Shotley Bridge swordmakers [Archive] - Page 2

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

15th November 2017, 03:07 PM

I still await the dashboard Matt Easton led bobble head :) Matt will offer a video for just about anything he happens to read. I suppose he is not a bad starting point but I find far too many are depending upon video and Wikipedia for their informational needs instead of looking at primary sources (upon which Matt is more than willing to promote). The slippery slope is the interested stopping there, after their drive through experience in learning.

Cheers

GC

Salaams Hotspur, Great post thanks ~ As a university teacher I can assure you of the value of a broad cross section of referencing as you will deduce by looking at any of my threads... It is important to include Forum Library references as well as Web references and of course book quotes, photographs, professional papers, maps and artwork. Tap dancing on the table is allowed if it gets the students attention!!

I have many items of Arabian antiquity including weapons placed by friends at Durham University UK (Antiquities Department) and you should see their student tear into their course work ...They are like scientific detectives using every chemical and testing gizmo invented and then they get down to the books ...They probe, question, analyze and consider every aspect of an artifact and their report ...a sort of structured mega thread are stunningly well done. The most recent test is currently running and the student has to produce a video presentation on an ancient Afgan Ewer !!

Some of the webs historical battles are fantastic, well thought out and accurate productions ~ and although Matt comes in for a fair bit of leg pulling his lectures are often quite well done for an amateur and anyway no one is saying you have to watch it ! :)

The video is a picture worth a thousand words on steroids!

Modern technology in the classroom is world apart from chalk boards (though these too have their place) and the modern lecturer has a broad base of high tech to support lessons.

Wiki is an incredible resource which is captivating material faster than ever and for example within a few years every book on this earth will be on tap on the web and free!...Ignoring that would be slightly odd.

Having said that I respect those who stick by more conventional structures but it should be noted that we are in fact the same sort of data base gathering machine as Wiki... That is how our excellent Library gathers details. We are an information gathering system in precisely the same way as Wiki.

Of course being a new thing Wiki gets blasted from all sides as did the motor car and aeroplane ! It seems all right to be somewhat scornful of the Web as fair game but who looks to our own system for improved ideas...?

Apple has a group of scientists in their new inventions division and are experimenting with new tech all the time...When did Forum bring on a new concept or structure like automatic Library referencing on every new thread? Its only an tiny algorithm...

Finally I refer to my mobile device memo on which I wrote the other day.."The quickened pace of technology requires a brighter more fluid response from a tech savvy audience using innovative, nimble, bright and clever research tools at their instant finger tips". :shrug:

Hotspur

15th November 2017, 05:43 PM

I still think Matt could sell thousands of bobble heads. ;)

I see the videos and wikis as a place for the interested to begin an understanding but too few are going beyond them.

Cheers

GC

Jim McDougall

15th November 2017, 07:55 PM

Not wishing to defer this outstanding discussion from the intriguing topic of these English sword makers to the more mundane topic of learning mediums, I simply agree, Wiki and videos along with many other developing technological advances are very much advancing our resources.

Even in the old days in my researching, no papyrus jokes!!!:) , as I pored through book after book, the cites and referenced notes were prompts for me to check those cited sources further for context and additional information.
It is no different with Wikipedia or any other medium, and it is quite frankly more expedient to have such resources at ones fingertips than interlibrary loan or searching for books by mail or old book stores.

I agree, too many fall short of further research, as evidenced here many times by participants who do not read previous posts or do not use the easily accessed search function and resources here at hand. It is a matter of personal preference, and choice. People have quite varied ajendas, and if there is too much depth, or not enough, on a topic, the choice is to move past it and to material more to their own level of interest.

Back to the subject at hand, the use of machinery, Sir Richard Burton visited Solingen around 1875, "...the city had not yet been touched by the Industrial Revolution", and he noted 'the hammering and forging are utterly ignorant of progress', revealing his own contempt for the modern affectations of machines.

He notes that tempering is done in water 'as usual' rather than oil.
It was noted that the steam engine had led to many new machines, but despite dislike of the machines by bladesmiths, there was no denial of the opportunities afforded for mass production.

In 1847.....a mechanism for ROLLING BLADES from long strips of steel was introduced, a "painful blow for the old masters".

-"By The Sword", Richard Cohen, 2003, p.119 ('The Great Swordmakers).

It seems odd that the most influential blade making center in the world apparently relied on tried and true old traditional anvil hammering methods this late in time, yet in England this great attention to rolling mills was at hand in the 17th century.

urbanspaceman

15th November 2017, 08:05 PM

Thank-you Gentlemen, an abundance of pertinent information.

Initially, let me flag the info regarding lead rolling mills, as Vintner was descended from a family of lead mining and processing engineers.

Incidentally, many have posited that Vintner was German, but I can find no trace – anywhere, anytime – of that name being present in Germany (if anybody can, then I will be well pleased); however, I can find Vinton used commonly in Sweden and occasionally in Scandinavia generally, hence my suggestion that he was probably Swedish. The 'Ingenious Artisans' that Queen Elizabeth instructed to 'find, mine and process metals countrywide' were not from Germany alone.

Secondly, and just as a side issue: I don't know how many of you have ever witnessed white-hot sheet-metal coming out of a rolling-mill ? It is very scary, especially if you are standing on one of those gantries near the coiling machine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuuP8L-WppI).
However, in order to roll the shape of a Biscayne blade (are we going to call it that now?) you do-not/cannot use speed, it has to be done slowly with a varied degree of pressure; at least if you are using the machine that I conceived yesterday, which has three round edged wheels (one wider than the other two) that are of varying width around the circumference (which equals the length of the blade) and all three pointing into a central gap through which the hot metal rod is inserted then extruded; the wheels are mounted on axles that are spring loaded and simultaneously turned slowly by hand.
A picture is worth a thousand words, I know, but I'm sure you will understand what I am getting at if you are of a mechanical mind-set.

Incidentally, and apropos of Mat's video: he talks about 15th C. hollow blades, which are a revelation to me; does anyone have any information on these swords?

Also, he keeps referring to 'Hollow Ground' which is a terminology that unfortunately seems to predominate and is probably responsible for the notion that the 'Machine' was a grinding machine and not a rolling mill – of sorts. Perhaps those 15th C. blades were hand ground; I suspect it is more likely they were beaten into shape on an anvil former.

But…

In regard to this particular thread I have to say that the Shotley Bridge story may never be written with a veracity cast in stone, as there is constantly emerging pertinent material - when you go looking, that can potentially turn all of the collected written word on its head. For example, apart from chiselling Shotley Bridge or stamping the crossed swords or bridge symbol, I don't know how to establish – one way or the other at this present moment – that SB, and in particular Oley, eventually used the bushy tailed fox; or, for that matter, if they ever used the Passau wolf – or, if anyone outside of Germany ever used the Passau wolf; rather than us buying imported blades already stamped.

All I can do is find out as much as I can and sometimes best guess when accuracy is not mandatory: as with Vinting being Swedish not German, for example. How much effort needs to be put into establishing that as a cast-iron fact? Unlike the bushy tailed fox, how much does it ultimately matter?

Establishing what are the subjects demanding hard facts is, in itself, a demanding, and open to question, endeavour. For example:
Have we reached a point where we can accept that the principle shaping of a hollow blade was not by grinding wheel but by rolling or hammering?
Have we reached a point where we can accept that Shotley Bridge did not employ any machine for producing quantities of hollow blades? Or that they ever actually produced such blades?
Could we accept that doing so may never have been their intention when they brought the nineteen families over?
Instead, that those families arrived to deal with huge demands for battle-field blades from the Jacobites et al, and the hollow-blade project remained as a politically necessary subterfuge by the original syndicate, and then a financially expedient coverall by the South Sea Company?
And on and on… Isn't this fun?!

urbanspaceman

15th November 2017, 08:26 PM

About 1880, when over here, Fritz Weyersberg saw, then purchased the patent for a blade roll forge invented in England. Apparently it is still in use at WKC; although Andre Wilms didn't want to talk about it when I asked earlier this year. Coals to Newcastle?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

16th November 2017, 09:11 PM

But…

In regard to this particular thread I have to say that the Shotley Bridge story may never be written with a veracity cast in stone, as there is constantly emerging pertinent material - when you go looking, that can potentially turn all of the collected written word on its head. For example, apart from chiselling Shotley Bridge or stamping the crossed swords or bridge symbol, I don't know how to establish – one way or the other at this present moment – that SB, and in particular Oley, eventually used the bushy tailed fox; or, for that matter, if they ever used the Passau wolf – or, if anyone outside of Germany ever used the Passau wolf; rather than us buying imported blades already stamped.

All I can do is find out as much as I can and sometimes best guess when accuracy is not mandatory: as with Vinting being Swedish not German, for example. How much effort needs to be put into establishing that as a cast-iron fact? Unlike the bushy tailed fox, how much does it ultimately matter?

Establishing what are the subjects demanding hard facts is, in itself, a demanding, and open to question, endeavour. For example:
Have we reached a point where we can accept that the principle shaping of a hollow blade was not by grinding wheel but by rolling or hammering?
Have we reached a point where we can accept that Shotley Bridge did not employ any machine for producing quantities of hollow blades? Or that they ever actually produced such blades?
Could we accept that doing so may never have been their intention when they brought the nineteen families over?
Instead, that those families arrived to deal with huge demands for battle-field blades from the Jacobites et al, and the hollow-blade project remained as a politically necessary subterfuge by the original syndicate, and then a financially expedient coverall by the South Sea Company?
And on and on… Isn't this fun?!

Yes and No to all of that~ The story has lies and myth intermixed with half truths and all sorts of counter claims... The sword makers would not want to be implicated in the Jacobite supply of arms as that was the direct route to the executioner. Surely they would not want their swords being found on Jacobite fighters with the Shotley blade mark... :) The South Sea Co. was about as scurrilous as it could get and involved up to its neck in slavery. There was smuggling going on all over the map..Were the swords made in Solingen stamped with the Passau Wolf before being smuggled and/or done in Shotley Bridge? Was Samuel Harvey and his son Samuel Harvey Jnr. in Birmingham, the only location using the Bushy Tail Fox ? Who was William Harvey?
What machine was used if any to Roll the blades? Rolling Mill? Where is it now? Was there a Colichemarde machine which ground the sword blades ? Was the machine not simply a Rolling Mill ? etc etc. Was grinding only done manually?
These are important questions and are at the heart of the sword making conundrum in England ...

urbanspaceman

16th November 2017, 09:18 PM

I'm still nose to the grindstone Ibrahiim.

urbanspaceman

16th November 2017, 11:09 PM

I’ve been convinced for some time that the bushy-tailed running fox was first used by the Oleys.
That vendor and auctioneer last year were certain of it.
Oley based the Guild of the Running Fox headquarters in the second Cutler’s Hall he built in 1787.
And I’ve just discovered that a Richard Oley went to work in Birmingham, I think around 1740 but I need to confirm that.
I’m meeting with the keeper of the archives of Shotley Bridge next week: I took a woman along to last week’s meeting and she charmed the pants off him (well, not literally). He’s agreed to allow me access to all the archives that the village has concerning the sword-makers. That’s something John Bygate couldn’t manage.
Surely I can confirm, one way or the other, that Oley used the bushy-tailed running fox first.
Incidentally, it is stated that the SB smiths also used a blade stamp of the crossed swords or the image of a bridge. I suspect we may well find those marks on the tangs of appropriate swords if we could reveal them.
I’m very keen to view this cache of swords in Bowes Museum, but I suspect they will make me jump through hoops and wait till Christmas before they allow me access. I’ve learned that most museums behave that way.
However, as I said earlier this week, you guys are putting everything under the microscope and that is exactly what I need.

Hotspur

17th November 2017, 09:42 AM

I am not sure where to start in reply to what I read as quite a diverse bit of rambling but let me post a couple of related thoughts without parsing this past page.

In my own reading and inquiry regarding one Prosser regarding pipe back (quill point) blades, my question was whether rolling mills were being used to form these sword blades. A reply from Robert Wilkinson-Latham mentions rolling mills were used primarily for bayonets, well into the 19th century. However, there is a British patent for rolling pipe just about the same timeline and by a Prosser (weird huh?). In yet another discussion with Wilkinson-Latham, he had provided quite a bit of information on Wilkinson blades and although (later 19th century) rolling mills were employed for the reduction of stock thickness, there were many processes preceding and following that passage of steel. These discussions can be found at his profile at Sword Forum International. He also breaks down the timelines of Weyersburg, WKC and the eventual sale of tooling from Wilkinson to WKC.

Regarding hollow blade swords and the high medieval timeline, a fair number of extant examples remain in museums and collections in Europe and the UK. Examined and discussed by the likes of smith Peter Johansson, I am a bit surprised that someone searching the topic is/was unaware. Peter's home page
http://www.peterjohnsson.com/ As youtube takes the fancy of many, there re also video presentations from him found there. One can also follow discussions at discussion boards such those found on www.myarmoury.com.

On a final note, my own thoughts on the trefoil, three edge blades and whether they are the product of rolling mills; I suppose it is possible but when one considers the remaining grinding required after a rough form, wheels must still have been employed. My hunch on the matter is that three wheels were set in such a manner as to accept the blank and the wheels with tension on pivots allow the length to be ground and polished.

Addendum
Noted in my first post(s) in reply to this thread is the British History Online site with copious reference materials and where I had first seen some notes on the Hollow Sword Company. In discussion on the myArmoury forums, Howard Waddell (Albion Swords) mentions in his own research much of what has already been mentioned here in this thread but the bottom line was hollow ground swords being produced with water powered grinding wheels. We often look to the largest possible dimension of tools, when we ought not forget how small tooling was becoming. Food for thought? To me, a menu ranging from horology to engines and general tool making.

Sciences thought to be lost often appear to have never disappeared.

Cheers

Glen Cleeton

urbanspaceman

17th November 2017, 11:05 AM

Ref. Previous post from Hotspur:
thank-you Glen, I will set-to and look at the links you have provided.
I need this kind of help because, up until the summer of this year, I knew absolutely nothing about swords, sword-making and sword fighting; and the only thing I knew about blade-making was what had been learned by osmosis - as it is almost impossible to avoid documentaries and articles on Japanese blade-making of the 1500s onwards.
With regard to WKC: Pooley are determined to convince us that they evolved out of Wilkinson-Sword, which they probably did, but not to the extent they profess. Andre Wilms told me that they got the majority of the tooling and equipment, but he would not comment on the 'blade roll forge' Fritz Weyersburg acquired around 1880; and the Klingenmuseum denied all knowledge of it too. I must explore this Prosser connection: thank-you.
Horology, of course, stimulated our catch-up, of 3,000 odd years, on the Indians and Sri Lankans. It's no distance from Shotley Bridge to Doncaster; although I understand Huntsman didn't make his final progress until he moved to Sheffield. Even so, I am certain there was a constant movement of craftsmen and ideas around this small geographical area during the 1700s.
As I said in my previous post: a Robert Oley was working in Birmingham 1724 - 1732; now how much knowledge and experience could he have transplanted?
Also, Dan Hayward, of Sheffield, was deeply involved in the workings at Shotley Bridge, and was determined to acquire the whole shebang: lock, stock and barrel, in the early 1700s.
Thanks again Glen.

Hotspur

17th November 2017, 01:02 PM

A good start for anything regarding the Japanese swords, Rich Stein's pages are excellent.
https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/

The Viking Sword site had been a very early visit I made, along with Stein's pages and other sword related resources.

Another portal is Fordham's
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/sbook.asp

A large collection of links here, another very early bookmark in my lists
http://www.sirclisto.com/

Cheers

GC

urbanspaceman

18th November 2017, 09:55 PM

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

19th November 2017, 10:32 AM

Every book, article or account I have read to date has all remarked on the same issue: that cessation of warfare over the years had impacted greatly on the business at SB; which implies that they were making most of their money from the supply of battlefield weapons. I have only just seen the relevance of this: duh!!!; it’s remarkable how much I still need to explore.

Incidentally, I’ve also re-discovered this bit of info:
It was during the renovation of Cutlers Hall, when the stencil of what appears to be a "running fox" was found on the wooden ceiling of one room. see image

Did anyone notice the dating of the appearance of a Robert Oley in Birmingham: from 1724 – 1832; the dates must be mixed up because that would make him working for 108 years, unless it was including a son (or a nephew) of the same name.

Finally, the story of an Oley winning a crown for the best sword in England must have a germ of truth about it; is anyone aware of the competition and who, what and where it was?

[IMG]
PLEASE See post 13 It refers to the competition and it was when after winning the crown they changed the name of the Sword Inn to the Crown and Crossed Swords. I recall a spurious note about the sword maker turning up...in Birmingham..it wasnt our man...l think Jim refers to this ..but l cant find it...The ceiling stencil is very interesting..not that it is running or flying...Neither is it a bushey tail variant. Could this simply be a dog? Unrelated by pure accident ??

urbanspaceman

19th November 2017, 11:08 AM

[QUOTE=The ceiling stencil is very interesting..not that it is running or flying...Neither is it a bushey tail variant. Could this simply be a dog? Unrelated by pure accident ??[/QUOTE]

I agree Ibrahiim, writers have given much pertinence to this image on the ceiling, but I also feel it is not representative of the fox or the wolf. It is more likely a builder's mark.

Has anyone ever explained how a mark of quality bestowed by an Archduke in 1349 to a Passau guild ended up more commonly representing Solingen who were both competition and also on the opposite side of the country. It seems to me that the Shotley Bridge story has nearly as much historical beginnings in Germany as it does in England.

The business of the competition: I wondered if this was a known historical event that endured into more recent times, rather than the actual occasion when Oley won the crown.

urbanspaceman

19th November 2017, 07:30 PM

Has anyone ever explained how a mark of quality bestowed by an Archduke in 1349 to a Passau guild ended up more commonly representing Solingen who were both competition and also on the opposite side of the country. It seems to me that the Shotley Bridge story has nearly as much historical beginnings in Germany as it does in England.
Apropos of the above, I came across this in one of the SB books:

The earliest swordmaking centres of Europe were at Milan,
Brescia, Toledo, Strasburg, Passau and Solingen. The distribution point
was Cologne. The merchants congregated there to take their percentage
and send the blades on in chests or bundles to be furbished in other
towns and countries. If these 'Cologne' swords (as they were called), bore the mark
of the 'Flying Fox' which guaranteed Solingen make, they were enhanced
in value. The mark was not associated with any particular bladesmith
(who always inscribed his own mark on the blade or tang- which is
hidden in the hilt), but was granted to the Armourer's Guild at Passau
by Archduke Albert in 1349 and was subsequently stamped on all
Solingen blades as a mark of excellence. In those days the marking
and stamping on the blades was witnessed in the market place.

It would seem that the blades would already bear the Passau Wolf and the public stamping of bladesmith identity was done in public. Even so, if you are buying a chest of blades (how many blades in a chest?) you would be waiting around some time while each one was stamped.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

20th November 2017, 07:35 AM

Apropos of the above, I came across this in one of the SB books:

The earliest swordmaking centres of Europe were at Milan,
Brescia, Toledo, Strasburg, Passau and Solingen. The distribution point
was Cologne. The merchants congregated there to take their percentage
and send the blades on in chests or bundles to be furbished in other
towns and countries. If these 'Cologne' swords (as they were called), bore the mark
of the 'Flying Fox' which guaranteed Solingen make, they were enhanced
in value. The mark was not associated with any particular bladesmith
(who always inscribed his own mark on the blade or tang- which is
hidden in the hilt), but was granted to the Armourer's Guild at Passau
by Archduke Albert in 1349 and was subsequently stamped on all
Solingen blades as a mark of excellence. In those days the marking
and stamping on the blades was witnessed in the market place.

It would seem that the blades would already bear the Passau Wolf and the public stamping of bladesmith identity was done in public. Even so, if you are buying a chest of blades (how many blades in a chest?) you would be waiting around some time while each one was stamped.

Salaams Keith~ Therein lies a tale :) ~ The Shotley wording uses Flying Fox in describing the Solingen animal... It wasn't the bushy tail version... it was the stick-like wolf. The Wolf of Passau. Malleted and chiseled into the blade.

The Bushey tail flying Fox was Samuel Harveys. Birmingham. Initials SH in the body of the fox but not always. :)

Jim McDougall

20th November 2017, 07:49 AM

Actually, as always, a great deal of 'lore' becomes entwined in material compiled on many topics, and one of these greatly effected is the origins and history of the 'running wolf'.
It seems that the generally held idea of Archduke Albert granting the 'wolf' symbol to sword guilds in Passau in 1349 was suggested in Demmin (1877)but it is unclear where he found that data. When Rudolf Cronau wrote his "Geschicte der Solinger Klingenindustrie" (1885) he indicated he had never found proof of such award or association to a guild in this manner.

Passau did however use the rampant wolf as a town arms from c.1460, with its beginnings as such around 1402. It does seem that it was a center for the assembly of mercenary armies, and at some time the incising of a rudimentary rendering of the wolf into blades began being used. This was a kind of imbuement of power and protection for the warriors to use these weapons.
In these times and later, Solingen was producing blades, but as noted, these were sent to nearby Cologne to be mounted and sold as complete swords commonly known as 'Cologne Swords'.

It seems at some point the use of the 'running wolf' of Passau entered the repertoire of Solingen's blade makers. In regard to this, Wagner (Prague, 1967) notes that the 'Passau wolf' mark was used by Wundes (probably Johann Wundes the elder, 1560-1610) for his blade consignments for Passau merchants supplying the mercenary forces of Archduke Leopold V.

It seems the only makers I have found listed to Passau, are the Stantlers, running from early 15th c. through 16th, but they are equally noted to Munich. Among the various marks they used, many spurious of makers of Toledo etc. are noted, but not the running wolf.

The running wolf does however seem to be paired with various magical numbers or sometimes other 'general' marks such as cross and orb.
I am beginning to wonder just how many blades or weapons were indeed produced at Passau, or whether they were simply imported from Solingen or other centers and marked with the magical imbuement of the wolf, and or others.

Such magical and talismanic imbuements were among other forms of amulets also known as 'Passau art' suggesting association with Passau provided protection in battle. Therefore I am thinking that the term 'running wolf of Passau' is simply a descriptive term for the superstitions and notions applied to these crudely incised markings. The fact that they are so dissimilar and often nearly indiscernible is due to the fact they were actually applied in an almost token manner. It was the presence of the mark itself, not its accuracy or character, that mattered.

Later, as the magical tone subsided, it became regarded as a kind of quality mark, whose connotation was carried forward in that manner, in Solingen; later Hounslow.
The British counterpart of the wolf, the fox, may well owe its derivation to the Shakespeare references using the fox term with presumed suggestion of the so called "Passau wolf'. In Birmingham, makers Harvey and Dawes seeking to capitalize on the quality connotation used this in mid 18th c.

We know that the fox with SH was of course probably to Samuel Harvey, but while Dawes was believed to have used the fox as well, we do not know of his name or initials with the fox. Perhaps then those without initials are his.
We know also that Harvey used his name or initials without the fox, and it appears to have ceased being used .

With Shotley Bridge, in the 17th c. according to Aylward (1945, p.33), "...it appears they were importing forgings from Solingen, which were ground, tempered and finished at Shotley".
It seems that the running wolf may have still been used by these descendants from Hounslow and their Solingen ancestors as a mark of that quality and heritage, contrary to the notion that they were spurning the codes, oaths or expatriation from it.

urbanspaceman

20th November 2017, 01:08 PM

Hello Jim. That is precisely what I was looking for; I was wondering where I might find some early German sword history; thank-you.
So we can ignore the Archduke and the Passau guilds… good! Talismanic and mystical origins are so much more desirable.

To SB:
Between Oley and Mohll, the blade business at SB prospered (especially, it would seem, once greedy outside merchants were taken out of the picture) at least until the early 1800s, despite common apocrypha declaring otherwise. Oley had taken over Mohll's business:
"Newcastle Courant (16th May, 1724) - "To be sold, a sword grinding mill with about eight acres of ground, a very good head of water situated on the Derwentwater in the County of Durham. Also a very good house etc., all now within possession of William Mohll at Shotley Bridge..."

The Oleys were doing very well, so much so that a leading, local engraving company, 'Beilby', sent Thomas Bewick (now a local engraving hero) to work directly under the Oleys. This from Richardson:
Thomas Bewick in his memoirs tells us that in 1767, one of the first jobs he was put-to was "etching sword blades for William and Nicholas Oley, sword manufacturers of Shatley Bridge" (sic).

Also this: a unique glass tumbler, now in the boardroom of Wilkinson Sword Ltd. London, was made by the Beilbys and it can be seen by the inscriptions on the glass that it was presented to William and Ann Oley in the year 1767. On one side of the glass is "Success to the Swordmakers" and on the other side there are the initials of William and Ann Oley with the date 1767 - in the same fashion as upon the wall of Cutler's Hall, built in the same year: 100 years after the arrival in SB.

Moving forward we have this – again from Richardson:
William died on 13th August 1810, three days after making his will. He left his sole possessions to his wife and in the event of her death he detailed all that would be left to his three sons - William, Nicholas and Christopher and to his daughter Mary Brown. Her share - in the case of her death - was to pass to her son, William Oley Brown. In the terms of the day and especially within the confines of a village, William Oley left a fortune. Besides houses - which were copyhold premises with workshops (three) together with land bounding up to the mill races, and a butcher's shop as well as other houses (tenanted) bordering on the Plantation he left amounts of money to each. I found the item, 'all my tools except the old bellows, which is to be shared equally' interesting and I also found most interesting, 'as well as the two old shops now in ruin' (Were these the derelict first sword mills?). Mention too is made of a 'Grinding mill and warehouse against the bridge with the ground above'.

Richardson doubts, however, whether the Oleys ever owned the pub, Crown and Crossed Swords, despite its name being changed to celebrate the family's alleged victory in the competition; why he should doubt this I do not know but hopefully I will find out when I gain access to the SB village archives this week. Its name-change does give weight to the story of the competition though.

Christopher Oley built, in 1814, a small chapel in his garden; subsequently enlarged in 1855 – probably by Joseph Oley – to "The Chapel on the Hill".

So, despite numerous chroniclers insisting that everything was in unstoppable decline throughout the first quarter of the 1700s, it would appear that certainly did not apply to the Oleys. However, prosperity was slow in coming, and many Oleys moved out of the area to find alternative employment; in particular one of the Richards (of which there were a few) who moved to Birmingham to begin work in 1724; taking, as I've already mentioned, much knowledge and expertise and, although Ibrahiim and I disagree upon this, the image of the family fox, rapidly purloined by the Harveys it seems. I need to find with whom Richard Oley was working.

urbanspaceman

20th November 2017, 01:13 PM

forgot to attach this photo[IMG]

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

20th November 2017, 01:48 PM

That is a great bit of research Keith... especially on the glass vessel. I think you are close to cracking the enigma on the ceiling artwork in the Cutlers Hall.. I reckon it was borrowed/ taken by Samuel Harvey shortly after it was placed on the ceiling thus events rolled up fast and furious...and the Shotley sword smiths never got a chance to utilize that mark... The chapel on the hill at the top of Kiln Street I think...that was closed.. The Hotel was two drinking houses and the two were amalgamated... One was The Commercial and the other The Crown and Crossed Swords. I believe that was a coaching House and it was called the Sword Inn ...changed as we were saying when the crown was won for top sword.

urbanspaceman

20th November 2017, 02:41 PM

Bezdek doesn't list Richard Oley as working in Birmingham, I got that info from a source that needs to be verified (this week at SB again) unless anyone can help.

I need to find details of this competition: surely some record must have been kept somewhere. Who sponsored it? Was it the Tower? Was it the London Cutlers? Hmmm! Board of Ordnance is obviously favourite.

Nicholas Oley and all the Oleys interviewed in the 18/1900s insisted the story of the blade in the hat was true (well they would, wouldn't they?). My question is: what sort of a hat was it that could retain that degree of spring tension; unless the coil was fastened then placed in the hat... more likely. It was said a vice was needed to uncoil it and someone nearly lost their fingers trying.

Re. the chest of swords discovered in the 1850s: the museum denies all knowledge of them, so I am waiting on the return of the family at this week's end; maybe they are still hidden in the Priest Hole.

It's all slow but definitely real progress I feel.

urbanspaceman

23rd November 2017, 01:57 PM

No additional knowledge to report; just a note to say that Alnwick Castle and their incorporated Northumberland Fusiliers Museum have no Shotley bridge swords to offer me.
The Bowes Museum deny all knowledge of the bequest of a chest of SB swords, destined for a Jacobite militia, so the pertinent family are investigating.
I'm continuing to explore all public and private collections.
I'm waiting to access the SB village archives any day now.
Meantime, I'm getting all my information into a chronological order.
Meantime also, the Durham County Council are proceeding with their plan to link the length of the Derwent Valley's history to SB which is conveniently in the middle and was the beginning of the iron and steel industry anyway. They have hopes for a permanent exhibition based in the village; so perhaps this will help bring swords out of hiding (there are a lot of SB swords in private ownership around this area) and we can maybe establish a definite indication of markings, dates and styles.

Hotspur

23rd November 2017, 04:10 PM

Ummm, if the Shotley Bridge makers were of the families migrating from Solingen, one can be fairly certain no swords were made and sold to a sympathizer/patron of a Jacobite militia (religious contradictions).

Cheers

GC

urbanspaceman

23rd November 2017, 10:44 PM

I have to disagree for two - possibly three - reasons:
Primarily, the smiths did not (ostensibly) work for themselves, they were under contract, first to the initial syndicate, later to the Blade Bank, finally to Cotesworth: a very greedy, powerful and influential local merchant who would have sold his Granny as the saying goes. It was not until the end of the first quarter that the Oleys became autonomous.
Two, their immediate neighbour was the Earl of Derwentwater, an extremely powerful Jacobite. Should they have refused him, yet continued to supply the government, he could have wiped out the entire Shotley Bridge community and been back in time for breakfast, and no-one could have lifted a finger to help nor complained about it afterwards.
Except possibly Blackett, who was the Sherriff of Newcastle and a government supporter. But he was also an opportunist and a survivor: just like the entire population of Newcastle, who have been on whatever side is winning since the days of the Romans. Living on a border like ours, people quickly learned to keep their head's down, or lose them - ultimately, as the Earl did... on Tower Hill in 1716!
The chest of swords in question was waiting for a group of Jacobite supporters a few miles south of Newcastle, hidden in a Priest Hole; and probably with the defeat of Derwentwater, never retrieved. My knowledge of this area during this period is sketchy at best, but I will know more when I speak more with the family who own the Priest Hole, who's unbroken lineage goes back to pre. Norman times.
It's also quite possible the German smiths were forging for Derwentwater surreptitiously; it may account for the huge amounts of stock they were using and supposedly unable to pay for; perhaps it was all subterfuge. Tucked away up in the valley, they could easily have been playing both sides.
Rotterdam (for Swedish and Remscheid steel imports) was the bigger problem when it came to religious politics, hence possibly their reliance on Hayward's stock and his usurious prices.
Finally, it has to be said, when it comes down to buttering one's bread, and given the labour problems and religious favouritism back in Solingen, it definitely inspires a great degree of pragmatism.

Hotspur

23rd November 2017, 11:01 PM

That reads as a decent novel ;) Show me the money!

Cheers

GC

urbanspaceman

23rd November 2017, 11:46 PM

Yes, the money!
There are three things going-on here on Tyneside:
one, I'm trying to compile the definitive account of the SB swordmakers;
two, there is a plan afoot to create a permanent display/exhibition/attraction in Shotley Bridge;
three, a novelist is setting a story around the Solingen immigrants.
Actually, four things:
a local heritage-memories/local-history lecturer is planning a new program based on the - yes, you've guessed it - SB swordmakers.
Naturally, where two women and one county council are involved, guess who is doing all the donkey-work?
That's not true really.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

24th November 2017, 03:40 PM

That is quite an amazing development Keith.

I agree to much of your reasons why Shotley was not supplying the Jacobites although it is a protracted group who also seeded much of the border riever activity or at least the Moss Troopers who were another group on the border lands very much on the Durham Northumberland doorstep.

Generally the Shotley people will have wanted to retain their heads! and with Newcastle bristling with troops they certainly had to keep their heads down.

I think the smuggling is another league and seen as semi allowable and in the case of the Shotley team they got away with that by having people in high places... I also suspect the ruse of the hollow blades was half myth and half true since the word "fuller" before 1850 was "hollow". A sort of deliberate subterfuge that fitted the mix-up nicely.

In the situation of what was stamped on which blades I have to note that Shotley did not use the bushy tail fox and that was the sole domain of Birmingham although it may possibly have become mixed up in a number of blades out of Hounslow although if evidence is available I would be ready to concede it may have been used elsewhere...or traded. Usually it was with the addition of SH stamped in the body of the Fox; Samuel Harvey Snr or his son Samuel...

Shotley Bridge used the hammered and chiseled Passau Wolf in stick form either applied there or on smuggled Solingen blades or both.

I say this with the proviso that anything can happen in this story and I am ready to believe what transpires ! The Duck and Crossed Sausages even !! :)

urbanspaceman

25th November 2017, 09:31 PM

I've just had a thought regarding the arrival of Richard Oley in Birmingham in 1724 and the apparent lack of connection between the Shotley Bridge Mohll and the Brummie Mole.
Is it possible that it was Oley who became Mole? It would explain the lack of evidence linking the two Mohll/Moles. Richard Oley may well have had his name corrupted by local accents, vernacular and domesticities and ended up with Mole. Just a thought.
Any Brummies reading this want a genealogical endeavour to pursue... I doubt it.

Hotspur

26th November 2017, 01:43 AM

Any Brummies reading this want a genealogical endeavour to pursue... I doubt it.

Show me the money! I thought this was your baby.

The British History Online link and a bit of plumbing the depths might yield information. On the other hand, a lot of genealogical research these days is pay for play. I have done work (gratis) for some threads here and continue to do so but it might be some years before your questions re Oley might hit the bottom of a very long list of things to do. If I find a family tree for you this weekend, you owe me. Seriously.

A slip of the tongue omitting an M to come up with Ole' is kind of hard in any accent, as one has a consonant. You seem to be concentrating on the wildest explanations possible instead of digging deeper on a topic (such as early hollow ground blades).

Time permitted lad, I'll take a look at your latest request (to do your project).

Take my surname of Cleeton and explain how that could be somehow be written or associated with Eaton. Cleaton, Cleoton and say, the Clee hills outside of Cleeton-St Mary. Or perhaps the manor of Cleoton or Cletune now underwater off Skipsea (1066 and all that). Could any be be mistaken as originally lacking a consonant? Back to the Halstatt era and the Black Sea with the current surname Kleeman. Always a consonant.

Cheers

GC

ha, in the first five minutes Oliey (not on Ancestry.com)

Hotspur

26th November 2017, 02:08 AM

This isn't your's is it?
http://www.exodus2013.co.uk/the-shotely-bridge-swordmakers/

Note the date 1628 and fill in some blanks.

Cheers

GC

urbanspaceman

26th November 2017, 09:36 PM

Hi Glenn. Please don't concern yourself with my fanciful theory; I agree that the consonant is the clincher, but I was just hoping for a break. They are very keen, over here, to retain the story about Mohll becoming Mole at whatever cost.
With regard to that 'Exodus' article: no, it is yet another catalogue of fallacies and falsehoods. The 19th C. chronicler in question (married to an Oley) misread the entry in the parish register which admittedly was faint, but it said Cler - for Cleric - not Oley.
The Shotley Bridge endeavour began in 1685.
The Vintings/Vintons were mining and forging iron and lead around there, certainly since the 1500s; and local historians will tell you that there were forges going back to before the Christian era.
We did have Germans working in the glass industry in Newcastle itself - primarily the Tyzacks - a good hundred years earlier, but Shotley Bridge sword-making with the Solingen immigrants didn't start till 1687.
BTW. You're not from Birmingham, are you?

Hotspur

26th November 2017, 10:14 PM

Nope. Originallly mid west US

urbanspaceman

1st December 2017, 11:08 PM

During my endless searches for examples of SB blades I occasionally come across interesting examples and such was the case this evening.
The first is a Scottish (long) dirk dating to c.1720 according to the dealer made from a cut-down backsword blade.
(Apparently, after swords were banned in Scotland following the 1715 rebellion, attempts were made to lengthen the dirk to give a degree of decent protection; hence this example.)
So-far, so well-known, amongst the cognoscenti; the curiosity is the marking on the blade: see image.
The second is described by the dealer as a late 17th C. Shotley Bridge Smallsword with 'TLE xx on one side and Bridg xx on the other plus a running fox; see image.

urbanspaceman

1st December 2017, 11:16 PM

sorry, this image didn't upload the first time.
The second is described by the dealer as a late 17th C. Shotley Bridge Smallsword with 'TLE xx on one side and Bridg xx on the other plus a running fox; see image.
Sorry the resolution is poor but it's a bushy tailed fox.

Hotspur

4th December 2017, 04:54 PM

urbanspaceman

4th December 2017, 05:05 PM

Do we think this may be a re-hilting of a cut-down broadsword blade?
Can you tell by observation of the blade?

Hotspur

5th December 2017, 04:29 PM

Do we think this may be a re-hilting of a cut-down broadsword blade?
No

Can you tell by observation of the blade?
Yes

urbanspaceman

5th December 2017, 08:57 PM

So, we have an image of a genuine SB small-sword then: surely a rarity.
Has anyone else ever seen such a thing?

urbanspaceman

14th December 2017, 09:19 AM

Paused for holidays.

Maddison

14th April 2018, 09:01 AM

fernando

14th April 2018, 11:58 AM

Welcome to the forum, Maddison :) .
Let us see if urbanspaceman has already ended his holidays ;) .
... Or others that may help you finding the right sword :cool: .

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

18th January 2019, 07:57 AM

Good Morning All, I have come across this discussion while searching for / trying to find any swords made at Shotley Bridge. I recently bought the site of the former mill and I am in the process of rebuilding the mill on the back of the Mill Race Cottage and a small cottage on the bridge. I would love a sword and some history for the walls of the cottage. I can see lots of recommendations for book which I will purchase. I am totally new to swords what is the likely hood I will find one I could buy? @Urbanspace if you wish to come down to the site please do let me know and I can arrange a visit.

Hello Mr Maddison and greetings … I believe your ancestor was the famous gentleman who was unfortunately caught having ridden his horse as far as about Edmundbyers but was caught by troopers in pursuit... His rather tragic story is very much part of traditional memory in Shotley Bridge thus you are very much part of the amazing story of there. It is interesting that you are building a house in the shadow of the Derwent not a stones throw from the Sword Makers in Wood Street. I hope you are well and just now I will speak to Keith who has been looking at German swordmakers in Solingen etc and apologies for not getting on line here sooner as I have been away.

Jim McDougall

18th January 2019, 09:29 PM

Hmm, and not a hollow sword grind but rather a hexagonal cross section.. ;)

Cheers

GC

Well it has indeed been a LOOOOONG intermission :) but hope we can get back to this great discussion. What it great is that Keith, Ibrahiim and Mr, Madisson (I hope he comes back) are natives to these very areas of Shotley, and while obviously very long ago, its fascinating to have the present day contexts added.

As GC has noted on this 'Shotley Bridge' smallsword the blade is indeed hexagonally sectioned rather than 'hollow ground. The figure on the blade is the 'bushy tail fox' rather than the running wolf typically presumed on blades from Shotley.
The hexagon section in of the style produced typically in Solingen in the 18th c. if I understand correctly, but the BTF (bushy tail fox) is from strictly Birmingham use. Perhaps this blade was imported from Solingen (as many were) into Birmingham, but the BTF was it seems placed by the makers in Birmingham (Samuel Harvey and Dawes) but I believe on their own blades.
It would seem this sword was hilted by local artisans, but why purported to be Shotley is unclear. Obviously the value to collectors would increase with the Shotley attribution.

Good to see this thread back 'on gear', and look forward to continuing this look into British sword and blade production on 17th-18th c. This is a sword 'mystery' seldom deeply attended in references, so looking forward to contributions from others with these interests as well as more from GC and Mr. Madisson.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

15th February 2019, 11:09 AM

:shrug:

urbanspaceman

15th February 2019, 10:41 PM

As may easily be discerned, I have been away a long time, but my research into The Shotley Bridge Swordmakers has continued apace, albeit with a three month hiatus beginning last November.
I have accumulated a vast amount of research material, and reached several contentious conclusions regarding the SB story as told over the last 300 years or more.
I probably have BBC4 on board with regard to a documentary; although you never can tell for sure with Aunty.
I have still got a lot of research to do - in particular in Solingen - and some of it will require a professional researcher to achieve some degree of irrefutable evidence; again, the Beeb may be of use here, but I also have two or three eminent individuals in the pipeline waiting for my resurgence.
As I am setting off on further travels soon, I doubt I will have much to offer this thread for the next few weeks or more. However, my final travels will be to Klingenthal and Solingen, then London and hopefully on return the final pieces of the jigsaw will be put in place.
The Royal Armoury publications division are interested in the book when it is ready and again, hopefully, they may be able to assist me in various vague areas.
One of the most trying issues regarding SB swords is that apart from the initial output that were actually inscribed with the place name there is - to date - no way of determining what is an SB blade and what isn't. Tang markings may well prove illuminating but getting the funding to scan museum items may well prove a bit difficult... but not impossible - especially if the BBC comes on-board. Watch this space folks.

laurenbrown90uk

8th June 2020, 10:21 PM

Sorry to jump on a old thread but it's been lovely to read. I'm keen to talk to you all and hopefully learn about my family. Adam oley who came from Germany is my 7x great grandfather. I'm doing alot of work on my family tree and find it all fascinating. I'm hoping to be able to learn more about them. I hope this is OK to post. I read a legend about the sword battle and was wondering if anyone knows more about the legend. Some say it was a William oley, some say a Robert oley. The only robert oley I can find evidence for is my 5x great grandfather. He was son of John oley who was son of the Adam ey who came from Germany. Thanks for.Reading

urbanspaceman

26th June 2020, 08:29 PM

Hi. Lauren I sent you a private message with my email address so I could help you with your Oley search but you did not respond or did not receive.
Let me know if you wish to commune.

Peter Hudson

2nd October 2023, 11:43 PM

Hi Kieth ... Before you started to unpack the details of this work Forum had nothing in its archives about this subject. The Swordmakers of Shotley Bridge turns out to be a cornerstone and key to the development of English Swords. Long may it continue to amaze and impress readers and followers of this fine work.

Its time we got together again for lunch at the Crown and Crossed Swords...

Regards, Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson

3rd October 2023, 05:45 PM

German Sword-Smiths in Shotley Bridge By Keith Fisher

To refresh readers on Keiths amazing book on this important Swordmaker

please see https://shotleybridgevillagetrust.com/2022/07/29/german-sword-smiths-in-shotley-bridge/

This is a free illustration of this key sword maker at your fingertips...

Regards, Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson

4th November 2023, 01:34 PM

Keith, As you know the lintel above 44 WOOD STREET vanished in the late 50s with the demolition of all the industrial /swordmakers houses. My question is that the inscription above the door mentioned a date of 1591 and fortunately you have that in your book. Was this an important date? or is it a Psalm. i.e. the 91st Psalm? 15.91

Regards Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson

4th November 2023, 01:44 PM

Yesterday we spoke about other buildings near The Crown and Crossed Swords.

As you know this was two buildings notably The Crown and Crossed Swords originally called The Swords and the next door Commercial Hotel.

There were a few other some quite substantial dwellings between the car park and the narrower road (in those earlier days) which were overlooking the Bridge Inn ..These were quite substantial houses and would have given the feeling of a centre village format more like a village square. I have a couple of pictures to illustrate that but the system isnt playing... so I will try a web reference... .

urbanspaceman

4th November 2023, 01:47 PM

Hi Peter. The only foto we have of the lintel is very poor and the 6 looks like a 5.
It was 1691 when the building was dedicated.
There was another lintel recorded prior to it being lost and that includes a quote from Psalms:

DEUTSCHLAND IST UNEVER VATTERLANDS
SOLINGEN IST DIE STADT VERLASSEN
HERR BEHUT DEINEN AUSGANG
UND EINGANG

GERMANY IS OUR FATHERLAND
SOLINGEN IS THE TOWN FORSAKEN
LORD PROTECT YOUR ENTRY
AND EXIT

"The last line is taken from Psalm 121, verse 8:"
"The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in
from this time forth and even for evermore."

urbanspaceman

4th November 2023, 01:51 PM

That is a very welcome issue.
I look forward to seeing those fotos.

Peter Hudson

4th November 2023, 02:35 PM

Ah yes I see it on page77 of your book... Got that... The date of first Cutlers Hall dedicated by Adam Oley in Wood Street.. Thanks...

I cannot upload the pictures but you have it also outlined relating to the variety of names applied to The Crown and Crossed Swords and the next door Commercial Inn at page 78 of your book. At some point it became Commercial Hotel....Those buildings near the carpark are all disappeared now and the shops in the village centre have changed hands several times... I agree that the Wilsons shop was a hardware shop..and you know my views on the real reason that I reckon the Germans chose the Shotley Bridge location and unrelated to any of the previous theories. If they could have fitted a moat and searchlights around it Im sure they would have done so..

Peter Hudson

4th November 2023, 03:19 PM

Commercial Hotel.

Please see https://shotleybridgevillagetrust.com/plaques/crown-and-crossed-swords/#jp-carousel-4439

Other detail on this site are in my view incorrect as the new sign above the door was fitted at about 8am as I was standing outside waiting for the works bus to go to the new reservoir...in 1964 ..summer holiday job. That sign comprised a fairly lumpy and horrible crossed sword arrangement which is still there! Next door was the Crossed Swords... given the name The Crown and Crossed Swords.... at some stage. Opposite was The Kings Head on the Durham side of the Derwent which used to be called The Bridge End...

Peter Hudson

Peter Hudson

6th November 2023, 08:34 PM

231517
From a museum in Hawick in the Scottish Borders which will be an absolute must to visit when it opens in the new year. The Curator is Mr Brian Moffat an expert in all things Border Reivers...and a member of this Forum. Illustrated here are Swords of Shotley Bridge thus indicating probable strong links as Jacobite swords entering the Culloden sphere pre 1746.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

urbanspaceman

6th November 2023, 09:33 PM

The above sword was forged in Shotley Bridge by Adam Oligh for John Holles.
Although a staunch royalist, Holles was a devoted Protestant and supported Danby when he held York for Prince William during the Glorious Revolution in 1688.
His father-in-law had left all the Newcastle estates to Holles but not the title until 1694 when he became Duke of Newcastle.
Whether the swords were made for his militia in 1688 or after 1694 is not known, but regardless they were Shotley Bridge blades; I personally think the latter.
Lord Gort of Hamsterly Hall (adjacent to Shotley Bridge) collected several swords made in the village: the smuggled blades with the Passau Wolf remain in storage at the Laing Art Gallery (see image) but that back-sword (along with another) with only the script ,stayed with the descendants of Lord Gort who was, incidentally, younger brother of WW1 Victoria Cross hero Viscount Gort (John Vereker).

urbanspaceman

6th November 2023, 09:55 PM

Here is a Holles back-sword from the Laing.

Peter Hudson

6th November 2023, 11:02 PM

I see that Thomas Bewick has much work at the Laing. He was apprenticed to shotley sword makers and much involved in illustrations and engraving/ decorationon blades etc.

I have no proof at all that he was instrumental at bringing the emblem of the Running Fox ...we sometimes call the Bushytail Fox to the swords of Shotley Bridge ...except that he was probably the finest illustrator of wild animals in this country and was the source of many vast works on the subject.

Bewick also pointed to the fact that many retired sailors and soldiers took their knicknames from those various wild animals ...like Hawk, Wolf, Raven, Fox etc...

He wrote: A History of British Birds, A Conspiracy of Ravens: A Compendium of Collective Nouns for Birds, Uit de Hooglanden - Zes Schotse Fantastische Vertellingen, Memorial Edition of Thomas Bewick's Works: A Memoir of Thomas Bewick, Written by Himself. a New Ed., Prefaced and Annotated by Austin Dobson, My Life, The Fox at the Manger, Memorial Edition of Thomas Bewick's Works: A History of British Birds: Water Birds

My favourite is Memorial Edition of Thomas Bewick's Works: A Memoir of Thomas Bewick, Written by Himself. Chapter iv
states that he etched sword blades for W and N Oley at Shotley Bridge.

Regards Peter Hudson.

Brian Moffatt

7th November 2023, 07:02 PM

urbanspaceman

7th November 2023, 08:50 PM

[QUOTE=Peter Hudson;285862]
My favourite is Memorial Edition of Thomas Bewick's Works: A Memoir of Thomas Bewick, Written by Himself. Chapter iv
states that he etched sword blades for W and N Oley at Shotley Bridge.

Hi Peter. I also have that book... my only Bewick book.
It was Bewick's first job as an apprentice to the Beilbys; they were the company/family who presented the Oleys with the infamous glass that was on display in the entrance of Wilkinson Sword's factory up here, then the MD took it to the Joicey Museum to accompany the permanent exhibition of the SB enterprise AND DROPPED IT!
Bewick was etching and engraving in the same year as the glass was presented i.e. 1767.
I think the Beilbys meant the glass to celebrate a century of sword production and got the date wrong.
I also suspect there was a hiatus in the Wilsons' bloodline, as they did all the engraving and etching (and hilting) both before and after. Actually, they were doing all that work for Bertram's output before the Germans arrived in 1687.

Peter Hudson

8th November 2023, 07:55 PM

I once owned a longcase clock with a dial painted with birds by Bewick... but at the time I didn't realise it...
The backplate of the movement was cast with the name Beilby.. (more famous for glass enamelling.... and Bewick turned out to be his dial painter.

I swapped it with a friend for a Japanese bronze eagle... then found out about the Bewick connection ... I phoned him immediately but he had swopped it again.. and who knows where it ended up.

With regard to Holles and the Jacobites.... It is strongly suspected that Shotley was supplying the Jacobites...?

And... now this is now't more than speculation... but the easy way to cover up such a practice was simply to overproduce on a contract.. and pass the overrun on to whoever it suites...And for instance... the Governor of Tynemouth Castle was suspected of supporting the "Cause."
That practice still goes on today... "a little bit left over from a job."
Nothing changes...

Dear Brian, Indeed the Beilby/ Bewick stable created a great number of works on wildlife including portfolios on Birds and other animals . The subject that I looked at was the book on Quadrupeds which included The Fox. Of course this rang a very loud bell since the Running Fox interested me as the emblem on Shotley Bridge Sword blades.

I think there must have been swords squeaking out and into Jacobite hands
as Shotley Bridge was well placed to do so; secretly across the Derwent and on up to Scotland ...

Regards, Peter Hudson.

urbanspaceman

8th November 2023, 11:36 PM

As attractive as it is to associate Thomas Bewick with Oley's Bushy Tailed Fox, I'm afraid the first known incarnation (see lower pic) dates to the end of the 1600s; and the ubiquitous stylised version (which is certainly worthy of Bewick) begins in the 1740s when Bewick hadn't been born. His association with the Oleys was in 1767.

There is no question that the Jacobites were supplied by the SB endeavour. I have even begun to wonder if Harmon Mohll was not already smuggling in blades before Oley and his team arrived; it would certainly cement the desirability in everyone's imagination as to the suitability of the Derwent River location, but this is just my fanciful conjecture.
The 48 bundles of blades seized in 1703 when Mohll was arrested at the mouth of the Tyne were definitely destined for Jacobites... probably Blackett. Queen Anne confiscated them after Mohll was released.
Incidentally, Queen Anne herself was a Jacobite and wanted the crown to pass to the Old Pretender (who would have been James III) on her death.

urbanspaceman

8th November 2023, 11:46 PM

Just for reference purposes: the glass was enamelled by Mary Beilby.
The inscription reads:
SUCCESS TO THE SWORDMAKERS on one side, and:
O
W A
1767
on the other side, which stands for OLEY - WILLIAM - ANNE.

Brian Moffatt

9th November 2023, 07:59 AM

Dear Brian, Indeed the Beilby/ Bewick stable created a great number of works on wildlife including portfolios on Birds and other animals . The subject that I looked at was the book on Quadrupeds which included The Fox. Of course this rang a very loud bell since the Running Fox interested me as the emblem on Shotley Bridge Sword blades.

I think there must have been swords squeaking out and into Jacobite hands
as Shotley Bridge was well placed to do so; secretly across the Derwent and on up to Scotland ...

Regards, Peter Hudson.

Hello Peter,
I've added new photo's of the "Gort" halberd to my posting.. the inscription is now more visible but still just as enigmatic.
I'll get round to the other two eventually... but pressure of work means that they will have to stay on the back burner for a while, since getting the Museum up and running has to take priority if we are to get it off the ground by early next year...

My own take on all of the the Shotley business, would be to find out a great deal more about Mr Bertram his products, and his connections....

If anyone comes across a certain Gilbert Charlton MacDonald at Shotley Bridge post 1745.. I would be much obliged if they could let me know... since he is a Great Great whatever of mine on my Mothers side...
I saw him described as a "Shingler" at Shotley Bridge years back but lost the reference in the depths of an old computer and and simply cannot find it again!
Shinglers, I believe, pounded the "Iron" to remove slag inclusions....
His presence at Shotley is a long story way outside the scope of this forum, but it does involve the '45 and escape from hanging ...Etc!
The "Charlton" was picked up from the Charltons of Hesleyside....
Cheers,
Brian.

urbanspaceman

9th November 2023, 02:58 PM

Hi Brian. Hope you haven't dropped any glass on your foot/feet.
I know you are too busy to start reading my book but I will send you a copy anyway as amongst other questions you have asked there are details/answers of the Bertram saga.
Pretty much everything that can be known about this remarkable family is in my book... obviously, because along with the Vintons we see the true beginnings of the Shotley Bridge endeavour - many years before Johannes Dell and his mates arrived in 1685.
Just a teaser: his name was actually Berhtraban which is old High German; he was born and raised in Remscheid, which was the iron and steel working area of the Wupper Valley.
His output from his Derwent Valley forge(s): Allensford, Blackhall and Derwentcote, was known as 'Newcastle Steel' and was universally acknowledged as the world's finest. (see picture)
Incidentally, the use of the word 'shear' in describing steel derives from the Yorkshire textile industry's use for cutting-tool standards.

Brian Moffatt

9th November 2023, 09:33 PM

Aye Keith...
So I should start looking for "Bertram era" swords on my travels....?
Be interesting to try and work out the blade construction...

Do they have anything to do with the Bertrams up by Ford?
Always thought of that branch as "reiving stock" with that "Richard Nixon" look that characterises the Armstrongs.
Mate of mine from my London days....long lost touch with, was one of those Bertrams...

Amazing how these genes pass down.. often folk wonder how I guess their surnames just by looking at them... Fosters in particular....
Sorry... I'm rambling..still got the dreaded "brain (Brian) fog" post Covid.
All the Best,
Brian

Peter Hudson

15th April 2024, 03:34 AM

Keith I think a visit to The Hawick museum is in order...

Oh by the way I SEE A number of specialists on the web now admitting that the running Fox was applied by Shotley Bridge Sword Makers... even The British Museum!
I focuss on Bewick......and from his expertise as the author of World Quadrupeds and as he was apprenticed to Oley as an engraver ...and how amazing some of the sword blade animals were ...On looking at Bewick s sketches of Foxes and in fact Dogs it occured to me that this could be where it all started for the Shotley Bridge Running Fox or what we know it as The Bushy Tailed Fox in a bid to differentiate from The Passau Wolf.

Reference your post earlier on the glassware done by Mary Beilby thinking again about the Bewick potential as the originator of Oleys Running Fox..

I have to say that these days finding any reference of Bewick working with Oley at SB is not easy as I think much of the notes on that subject have been erased.. Anyway after about an hour searching I found a short burst at https://www.gutenberg.org/files/60075/60075-h/60075-h.htm at volume 4. but nothing substantial...

There are a few interesting names that appear including the Names of both Belbys and both were in glass production/ decoration as per your post on the glasswork above. In his memoirs Bewick mentions William Harvey an Engraver apprentice of Bewick but who went off to Birmingham ...and I wondered if that was the William Harvey relative of Samuel Harvey SH of Swordmaking fame ....?? The plot thickens...I placed the William Harvey letterhead earlier in this thread and that proves he was a sword maker etc etc..SEE post 53.

Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson

17th April 2024, 12:41 AM

Please see post 53 To this and the information in post 321 above...some clarity...On W. HARVEY HIGH ST. DERITEND, BIRMINGHAM, SWORDMAKER;
and the Conundrum of W.HARVEY who appears there as a swordmaker and with the co incidental same name of an engraver who worked under Bewick etc etc ...
At last I have a clearer idea who this Sword Maker was and it can be seen at https://www.antique-swords.com/v09-1821-pattern-british-light-cavalry-troopers-saber-harvey.html what sort of swords he made In a parallel search I also realised that the W Harvey mentioned by Thomas Bewick and who was one of his apprentice engravers is not the same W Harvey... which tidies up that somewhat. Peter Hudson.

.

Triarii

17th April 2024, 03:49 PM

Ref #310.
Can I clarify something please. Is that third from left an earlier hilt with a later SB blade? The style appears to be mid C17th so-called Hounslow hanger but the discussion indicates its an SB blade?

Thanks.

urbanspaceman

24th April 2024, 10:39 AM

Hello. Yes, it is indeed an old hilt on a new blade, a common occurrence and very confusing at times.
This group of swords were collected by Lord Gort - younger brother of Viscount Gort of famous military history - who lived close by Shotley Bridge in Hamsterly Hall.
I'll pause here because I want to locate some images to post.

urbanspaceman

24th April 2024, 10:50 AM

Here are additional images from the Royal Armouries in Leeds showing a Mortuary hilt on one of those first batch of Solingen made blades with a Shotley Bridge script.

urbanspaceman

24th April 2024, 11:06 AM

Those blades (and there were not a lot of them) were brought by Harmon Mohll at the time of the arrival of the Solingen diaspora in 1687.
They were destined for Jacobite upper classes around northern England.
The 'horseman's' sword was the most common and I have seen a dozen of them (there were more with blades made 'in' SB) during my research.
What has come to light just recently is this:
a couple of years ago I bought a sword casket at auction that had originally come from Wentworth-Woodhouse (the sword - a horseman's sword - is on display in Bamborough Castle). It had a bronze plaque that states Shotley Bridge circa.1680.
The big surprise came when Paul Heatherington (one of my collaborators and a SB resident) finally persuaded a friend of his to sell him his horseman's sword and it came with an exact same casket with an exact same plaque.
This needs thinking about.
BTW
The caskets are superb mahogany and expertly crafted: see images.

Triarii

25th April 2024, 01:54 PM

Thankyou.
Wonder if that mortuary style hilt has been re-bladed or they were still in vogue in the 1680s. I thought that in Britain they'd faded out in the 1660s, though were still in use in the area of Germany until the 1680s.

urbanspaceman

25th April 2024, 04:12 PM

I have no idea when the Mortuary style hilt fell out of fashion.
I have been informed, and I raised this issue on the forum but no-one responded, that Mortuary hilts were made on the Hebridean island of Islay where there had been a blacksmiths armoury for generations. Many Scottish clans were armed by this blacksmiths.
Maybe someone was keen to have this style of hilt and acquired a new one but it is far more likely that it was a family heirloom needing a new blade.

Jim McDougall

26th April 2024, 05:32 PM

Well noted Keith! and the idea of 'slippers' mounting hilts on Islay is pretty exciting! I have wondered where to discover more on this as I have a keen interest in the Isles. As we know, the 'mortuary' (a Victorian collectors 'catch' term) was actually a hilt style in use early in the 17th, before the death of Charles I, whose likeness on many of these was proposed as the source of that term.

In most cases, popular hilt styles did not suddenly 'go out of fashion' as suggested in some literature. With tradition, styles and fashion tended to predominate in 'periods' (another vague historical delineation) and often continued in favor contemporary to other forms supplanting the forms.

The case you note of old hilts being mounted with more modern blades was actually common, as well as vice versa, heirloom blades in newer hilts.
While fashion of course prevails popularly, tradition is much stronger and much part of the ethos and honor held by the arme blanche.

urbanspaceman

26th April 2024, 06:48 PM

It was battering my brain working out why, and who, and where, so I want to present some facts regarding the provenance of these two identical caskets.
Obviously made some considerable time after the Germans brought those blades into Shotley Bridge in 1687 as they have estimated the date as: circa.1680.
My casket was made for Thomas Wentworth, 1st Marquess of Rockingham (b.1693) South Yorkshire, who's father had apparently inherited the sword (s) from his uncle, 2nd Earl of Stafford, who had been a close friend and supporter of King James II.
The only conclusion I can achieve is that both swords eventually belonged to the above Thomas Wentworth and/or his family.
It remains puzzling why one sword and casket should end up back in Shotley Bridge, and the other remain in the Wentworth-Woodhouse mansion until the mid.1960s when the sword was given to the Royal Armouries in nearby Leeds and the casket sold in an estate sale but remaining locally until I bought it recently.
The reason I have devoted this effort in sourcing the history is because it indicates distinctly how so much reverence was attached to these swords that expensive caskets were commissioned many years later to put them on display in the mansion house.
Of course, the swords may have remained in hiding long after the above and until any suspicion of Jacobite affiliations in the family had long been forgotten!

urbanspaceman

26th April 2024, 11:07 PM

My collaborator Paul bought his sword and casket from the son of a man called Stafford.
Reference my short history above... that is quite some coincidence!

Jim McDougall

27th April 2024, 03:27 AM

Keith, I became interested in the British swords of Hounslow and Shotley about 40 years ago, and while I was able to plow through most of the known published esoterica on these areas of sword making in England, between the 'lore' and huge gaps......overall this was simply a huge mystery.

There it remained, and the mention of either of these centers or their history was usually brief or virtually cliche'. While some of the venerable arms sages wrote very informative works on these topics, they could only go so far using established material.

Your study on these topics these past years has been UNPARALLELED !
to say the least, and as a native son of Shotley, you have brought this history to the fore, and literally preserved it through your discoveries and remarkably well discerned collection of key examples worthy of any world class museum.

I have been wanting to say this publicly for some time, and wanted to thank you, for putting this history into its proper perspective! well done Keith!

urbanspaceman

27th April 2024, 11:05 AM

Jim McDougall

27th April 2024, 02:27 PM

Thank-you Jim... but you failed to mention that without you and Peter mentoring me throughout I may well have fallen at the first hurdle. As it was, I had put the entire project on the back burner, considering it beyond my capabilities, and it was only when the Convid lock-down occurred that I brought it to the fore again. Thank-you once again. You and Peter continue to fly my flag and it is much appreciated.

You bet Keith! it was indeed the 'four'musketeers' !! (not sure which of us was D'Artagnan). Still, you ran point on the research and ESPECIALLY the collecting. You found examples that should be collectively in museum holdings as they totally support the theories that you put forth in entirely revising much of the commonly held lore on Hounslow and Shotley. It has been one of the most exciting and intriguing adventures I have experienced in my lifelong fascination with the history of the sword.
The book is FANTASTIC! and has inspired renewed interest in the Shotley Bridge community where both you and Peter are native sons and have so proudly represented your home.

Peter Hudson

27th April 2024, 10:56 PM

Hello Jim and Keith...

Last week I met Keith for lunch at the famous pub in Shotley Bridge albeit in the section that used to be called Commercial Hotel. The sign outside was changed in the summer of 64 and any flat and painted sign boards were removed...In fact I recall that before that there was a sign still seen on some old fotos of the flat painted name of that part of the hotel The new sign is infact not a bad effort at a pair of swords below a crown but is nothing like the original sign which oddly enough was about 20 yards further down the building above the main pub doors and was two basket hilts below a crown..In this case the items making up the sign were realistic but workshop made sword likenesses but in the form of Basket Hilts. Previous to this date there was another name switch when the name of the property was Commercial Hotel and the other part The Swords. There are no pictures to my knowledge of the original pub sign with the Basket Hilts...Actually a number of other organisations adopted all or part of the Crown and Crossed Swords as company Logos such as The Shotley Bridge Hospital and The Richard Murray Maternity Hospital...and Wilkinson Swords adopted the crossed swords without a crown...Peter Hudson.

urbanspaceman

29th April 2024, 04:45 PM

My collaborator Paul bought his sword and casket from the son of a man called Stafford.
Reference my short history above... that is quite some coincidence!

My apologies for my carelessness; it was the Earl of Strafford not Stafford. Ooops!

Peter Hudson

30th April 2024, 02:31 PM

There is an excellent picture of the subject at https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/use-this-image/?mkey=mw06088

urbanspaceman

30th April 2024, 06:23 PM

Hi Peter. Thank-you, a good shot; I will send it to Paul.
Curious sword he is wearing.
I often wonder just how accurate artists were; artistic license prevailing always.

Jim McDougall

1st May 2024, 01:08 AM

I think as a rule, in accord with the late Nick Norman ("Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820", 1979) he based his entire work on hilts taken from portraits as in his view portraits of individuals tended to be accurate, including the swords they wore. In other artwork, especially Rembrandt for example, his 'license' was well known.

Sets the mind to wondering!

Radboud

1st May 2024, 02:52 AM

On the artistic licence, I think a lot will depend on the wealth of the customer. The less wealthy the more generic the clothes and accessories will be.

One needs to consider that most of the art work would have been completed without the subject present. There would have been a sitting to get the face and hands correct, but the rest would have been completed from props. So in the case of a wealthier subject the artist may have had a studio onsite and had direct access to their clothes and accruments.

For a less wealthy subject, they may have needed to taken drawings and notes on site and then completed the work in their own studio, or had a studio sitting for the basics then completed the rest from their own props.

urbanspaceman

3rd May 2024, 11:47 AM

Thank-you Radboud. Makes perfect sense.
I do, however, see hilts on aristocracy portraits here in England that are totally unknown to me, although I am new to this game.
Referring back to that portrait, it is difficult to establish - to my untrained eye - where the hilt starts and ends; can anyone define it for me please?

urbanspaceman

3rd May 2024, 11:49 AM

Here is the portrait in question, save anyone chasing the link (thank-you by the way Peter).

Jim McDougall

3rd May 2024, 03:37 PM

With regard to artistic license, this is a very valid consideration with respect to the viability of classifying and identifying swords from portraits and artwork.
Radboud has brought up most salient points, and while in many cases, the swords represented in portraits may indeed be reliable. However reading through the late Nick Norman's introduction to "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820"(1980), he notes the caveats involved in using these sources as final categorization and dating of forms.

The intention of art is not only to carry out an accurate representation of a subject, but to convey other aspects that promote more subjective reactions.

This painting of Thomas Wentworth, First Earl of Stratford, was painted by the famed Sir Anthony van Dyck, who was the painter for Charles I in 1632.
Van Dyck, was well known not only for his art, but popularization of his recognizable beard style, which became de riguer among English cavaliers and indeed Charles I himself. Interestingly we see likenesses of these in figures on many swords of the period, including the familiar 'mortuary hilts'.

As far as I can find in Norman there is no direct match to the hilt of the sword seen in this painting, however p.129 (fig. 27) there is an Italian rapier of mid 16th c. with a somewhat similar pommel. Here I would note that Van Dyck had been studying in Genoa for some time before returning to England in 1632.

This rapier depicted has the similar high relief oblong pommel seen on earlier rapier hilts, as mentioned many Italian, as well as the long quillon arms of these rapiers. Here the similarity ends as there is no knuckleguard, nor the other guard bars typically seen on the more developed hilt systems.
Thus, while seemingly this appears to be an Italian style rapier, as yet not positively identified, it seems likely the image was based on those forms.
Whether or not an actual sword was worn and drawn from, we cannot know for sure.

What is interesting though is that Charles I, a Stuart, had strong ties to Italy
of course, and Italian influences important. While at this time of the painting (1633) the dish hilt and lighter transitional rapiers were in vogue, this form of more traditional 16th century rapier, mostly Italian, would well represent the profound inclinations to those swords would have presumed a stately presence to the figure.

While these details are in of course different light from the discussion in post #330, they are still relevant to the context of the swords and climate of the English court in the 1630s, and Hounslow period.

urbanspaceman

3rd May 2024, 06:46 PM

We went down the wrong road:
the portrait is of 1st Earl of Strafford (a supporter of Charles 1st) who was executed at Tower Hill in 1641.
His son, the 2nd Earl (died 1695) was a good friend of James 2nd and he owned the Shotley Bridge sword which passed to his nephew Thomas Watson (1693 - 1750) who had the caskets made.
There is a better image of the 1st earl portrait which looks like the original; the portrait inserted earlier in this thread has been over-painted adding a dog and moving the helmet; see attached.
The sword now looks like a Pappenheimer to me but I am uncertain. Nice tournament armour.

Jim McDougall

3rd May 2024, 07:11 PM

Well noted Keith, now that I see the shells it does look like a Pappenheimer.
Norman speaks to the often practiced 'overpainting', not to mention later 'restorations'. It really does set the mind to wondering just how much license did come into play.

Peter Hudson

28th May 2024, 06:07 PM

The association of this individual with the fortunes and subsequent downfall of Catholics and thus the eventual outcome of The Jacobites are mysterious indeed.

Popular feeling ran very high against the Earl, and the King, though he had assured Strafford that his life should be spared, abandoned him when it came to the point, and on the 10th signed the commission for giving the royal assent to the Bill. The Earl was beheaded on Tower Hill, 12th May 1641, and met his death with dignity and composure. He was 48 years of age. In private life the Earl of Strafford was a devoted husband and father, a true friend and a man of high cultivation and feeling. Many of his faults of temper arose from his shattered health, the result of agonizing accessions of inherited gout. His personal habits were naturally simple, but to sustain the honour of the King "before the eyes of a wild and rude people," he maintained almost regal magnificence, with a retinue of fifty servants and a body-guard of one hundred horse splendidly mounted and accoutred. The ruins of a princely mansion, begun by him, but never completed, may still be seen near Naas. In fact further research reveals 1633-1640
Thomas Wentworth (Black Tom) Earl of Strafford and Lord Deputy of Ireland builds his great house at Jigginstown, it would be an Irish Residence for Charles I, but alas Wentworth is recalled to London and loses his head before the roof goes on his great house. He was long known in the traditions of the Irish peasantry as "Black Tom."
Peter Hudson.

Jim McDougall

28th May 2024, 10:34 PM

Interesting stuff on the complexities of Great Britain in this period, and as noted Thomas Wentworth was sent to rule in Ireland in 1633 by Charles I. While he is noted as being of admirable being in this context, his sobriquet "Black Tom" was from the Irish subjects for not only his despotic rule, but his dark demeanor and insistent wearing of somber Puritan clothing.

IMO, the style of the sword in the 'pappenheimer' manner likely comes from the profound Dutch influences brought to England in these times. The German blade makers ostensibly from Solingen were actually recruited in Holland for the Hounslow enterprise. This indirectly of course set the stage for the later Shotley Bridge venture.

Again, interesting connections, the son of 'Black Tom' (2nd Earl of Strafford) had a Shotley sword passed to his nephew Thomas Watson (1693-1750)
which of course has to do with the 'casket' (s) mentioned by Keith earlier.

Every sword has its own legacy, history and dynamics which present most fascinating perspective on historic events and persons. They are literally icons of history and the most exciting way to study it!

Triarii

30th May 2024, 11:32 AM

Short version as the website ate my longer reply.
There are multiple versions of the Strafford portrait, with the Pappenheimer one owned by the NT (after Van Dyke, if I recall correctly) and the other by the NPG (school 0f Van Dyke). The NPG have another with him facing to the right, but it shows the same sword hilt in both. It also appears in Van Dykes full length portrait of Charles I in armour. I suspect that it is therefore a prop supplied by the artist, along with the cuirassier armour. That armour was rarely used in England, with only one regiment and a few troops of horse using it in the ECW, but it usefully displays the martial connections of the sitter, being used even as late as the early C18th.

To be fair to AVB Norman, there are good depictions of eg Irish Hilts in portraits of Colonels Booth, Massey and Hutchinson and a Type 91 hilt in Rembrandts 'Self portrait with Saskia', which can also be seen on contemporary tomb monuments in Bristol and Gloucester cathedrals.

urbanspaceman

31st May 2024, 06:11 PM

Just as a hint of a suggestion: I always type/compose my longer responses in MS Word, then copy and paste into the forum, as too many times the website eats my efforts.
On to the issue at hand:
Artist's 'Props', now there is an obvious reason that never crossed my mind... thank-you.
Of course, getting important folk to sit still for lengthy periods on an often basis was never easy was it/is it?
I have abandoned all efforts to unravel the family lineage involved in the Wentworth/Woodhouse/Watson affair: simply way too many variations on the names and titles to achieve coherence. I do think I got it right except the caskets were made post 1750 by the latest WWW incumbent.
All good fun until your brain melts.
Thank-you Folks.

Brian Moffatt

16th November 2024, 08:36 PM

Way off beam I know Keith,
But just for the information of anyone researching "Shotley"... for some weird reason the posting on my blog on the subject no longer appears to be accessible to search engines.... so best way in is just to go straight to the front page and scroll down.
We now have what I believe to be a Medieval Derwent valley anvil... it came from very close to Hexham Abbey... fascinating thing with a cross and other detail on the side.... must have been put in when the metal was still malleable.
I'll get it up online in due course....
We are still working on the descriptions for the Museum... a truly massive task,
So currently access is rather limited since we have personally to talk the way through all of the exhibits.... which takes well over an hour.
Hopefully by next year we will have it all on tablets..
All the Best,
Brian Moffatt

urbanspaceman

18th November 2024, 10:49 PM

Hi Brian. You forgot to include your museum website address.

Brian Moffatt

20th November 2024, 09:26 AM

Easiest way in Keith,
...is an image web search

Reivers! The Borderlands Museum

That will produce lots of decent pictures, on quite number of Arms and Armour subjects plus much more..

I am currently working on the most important post I have ever attempted...hopefully I will get the bones of it up online in the next few days...

This one will change everything, but making all of the parts connected with it
make sense... is a job for a team really, and being in ones 80's does not help, as some of the sites (locations) connected are near impossible to access..

"Official" assistance is out of the question, since my activities interfere with "Government" / Landowner policy.
And so... the Tourism and Development folk are very reluctant to talk to us..
"More than me jobs worth" Etc.
This goes right back to the end of the 16th century!
All the Best,
Brian