A blunderbuss with an early lock

[fernando]

So according to what is registered, the dog lock system preceded the real flint lock and saw action to around 1700. Hence this example is a relic. With a 48 cms. barrel shortened from that of a musket and having its muzzle 'abacarmatado' ('blunderbussized'), it has signs of being Portuguese, as per its triggerguard in a scallop shape, for one.
The suggestive suspension ring visibly dates from the time this gun was transformed into a 'handy' blunderbuss.
Caliber circa 16 m/m. Total length 83 cms. Weight 2728 grs.

Anyone here has with this kind of pieces ... or may give an opinion about this one ?

.

[Pukka Bundook]

Good morning Fernando,

This is a very interesting looking piece.
I know next to nothing of Portuguese arms, but can say that by the style of the stock, and the tang screw entering the tang from below, plus the dog -lock, that I would say this piece is from the1690's at any rate.
Earlier locks often were attached with three sidenails rather than the two we see here, but the lock is very archaic looking and I don't think newer than I suggest.
The buttstock shape also says from the 1690's rather than early 18th century.

I recall something about muskets being reduced in length in this manner, but not well enough to say anything further!
Again, an interesting arm!

Richard.

[fernando]

Thank you Richard: observations well noted.
Musket barrels being reduced in length used to be a rather common exercise. In Portugal, for one, during troubled periods (Peninsular and thereabouts) people mainly in rural places had local smiths to assemble parts of muskets left back by either side armies and build hand made blunderbusses. For statistically reasons, most setups were made with British parts, namely locks and shortened barrels. The basic reason for the barrel shortening was, more than the need to used them in confined places, like from inside carriages, the practice to go out at night and hide them under one's coat, for eventual defence against assailants. Other cases like this one posted, i guess, would be to shorten the barrel from an integral musket, for the same purpose.

[Pukka Bundook]

I note Fernando, that it has a sling loop, so a sling could pass around the body and over the opposite shoulder, in the same manner that a Royal Mail B-buss would be carried. Very useful on a coach or mounted on horseback.

If only it could talk!

Richard.

[Fernando K]

Hello

Only to add that the screw that closes the jaws ends in a ring, common in Mediterranean locks

Affectionately. Fernando K

[Shakethetrees]

Hello

Only to add that the screw that closes the jaws ends in a ring, common in Mediterranean locks

Affectionately. Fernando K


I suspect the screw is a replacement. A very minor consideration on a gun of this age!

A very nice weapon, and one that could easily find a home in my pile.

[M ELEY]

Awesome early blunderbuss, Fernando! It kind of reminded me of a wall gun (as in those mammoth swivel types protecting forts). I know it's not, based on the length, but I'm with Richard that it could easily have been a coach gun.

About the stock- I'm assuming its 'wormy ash', based on the worm holes? Or do other woods get those pesky moth larvae as well. If it is ash, is this a common wood for a gun stock? Not my area, so just thinking aloud and hoping for education on this! Wormy ash was the #1 choice for pike hafts-

[Pukka Bundook]

RE ash,

No clue on Portugal, but ash was used at this time in England and Northern Europe, even for matchlock tillers/stocks. It wasn't the only wood used, as walnut, fruitwood and elm were used and walnut being the most popular. Maple /sycamore used as well.

The ring type vise pin in the cock is more Spanish ,Portuguese/Mediterranean, but very practical and sometimes seen even in Scotland. Could well be a replacement sometime in its very long life.

Has the barrel any proofs?

[iskender]

good evening ,aside the yaw-screw i possess a very similar rifle in its original configuration ,the allmost identical barrel has 2 british proofmarks on the left side of the barrel. the gun is 84 cm long . there is a good chance this very early doglock-carbine is from england. (my guess) iskender Switzerland

[iskender]

gentlemen ; Sorry for calling my carbine a rifle as it has no rifling and that is a inacurat therm for it. .It is Just the fakt that in switzerland most of the men call every "rifle" that looks like a broomstick a " Flinte" even when it is a full auto assault rifle ! gretings iskender

[Pukka Bundook]

Iskender,

I understand, and believe the same word "flinte" is used in Germany is it not?

Best wishes,
Richard.

[corrado26]

I understand, and believe the same word "flinte" is used in Germany is it not?

Yes, the word "Flinte" is a German word and as a great part of the Swiss are talking in German language they use the same expression
corrado26

[fernando]

Thank you guys for your kind and wise considerations ...


I note Fernando, that it has a sling loop, so a sling could pass around the body and over the opposite shoulder, in the same manner that a Royal Mail B-buss would be carried. Very useful on a coach or mounted on horseback.
If only it could talk!...
I don’t think the hanging loop was a for a formal shoulder ‘bandolier’; maybe for a belt hanging hook, so that you had your hands free. It could even be to hang the gun on the wall, when at rest. As you say, if it could speak …

Hello
Only to add that the screw that closes the jaws ends in a ring, common in Mediterranean locks
Affectionately. Fernando K
Gracias por la nota, Fernando

... A very nice weapon, and one that could easily find a home in my pile.
Considering you already have a pile, you don’t need this one more ;).

... About the stock- I'm assuming its 'wormy ash', based on the worm holes? Or do other woods get those pesky moth larvae as well. ...
Well captain, the collector fellow who sold me this piece is a timber man. He reminds that walnut is a rather wormy wood; of which potentially this stock was made of.


...Has the barrel any proofs?
So far i don’t discern any proof marks, neither on the barrel nor in the lock, under the heavy patina.

gentlemen ; Sorry for calling my carbine a rifle as it has no rifling and that is a inacurat therm for it. .It is Just the fakt that in switzerland most of the men call every "rifle" that looks like a broomstick a " Flinte" even when it is a full auto assault rifle ! gretings iskender
Ah, the typology of shoulder guns. In my language they are generically called espingardas; an ancient type may be called mosquete, a later short one a carabina and the ones with flared muzzles (blunderbusses) are bacamartes.

Concernung the 'flinte' ... here for such attribution we call it pederneira (from the latin pretinariu- petrinu= stone) whereas the Spanish call it chispa (spark).

[Pukka Bundook]

Fernando,

Re the sling bar;
this swivel on your blunderbuss is Exactly of the type fitted to the guns carried on British mail coaches. The gun could hang down at the side, leaving the hands free, as the guard was also responsible for blowing the coach horn.
The sling worked in a manner similar to a carbine sling, over the shoulder with the gun hanging down on the opposite side.
I am not saying this gun Was an English coaching blunderbuss as I don't think it was, but I believe it was carried in this fashion beyond any real doubt.

As an experiment, run a cord through the loop and suspend it over your shoulder and see how it hangs. :-)

Best regards,

Richard.

[iskender]

[QUOTE=Pukka Bundook]Iskender,

I understand, and believe the same word "flinte" is used in Germany is it not?

richard, in germany and the swiss-german kantons , a long handgun with a smoothbore barrel is called a "Flinte" the same with a rifled barrel is called a "Büchse". so a dubbelbarreld shotgun is a "Doppelflinte", a long gun with 2 rifled barrels is a "Doppelbüchse" ,a combination can be things like "Bockbüchsflinte" ,"Doppelbockbüchse" and many variants more , specially made in Ferlach in form of high quality "Hunting-rifles". A blunderbuss we call a "Tromblon" with is french, the germans call that thing a "Donnerbüchse" with is technically incorrekt as the Tromblon is mostly a smoothbore "flinte" and not a "büchse", but who cares about things like that ! (nobody). greetings Iskender

[fernando]

... this swivel on your blunderbuss is Exactly of the type fitted to the guns carried on British mail coaches...
The sling worked in a manner similar to a carbine sling, over the shoulder with the gun hanging down on the opposite side ...As an experiment, run a cord through the loop and suspend it over your shoulder and see how it hangs. :
I know it works fine the way you mention, Richard; i was only realizing that it can also hang from different spots. In my eyes i don't see this particular gun in so formal service, but more like a private weapon. But it is only my imagination ... at least so far.

[Pukka Bundook]

Iskender,

Thank you for the explanation!! I had some of it from German hunting book, and it Still confuses me!

Fernando,

Yes, as you suggest, it could be hung from anything with this butterfly swivel, and I also believe you are right regarding it being a private weapon.

Still, such a swivel was very useful, see below;

[fernando]

Quite nice, thanks. Mine hangs vertically ...

.

[Philip]

Fernando,
The dog-lock on your gun is considerable interest. This type is most associated with England, mid-to-latter 17th cent. There is an example whose cock jaw screw has a ring terminus, as on a miquelet, on a musket ca. 1650 in the Tower of London collection (now Royal Armouries Mus.), inv. no. XII-48. The lock on that gun, however, is of more archaic form than yours since it has a 3-bolt attachment to the stock, not the 2 as on yours. The shape of its plate is also patterned after that of the earlier snaphaunce, whereas your blunderbuss' lockplate is the more usual "French" type that became standard as the 17th cent. drew to a close.

The use of the dog-lock also spread to northern Germany. The Livrustkammaren in Stockholm has two pieces relevant to your lock, albeit in very decorative, luxus-sporting guise -- a detached lock signed Paul Rolof, Stettin (now a part of Poland), ca. 1680, and a complete rifle by Berndt Orther, also of Stettin but a decade later. The shape of the cock and lockplate on both are very similar to the mechanism on your gun, but the jaw screw terminates in a slotted bulb, not ring. These German locks also feature a 2-bolt attachment to the stock.

So these examples help corroborate the attribution of last quarter of 17th cent. to the lock on your gun. It could be an outlier of slightly later date from a very conservative area, but considering that the true flintlock with internal half-cock safety had started to become more and more popular after the mid-17th cent., I rather doubt that dog-lock manufacture persisted much after ca. 1700.

The examples referenced above can be seen in H. L. Blackmore, GUNS AND RIFLES OF THE WORLD (1965). Also, it is worth noting from Torsten Lenk's writing (THE FLINTLOCK, Swedish edition 1939, English 2007) that the dog lock was NOT the predecessor to the "true" flintlock -- it existed contemporaneously to it, and appeared AFTER the latter came into existence.

[kronckew]

...a dubbelbarreld shotgun is a "Doppelflinte", a long gun with 2 rifled barrels is a "Doppelbüchse" ,a combination can be things like "Bockbüchsflinte" ,"Doppelbockbüchse"..

timeout: bier time, or a nice taylors. ruby red port.

i had a loosiana cajun buddy in texas on a construction project we were supervising, his name was tom hebert (pronounced A-Bear) he told me a story about his grandpere beudreaux (boo-drow) hebert. on day he was returning from a duck hunt and tom saw beudreaux had 40 mallards in his pirogue (dugout canoe).

tom said 'hi granpaw, that's a lotta ducks, how many shells did it take? you musta bin shootin all day!

ol' beudreaux said, jes two. , is all i needed.my two-hole shootsgun jus hols two shell. twenny beebee each shell. bin gone jes a haff hour.

tom said 'grandad, i don't believe you, yer tellin me a tall tale.

ol' beudreaux sez, you yung whippersnapper, you get up at 5 a.m. termorra and comes a shootin wif me & i'll show you. betcha a whole dollar i get a dock wif evry beebee.

now that was a whole days wage back then.

next day they goes ahuntin' in the pirogue agin. flock of mllard docks flies by overhead. beaudreax lets fly with the left barrel. 20 duckies fall into the pirogue. he lets fly with the right barrel. 19 ducks fall into the boat. tom says excitedly 'i win! you only got 19!' just then a mallard comes flyin by, a duckin' and a divin' and loop de loopin', followed by that last tenacious beebee, beudreax sez 'son, jus wait a minute...'. :)

i know this is a true story, tom showed me that two hole shootsgun. or mebbe it was a Doppelflinte. in any case, it had two external hammers. the story is easier to believe if you tell it in a french accent tho. tom even showed me the dollar was missin from his wallet.

p.s. - beudreaux was also a frugal ol' sod, he dug them beebee outta them docks and reused them. they got smarter every time he did. thats why tom had the shootsgun, beu didn't need it enny more. whenever he wants a dock dinner he just throws a few o' them beebees out the winder an they fetch him a passle of docks.

we now return you to your regularly scheduled dissertation.

[corrado26]

The use of the dog-lock also spread to northern Germany.

Not only was used the dog lock in northern Germany but also in southern Germany and in Austria. The pistol with the dog lock is a cuirassier pistol M 1729 of Saxony and the carbine is an Austrian cavalry carbine M 1789.
corrado26

[fernando]

Thank you so much for your input, Philip.
Meanwhile i have browsing on this thing ...
Norman pretends that this system is probably of Spanish or Moorish origin, then used by Brits during the second half XVII century, as you well mention.
Lavin mentions and shows a sketch of a Sinhalese (agujeta) lock as being introduced there by the Portuguese (prior to 1658), familiar with this system, with a calço atras (back wedge).
If you notice in Espingarda Perfeita by R. Daehnhardt, one example in the last row (1620-1680) is such Sinhales type again.
... or am i mixing the whole thing ... :o .

[Philip]

Fernando,
Or I should say, not all dogs are created equal.
1. Norman could not be correct on this. The north European dog-lock, of which you have an example, is not developmentally connected to any of the dog-locks of the Mediterranean or Oriental worlds (the agujeta, the Sinhalese snap lock, etc) for the simple reason that the former has an internal mainspring, and all of the latter have external springs.

2. Furthermore, the sear (the assembly that releases the cock upon pull of trigger) is entirely internal on the northern dog-lock. It is a one-piece L shaped arm under spring tension, with studs that engage a tumbler or nut on the cock's axis bolt. The sear system on the agujeta (either the Hispanic or Algerian types) is a 2-piece assemblage with a stud or nose that engages the cock directly through an aperture in the lockplate; on this type of lock there is no tumbler. See Blackmore, pp 112-15 for text and diagrams.

3. I'm not sure whether the Sinhalese snaplock is a direct descendant of the agujeta. A comparison of the sear systems is in order, and I can't find this aspect illustrated in any of my reference books. Lavin's article "Spanish Agujeta-lock Firearms" in ART, ARMS AND ARMOUR (ed. Robert Held, 1979) emphasizes that the Iberian version typically has a wheellock-derived lockplate profile -- trapezoidal with an obtuse point at the bottom, AND is equipped with two bridles or support bridges for the cock and frizzen pivot screws. The Sinhalese lock has a different plate and lacks a frizzen bridle. Daehnhardt, in ESPINGARDA FEITICEIRA, contends that the Sinhalese lock originates with the Italian miquelet "alla romana" which may well be the case. Again, a comparison of the sear design will help resolve this.

Note that the trapzoidal lockplate is absent on the Algerian version of the agujeta although functionally it remains the same, and even inherits the big alligator jaws and the wing-top screw on the cock of the later Spanish versions. From this we can expect some stylistic changes when the Sinhalese developed their snaplock, whether it be from prototypes originating in Spain, Italy, or even Portugal.

Sorry if this sounds so convoluted and geeky, if you need any clarification please let me know.

[fernando]

O.K. Philip, i get it; not the scholar technicalities but that, my sheep has nothing to do with the goats, meaning the dog lock is a system per se.
So i retire to my corner and thank you for your input :cool: .



.

[Fernando K]

Hello

Corrado, it would be interesting to know if besides the safety hook (dog-lock), the nut has also tooth half-cock. You could upload photographs inside the lock? Thank you

affectionately. Fernando K

[corrado26]

You could upload photographs inside the lock?

As all of the shown firearms are sold meanwhile I only can post fotos existing in my archive. But what I can say is that all these dog locks have a half-cock tooth at the tumbler.
corrado26

[Fernando K]

Hello

Thank you, Corrado. The photographs do not let you see the tooth in half-cock nut, but I trust in your word. Then the dog-lock would be an additional safety means.

Affectionately. Fernando K

[Fernando K]

Hello
Now I think of a question. The safety hook (lock.dog) not being commanded by a spring and automatically removed (as in agugetalock or lock Ceylan) can not be engaged and prevent the shot to reach full-cock?
Affectionately. Fernando K

[fernando]

Yes Fernando, i have read that this would be a handicap of this system (some article in castillian, don't remember where).
The author said the catch could be a problem in either being too tight and difficultate the full cocking or being too lose and... i don't recall the precise words.

[Philip]

Seems to me that the catch would be rather inconvenient to operate if it isn't under spring tension as with the agujeta and its variants. Am trying to visualize this, it looks like a two hand operation that should be performed with both hands on the same side of the gun. Fernando, have you learned an easy way to engage and disengage your dog catch?

[Pukka Bundook]

Philip,

Not having a dog-lock, I am not sure how easy it is to Engage the dog, but it automatically dis-engages when the lock is brought to full cock.

Best,
Richard.

[corrado26]

To engage the hook at a military arm at bringing the cock in its safety position you just have to held the gun/carbine/pistol downwards. The hook will so easily fall into its position.
To disengage the hook it is necessary to hold the gun upwards when the cock is pulled back in the firing position. Supposition for this is that the screw which fixes the hook on the lockplate is not screwed too tight!
corrado26

[iskender]

gentlemen to shot a doglock firearm just hold it like you would hold a gun , your first or second finger on the trigger ,with your thumb you pull back the catch, pull the trigger thats all. greetings iskender

[Pukka Bundook]

Iskender,

I don't want to belabour the issue, but a normal dog -catch can't just be pulled back at half cock, and when the lock is full cocked, the action of cocking automatically slides the dog catch back over, out of the way.

I think this is a very neat feature and something of a minor mechanical delight!

Best wishes, Richard.

[fernando]

Gentlemen,

The issue here is not when the dog works conveniently but when things don't run smoothly. As first noted by Fernando K and later by Philip, the dog catch, not working under spring tension, depends on 'harmony' factors, like being too tight or too loose and all that. As that Spanish author recalled, and brought to my own wording, it might not circumstancialy be in the mood to fully cooperate with the firing action. I relize that, holding the gun upwards helps 'convincing' the dog to easier disengage, for reasons connected to gravity.

Well Philip, i know the easy way to engage and disengage the dog catch but, i can't do it properly by my own, left handed i am ... you know :cool: :eek:

[iskender]

Iskender,

I don't want to belabour the issue, but a normal dog -catch can't just be pulled back at half cock, and when the lock is full cocked, the action of cocking automatically slides the dog catch back over, out of the way.

I think this is a very neat feature and something of a minor mechanical delight!

Best wishes, Richard.
dear richard with the gun i have in my hands now , i can pull the safety back with my thumb in the full cocked position and with a fully hookt in safetycatch. i can not take the gun apart and look inside at the lock as it is in a good untouched working conditon and i dont want to destroy its antique appearence.also my english is horrible and it is difficult to discuss mecanical ways how somethings may work or not ! it is never my attention to "bullshit " other collectors in any way with wrong information when possible. thanks to you and a good afternoon to all iskender

[Pukka Bundook]

Iskender,

I apologise for my last post, what I meant is that when working as it was designed,....new even, it Should dis-engage itself when full cocked.

Again, my apologies. I know you would never give false information!

Best wishes,
Richard.

[fernando]

:cool:

[Philip]

Fernando,
I like the way you explained things. The way you put it, it reminds me of the issues connected with getting some real dogs to do your bidding, on occasion!

To all you gentlemen, thank you for the info which you've provided in response to my question
Philip

[fernando]

Obrigado, Philip ;) .

[iskender]

Iskender,

I apologise for my last post, what I meant is that when working as it was designed,....new even, it Should dis-engage itself when full cocked.

Again, my apologies. I know you would never give false information!

Best wishes,
Richard.
good evening, no apoloigizes needed in no way and matter. I`m just trying to find out what i have in my hands myself in front of me. I have never in my life even thought about the the funktion of a doglock ,it lookt to my as any doglock in the world in that period, i regarded it just as a early flintlockrifle very common in europa and had it in a box in the ware house. the gun i have has a 1:1 Gunlock as the example of fernando with the barrel stamped with two oval british marks.As fernando says "the harmony faktors " are a very important detail, as these things where made all fom hand after a certain given pattern, so every lock in itself is unique and depended on the skill of the gunmaker. greeting iskender

[fernando]

Tamam, Iskender :cool: .

[fernando]

So, i was crossing some information towards checking a (possibly) faded mark on my bronze barreled blunderbuss, and what do i find ? Confirmation that guns with a dog lock system were indeed (also) made in Portugal. The place is Barcarena, where Royal smithy facilities were first implemented in 1487 for the purpose of arms making, having circa 1618-1619 taken place the first factory of black gun powder.
We can see in THIS CATALOGUE (http://file:///C:/Users/Utilizador/Downloads/2000%20A%20F%C3%A1brica%20da%20P%C3%B3lvora%20de%2 0Barcarena,%20Cat%C3%A1logo%20do%20Museu.pdf), besides other illustrations, that of a naval bronze barreled blunderbuss from the middle of the XVII century, "which could shoot nine bullets connected by a chain, with purpose to tear the rig of enemy ships".


.

[M ELEY]

Now, that's what I'm talking about!! Sorry, couldn't resist- :D As I mentioned, brass and bronze blunderbuss, particularly those on a swivel (rail gun) very popular with the naval men. Quite surprised to see one loaded with anti-rigging chain-shot!

[fernando]

Now, that's what I'm talking about!! Sorry, couldn't resist- :D As I mentioned, brass and bronze blunderbuss, particularly those on a swivel (rail gun) very popular with the naval men. Quite surprised to see one loaded with anti-rigging chain-shot!
Still you haven't seen it all, Captain ;).

[Fernando K]

Hello

In what I understand, the trabucos uploaded by fernando (post # 1 and # 43,) the safety hook (dog.lock) hooked in half mounts to the foot of cat (cock, hammer) is automatically unhooked when placing the foot of cat in full-cock, the two flat surfaces run one another, moving the end of the safety hook away from the notch in the foot of the cat, that is, the movement of the cat foot backwards (full-cock) to disengage the security mechanism.

Affectionately

[fernando]

Eso es, caro K :cool:

[rickystl]

Hi Fernando

I don't know how I missed this Thread some three years ago ? Glad you resurrected it with an update so I could read from the beginning.

That is a wonderful, early dog lock blunderbuss. Overall, the gun looks like it was assembled from various new/surplus parts for personal protection. To me, all the features of this gun point to pre-1700. Of course, the single sling swivel could have been added later during the period for belt or baldric type carry.
The lock, with the exception of the top screw, looks very much like the English doglocks from about the 3rd Quarter of the 17th Century. The long lock plate and frizzen spring with the pointed tail on the lock plate rear. The hammer and dog safety catch also are very English looking in style. So it appears that the Spanish/Portuguese made lock attempted to copy the popular English features at the time.
The butt stock looks more of a Spanish/Portuguese variant. Not at all English. The iron hardware, especially the butt plate and trigger guard, also look very much pre-1700 with it's plain hammer forged style.
The barrel looks similar to other large bore muskets from the period.
While the iron ramrod and barrel bands could be a bit later addition, I still believe this gun falls into the say, 1660-1675 Period. Just my speculation.

It's certainly great addition to a collection. Guns from the Third Quarter of the 17th Century and earlier are generally difficult to come by, especially in one piece. LOL Congratulations.

Rick

By the way, the doglock, with it's banana shaped lock plate on the navel swivel gun on Post #43 is similar to the English doglocks from the 4th Quarter of the 1600's to about 1720.

[Philip]

It's certainly great addition to a collection. Guns from the Third Quarter of the 17th Century and earlier are generally difficult to come by, especially in one piece. LOL Congratulations.

Rick

By the way, the doglock, with it's banana shaped lock plate on the navel swivel gun on Post #43 is similar to the English doglocks from the 4th Quarter of the 1600's to about 1720.

Rick, you posted some good info that puts Fernando's gun in a meaningful historical context. To which I'd like to add that the banana-shaped lockplate, generally with a pronounced teat on its tail (the stem? :) ) is a common feature of the fully developed "French" flintlock in general during the period you mention, as applied to all types of firearms using it. In conservative regions like parts of the German-speaking lands, it is recognizable on guns dating from a bit later as well.

[fernando]

... I suspect the screw is a replacement...
Yes, indeed. I have just checked that with the previous owner, who replaced it himself.

[fernando]

... That is a wonderful, early dog lock blunderbuss........ It's certainly great addition to a collection. Guns from the Third Quarter of the 17th Century and earlier are generally difficult to come by, especially in one piece. LOL Congratulations...
Thanks for the kind words, Rick... :cool: