keris for comment

[Sang Keris]

Hi guys ,

care to share your knowledge abt this keris and ivory ?

this is the latest item in my collection , i found it 3 months ago in real sad condition , no handle and the scabbard was totally broken.

so i took one of my ivory collection and attach it to this keris ,

the scabbard is old ladrang sumenep style. , and the pendok is new made , i order it because it's really hard to find the original maduran scabbard.

any comments ????

thanks

W....................

[Battara]

The hilt looks like from Madura. Although not traditional, the dress silver work looks wonderful.

[Sang Keris]

yes battara , it's ivory , donoriko style , maduran.

[Andrew]

I so love these carved ivory keris hilts. Beautiful.

Is that chevron pattern pamor traditional? Is is uncommon?

Welcome to the forum. :)

[Sang Keris]

thanks andrew , i hope i can learn more here....

:)


well it's common ivory style ( donoriko ) but very it's very hard to find the complete one , this one is in 100% complete condition.

[Sang Keris]

any idea about this pamor ? :confused:

[Sepang]

I'll try to give my opinion about this keris.
It a beautiful keris. Maybe now, very difficult to get keris like this.
This keris like an Old Madura - Majapahit. I mean, made at and by Maduranesse Mpu in Majapahit era.
The Pamor, I called Kupu Tarung or Tambal, but maybe can called Blarak with a "Pamor Luluhan".
Very nice keris and wrangka.

If you don't mind, would you please give me know about price of this piece ? ...and if you don't like this, may I buy this keris ?

Regards,

[Andrew]

If you don't mind, would you please give me know about price of this piece ? ...and if you don't like this, may I buy this keris ?

Regards,


Please conduct business in the Swap Forum or via private Email.

[Sang Keris]

hi sepang , thanks for the compliment , but this keris is one of my permanent collection,....not gonna sell it....

btw , i'm agree that this keris is maduran keris , and made during or before majapahit era.

and i'm still not sure about the pamor...

anyone got better idea about this pamor ???

[nechesh]

Hi Weta. This is indeed a beautiful keris. The ivory ukiran is also quite nice. I also really like that lovely jeweled mendak. I must admit i don't particularly care for the pendok, it seems too over done for the overall look of this ensemble. Maybe over time as it loses some of it's brightness it might settle in a bit. :) Still, it is beautifully executed.
Exotic pamor are not my strong suit, but i'd say this pamor resembles ron duru more than blarak, except it is moving in the wrong direction. Thanks for showing. :)

[Alam Shah]

Hi Weta,
Exquisite piece. Love the ukiran. The pamor should be 'ron duru songsang'.:p
Just kidding. I was trying to look it up in Ensiklopedi Keris, but couldn't find a match. As nechesh said, exotic pamor.

Nice quality pictures. Thanks for sharing.

[Sepang]

I'm sorry Andrew, I reflex to know the price if I look some good piece. Really sorry....., :) and I'm so afraid with your sword although it just icon :D Just kidding :) .

Weta, I agree with nechesh that your pendoks is not too appropriate. Maybe you can replace it with an old Madura pendoks from silver or brass.

I have some old wrangka like yours with an old pendoks from bruss, and old wrangka with silver pendoks Cirebonan style.

[Sang Keris]

he..he.. exotic pamor .. i really like the that name , necesh :D ....

yes it could be ron genduru sungsang..

thanks for the compliment .. prime .........

[Sang Keris]

yes sepang , i also like older pendok ,

but it's really hard to find the original one ,

[Andrew]

I'm sorry Andrew, I reflex to know the price if I look some good piece. Really sorry....., :) and I'm so afraid with your sword although it just icon :D Just kidding :) ..

Don't fear my avatar, Sepang. After all, this is an ethnographic arms and armor forum. Besides, my keyboard is much more fearsome to those who don't read and follow the forum rules. ;)

[Sepang]

Very nice horrifying Avatar, Andrew ;)

Weta, yes, that's so hard to find the original pendoks. I looking for it from Kalianget village, at Sumenep. It is an original old wrangka, unless the hilt.
I need to substitute with a Donoriko hilt from ivory like yours. Did U have another piece like that :confused:

[Sang Keris]

huh sepang , r u talking about the ivory or blade???

[Sepang]

Nice...... ;)
Weta, I just want to talk the Blade...., but..... ivory hilt, can make the blade is so wondering and powerfull energy.. :D

It's so completely piece if the Maduran Kerisses put into Wrangka Ladrang Madura and Ivory hilt with Donoriko Model....

Like you.. if want to go to the ceremonial party... with tuxedo.... look so handsome and complet, aren't U ? :D :D :D

[Sang Keris]

huhhhuhuhuhuhu..

nice scabbard , but i think its jogja style..

will not fit with my keris.. mine is maduran keris...

[Sepang]

Wrangka Penanggalan/Tanggalan for the first made from Kasultanan Demak, about 1480 - 1590 AC. Morover, this wrangka to be extend by Mataram Surakarta and Jogja, and then, became many models of wrangka, like Gayaman and Ladrang (Ensiklopedia Keris p:520).

My wrangka is an old made. It Is so hard to get this original wrangka like this, 'cause, it was a discontinued models.

Yes, that this wrangka is not appropriate with your keris ;)
I just want to give an image that if you need to take care your keris with clear, you should know about wrangka style too........, but I think you was :D :D :D

[Sang Keris]

yea...yea.. :(

[DhenTal]

I don't think that the photos was posted by sang kris is a good piece.
How can anybody give opinion that this kriss is so beautiful ? I just look a kriss with a glamour scabbard. Kriss it self, not older than 5 yrs, but it was give some chemical so that it look so old.

And, sepang scabbard, although he told that all of scabbard are old, but I don't think so. How can the old wood can still whole until now ? Is that impossible.

[Sepang]

DhenTal...., would U please give me some reason about your opinion ? :( :o

[Alam Shah]

DhenTal wrote:
> I don't think that the photos was posted by sang kris is a good piece.

What constitute a good or bad piece? In my opinion, it may not be old but still it is a nicely built piece.

> How can anybody give opinion that this kriss is so beautiful ? I just look a
> kriss with a glamour scabbard. Kriss it self, not older than 5 yrs, but it was
> give some chemical so that it look so old.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. It may be real/fake or new/old, it doesn't matter as much in terms of beauty. The intricity of the artwork and detailing of the ukiran deserves mention. :)

Dhental, if you mix in a keris community, you would know that your comment style is considered inappropriate in keris culture ethics. (Never criticise a piece in public, unless it is specifically asked for by the owner).

[BluErf]

But then, the truth is bitter (mostly)... and sometimes, in order to learn, one has to be knocked once or twice on the head to get things in. Hearing people say that the pieces are 'nice' or 'beautiful' does not add to long term learning.

[Montino Bourbon]

It's very interesting to hear the debate on whether a piece is 'real', 'genuine', 'has chi', and so forth.

Years ago, the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York aquired some Etruscan sculptures that were some of the most beautiful that anyone had ever seen. It was said of these sculptures, which included a famous head of a warrior which is still in some texts as a classic, that they had 'Clearly the Etruscan Magic"!

Years later, the Italian who had made them (!) came forward and admitted that he had made them; and being an artist as well as a freak, he had prayed over them and done ceremony before burying them, and imbued them with 'chi'.

I have seen keris made recently, including a piece made in the USA, which are outstanding, and which I am sure a rajah or a great leader in Indonesia would consider worthy of owning. I have also seen old keris which I would consider trash.

As I have said before, if I like it and I hold it in my hand, it's got plenty of chi; but I would refer you to an article called

What Makes a Weapon "Magickal"?
A Cross-Cultural Survey of Empowering Characteristics

Ruel A. Macaraeg

as for 'real' vs. 'fake' even the so-called 'experts' cannot agree on many things. Yes, there is expertise, but if you like a piece of art you like it, whether it's old or new; and new pieces are made which are equal in quality and chi to old ones. Take it from a Roman born in Rome; that which is new today becomes very soon old, and we don't have much of an idea of what previous civilizations have accomplished.

[Sang Keris]

:)

no problem guys...

keep talking.. .. i wanna learn more from the expert..

well , i know that this keris will look better if the pamor is in complete condition..

hmm.. i still think this one is old..

dhental , i think an expert like you could explain to me ,which part of this keris make you think its new? :confused:

saying its a "nice or ugly " keris , is up to you.... but talking about age , u should have a reason

[Sang Keris]

well , bluerf..
my question is..... " wht's the pamor name"

......any idea?

[Alam Shah]

As I have said before, if I like it and I hold it in my hand, it's got plenty of chi; but I would refer you to an article called

What Makes a Weapon "Magickal"?
A Cross-Cultural Survey of Empowering Characteristics
Ruel A. Macaraeg
As for imbuing a weapon with mystical elements, it can be done even on new pieces. There are 'chants', 'mantras', prayer rituals...etc, to enpower the a piece for a specific role. It could be achieved.
But I won't go further, as I'm not a learned person in this field.

There are a few good keris references books which i found helpful.
1.) Ensiklopedi Keris (Keris Encyclopedia)
- Auth: Bambang Harsrinuksmo, Pub: Jakarta : Gramedia Pustaka Utama, 2004.
- Format: Hardcover, 630 p. : ill. (some col.) ; 29 cm.
- ***** A must have primer reference. In Bahasa Indonesia.

2.) The World of the Javanese Keris
http://www.eriksedge.com/TheWorldoftheJavaneseKeris.html
- Auth: G. & B.Solyom, Pub: East West Centre Pub., Honolulu 1978
- ISBN 0-9620340-0-2
- ***** A must have primer.

3.) The Kris: Mystic Weapon of the Malay World,
- Auth: Edward Frey, Pub: Oxford University Press, Oxford 1989 (2nd Edition)
- ISBN 0-19-588906-1
- ***** Another very good primer with lots of good info but lack illustration.

4.) The Kris: an earthly approach to a cosmic symbol
- Auth: David van Duuren.
- Format: Hardcover, 95 pages, Published: 1998, Netherlands, 1st Edition
- ISBN: 907318732X
- ***** Another good primer with good color photos.
About This Book
Scholarly account of the kris - its distribution, history, function and
production. The significance of the design and motifs on the blade, hilt and
sheath and the regional variations are all described with the aid of illustrations from the Royal Tropical Institute Collection, Amsterdam.
- - -
There are other books, too. For a beginner like me, these books helps to build foundational knowledge regarding keris.:)

[Andrew]

Great post, Prime. Thank you for providing those titles.

[Rick]

Prime,
I see that you have left out Tammens works .
Is there a reason for this ?

I have found them to be quite helpful .

[Alam Shah]

Rick,
I've heard of Tammens's work, but have not acquired any of his books.
Difficult to find.

- De Kris: Magic Relic of Old Indonesia, Vol. I, II, & III,
- G.J.F.J. Tammens
- Privé uitgave van G.J.F.J.Tammens
- Eelderwolde I: 1991, II: 1993, III: 1994
- ISBN 90-9004342-X, 90-9006237-8, 90-802185-1-0

If you know where I can get these books, I'll appreciate it.;)

[Rick]

Have you tried this Seller .
I got all 3 of my volumes from them .
http://www.ethnographicartbooks.com/

Also another helpful book is :

KRISSES
A Critical Bibliography

by David van Duuren
isbn: 90 73 187 42 7

A handy guide to available writings on the keris with comments .

[Alam Shah]

Yes, Rick...I getting this. Currently awaiting for delivery. The book I listed are the ones that I have. ;)


Krisses: a critical bibliography
- Auth: David van Duuren, Pub: 2002, Netherlands ISBN: 9073187427
- Format: Hardcover, 192 pages
- ***1/2 Van Duuren catalogs and reviews most of the known writings on the keris.

About This Book
The kris -- an object of fascination for many travellers and researchers through the
centuries -- became the object of serious study with the publication in 1817 of Sir
Stamford Raffles' historic two-volume work, The History of Java. This bibliography,
the first of its kind ever, compiles and analyses the important 19th and 20th century
publications about the krisses of Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines. Accompanied
by several colour plates, this work is the seminal research tool for collectors and
connoisseurs of this Southeast Asian weapon.

[Alam Shah]

Have you tried this Seller .
I got all 3 of my volumes from them .
http://www.ethnographicartbooks.com/

Excellent link. Will add new acquisition to my keris books, soon. Thank you, Rick. :D

[Rick]

I'm sorry they didn't have Tammens Prime .
I searched every bookseller I know and Tammens trilogy seems to have dropped totally out of sight . :(

[Alam Shah]

Other books that I have on keris.:)

Keris,- Auth: Drs Hamzuri, Pub: Penerbit Djambatan, Jakarta 1993 (1984)
- ISBN 979-428-1190
- ** Basic information on kerises, mainly javanese pieces.

Keris and other weapons of Indonesia,
- Auth: Moebirman, Pub: Yayasan Pelita Wisata, Jakarta, [1973, c1970]
- ** Basic information on kerises, mainly javanese pieces.


Kris Gli Invincibili- The Invincible Krises,
- Auth: Vanna en Mario Ghiringhelli, Pub: BE-MA, Milano 1991
- ISBN 88-7143-111-1
- **** A beautifully illustrated little book with some of the best photographs
- of keris i have seen. Unfortunately, it's a tiny-sized volume (about 4 1/2 X 5 1/2). A good visual tour on keris with not much text.


Listed below is a book not directly related to keris, but have references to its use in Malay Magic, mysticism.


Malay Magic: an introduction to the folklore and popular religion of the Malay peninsula,
- Walter W. Skeat

Note: Still looking for this book. Anyone can help?:D

[Alam Shah]

I'm sorry they didn't have Tammens Prime .
I searched every bookseller I know and Tammens trilogy seems to have dropped totally out of sight . :(Yeah, that's what I thought. :eek: Thanks, anyway for searching.

[nechesh]

Hey Prime, look here for Skeat and just about any other book you can imagine: http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&qi=4YYmhU5yNRSg67Aac0Gb1qLcO1A_6418032175_1:64:185
:)

[Alam Shah]

nechesh,
Whew! Didn't know the cost of Malay Magic book, is at USD 300. (Could get a keris for that amount...just kidding :p ). I guess, with the knowledge goes into the research on the subject and the scarcity of this resource, makes it a worthwhile buy.

Thanks nechesh. Excellent link. (Why I didn't find it in my search earlier...:confused: ).

[nechesh]

Prime, i think you misread something. I just ordered this book for $30 USD. Sure, you can buy a first edition for $300 or more, but it was reprinted in 1967 and you can get those pretty cheap. Check the site again. They list from cheapest to most expensive examples. :)

[Sang Keris]

i think Koesni's book has more acceptable explaination for mysthical power of keris...,. too bad , no english version.

[Alam Shah]

Opppsss!!! My mistake. Looking at the link in the wee hours of the morning...
Thanks for highlighting...(else, ordered a $300 item when it's available at $30).

[Alam Shah]

i think Koesni's book has more acceptable explaination for mystical power of keris...,. too bad , no english version.Any idea where I can get it? Bahasa Indonesia is not a problem for me. :D

[Sang Keris]

i have a copy..mail me your address .. i'll send it to u

[Mick]

Is Koesni's book "Pakem Pengetahuan Tentang Keris" or another one?

[Sang Keris]

yes.. tht one,,