Pamor thread?

[Richard Furrer]

Hello All,
Would it be possible to have a thread with pamor photos?
I know this has been done with particular Keris which folk have gotten and others post similar or related pieces, but could a gallery of sorts be made where such images can be posted? Or maybe a sticky thread?

Some of you have posted images of Pamor I had never seen...really top shelf stuff.

Just a completely selfish cry from the snow covered shop of a blacksmith.
I am about to reconstruct some of these patterns and the larger sample body I have the better it is for me.:o

Ric

[sirek]

the idea was already suggested, but it did not come further than an idea :shrug:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12521

[Richard Furrer]

Not exactly what I had in mind Sirek.
I am not personally seeking a discussion of pamor per se, but a gallery of patterns.
As a blackssmith I wish to reverse engineer the techniques used in creating the patterns and as such I collect photos (and keris) which I find interesting.

Ric

[Bjorn]

It would certainly be a feast for the eyes, and a nice way to look up pamor patterns one is unfamiliar with. It might be a bit difficult to set it up in a forum environment though, owing to the huge number of patterns in existence.

[A. G. Maisey]

Richard there are a lot of variations to pamor patterns, but there is a quite limited number of basic patterns, possibly only about 5 or so.

There are a lot of clear pictures of pamor patterns in Haryoguritno, but you will find that just about everything that we can see in pamor patterns is reflected in damascus patterns, and when you compare the two you'll probably find that you've already seen the pattern, or at least a pattern that has been produced in a similar way, in either Figiel or Sasche.

What we sometimes think of as a variation is in fact failure to achieve a desired effect.

[Richard Furrer]

Alan,
I have noticed that some names are used for two patterns which are quite different in technique, but "similar" in final appearance. I place similar in quotes as, to me at least, they are not.

You may indeed be correct, but in searching just this list I have discovered much. Makes me wonder what I am missing.

Perhaps if I post images of my reconstructions it would spur some interest.

Ric

[David]

I have noticed that some names are used for two patterns which are quite different in technique, but "similar" in final appearance. I place similar in quotes as, to me at least, they are not.
Ric, i don't think that you will want to get caught in the "name game" here and it will only distract you from what it seems you goals are. As Alan has already pointed out, there are a lot of good examples of pamor pattern in many available books. You will likely not only find the same name used for "similar" patterns that seem to have an obviously different approach, but completely different names for the same "exact" patterns, dependent upon many variables including, but not exclusive to the area the blade originates from, when the blade was made and what reference materials the person applying the name has read for their source info.
I am not sure what good it would serve to amass a colection of various pamors here except to create endless debate on what these various pamors should be called. You can certainly find a fairly large selection of clear photographs of different patterns either in some of these reference books or with a google search of images under the key word "keris pamor patterns".

[Richard Furrer]

Indeed Gentleman,
Pictures abound. I have most of the books...some 20 or so on Keris and many hundreds of sword/knife books in general.
Yet,
Some of the photos posted here are new patterns..maybe not in appearance to many of you, but to a smith they indeed are not documented in any book I have.

As to names:
I generally do not care until it comes time to do a search for a specific pattern type and then a name is useful.

Ric

[A. G. Maisey]

Richard, you've noted in this most recent post that some of the pamor patterns "posted here" --- which I take as posted to this Forum --- are new patterns that do not appear in the books you have.

Yes, you're right.

We see a fair few pamor patterns posted mostly by people looking for a name, or to confirm a name. I can think of two that have surfaced in the last couple of weeks:- kembang pete (this is pronounced in a similar way to "pehteh", not as the abbreviation of "Peter") and klabang sejuta.

The kp is a variation of bendo sagodo, or brongsong, or santa, and 40 years ago all of them would probably have been dumped into the same basket and the variations from bendo sagodo would have been regarded as attempts that didn't quite make it. Or, alternatively the kp might have been regarded as banyu tetes on steroids.

The ks is interesting. I first saw this pamor in probably about 1988. It was the first time I'd seen it, the first time the dealer I bought from had seen it, and the first time Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo had seen it. It was a new creation out of Sumenep. For a number of years it was called "tirto tejo". Now it looks like the power of public opinion, or maybe marketing has decided that its klabang sejuta.

Now, this name is interesting, and it tells us that we are in fact looking at a new pamor that has been very probably given its name by the people in Jakarta, rather than people in the Javanese heartland. If this was an old Javanese pamor and they wanted to call it "thousand centipede" it would be "klabang sewu".

Sewu = one thousand in Javanese, sejuta = post 1972 spelling for one thousand in Indonesian, seyuta = pre-1972 spelling for one thousand in Indonesian. The transposition of "o" for "a" in some words is a Javanese characteristic of colloquial speech, so if "sewu sejuta" were to be spoken by a Javanese person in relaxed conversation, it would very probably be pronounced "sewuseyuto". The inclusion of an "e" after the "k" (kelabang) is the written expression of the pronunciation, which could probably be better represented by an apostrophe rather than an 'e', but it is not the usually accepted formal spelling.

But why didn't the originators of this name use Indonesian for "centipede"? "klabang " is Javanese

Well, if they had the name would be "lipan berbisa sejuta".

Sorta doesn't flow real well, does it?

And klabang has probably come over into Indonesian fairly widely, its certainly understood, anyway, and sounds better than "lipan berbisa"

All of the original keris terminology is Javanese.

Why?

Because the keris is first and foremost a Javanese cultural artifact.

Bahasa Indonesia, or Indonesian, is based upon Malay as it is spoken in a part of South Sumatera. Indonesian is the national language of the country, Indonesia, it is not the language of the Javanese people.

So when we see keris terminology rendered in Indonesian it is a dead give away that what we're looking at is a newly manufactured name, and probably a newly manufactured artifact as well.

Before somebody jumps onto the bandwagon and points out that everywhere the keris appears there are names that vary from the Javanese let us consider the spread of the keris.

This spread of the keris probably began with Majapahit trade links, but at that time in history the keris within Majapahit had a very specific social function, a function that would have precluded many forms of keris from being legitimately worn by people who were outside the Majapahit social structure. Some would very probably have been given to local rulers in parts of SE Asia that were under Majapahit influence, but there would have been no keris presence in the general populace in these places outside Majapahit.

With Islam a couple of things happened:- Javanese metal working skills went through a quantum leap (Pigeaud), and trade expanded. This was when the keris dispersion really took off, and by the late 17th century keris had actually become trade goods. The original purpose of the keris in Jawa had disappeared with the disappearance of Majapahit.

Thus, when the keris found its way into other parts of SE Asia it was adopted as a local artifact and given its own name and terminology by the local people in these other places.

In fact, keris terminology is full of euphemisms. Nowhere does a keris term tell you what the thing it refers to truly is.

So, fast forward to the keris revival of the 1970's and the second coming of the keris industry in Sumenep --- second coming, because these people have been making keris for the rest of Jawa since Majapahit times. We have a number of very talented pattern welders who are now taking traditional pamor motifs and extending the possibilities of those traditional motifs. It's understandable that we are seeing some seemingly different pamor motifs, but when we closely examine those motifs we can always relate them to a traditional motif, or to a combination of traditional motifs.

As David has noted, the name game is a pointless exercise. The simple fact of the matter is that there is no firm foundation to keris terminology. One can devote years to learning all the little quirks of keris terminology that apply in one particular location, then move 40 kilometers down the road and find that perhaps half of his hard won knowledge is not really of much use in his new location. One thing we should never get too upset about is the fact that not everybody will always agree as to name of some pamor, dhapur or whatever.

I don't necessarily agree with David about the usefulness of a pamor reference thread. If we look at past posts we do find a very large number of queries on pamor. If all these past queries had been able to be directed into a single thread it might make it a lot easier for the classifiers amongst us to apply names.

[David]

I don't necessarily agree with David about the usefulness of a pamor reference thread. If we look at past posts we do find a very large number of queries on pamor. If all these past queries had been able to be directed into a single thread it might make it a lot easier for the classifiers amongst us to apply names.
Well, i am not opposed to such a thread outright. Bring it on if the membership is so inclined. My suggestion would be close, detailed photographs that clearly show the pattern and lead to a better understanding of the construction of the pamor pattern. Sharpness and clarity of the images will be very important if the images are to be truly useful. Endless debate about the "correct" name of posted pamors will not. Let the uploading begin... :D

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, I reckon that's the way to go David.

I feel that one complete blade shot, and at least one close-up should be the minimum requirement.

[Richard Furrer]

Yeah, I reckon that's the way to go David.

I feel that one complete blade shot, and at least one close-up should be the minimum requirement.
I suggest an underneath view of the Ganja as well...it often has the cross-section of the original block from which the keris was forged...very telling as to construction of the blade.....and sometimes not related at all.

I'll go through my tiny grouping of keris and see if I have anything worth posting. As I have a new display stand (thank you Alan) I have reason to get them all in one place now.

Ric

[sirek]

If I may suggest, it might also be useful and easier to use if everyone uses the same size pictures, about: 500 x 800 pixels (fits in one screen image)

[A. G. Maisey]

You know, if we really wanted to get this thing up and running, it might be useful to harvest from old posts as a beginning strategy.

Its a simple thing to copy a pic, rework if necessary and then post again with a cross reference to the original post.

Since Richard generated this idea of a dedicated thread, I feel that the honour of carrying out this harvest should go to Richard.

I agree fully with David that this new thread should not degenerate into a bun fight over names, but I equally feel that where we have a name it should be given, however, not in isolation, but rather in a format that attaches the name to a source, for example:-

" According to Harsrinuksmo , P.123, this is pamor ron kates."

Any other opinions would be required to be posted in a similar format, that way we won't waste time and effort with endless conflicting opinions that have no solid foundation.

[Richard Furrer]

OK
If folk do not mind me harvesting past images to repost I will do that.

Ric

[David]

OK
If folk do not mind me harvesting past images to repost I will do that.

Ric
Ric, i would say that if they placed them in another thread on these forums that they are pretty much fair game. Have at it! :)

[Richard Furrer]

Here I believe is the first batch.
I selected what are interesting to me in no particular order.
Ric

[Richard Furrer]

More

Ric

[Richard Furrer]

More
Ric

[Richard Furrer]

More
Ric

[Richard Furrer]

Yet more
Ric

[Richard Furrer]

double posting Sorry
Ric

[Jean]

Hello friends,
Personally and in order to facilitate further reference I would recommend that we open a separate post for each main type of pamor so that everyone could include his specimens at any time. And as advised by Alan I would further propose that we standardize the pictures as follows: full blade viewed from both sides, sor-soran viewed fom both sides, and ganja base viewed from the peksi tip. :)
Regards

[Richard Furrer]

Jean,
Sounds good. These images were taken from other threads so you get what they posted.
Ric

[David]

Hello friends,
Personally and in order to facilitate further reference I would recommend that we open a separate post for each main type of pamor so that everyone could include his specimens at any time. And as advised by Alan I would further propose that we standardize the pictures as follows: full blade viewed from both sides, sor-soran viewed fom both sides, and ganja base viewed from the peksi tip. :)
Regards
Well then Jean, someone will need to describe and designate the names for those main types of pamor in order to coordinate this. And while this may make some sense it does not create the one go-to thread of all pamors that was the O.P.'s original request.
Certainly images of blades in their sheaths, while perhaps nice to look at, deal with dress and not pamor so i would recommend that we refrain from posting such images.

[Rick]

:)

[A. G. Maisey]

My vote would be for a single thread dealing with only pamor.

As David has said, if we begin to categorise and split into types, we then have the difficulty of identifying the pamor in order to categorise it, and what would be the basis for the categorisation?

The whole thing would be too difficult.

Nope, I really do think that we dump everything into one basket, and if the necessity should arise whereby we need to examine a particular pamor more closely, we can lift that pamor and begin a thread for its examination.

I see Ric's pamor thread as something like an overarching reference, that can then generate further threads.

[Bjorn]

I'd also prefer one thread containing all the pamor types. Separate threads would make classification difficult and would make it more difficult for interested people to come across new patterns.

[sirek]

It seems to me nevertheless useful to place them in certain categories, to make it a lot easier to look something up.

(Maybe an indication of categories used in the Dutch pamor-atlas)

Beras wutah like- pamorpatterns
Spherical- pamorpatterns
Leaf shaped- pamorpatterns
Striped- pamorpatterns
Angle shaped- pamorpatterns
Other- pamorpatterns

Otherwise you get (in my opinion) a pamorthread with hundreds of pictures you have to look through,to find something if you do not know the name of the pamor :shrug:

[Jean]

It seems to me nevertheless useful to place them in certain categories, to make it a lot easier to look something up.
Otherwise you get (in my opinion) a pamorthread with hundreds of pictures you have to look through,to find something if you do not know the name of the pamor :shrug:

Sirek,
This is exactly my concern and why I suggested a separate thread (not post, sorry for my mistake) for each main type of pamor but it seems that the idea is not popular, no problem!
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Gentlemen, as I understand it, this pamor thread was proposed not as a point of reference to identify a particular pamor, but rather as a compendium of pamor patterns. Thus, its purpose is not to "look something up", but rather, just to look.

It seems to have already been decided that we are to have pictures only in this thread, not pictures and words, the point being that we do not want to have this thread develop into a series of debates as to whether something is Ron Duru, Ron Kenduru, Ron Genduru, or Bulu Ayam --- and so forth.

So, this thread is not to be a reference to assist in the identification of a particular pamor, but simply a series of pictures of pamors, all having an equal but undefined value.

Think of it this way:- if we decided to open a thread that contained pictures of nothing but beautiful young women --- or ugly old men for that matter --- would we attempt to compartmentalise these pictures into Caucasian, Asian, Sub-Saharan African. Mediterranean etc, etc, etc, or would we be quite content to simply look at the diversity of human form? I would suggest that a series of Beyonce Knowles look-a-likes, one after the other might become just a trifle boring. One can even become bored with too much gelato, and fail to differentiate the chocolate from the hazelnut.

Then there is the problem of how we would categorise. Personally I would find this to be an extremely difficult job, because before I could categorise a pamor I would need to understand how it was made, and that is not always easy. In fact, it is sometimes extremely difficult, even for somebody who has handled thousands of blades with various pamor patterns, and who has himself made a number of different pamor patterns, to understand what was done to produce a pamor. Even to be absolutely certain as to whether a pamor motif is mlumah or miring or a combination of both is sometimes not easy, in fact, sometimes not even possible.

I have not seen this "pamor atlas" that has been mentioned, but if the categories listed by Sirek are an accurate reflection of the way in which this book categorises pamor motifs, then I'm afraid I would find it impossible to use. To me, these categorisations are meaningless.

There is one other thing that we need to understand too:- this Forum is open to the entire world: it is not the exclusive preserve of experienced and knowledgeable students and collectors of the keris. We have people here who are regular contributors and experienced collectors who are unable to differentiate between a keris and some other items of tosan aji. These people would be confounded by the task of first having to categorise a pamor motif in their own minds, before they could access a category that somebody else had decided was a particular type.

Categorisation is a fine tool, but only when everybody who uses the data base is aware of, understands, and is able to use the indicators which determine the category. Since there has been no standard established upon which to base the categorisation, the only person who would understand it would be the person who decided to place it in category A, B, or C.

My preference remains as already stated:- everything into one basket, and just look; if one particular example should grab one's attention, lift the image from the basket and commence a new thread for the discussion of that particular motif:- at that point everybody can give it whatever name they know it by, propose solutions for its manufacture, and detail its talismanic qualities.

[David]

Gentlemen, as I understand it, this pamor thread was proposed not as a point of reference to identify a particular pamor, but rather as a compendium of pamor patterns. Thus, its purpose is not to "look something up", but rather, just to look.

It seems to have already been decided that we are to have pictures only in this thread, not pictures and words, the point being that we do not want to have this thread develop into a series of debates as to whether something is Ron Duru, Ron Kenduru, Ron Genduru, or Bulu Ayam --- and so forth.

So, this thread is not to be a reference to assist in the identification of a particular pamor, but simply a series of pictures of pamors, all having an equal but undefined value.

Think of it this way:- if we decided to open a thread that contained pictures of nothing but beautiful young women --- or ugly old men for that matter --- would we attempt to compartmentalise these pictures into Caucasian, Asian, Sub-Saharan African. Mediterranean etc, etc, etc, or would we be quite content to simply look at the diversity of human form? I would suggest that a series of Beyonce Knowles look-a-likes, one after the other might become just a trifle boring. One can even become bored with too much gelato, and fail to differentiate the chocolate from the hazelnut.

Then there is the problem of how we would categorise. Personally I would find this to be an extremely difficult job, because before I could categorise a pamor I would need to understand how it was made, and that is not always easy. In fact, it is sometimes extremely difficult, even for somebody who has handled thousands of blades with various pamor patterns, and who has himself made a number of different pamor patterns, to understand what was done to produce a pamor. Even to be absolutely certain as to whether a pamor motif is mlumah or miring or a combination of both is sometimes not easy, in fact, sometimes not even possible.

I have not seen this "pamor atlas" that has been mentioned, but if the categories listed by Sirek are an accurate reflection of the way in which this book categorises pamor motifs, then I'm afraid I would find it impossible to use. To me, these categorisations are meaningless.

There is one other thing that we need to understand too:- this Forum is open to the entire world: it is not the exclusive preserve of experienced and knowledgeable students and collectors of the keris. We have people here who are regular contributors and experienced collectors who are unable to differentiate between a keris and some other items of tosan aji. These people would be confounded by the task of first having to categorise a pamor motif in their own minds, before they could access a category that somebody else had decided was a particular type.

Categorisation is a fine tool, but only when everybody who uses the data base is aware of, understands, and is able to use the indicators which determine the category. Since there has been no standard established upon which to base the categorisation, the only person who would understand it would be the person who decided to place it in category A, B, or C.

My preference remains as already stated:- everything into one basket, and just look; if one particular example should grab one's attention, lift the image from the basket and commence a new thread for the discussion of that particular motif:- at that point everybody can give it whatever name they know it by, propose solutions for its manufacture, and detail its talismanic qualities.
^^^ ummmm....yeah....what he said... :)

[Rick]

About the only qualifiers I could suggest for this thread would be to identify which pamors are Mlumah method and which are adeg . :) :shrug:

[Bjorn]

I think Alan made the point quite eloquently on why categorization would be difficult to achieve.

To this I'd like to add that this is a forum, a medium which has been designed from the ground up for discussion - not categorization. If one would truly want to categorize pamor patterns, I think frequent re-ordering would be necessary. This is something the forum is not suited to as posts cannot be easily re-arranged or edited by all. For categorization, a tool such as labels would be extremely useful - something which is unavailable to us forumites.

I would suggest that a forum is simply not the right kind of tool for any real categorization effort due to its technical limitations.

[DaveA]

Hello All,

I just stumbled on this thread. I have been collecting pictures of pamor for a couple of years. Some examples in my own collection, many elsewhere. On my website I am showing these pictures organized to the best of my knowledge based on information from the original sources. Richard, perhaps you and others will find this useful.

You can find this section of my website at http://atkinson-swords.com/collection-by-type/keris/pamor/index.html

I certainly welcome all comments and corrections. If you would like to contribute a photo I will be pleased to add it to the gallery so everyone can find it.

Best Regards,

Dave A.

[A. G. Maisey]

A nice initiative Dave.

I'd like to make a couple of comments if I may.

Firstly, the contrast in pamor is not necessarily created by combining iron and nickel bearing material. Very often pamor contrast is created by combining irons of different colours, for instance if a high phosphorus iron is combined with a low phosphorus iron the iron with high phosphorus content appears quite pale, something that is referred to as "white iron".

The names that you have given to the various pamors you show could be argued over by students of the keris until the cows come home. I suggest that where you have given a name to a pamor that you name the source of the name, that way people can argue with the original person who gave the pamor that name, rather than with you, or amongst themselves.

Again, my compliments for something that I consider to be a very valuable piece of work.

[Jean]

Hello All,


You can find this section of my website at http://atkinson-swords.com/collection-by-type/keris/pamor/index.html

I certainly welcome all comments and corrections.
Best Regards,

Dave A.

Hello Dave,
Congratulations for your valuable work and thanks for sharing it with us!
As Alan said, I would argue about the names given to some pamor patterns but as it is only my personal opinion and not backed by an expert, I will keep it for myself! :)
Best regards

[David]

I agree with both Alan and Jean here. Nice start for an ambitious project. I also agree with them on the name game and frankly i have never heard of many of the pamor names you put forth here (though pamor ID is certainly not my strong point). Not saying they are necessarily incorrect, but i am sure you will get some argument in certain quarters. I also noticed that in at least one case you had a photo labelled Kul Buntet (in "Other Pamors") that mostly shows the upper part of the blade and just a bit of a pattern that may or may not be Kul Buntet at the bottom of the photo. This might give a misinterpretation to the viewer who might assume that the pamor above the circular pattern is also part of Kul Buntet. I would say that for this project to be more effective you will need to up the quality of the images quite a bit as a large number of them are out of focus, poorly lit or poorly cropped (or all of the above) rendering their actual usage questionable for any kind of positive identification. I look forward to watching this project grow so please keep us updated. :)

[Jean]

Regarding the pamor names identified by Dave, some of them may be from Malaysian origin so we are not familiar with them as most of us better know the Javanese ones. :)
Best regards

[milandro]

Hello All,

I just stumbled on this thread. I have been collecting pictures of pamor for a couple of years. Some examples in my own collection, many elsewhere. On my website I am showing these pictures organized to the best of my knowledge based on information from the original sources. Richard, perhaps you and others will find this useful.

You can find this section of my website at http://atkinson-swords.com/collection-by-type/keris/pamor/index.html

I certainly welcome all comments and corrections. If you would like to contribute a photo I will be pleased to add it to the gallery so everyone can find it.

Best Regards,

Dave A.

While I was researching the pamor of my krises I came across this thread and in particular this post with a reference to the David J. Atkinson site. I think it is an extremely valuable reference point and while my knowledge in general and in particular of the pamors remains very much the beginner's, I too realize how difficult it is to systemize any kind of gallery within the scope of the “ taxonomy “ of the kris.

Yet, It would be very nice to have a pamor resource here too but then I can already see that each entry would be create a discussion on its own since few pamors appear to be a clear cut case and given that there are no universally recognized sources that would be to everyone’s liking and satisfaction, there will always be the matter of how to call what in which way.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Milandro, you're dead right, names of pamors --- and other things --- do vary from place to place & time to time.

But there is another factor too, one that is frequently overlooked, or maybe not even recognised outside the central core of keris people in Solo, possibly in other places also, but what I know for certain is Solo.

The importance of a pamor pattern in a keris is not nearly as important as the quality of craftsmanship, ie, "garap", in the appraisal and understanding of a keris.

Whereas for probably the majority of keris collectors outside the heartlands of Jawa, the pamor motif is the first thing they see and perhaps the most important thing they consider, for that hard core of keris connoisseurs, there are other things that come first in the appraisal of a keris.

[Bob A]

The importance of a pamor pattern in a keris is not nearly as important as the quality of craftsmanship, ie, "garap", in the appraisal and understanding of a keris.

Whereas for probably the majority of keris collectors outside the heartlands of Jawa, the pamor motif is the first thing they see and perhaps the most important thing they consider, for that hard core of keris connoisseurs, there are other things that come first in the appraisal of a keris.

How might one allow for the wear and tear of decades or centuries of the corrosive effects of time and treatment of a keris, in judging the workmanship of the blade?

[A. G. Maisey]

Good question Bob, but that question moves us from a simple matter of prioritisation of one element of appraisal to complete appraisal of all relevant factors.

I know two ways in which to appraise a keris, and we are talking only the keris itself, only the blade, the dress is not considered in this exercise. The reason for this is that it is the keris that is considered to be the way in which wealth can be stored, the dress is not thought of in the same way.

The first way is:- sepuh - wutuh - tangguh = age, condition, style/features

sepuh = old, wutuh = whole, unbroken, tangguh = characteristics (in this context)

you will notice that when we get into the world of the experts, the ahli keris, that word "tangguh" tends to have a different understanding attached to it than the understanding that is current with many people today.

To understand this better it is worth noting the Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo(Alm.) who was a late 20th century maker working in Surakarta and who held a position in the Surakarta Karaton hierarchy gave the tangguh of the keris he made as "Mataram", not "Surakarta", although he worked in Surakarta, and not 'Kamardikan" although he worked during the period following Merdeka.

He described his keris as "tangguh Mataram" because they bore the features of a keris that was able to be classified as Mataram.

So, in a typically Javanese fashion the word "tangguh" means exactly what you want it to mean, no more, and no less. ( I have been told by people who should know what they are talking about, that Humpty Dumpty was actually born in Klaten, Central Jawa, and only moved to Wonderland later in life).

The second, more modern approach to appraisal is :-

morjasirapngun = pamor, waja(steel), wesi(iron), rap (garap), wangun(appearance/shape)

I was taught that this second way is one that was invented in the market place, mainly because it is easier to manipulate to create a favourable impression.

During the 1980's & 1990's the advanced people whom I knew only ever used the sepuh/wutuh/tangguh base for appraisal, but what needs to be understood is this, each of these component parts link together and incorporate other ideas. For example, "sepuh" relates to how old the keris is, but then the characteristics of the keris, including its form, its craftsmanship & its characteristics including its "feeling" relate to "tangguh", the idea of "wutuh" relates to its state of preservation, and that state of preservation encompasses the perceived age. The whole process is circular, which once again epitomises Javanese thinking.

Put into simple terms, we cannot use the same parameters for the appraisal and thus the value base of a Surakarta period keris and a Mataram period keris.

Then there is the concept of "honour".

Not all periods have the same degree of "honour" in Javanese thought, for instance, Majapahit was the Golden Age, it is drenched in honour. Kartosuro is an era of little or no honour. As PBII said after the Kartosuro kraton had been sacked:-

"I will not sit on a throne that has been defiled by dogs".

So the honour attached to any period has a value too:- a pristine Kartosuro keris is, because of its period of origin, worth less than a Majapahit keris that is not in particularly good condition.

The short answer to your question Bob, is that the whole point of appraisal is to establish value, if a blade has not travelled well, then after other factors have been considered, it is worth less than a blade with similar age and the same tangguh but that is better preserved.

[JustYS]

Hi Alan,

What is the order of importance in morjasirapngun?

Is garap the most important and pamor the least important?

Thank you

[A. G. Maisey]

The perspective can change YS.

If I adopt Pak Parman's perspective, I think that perhaps the most important single thing is the thing that is not mentioned:- honour.

But when it comes to what we can see, Pak Parman, and as far as I was able to discern, all his friends & associates placed garap above everything else, but we need to understand that the idea of "garap" does not refer just to the sculpting, it also refers to the way in which the pamor was handled, for example, well handled wos wutah is always preferable to badly handled ron duru.

However, never lose sight of the fact that this is appraisal, that is, the objective is to fix a market price, and that market price must reflect the potential value of the investment, thus the final figure reached by the appraisal is always a balance of all elements concerned.

My own way of thinking of this is in real estate terms:- best house in the worst street or worst house in the best street, and that depends upon what we can identify as the "street" that the keris is in.

This is a decision making process, the guidelines are just that:- guidelines, it does not mean that those guidelines are graven in stone.

[Bob A]

My question above was intended to consider how to evaluate garap in light of the effects of time and use on a blade, rather than as a determination of monetary value. (It would have behooved me to take a more literal approach to "appraisal"). Sculpting would seem to be compromised over time; my supposition is that deterioration would make the evaluation more difficult.

I presume garap would include elements beyond the sculpting of the blade; would those elements still be capable of evaluation over time's deterioration, and how would that be approached in the cultural context?

[GIO]

Far from being exaustive, I took the enclosed designs of various pamors from the "Ensiklopedi". My intention was to make a sort of handbook to identify pamor designs. The list is incomplete and is missing important pamors (mainly the newest ones). Moreover some designs are very badly reproduced in the book itself.
A great work would be to prepare a file for each pamor as simplified in the drawings and join the largest possible number of photo of real kerises with the same pamor.
My work is included.

[milandro]

thanks, Grazie, :) my mother tongue is Italian (I am naturalized Dutch) so that is an extra bonus

[A. G. Maisey]

Nice job GIO

[A. G. Maisey]

Bob, let's look at a couple of words, and what those words mean.

The word "garap" is Javanese and it means "the way of making/the process of production", this is the understanding that we must use when the context of usage is Javanese.

However, the word has come into Bahasa Indonesia, and in BI it is a root word, so strictly speaking it cannot be used as a stand-alone word, but only with prefixes and suffixes. But in colloquial usage, a native speaker of Javanese, when speaking in Bahasa Indonesia, will use the word "garap" to refer to "workmanship" or "craftsmanship", rather than the correct BI word "pembuatan"(workmanship) or "ketrampilan/keahlian" (craftsmanship).

So when we use the word "garap" to refer to the craftsmanship of the maker we are in fact using a word that in the Javanese mind refers to the way in which the object --- keris or otherwise --- was made, and again, in the Javanese mind, that "way of making" includes the physical & mental skill of the maker.

This whole idea of using foreign words interpolated into a different language means that to understand what is really meant we need to understand the meanings in the foreign language. In the case of the word "garap" we --- as English speakers --- tend to gloss that word as "craftsmanship" but in its original language it is understood to encompass much more than the English word "craftsmanship" conveys to a native speaker of English.

When the word "garap" is included into the parameters used for appraisal those parameters move away from the hardcore, original parameters that were used by the people from whom I learnt and become parameters that are more suited to the market place than to the world of Javanese traditional values.

When the older system of appraisal is used:-
sepuh - wutuh - tangguh = age, condition, style/features

sepuh = old, wutuh = whole, unbroken, tangguh = characteristics (in this context)

the garap, that is, the "way in which the keris was produced" does not get a mention, because it automatically becomes a part of the appraisal system used to gauge the core parameters.

However, in the "market-place" parameters of appraisal "garap" does get a separate mention, so obviously, where the passing of time has corrupted the original characteristics of the keris, it becomes impossible to appraise the "garap" because it no longer provides evidence sufficient for appraisal.

In practice, Javanese ahli keris and dealers do not use pencil & paper to come to a determination of value, it is all a mental process, but if we were to use a pencil & paper it would work by starting with, say, ten value points for each element of appraisal , as each element was appraised, the value of ten would be decreased by the number of points by which the appraised keris did not meet perfection, so instead of a maximum point total of 30 (for the three element system) we might finish up with only 15 points, that 15 points would reduce the known or estimated value of a perfect example to 50% of the value.

Of course, all this is pretty rubbery, and subject to opinion, as we know, all opinions are not equal, and this is why Javanese keris appraisers get paid for their opinions. Exactly the same as appraisers of any items of value are paid, be it real property, livestock, jewellery or whatever.

When it comes right down to it, appraisal is about setting a value.

I understand that you were not looking for this sort of answer, you were just curious as to how craftsmanship --- our interpretation of the Javanese word "garap" --- can be appraised if the original form & evidence of execution has been altered by the passing of time.

The short answer to this is that it must be based upon the remaining evidence, if that evidence is insufficient to produce an informed opinion, then it cannot be appraised. In essence, no different to the way a western world appraiser of any art work would form an opinion.

[milandro]

for those who read Dutch (or can use Google translate)

this page shows a compendium , of course some would agree and some would agree to disagree

https://aberkel13.wixsite.com/keris/pamor

[werecow]

Are pedangs welcome on this thread/board? I have only one blade with pamor so far, and it is perhaps not as fancy as some of the blades on this thread (a bit of damage to the hilt), but I really like handling this little sword. The weight and grip angle makes it feel both choppy and stabby (it brings the point exactly in line with the outstretched arm without hyperextending the wrist, and the forward slant makes it feel somehow "eager" to chop, if that makes sense).

[Anthony G.]

Not exactly what I had in mind Sirek.
I am not personally seeking a discussion of pamor per se, but a gallery of patterns.
As a blackssmith I wish to reverse engineer the techniques used in creating the patterns and as such I collect photos (and keris) which I find interesting.

Ric

Interesting. Try this :D

[David]

Are pedangs welcome on this thread/board? I have only one blade with pamor so far, and it is perhaps not as fancy as some of the blades on this thread (a bit of damage to the hilt), but I really like handling this little sword. The weight and grip angle makes it feel both choppy and stabby (it brings the point exactly in line with the outstretched arm without hyperextending the wrist, and the forward slant makes it feel somehow "eager" to chop, if that makes sense).
Actually no. From the start we have reserved this forum solely for the discussion of keris and keris related subjects. But is is an interesting pedang and you should start a separate thread about it on the Ethno Forum. :)

[werecow]

Alright, will do that sometime soon. }|:o)