messer, kiegsmesser, grosses messer, langes messer

[cornelistromp]

definition:
a messer can be a tool, also inside Houses, or a weapon, In principle, with an asymmetric grip and without a pommel, Instead, you often find a cap that covers the upper part of the handle. The blade is in first place suitable for cutting, but also generally can be used for thrusting.
it has generally a straight single-edged blade with a flat cross-section , but may also be curved. CF Seitz Balnkwaffen I.


There is a theory that knife-cutlers and swordsmiths had to stay within their own field and each keep a close eye on violations.
this implies that these large knives with a wide tang en riveted gripplates (technically speaking a knife) were made by knife cutlers.

I found a nice summary on wikipedia;
Messer (German for "knife", also großes Messer "great knife", Hiebmesser "cutting knife", Kriegsmesser "war knife", etc.) during the German Late Middle Ages and Renaissance (14th to 16th centuries) was a term for the class of single-edged bladed weapons, deriving from the medieval falchion and preceding the modern sabre.[1]

Its hilt included a straight cross-guard and Nagel (a nail-like–Nagel literally means 'nail'–protrusion that juts out from the right side of the cross-guard away from the flat of the blade) to protect the wielder's hands. Quite notable in its construction was the attachment of blade to the hilt via a slab tang sandwiched between two wooden grip plates that were pegged into place. Also of note is that many pommels were 'drawn out' or curved to one side of the hilt (edge side), a feature known as a "hat-shaped pommel". Extant examples seem to have an overall length of 30 inches with a 24.5 in (62 cm) blade, and a weight between 2–2.5 lb (0.91–1.1 kg).

The Messer was part of the curriculum of several fencing manuals in the 14th and 15th centuries, including Lecküchner, Codex Wallerstein and Albrecht Dürer.[2]

Although often confused with the Kriegsmesser ("War Knife"), it has to be clearly distinguished from the Grossmesser, being more than 1500 mm long and shaped more like a scimitar, originating as the Hungarian version of the German Zweihänder. Kriegsmessers were used by professional soldiers, typically Landsknechts. An example of this, also called a "Long Knife", is preserved in the Hofjagd- und Rüstkammer, Vienna.

1.^ Vesey, A.; B. Norman (1980). The rapier and small-sword, 1460-1820. Arms and Armour Press. pp. 68–71. ISBN 9780405130892.
2.^ Anglo, Sydney; B. Norman (2000). The martial arts of Renaissance Europe. Yale University Press. pp. 102–103. ISBN 9780300083521.

attached pictures of messers, from my collection.

[cornelistromp]

messers in art.

[cornelistromp]

......

[cornelistromp]

some additional.

[Matchlock]

Very good compilation, Jasper, thank you! ;)

I'd like to add some more period artwork depicting messer and a hand-and-a-half sword from one of many Late Medieval Acts of the Saints, this particular one dated 1513.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

thanks michael very nice coloured drawings.

[cornelistromp]

some xtra.

[cornelistromp]

some xtra

[cornelistromp]

a small messer.

[Matchlock]

Please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=135454&highlight=messer#post135454

[cornelistromp]

Please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=135454&highlight=messer#post135454

Hi Michael,

a very Nice one thank you, the style looks like a combination of the 3 posted in #1.

best,
Jasper

[Matchlock]

I know it does! ;)

m

[Matchlock]

The Emperor Maximilian's famous jester, Kunz von der Rosen (+1519) with his Grosses Messer, portraryed by Daniel Hopfer in 1493; and another portrait of von der Rosen.

m

[cornelistromp]

messer in Cluny paris,the leftmost in the picture.

best,
Jasper

[broadaxe]

Lat one isn't a messer, it's a hand-and-a-half saber in the swiss tradition. Hilt construction is of the sword type. Very famous, but not in Cluny, in Musee de l'armee.

[Matchlock]

Thanks, Broadaxe,

For pointing this out!

I attach some more close ups of this unusual piece.


m

[cornelistromp]

Lat one isn't a messer, it's a hand-and-a-half saber in the swiss tradition. Hilt construction is of the sword type. Very famous, but not in Cluny, in Musee de l'armee.

it is also no saber!
saber; follow the definition of Heribert Seitz Blankwaffen p183.
the word saber has a magyaric origin szablya , Servian and russian sablja , french and english sabre, spanish sable italian sciabla . The saber is a weapon that is worn on the side, with long curved blade and asymmetrical, often slightly forward bent handle/grip.
the curvature of the saber offers an extension of the cutting edge and is for a combined blow and cutting function created.

The weapon under discussion has no curved blade and is therefor according to the definition of Seitz but also others fe JP Puype no saber!

further is the hilt construction also not of a sword type, because each sword has a pommel.This is necessary in order to be a sword and not another weapon.

It is a further development of the Falchion type and forerunner of the Messer.


In the swiss tradition? can you please explain what you mean with this?
Do you know Swiss art with this weapon depicted or similar Swiss weapons?

Indeed, the weapon is located in the musée lármee, my apologies.
best,

[Matchlock]

This piece could by identical to the one in post #4.
The blade is struck with a pi mark.

Sold Hermann Historica, Oct. 20, 2005.


m

[cornelistromp]

Dorotheum 12 June lot 33, with thanks to Michael.

[fernando]

And where is Michael, Jasper ... do tou happen to know ?
A couple weeks since he has last been around :confused:

[fernando]

Your PM box is full, Jasper.

[cornelistromp]

recently I came across this sword, found in a canal in the Netherlands
transitional type of sword to Messer, the long handle gives plenty of counter weight and takes over the function of the pommel. The handle has the construction of a sword handle so without plates and rivets.
a great advantage above a sword of this type is that the handle offers plenty of room for two-handed techniques.
the blade is doubled edged, thin making it more of a cutting sword.
with a cross of which the bottomricassopart forms the end of the grip also seen on some Katzbalger and cinqueda swords, to date late 15th century.

[broadaxe]

Very strange, highly interesting! Do you have close-up photos of the hilt, and stats of the sword? I would like to see how the grip has been put together. There are circular grooves that show marks of binding cord or reinforcing ring/ferrule.

[cornelistromp]

the dimension unfortunately I have not measured, but best I can reproduce on experience;
griplength 20-22cm and 105-110cm allover.
the canalures of the ricassoblok are also cut in the grip, fm there are petaled flowers punched in the grip as decoration.
In the middle of the grip was still a piece of the original rope available.
The iron plate ring at the end of the grip was gone.
furthermore there is a molded pommel plate and the tang is peened.

this is the first time I have encountered a sword with this type of construction. First I thought that this was an early sword Oakeshott type XIV 1300-1320 where later in 1500, in his second/third life a new grip was added. However after inspection in hands, my opinion is that the sword has been designed this way, most probably around 1500. The blade is probably dated, next to the sun/cross are gothic digits engaved.
Iam working on it, it is not easy, Hope Michael will be back with us soon.

[cornelistromp]

I have the actual dimensions;
allover 108cm
blade 86cm
original cross 20cm/2cm is missing
grip 20cm
ricasso + steel part of grip 2cm

[cornelistromp]

www.bonhams.com/auctions/14917/lot/154/

[Matchlock]

Another, with a straight but shortened blade, was also sold Bonhams on Nov 30, 2011.

m

[cornelistromp]

The following excavated water find, actually is not a messer because it has a pommel and no riveted grip.
but due to the single edged blade there are similarities with the KriegsMesser.
this type can be seen as the precursor of the extremely rare two handed Katzbalger, with 8-shaped guard and similar mushroom shaped pommel.

proabaly from practical considerations the very long parryrods were bent to become less wide in a eight shaped figure, making them more manageable in close combat,while the balance is maintained

landsknecht sword late 15th Century
lenght 114CM
crosswidth 32CM

[cornelistromp]

KHM Hofjagd- und Rüstkammer, Vienna, Austria NR 173 CIRCA 1490

[cornelistromp]

...

[stekemest]

All photos in this thread are copyrighted by either the author of the thread, Cornelistromp, or the authors of the respective posts, except mentioned otherwise.
That's quite funny because some of the pictures themselves are copyrighted, for example those of my own Messer. ;) But I have no problem having them shown here.
I sold my own piece one or two years ago, so unfortunately, I can't show any more pictures. Generally, the typical "Messer" seems to possess a riveted handle because - that's my guess - it evolved out of the "Bauernwehr" (peasant's knife). That's a dagger-length weapon with riveted handle and single edged blade that became popular in the 14th century (for such pieces and their similarities to the "Messer", see, for example, Hugo Schneider: Waffen im Schweizerischen Landesmuseum, p. 268 ff.). There is no strict definition of what a Messer actually is, but to me it makes sense to restrict this term to weapons with riveted handle and single edged blade with varying degrees of curvature.

[batjka]

I am researching bearing of arms by Jews in German lands in the middle ages (of which, contrary to popular belief, there is a good amount of evidence). Curiously, there is a ruling by Rabbi Meir of Rothenburg, who was a leading rabbinical authority in the latter part of the 13th century. In this ruling, Meir of Rothenburg says that is if forbidden to enter a synagogue with an unsheathed Langes Messer. I always thought that the above-named weapon was in use from the end of 14th to the 16th Centuries. Meir of Rothenburg's ruling places it 100 years earlier. So, is there any historical evidence of Langes Messer being in use in the 13th Century?

[cornelistromp]

I am researching bearing of arms by Jews in German lands in the middle ages (of which, contrary to popular belief, there is a good amount of evidence). Curiously, there is a ruling by Rabbi Meir of Rothenburg, who was a leading rabbinical authority in the latter part of the 13th century. In this ruling, Meir of Rothenburg says that is if forbidden to enter a synagogue with an unsheathed Langes Messer. I always thought that the above-named weapon was in use from the end of 14th to the 16th Centuries. Meir of Rothenburg's ruling places it 100 years earlier. So, is there any historical evidence of Langes Messer being in use in the 13th Century?

actually yes.
Morgan Maciejowski Bible bible 1250

best,
Jasper

[Kristjanr]

I am researching bearing of arms by Jews in German lands in the middle ages (of which, contrary to popular belief, there is a good amount of evidence). Curiously, there is a ruling by Rabbi Meir of Rothenburg, who was a leading rabbinical authority in the latter part of the 13th century. In this ruling, Meir of Rothenburg says that is if forbidden to enter a synagogue with an unsheathed Langes Messer. I always thought that the above-named weapon was in use from the end of 14th to the 16th Centuries. Meir of Rothenburg's ruling places it 100 years earlier. So, is there any historical evidence of Langes Messer being in use in the 13th Century?

That's an interesting find but I don't think that the Lange Messer of the 13th century were like the single edged swords with a cross bar and 'nagel' that one normally thinks of. The 13th century Lange Messer probably didn't even have 'nagel' let alone a cross bar. I'd hypothesise that the weapon that rabbi had in mind was a smaller version of the humongous knife being wielded by the knight in that illustration above in this thread. Lange Messer at this time probably looked more akin to oversized steak knives or machetes. It is surprising to find that despite all the other restrictions they had to live with, Jews were still allowed to carry side arms.

Concerning the origins of these weapons, I have my doubts about the fact that their origin lies in laws prohibiting commoners to carry swords since these laws were as far as I know not universal. I think the 15th century Langes Messer evolved from the classic knives of the common people because of guild rules/laws. Medieval society was highly stratified and craftsmen were rigidly divided into guilds that did not allow you to just set up shop in their town/region/city and start churning out swords, knives etc. Often the only way to become a master swordsmith, armourer, weaver etc. was to either marry the widow of a master or one of his daughters if he had no sons. So if you were a knife maker with an ambition to cater to the sword market and there was no master swordsmiths widow to marry you were up a creek without a paddle. So what they did was to make obscenely long knives that eventually grew cross guards. The Lange Messer, being a sword in all but name, are an effort by lowly knife makers to fill the demand for low cost swords without stepping on the toes of the swordmakers guilds. The sword smiths probably eventually tolerated this because there was still a difference in prestige between owning a sword (a $180.000 Ferrari) and a full blown 3 foot long classic Langes Messer with cross bar (a $25.000 Ford Mustang). Owning a Langes Messer type sword still screamed 'commoner' into the 16th century.

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, Kristjanr :cool: .

[Kristjanr]

Welcome to the forum, Kristjanr :cool: .

Thanks :)

[cornelistromp]

prive collection of a friend.
messer with an 8-shaped guard, river Lek find in the Netherlands.
grip and rivets are a new addition.

[Cerjak]

In the collection of the Royal armouries described as a hunting sword but in fact a messer.

[Cerjak]

A similar Example sold by Fisher in 2004
Description:56*
Kriegsmesser. österreichisch, Ende 15. Jh. Eisengefäss korr. Knauf ähnlich Vogelkopf, gerade Parierstange aus
Rundeisen mit "gequetschten" Kugelabschlüssen. Rechteckiges, knaufwärts gerichtetes Stichblatt mit vertikalen
Zierrillen. Die breite Angel mit Hirschhornplatten belegt, wohl erg., fünf Nietenlöcher. Rückenklinge, stark korr.,
schartig, wenig gekrümmt, beidseitig schwache Hohlschliffe, nach Ferse zweischneidig. Reste von Marken,
erkennbar Sichel und Stern.

[awdaniec666]

A similar Example sold by Fisher in 2004
Description:56*
Kriegsmesser. österreichisch, Ende 15. Jh. Eisengefäss korr. Knauf ähnlich Vogelkopf, gerade Parierstange aus
Rundeisen mit "gequetschten" Kugelabschlüssen. Rechteckiges, knaufwärts gerichtetes Stichblatt mit vertikalen
Zierrillen. Die breite Angel mit Hirschhornplatten belegt, wohl erg., fünf Nietenlöcher. Rückenklinge, stark korr.,
schartig, wenig gekrümmt, beidseitig schwache Hohlschliffe, nach Ferse zweischneidig. Reste von Marken,
erkennbar Sichel und Stern.

Could you possibly provide us with images of the makers marks on that blade?