Unknown short sword. Where's it from? Philippines? Naga?

[RSWORD]

It is not often that I run across something I haven't seen before so when I do I tend to gravitate towards those items. This is a very interesting piece. It is about 21" long with a very thick and heavy blade. This is probably the reason for the long steel ferrule. The grip is of unusual form but is 8 sided. I would place it in the 19th century so it has very good age. The 8 sided grip reminds me of the Philippines but the shape of the handle is unique for that region. The blade shape is also a bit unique. Very thick spine, heavy and currently out of polish so unsure of the blade construction. The long steel ferrule reminds me a bit of Kalinga axe but the weld is nearly seamless where as you tend to have an overlapping weld on a Kalinga axe. The other region I gravitated towards was the Naga/Assam regions. Again, not an exact match to anything from that region but certain similarities can be found. I'm hoping the collective knowledge of the forum has seen this form somewhere in an obscure reference or can lend additional hypothesis to the mix to help on the road to discovery.

[Sajen]

Hello Rick,

my feeling tells me somewhere from the mainland of SEA but frankly said I've never seen something similar.

Regards,
Detlef

[Henk]

First guess is a dha-like something, Could also be a malay or indonesian chopper.

Blade has something from a sikin panjang. Could be a rehilted thing from that area as well.

Same story as Detlef told you, and i haven't seen anything like this either.

[Robert]

Hello Rick, It sure is nice to know that I am not alone when it comes to not being able to pass up the odd item when it shows up.:D I wish I could help on this, but like everyone else I have never seen anything like this before. :(

Best,
Robert

[Ian]

Hi Rick:

That's definitely unusual. It appears to have been much used and resharpened many times. There is quite a deficit in the edge at the center of the blade, suggesting it has been used repeatedly as a chopper. So maybe more of a tool than a weapon.

Nothing about it really speaks to a specific origin.

Ian.

[colin henshaw]

The structure of the piece reminds me a bit of this knife/chopper I had and posted on the forum a couple of years ago - the metal sleeve and faceted finial are both commonalities. My knife was thought to be from Java in the end.

[RSWORD]

Thanks for the feedback guys. As I suspected we have a wide range of opinions which adds to the mystique and interest in this piece. If only these things could talk. I will review all the thoughts and add to them to mine and continue to work on a possible origin. Many thanks for the feedback.

[Ian]

Rick:

On further reflection I think the clue to what this was used for lies in the thickness of the blade. You say "very thick," but just how thick? If the spine measures more than a centimeter across, then the overwhelming use for such a blade in SE Asia is for splitting coconuts or chopping branches and small trees for firewood. Yes, we do find occasional weapons with blades of that thickness (the parang latok from Borneo, some of the klewang from Aceh, etc.), but seldom the focused wear on the blade that this one shows.

Since the blade has seen some hard use, probably over an extended period of time, it is possible that the handle is a replacement. And the scabbard also looks fairly recent in manufacture, with those well preserved rattan strips and no obvious dings.

My best guess would be a coconut splitting knife from northern Burma/Nagaland/Assam.

Ian.

[Maurice]

Hello Rick,

It is from the Tengger Mountains.
In the museum of Leiden are several of them, all from the Tenggerese..

A good Belgium friendcollector of mine, who alerted me on your post, has also one in his private collection and did some research before and knew what it was.

Regards from Belgium and the Netherlands!

[Ian]

COLLECTIE TROPENMUSEUM Portret van een oude Tenggerese man TMnr 10005231.jpg


Portrait of an old Tenggerese man

Dated 1910

[Sajen]

Hello Rick,

It is from the Tengger Mountains.
In the museum of Leiden are several of them, all from the Tenggerese..

A good Belgium friendcollector of mine, who alerted me on your post, has also one in his private collection and did some research before and knew what it was.

Regards from Belgium and the Netherlands!

Hello Maurice,

great! This is one reason why I am happy to be a member of this forum; nearly all seldom seen items can be identified! Never have seen such a chopper before.

Regards,
Detlef

[RSWORD]

Maurice,

Many thanks to you and your collector friend. I was hopeful someone had seen something similar and given how many of us had not run across anything similar it has been most helpful and educational. I agree completely with Sajen! This is a huge reason why we gather. Bravo!

[S.Workman]

Hello Rick,

It is from the Tengger Mountains.
In the museum of Leiden are several of them, all from the Tenggerese..

A good Belgium friendcollector of mine, who alerted me on your post, has also one in his private collection and did some research before and knew what it was.

Regards from Belgium and the Netherlands!
Where did you get those cool maps? They are very cool….

[CharlesS]

I am trying to think back on obscure pieces ultimately being correctly identified on this site and I really believe this one "might take the cake".

Interesting piece, and even more fascinating to learn more about it.

Personally, I have never seen anything remotely similar.

Good post Rsword!

[Maurice]

COLLECTIE TROPENMUSEUM Portret van een oude Tenggerese man TMnr 10005231.jpg


Portrait of an old Tenggerese man

Dated 1910



This is a cool photo of a Tengerese man! Thanks for sharing....

[Maurice]

Hello Maurice,

great! This is one reason why I am happy to be a member of this forum; nearly all seldom seen items can be identified! Never have seen such a chopper before.

Regards,
Detlef


:cool:
Regards,
Maurice

[Maurice]

Where did you get those cool maps? They are very cool….

I have this very big Atlas "van Tropisch Nederland", 1938.
I made the photos with my cellphone from it.

Rg,
Maurice

[Maurice]

My friend didn't mind placing a photo of the sword in his collection.

So here it is!
Enjoy.....

Rg,
Maurice

[VVV]

Nice find Rick and cool research Maurice!

Blades from the Tenggerese, like the Badui, is not something you see everyday...

Michael

[Sajen]

Nice find Rick and cool research Maurice!

Blades from the Tenggerese, like the Badui, is not something you see everyday...

Michael

Are there documented blades known from the Badui people?

Regards,
Detlef

[Maurice]

Are there documented blades known from the Badui people?

Regards,
Detlef

Reread the gobang article I've sent you a while ago Detlef. There you'll find more info about the Badoei blades.. :rolleyes:

Rg Maurice

[colin henshaw]

Well done Maurice and friend, great identification !

Regards :)

[Sajen]

Reread the gobang article I've sent you a while ago Detlef. There you'll find more info about the Badoei blades.. :rolleyes:

Rg Maurice

Hi Maurice,

yes, forget it! :rolleyes:

Regards,
Detlef

[Maurice]

Well done Maurice and friend, great identification !

Regards :)

You're welcome.
Great that it is appreciated so much Colin!

Rg,
Maurice

[Maurice]

Hi Maurice,

yes, forget it! :rolleyes:

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

look at page 20 / 21 and you'll find some information.
Not much, but better as nothing. :)

[Sajen]

Hi Detlef,

look at page 20 / 21 and you'll find some information.
Not much, but better as nothing. :)

Hi Maurice,

you're correct, just have checked it! ;)

[Emanuel]

Hello,

Could this piece belong to the same group? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7936).

Emanuel

[Ian]

Looks very similar Emanuel. I'd say the same group.

Ian.

[Sajen]

I have recently aquired this one, it was listed as Maasai seme! :D

[Ian]

Very nice. Good find. I've been looking for one of these for a while, but have been caught up with packing house the last few weeks. Otherwise ...

Congratulations on a good piece Detlef.

Ian.

[Sajen]

Thank you Ian! I've found it by accident and some sleepless hours. ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[kai]

Congrats, Detlef! Certainly a rare find...

[Sajen]

Thank you Kai, it's the first time that I've seen one for selling!

[ausjulius]

Are there documented blades known from the Badui people?

Regards,
Detlef
they have a bedog style of golok with a distinct handle shape.. these can be purchased online if you search golok badui or golok baduy they are quite short hand handles quite large.. there handles are all wood normally lack wood.. as they dont keep large animals

[Sajen]

they have a bedog style of golok with a distinct handle shape.. these can be purchased online if you search golok badui or golok baduy they are quite short hand handles quite large.. there handles are all wood normally lack wood.. as they dont keep large animals

Thank you Julius,
when we looked to the same sites I nearly would say that this as golok Badui described and offered knives are indeed just bedogs. :shrug:

I have learned later how they look (the Badui swords), the shown one was once for sale, this few pictures I keep.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

And here a few new pictures from the Tengger "bolo".

[naturalist]

I have been asking around, then contacted a Baduy blacksmith from Kampung Batu Belah, Cijahe. He said, as far as he remembers they don't make any sword Thank you Julius,
when we looked to the same sites I nearly would say that this as golok Badui described and offered knives are indeed just bedogs. :shrug:

I have learned later how they look (the Badui swords), the shown one was once for sale, this few pictures I keep.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

I have been asking around, then contacted a Baduy blacksmith from Kampung Batu Belah, Cijahe. He said, as far as he remembers they don't make any sword

The one in the picture was sold once from Arjan Hollestelle, he posted not here for a very long time but maybe he lurks here from time to time and can tell us from where he got this information once.;)

Regards,
Detlef

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

There is a fairly early report attributing this style of blades to the Badui:
Jacobs, J.K. 1891. De Badoej's. Int. Arch. Ethn., 4: 158-164
(The local name is given as gobang; the style doesn't seem to have a wide distribution though.)

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Great research from Maurice and Ian. Thanks for bring this information to light.
So my understanding is that the Tenggerese are a Javanese sub-ethnic group that traces its history back to the Mojopahit. They apparently are one of the few groups that still adhere to Hindu/Buddhist ways in Jawa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenggerese_people

[naturalist]

Made by Baduy whose father used to be an apprentice of well-known blacksmith in their tribe. He said to me that this is the only "gobang" that they know.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=216564&stc=1&d=1651757232

Differences with the common golok are on the notch, bolster, and the shape of the gado.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=216565&stc=1&d=1651757232

Hello Detlef,

There is a fairly early report attributing this style of blades to the Badui:
Jacobs, J.K. 1891. De Badoej's. Int. Arch. Ethn., 4: 158-164
(The local name is given as gobang; the style doesn't seem to have a wide distribution though.)

Regards,
Kai

[naturalist]

Lately, when i was looking more information on wedung. I found, "wedung sanibin". Sanibin is the name of empu (mastersmith), from the foothill of Semeru Mountain. Those two mountains (Bromo and Semeru) just around 70km in distance.
The shape of wedung sanibin's blade is similar to the Tengger's, with variations on sheath and hilt, however there are sheath and hilt that are similar to the Tengger's.
It said that the Lumajang (Lamajang in the past) where the wedung sanibin comes from initially inhabited by people from Madura. Definitely different from the cultures of Tengger.

[gp]

amazing !
and so many Indonesian collectors here and still unknown ?

Time to pay a visit to the vulcanic Bromo area and Semeru national park,gents
;)!

[gp]

Tengger greetings