hollows into a tapering length of red-hot steel; even one wide and two narrow hollows if required. If I had the right software I could draw it, but alas...
I keep going on about the waste of grinding, but this machine could first roll the majority of the hollow, then grind true, then polish, just by changing the wheels and the speed. Including the Colichemarde!

[kronckew]

i found a reference to someone else suggesting extruding rollers to form the blade then heat treating it. which is another skill. heat treating these long thin blades without getting a warp would take real skill, even if you did do a finish grind. not much room for error at all. steel was variable, and temperatures were judged by eye, not electronics. no cnc machines in those days.

[urbanspaceman]

Yes, you're right: keeping it straight during the tempering must have been a major problem.
I have this 1850s court sword from the Coulaux Brothers in Klingenthal which has the most astonishing polished steel blade of the two narrow, one wide hollow variety. I find it difficult to put it down, it is such a marvellous thing to parry about with: stiff enough and sharp enough to penetrate, yet incredibly flexible and light; plus, perfectly balanced. I have a regular two-sided court sword of the same period from Solingen and it doesn't feel anywhere near as comfortable to hold. Plus, I don't know how Klingenthal produced such a brilliant polish to their steel, it looks like it is chrome plated; it's not, is it? I always thought chromium plating was developed in America in the 1920s... but!

[kronckew]

nickel plating has been around a long time: https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/metals-metal-products/nickel-plating-history/

found online:

Commercial chrome plating was developed by Fink & Eldridge at Columbia University in 1924, and was based on a 1920 paper by Dr. George J. Sargent. In very simple terms, Sargent discovered that in order to electroplate chromium you need almost exactly 1 part of sulfuric acid to 100 parts of chromic acid. More sulfuric acid or less and it just won't plate. Because of this discovery, the most conventional chromium plating process is still called "the Sargent bath".

also thermal coating of metals with mercury amalgams has been used for millennia. usually by slaves as it tended to kill the artisans using it. ;)

thermal heat treating is hardening the steel by heating it to the temperature where it loses it's nagnetic attraction, then quenching it.

too fast a quench can result in cracking - the dreaded 'ping' or warping. water is usually a no-no, and oil is used. this if done right produces a hard steel, but it's brittle. it must be tempered by reheating it to a much lower temp. (it depends on the type of and composition of the steel) than the hardening required to allow the stresses to work themselves out, allowing it to air cool. (steel can also be 'normalised' or 'annealed' back into a workable softer state by heating it to the non-magnetic temp then cooling it slowly, frequently packing it in insulation and waiting a few days to let it cool.) heating it too high can burn the steel, effectively removing the carbon, and turning it into iron instead of steel.

the hardening rather than the tempering usually produces the unwanted warps. i've heard a primitive blacksmith say if you use a horizontal quenching tank aligned north to south rather than a vertical one it won't warp. not sure how true that is.

the japanese took advantage of this by making their blades almost straight, then differentially hardening them which hardened the edge with a quick cooling, while the spine took longer, and actually self-tempered it all in the same step. it also produced a more noticeable but desired curve. mastering that along with the folding processes and inserting higher carbon steel edges into lower carbon spines was not an easy skill to learn.

p.s. - i've yet to hear them refer to tempering on 'forged in fire' on the history tv channel. probably why they snap so many blades.

[urbanspaceman]

Ah so! Nickel plating eh? Well that would explain the shine. Mind you, I have bought hand-made knives in the USA that are carbon steel and have a superb shine, so maybe it's just the steel well polished. Thank you for all that info, I'm learning so much writing this book.

[Hotspur]

p.s. - i've yet to hear them refer to tempering on 'forged in fire' on the history tv channel. probably why they snap so many blades.

In discussing this with one of the contestants, it has been related to me that the show omits the tempering phase but I have been assured that the makers do indeed temper the blades. Whether deemed a waste of air time or trade secret, that's why.

Of course, the History channel is for entertainment and not any primary source I am aware of. If someone has a question for a smith, ask the smith.

Cheers

GC

[Hotspur]

I have come up with a design for a machine that can roll hollows into a tapering length of red-hot steel; even one wide and two narrow hollows if required. If I had the right software I could draw it, but alas...
I keep going on about the waste of grinding, but this machine could first roll the majority of the hollow, then grind true, then polish, just by changing the wheels and the speed. Including the Colichemarde!
Rolling mills come in during the industrial revolution. Why it took steam to develop it before water wheels, I am not sure but it also goes hand in hand with increases of the production of all metals. Ordinary tableware also becoming more regular items.

Cheers

GC

[kronckew]

Ah so! Nickel plating eh? Well that would explain the shine. Mind you, I have bought hand-made knives in the USA that are carbon steel and have a superb shine, so maybe it's just the steel well polished. Thank you for all that info, I'm learning so much writing this book.

some people are strongly allergic to nickel, in objects that will be handled, like coins or sword/knife blades, or grips, even zippers, buckles, pins, needles, stainless steel may contain some nickel. the 5 cent US nickel, so called because it is 25% nickel, so is to be avoided if you are allergic.

there is a certain khukri making firm in nepal that produces an amazing mirror polish on their 5150 steel knives. they use a home made polishing disk made from old rags sewn together and a 'magic stone' rouge powder dressing stuck on the wheel with bees wax. the making of the powder and the stone they make it from is a trade secret. (most of the knives they make for the local villagers are left rough or black). the pictures of their 'factory' is scary. OSHA would have a field day. of course period sword factories in the west were not very safe either. before electricity the nepali kamis used a similar wheel turned by hand, with a line wraped around the spindle and pulled alternately one way or the other to get the speed up. no water power either.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The point is that the Solingen swordmakers had a device for turning out what some recognise as Biscayayne or Colichemarde blades for which there was an enormous demand in the rest of Europe. They talked of little wheels... which people thought meant grinding wheels but which like the rest of the story may have been misunderstood and what were thought to be grinders were perhaps small rolling wheels on the Rolling Mill.

Until I looked I didnt know that Leonardo da Vinci may well be credited with the first rolling mill device..seen below. The power for rolling mills was first the horse then water...then steam...etc

This may mean that hammers were not involved at least not initially. See https://www.innovaltec.com/history-metal-rolling-blog/

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In a further note at http://www.metalworkingworldmagazine.com/a-short-sheet-metal-history/

Quote"The first industrial plant of which we have certain news was used in 1615, to obtain lead and tin plates. Others followed, driven by animal or hydraulic force. Due to the increased possibility of obtaining ferrous material, the cold rolling of steel is simultaneously started. In 1682 a cold rolling mill of notable sizes was present in Newcastle in England. The first detailed description dates back to few years later; it is a plant in Galles (presumeably Wales)that processed 700 mm-long bars with 100 mm width, which could obtain sheets with 1500×700 mm sizes, it is the first certain witness of the steel rolling process to produce sheet metal, the driving force was provided by water wheels . Galles will remain the main European producer of thin sheets until the end of 1700. In the eighteenth century they also started rolling more complex shapes: rounds, squares, rails, double-T beams etc. It is essential to observe how the rolling complies with the demands of that age producing the requested materials: in 1600 lead sheets for the roof covers were highly requested and this possibility is then developed, at the end of 1700, in the middle of the industrial revolution, they needed rails and semi-finished steel products that therefore the rolling promptly satisfies."Unquote.