Sinhala / Sri Lankan Swords? [Archive] - Page 2

Jim McDougall

1st February 2014, 02:54 AM

At last! I finally completed my three posts with images, posts #249, 250 and 251. Due to scanner issues I enlisted the help of my wife (my tech support) to use her phone to take these, so sorry for the drawn out grouping.

#249: Images of the Philip III sword from c1603, where this sword is in the Royal Armouries of Madrid as catalogued by Calvert in 1907. It is illustrated in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (1975, opcit. and text on p.390).

What interesting here is the lionhead on this sword (of European form of course) and most notably the monster head on the scabbard tip .

It would seem that the use of figure heads was in place in Italy, and possibly elsewhere in Europe by mid 16th century, and as seen here, this and the 'monster' head were already featured on swords in Spain prior to the Hasekura mission.

If indeed the blade was produced in Spain placing this type of monster head on the peak of the blade, and spurious markings (as often placed) were added, could the second marking be a European attempt at Japanese characters?
I think we can rule out China as a place for blade provenance, and as seen, the Philippine possibility is out. Oriental influences seem quite present by the time of this sword c.1603.

The other images are pretty much explained in each post.

I want to note that these images and data are from the books referenced and photos using phone as noted.

***** Note: Apparantly there is conflict in whether the kastane and keris were acquired by Hasekura in Madrid at audience with Philip III.....or in another account which suggests these were obtained in Philippines -on behalf of Philip III ? Naturally confirmation of which is important in the consideration of these comparative examples.

Prasanna Weerakkody

1st February 2014, 03:53 AM

Dear KukulzA

I am including a few references regarding a basic timeline of Sri Lankan swords primarily from the publication “Ancient Swords Daggers & Knives in the Sri Lankan museums” by P.H.D.H.De Silva and S. Wickramasinghe (2006)

You are correct that the Kasthana and the D guard swords are the last common forms of the Sinhala swords. The earliest swords where evidence survive from the Anuradhapura and Polonnaruwa kingdoms going back more than 2000 bp. were mostly down curved swords and straight long double edged blades. There are many forms of short curved and Gladius type weapons illustrated but with little surviving artifacts. the early types are always simple and in-ornate. the transformation of ornate arms (in general) is possibly in the Gampola or Dambadeni kingdom era and couple of centuries prior to the arrival of the portuguese. the massive destruction wrought on by the portuguese destroyed most of the incidental evidence that would have assisted in constructing a proper timeline.

Vandoo the proper spelling is Sri Lanka and not SIRI Lanka

Regards
Prasanna

Prasanna Weerakkody

1st February 2014, 04:12 AM

sorry images failed to attach- re sending

Prasanna

Prasanna Weerakkody

1st February 2014, 04:32 AM

Adding two more swords. including "Kandy ritual sword" extracted from a paper by G.L.Anandalal Nanayakkara (included in the above publication) which I believe is a valuable link as a transitional surviving link between the polonnanruwa era swords and the Kasthana. it also contain predecessors of the animal forms on the guards as well.

p.s. there is a class of replica weapons used in Devala and Kovils where different deities are worshiped. the arms used usually parallel actual arms in use at the time. so IF this was only a "ritual sword" there was very likely a real arm as well at that period of a similar form.

prasanna

Gustav

1st February 2014, 11:17 AM

Dear Prasanna, thank you for these posts. At least something substantial and relevant here.

fernando

1st February 2014, 01:01 PM

Magnificent material Prasana.
Although not properly substantial but, i suppose, based on serious evidence, is the 'calachurro', if you allow me to go back to this subject, already posted in #71 and #82. This could have been a non adorned but certainly popular field edged weapon, manifestly used during the XVII century, if not before, perhaps only so far missing chroniclers to have written about it.
It is not a coincidence that Antonio Bocarro mentioned it in 1635, João Ribeiro in 1685 and Friar João de Queiroz in 1687.
This short sword, named by Ribeiro as traçado, potentialy the wrong spelling for terçado, name that, in the short sword typology, refers a rather short sword with a wide blade. He precised its length being of 2 1/2 palms (some 55 cms.); while Bocarro refers to its wide and short blade, although not much curved. Friar João de Queiroz emphasizes its frequent resource in combat.
Sebastião Dalgado (1855-1922), author of works like Dialect Indo-Portuguese of Ceylon, in his Luso-Asiatic glossary, in atempting that calachurro is a portuguesation of Kãla + Churi (dead knife = killing knife) is afirmative in that in modern times its name shifted to Kirichchya, a term borrowed from the Malay keris.
I know i am repeating myself but am wondering that, at light of later research and developments, you might have new assumptions on this subject ... like, for example, atempting on match between the Kãlachuri and some of the images posted, as also with the examples shown by VVV in his post #8, which book H. Parker's Ancient Ceylon you 'might' have.
I am sorry for returning to an old approach ... only hoping it could by now contribute a little more to Siri Lankan swords theme.

Jim McDougall

1st February 2014, 02:47 PM

Dear Prasanna, thank you for these posts. At least something substantial and relevant here.

I absolutely agree that Prasanna has continually presented outstanding and profoundly significant material here. Thank you so much Prasanna.
I think it is important to note that he is Sri Lankan and not only with excellent resources in the location we are trying to learn more on, but rightfully proud of his heritage.

We others that are trying to learn more are using whatever resources we have, and making an honest effort to present and analyze whatever we can to develop our understanding. I know that I have had books strewn about along with many years of notes from earlier researches for days here in this limited space I have. I spent many hours yesterday and the day before going through resources and with difficulties trying to post images etc.
My goal was to illustrate what European sources may have influenced the kastane in its traditional form.

There seems to be a derisive posture toward the efforts of some of us to enter into discussion using the material and data we have available. I would point out that we have done so in good faith, and our intentions have only been to learn more on these intriguing weapons.

How unfortunate that common courtesy cannot prevail without these kinds of comments.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

1st February 2014, 03:18 PM

Dear Prasanna, thank you for these posts. At least something substantial and relevant here.

Salaams Gustav, If I can simply illustrate how far we have advanced on this thread our understanding of the developed main thrust of this topic "The Kastane " and incidentally the broader view regarding other Sri Lankan weapons as well as the fine addition by Prasanne on the likely origins of the sword seen on the Sri Lankan National Flag etc;

We are perhaps close to identifying the Japanese item with what could well be a Falchion/Storta blade ... which forms a great little side avenue for research and which has taken many hours of deliberate and exacting research. The avenue includes potential links to oriental weapons and influence through Portuguese involvement in Sri Lankan designs from the outset in 1505. The journey by Hasekura Tsunenaga has been an amazing episode where parallel research opened my eyes in addition to the Sri Lankan/Chinese relations with the Ming dynasty etc. Getting a clear picture of Hasekura's involvement has been confounded by incomplete data and conflicting reports but I believe we are much better informed than before and despite the idiosyncrasies of 400 years of clouded detail understandably lost in time.

Much of the involvement by the three invaders Portuguese, Dutch and British has been unfurled and their effects on the key weapon in the Sri Lankan blades arsenal; The Kastane. We have observed the link with the Royal Workshops, the development of the weapon as a Court Sword and badge of office and rank. The ancient historical link and influence of design by Buddhist/Hindu pre-history has been given great attention.

Over all great strides have been made in our understanding; Therefor I have to ask of your remark above...Is that the best you can do?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Andrew

1st February 2014, 11:35 PM

Dear Prasanna, thank you for these posts. At least something substantial and relevant here.

What an uncharitable and unproductive comment, Gustav. Troll-like, even.

I suggest a vacation from this thread.

Andrew

1st February 2014, 11:36 PM

Therefor I have to ask of your remark above...Is that the best you can do?

Let's not go down this path, please.

ariel

2nd February 2014, 03:52 AM

Dear Prasanna,
In your post #254 you showed an old and presumably Sri Lankan patissa.
Quite some time ago I posted 2 of my patissas:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6012

Do you think they might be Sri Lankan as well? Will you hazard a guess re. their age?

They are made out of bloomery steel, the earliest and the most primitive way of obtaining enough material to hammer into a blade.

Prasanna Weerakkody

2nd February 2014, 05:46 AM

Fernando- still a bit puzzled by the Calachurro. The term “Kala Kiringne” is still in use for a type of knuckle duster. but even the word “Kala Kirichchiya” is not in proper use as to my knowledge. been discussing this with some Angam folk as well, but nothing significant is extant that clearly indicate this arm.

My personal assumption though is that it probably refers to the short wide bladed sword depicted as in the Gladiator at “Ambekke devale” illustration above. though no artifacts of these swords are found this sword is the most prolifically illustrated sword of the period. I am including an image from a frieze in Ridi-vihara depicting gladiators fighting with these swords.

Ariel, interesting to see those swords. The similar styled Sri Lankan swords are dated roughly between 5th -12th centuries in both Anuradhapura and Polonnaruwa kingdoms. I would not be sure of a particular name given to them though; there are references to patissa in certain sources I am not sure if it refers to this. There is one curious difference though in construction; the Sinhala swords are assembled as hilt and guard sections inserted to a rod extension of the blade and held together with a screw on end piece similar to the X -ray radiograph image shown. your hilts seem to be cast separately and fitted to the blade with pins. (??)

Prasanna

fernando

2nd February 2014, 02:10 PM

...I am including an image from a frieze in Ridi-vihara depicting gladiators fighting with these swords...
Amazing!
See how a Portuguese has depicted the Chingalas* in the XVI century ... pass his naíve trace and artist's freedom.
(Watercolours belonging to the Casanatense Codice, from which i have both a basic and a de luxe reproduction ... both full of support articles and chronicles).

* or Chingalás; how the Portuguese called the Sinhalese in those days.

.

Prasanna Weerakkody

2nd February 2014, 03:22 PM

Fernando,
great to have this image- actually it seems quite accurate, the Hair and mustache styles, ornaments etc. match the style of the Sinhalese (Chingalas) at the time. so the weapons should also be faithfully reproduced. the swords match the local illustrations as well. Fantastic image find. Thanks again for sharing.

Prasanna

fernando

2nd February 2014, 04:55 PM

Glad to be useful :)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

3rd February 2014, 08:25 AM

Salaams All. Note to Library.

One question hangs over the location in which a presentation of an Indonesian Kris and ostensibly a Sri Lankan Kastane (hybrid?) was made to Hasekura...Where and when was this? No mention is made of the fact when he achieved an audience with King Philip III.

Would this presention have been logical insofar as we are considering two SE Asian weapons and one with potential Chinese markings on the blade? It doesn't add up. :) However during my investigation I turned to the Philippines...viz;

Japan in Philippine history
By Ambeth R. Ocampo
Philippine Daily Inquirer
10:42 pm | Thursday, October 31st, 2013

Quote"Hasekura Tsunenaga was a Japanese samurai who was received in Mexico, Spain, the Vatican, and the Philippines as a Spanish ambassador in a romantic seven-year journey. He was given an audience by King Philip III in Madrid, was baptized at the Real Monasterio de Descalzas Reales where the Duke Lerma stood as ninong, then was received by Pope Paul V and granted honorary citizenship by the City of Rome.

Hasekura’s last stop was Manila, where he wrote a cheerful letter to his son in 1619 saying he was shopping and preparing to sail home. The original letter is displayed in the Sendai City Museum together with an Indonesian kris and a dagger from Sri Lanka that Hasekura acquired in the Philippines. I was disappointed that no Philippine artifacts were extant. Not in the exhibition are archival documents on the Hasekura mission from the Archivo General de Indias in Sevilla written during Hasekura’s stay in Manila: an inventory of presents sent to the Shogun by the Governor-General of the Philippines, reports from the Bishop of Cebu and the Archbishop of Manila regarding the rivalry between the Jesuits and the other religious orders doing missionary work in Japan, and reports on the continued persecution of Christians in Japan". Unquote

Thus it appears we may be looking at Chinese influence to a presentation or acquired hybrid Kastane (the fullers and Makara/ Gargoyle style blade mark being key... though the Storta blade may still be in contention etc.

There is an interesting background description to the Kris at forum on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12306&highlight=kris+hasekura by A.G. MAISEY that is essential background reading and from which I have recovered the picture below. Wikepedia carries the same artwork and under it states that they were "acquired" from The Philippines. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasekura_Tsunenaga

See also http://www.japanartsandcrafts.com/8212.html Indonesian kris and Ceylonese dagger (acquired in the Philippines), presented by Hasekura to Date Masamune upon his return; Sendai City Museum Hasekura reported his travels to Date Masamune upon his arrival in Sendai. It is recorded that he remitted a portrait of Pope Paul V, a portrait of himself in prayer (shown above), and a set of Ceylonese and Indonesian daggers acquired in the Philippines, all preserved today in the Sendai City Museum.

From this picture and fresh timeline /location evidence, it is perhaps relevant to state loosely what we are looking at and viz-a-viz the comparison with the Popham artwork.

Notwithstanding the blades...(although there is probably a complete study within that alone; see note below*) The timescale encompasses the two varied styles of the Kastane Hilt since certainly the Hybrid Kastane at Sendai museum does have a Sri Lankan Hilt ( marked by the obvious Vajra Quillons etc). That Hilt in clear Lion form whilst the Popham, painted from an item of the same time frame, shows a more elaborate Gargoyle/ Serpentine main pommel and grip treatment associated with Buddhist Deity influence.

This suggests broad artistic licence, interpretation and choice of design in the early period of Portuguese involvement in Sri Lanka...and as already reasoned so far which, incidentally, was the main aim of the comparison.

Many thanks to the involved participants so far, with particular emphasis on the fine historical and other input by Prasanna, Jim, Vandoo, Fernando, Gustav and others.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

* The blade looks like a number of styles including Chinese, Storta and in fact some German examples going back to the Falchion era and as outlined by Jim ..Another blade looks similar, the Quderra, however what seems to mark the issue is the blade stamp on one hand and the large serpent like creature identified by me earlier as Makara with a Chinese fuller style as already noted. On balance however it appears that the blade may have been of Storta influence and perhaps worked by a Chinese bladesmith with the design being added .. The influence of an Oriental design feature is certainly more likely in that we may now realize where the blades were obtained during Hasekuras two year stay in The Philippines before returning finally to Japan. :shrug:

fernando

3rd February 2014, 04:18 PM

... Many thanks to the involved participants so far ...
So kind of you Ibrahiim ... but, AFAIAC, you needn't bother resuming thanks for one's contribution to the thread. Remember that its author was someone else; you are then saved from the burden of such protocol :cool: .

Jim McDougall

3rd February 2014, 11:40 PM

I have decided to open a new thread with its title specific to the kastane which I hope will better attend to discussion on these in particular without further consternation to the broader scope of this thread. While the title here is of course Sinhala/Sri Lankan swords, which obviously includes the profoundly notable kastane, it would seem its complexities and far more comprehensive requirements would be better served in separate discussion.

I would invite anyone reading here with specific interest in the kastane to not only peruse the discussion thus far here, but to also go to "The Sinhalese Kastane: Its Development, Decoration and Symbolism" which will be concurrently on this forum.

I hope this will better appoint the focus in addressing these topics, and although I am not personally the author of this particular thread, I would like to take the liberty of thanking everyone who has participated here as well, and especially KuKulz for the original post. The weapons of Sri Lanka overall, are fascinating as is the remarkable history of this nation , so I look forward to continued development in discussion here as well as on the other thread.

VANDOO

13th February 2014, 06:04 AM

HERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF SOUTH INDIAN SWORDS. #1. PICTURE IS REFERRED TO AS A PATTISA AND HAS A 18.5 INCH BLADE. #2. PICTURE SOUTH INDIA TEMPLE SWORDS. #3. NAYAR TEMPLE SWORD.
THESE ARE SIMULAR TO THE SWORDS DEPICTED ABOVE. I ASSUME DURING CEYLONS HISTORY POWER MAY HAVE BEEN HELD BY KINGDOMS IN SOUTHERN INDIA OVER PARTS OF CEYLON AND LIKEWISE CEYLON MAY HAVE HELD TERRITORY IN SOUTHERN INDIA. THIS OFTEN OCCURS EITHER BY TREATY OR FORCE OF ARMS BUT AS I DON'T KNOW THE HISTORY I DON'T KNOW.
I HAVE SEEN SOMETHING SIMULAR IN THIS SWORD FORM (ESPECIALLY THE BLADE ) IN JAPANESE AND CHINESE ART USUALLY REPRESENTED AS A TEMPLE SWORD.

Jim McDougall

14th February 2014, 05:28 PM

Excellent entry Barry! Most assuredly there were kingdoms in India ruling parts of Ceylon during various early periods, and that is very much part of the complex and diverse history of this fascinating island. In 'Deraniyagala' (1942) there are a number of swords depicted in plates of line drawings very similar to these you have posted.
It is of course apparent that these swords of the Southern Indian kingdoms were strongly represented in early Sinhalese armouries.

With reference to elements which may have had some representation in the transitional forms which became eventually the kastane, please note the curious langet like extension on the upper sword in the second photo.
This same form occurs in kastane in the quillon configuration of the guard.

Maurice

21st February 2014, 02:03 PM

My theory on the Sri Lankan Kastane offers a design formulated by a joint Portuguese Sri Lankan workshops situation using The Makara combined onto a hilt with Vijra (Buddhist influence) elements(false quillons) onto which other Deities(Nagas) and the human faced crocodile on the hand guard are spilled and including a rain guard formed of the Makara (peacock form) tail.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I think there is also a bit mix in it of a monkeyhead, as you can see above the makara head on the picture.
:D

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

24th February 2014, 07:01 AM

I think there is also a bit mix in it of a monkeyhead, as you can see above the makara head on the picture.
:D

Salaams Maurice... Makara!! .. Dragon, crocodile or serpent like head, ears of a mouse or pig, the horns of a goat, the body of an antelope or deer, the trunk of an elephant, a curved tail like that of a snake, peacock or fish and feet like those of a panther or a dog, with two horns on the forehead, its sides and bloated belly sometimes covered with leopard like spots, it is like nothing on earth... hmmm ?? Not sure ... it could be...

However, what about the huge grey stone object at the front? :D

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

David

24th February 2014, 07:25 PM

They live! :D

fernando

24th February 2014, 07:28 PM

Oh ... a pigfish. Very tasty :D

David

24th February 2014, 11:51 PM

Oh ... a pigfish. Very tasty :D
Oh, i thought it was a Makara Nando. ;) :D

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

14th March 2014, 07:02 PM

Salaams All,

Not withstanding the excellent addition by Vandoo, Maurice and others this thread appears to have somewhat stalled, however, to lend a hand in its direction I have stumbled upon an interesting website outlining other weapons which may be of bearing.

Fascinating insights appear to describe order of battle, artillery, (even wooden barrels) and bows 'n arrows, lances and other sword forms ...some as throwing weapons from atop elephants in this ever incredible story of Sri Lankan ancient weaponry. Please see http://sirimunasiha.wordpress.com/about/military-history-of-sri-lanka/the-sinhala-army-during-the-portuguese-dutch-and/

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :D

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

16th March 2014, 04:59 PM

Salaams All,

Further more interesting variation appears in http://vedda.org/knox-veddas.htm where Knox describes a tribal entity called the Veddas with specially developed axe and bow/arrow. A study of the English captives 20 plus years in captivity inspired Defoe's "Robinson Cruseo" and is a treasure of pictorial and ethnographic details now at our fingertips. :p
The full account needs to be viewed since it is clear that the Vedda were intent on showing a false hand to the English and so as to disguise their actual lifestyle they played to the audience who at the time soaked up all they were fed with..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

19th March 2014, 09:52 AM

Salaams all...Spears of Sri Lanka. For interest from...http://srilanka.for91days.com/tag/tradition/
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

napoleon

23rd March 2014, 07:09 PM

Rick

23rd March 2014, 09:29 PM

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

24th March 2014, 07:45 AM

Alexander Selkirk's adventures were the inspiration for Robinson Crusoe ....

Salaams Rick, Not entirely ~

See Wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Knox_%28sailor%29 Quote''During the voyage Knox wrote the manuscript of An Historical Relation of the Island Ceylon, an account of his experiences on Ceylon, which was published in 1681. The book was accompanied by engravings showing the inhabitants, their customs and agricultural techniques. It attracted widespread interest at the time and made Knox internationally famous, influencing Daniel Defoe's Robinson Crusoe as well as sparking a friendship with Robert Hooke of the Royal Society. It is one of the earliest and most detailed European accounts of life on Ceylon and is today seen as an invaluable record of the island in the 17th century.'' Unquote.

I think the word influencing carries enough inspiration to be supportive in the construction of the tale..

Also note from Wikepedia : Quote"Robinson Crusoe /ˌrɒbɪnsən ˈkruːsoʊ/ is a novel by Daniel Defoe, first published on 25 April 1719. This first edition credited the work's fictional protagonist Robinson Crusoe as its author, leading many readers to believe he was a real person and the book a travelogue of true incidents. It was published under the considerably longer original title The Life and Strange Surprizing Adventures of Robinson Crusoe, Of York, Mariner: Who lived Eight and Twenty Years, all alone in an un-inhabited Island on the Coast of America, near the Mouth of the Great River of Oroonoque; Having been cast on Shore by Shipwreck, wherein all the Men perished but himself. With An Account how he was at last as strangely deliver'd by Pyrates.

*Epistolary, confessional, and **didactic in form, the book is a fictional autobiography of the title character (whose birth name is Robinson Kreutznaer)—a castaway who spends years on a remote tropical island near Trinidad, encountering cannibals, captives, and mutineers before being rescued.

The story is widely perceived to have been influenced by the life of Alexander Selkirk, a Scottish castaway who lived for four years on the Pacific island called "Más a Tierra" (in 1966 its name was changed to Robinson Crusoe Island), Chile. However, other possible sources have been put forward for the text. It is possible, for example, that Defoe was inspired by the Latin or English translations of Ibn Tufail's Hayy ibn Yaqdhan, an earlier novel also set on a desert island.

Another source for Defoe's novel may have been Robert Knox's account of his abduction by the King of Ceylon in 1659 in "An Historical Account of the Island Ceylon," Glasgow: James MacLehose and Sons (Publishers to the University), 1911.

In his 2003 book In Search of Robinson Crusoe, Tim Severin contends that the account of Henry Pitman in a short book chronicling his escape from a Caribbean penal colony and subsequent shipwrecking and desert island misadventures, is the inspiration for the story.

Arthur Wellesley Secord in his Studies in the narrative method of Defoe (1963: 21-111) painstakingly analyses the composition of Robinson Crusoe and gives a list of possible sources of the story, rejecting the common theory that the story of Selkirk is Defoe's only source.

Despite its simple narrative style, Robinson Crusoe was well received in the literary world and is often credited as marking the beginning of realistic fiction as a literary genre. Before the end of 1719 the book had already run through four editions, and it has gone on to become one of the most widely published books in history, spawning numerous sequels and adaptations for stage, film, and television".Unquote.

Notes;
*(An epistolary novel is a novel written as a series of documents)
**(A didactic novel that set out to expose social injustice)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

24th March 2014, 08:28 AM

saalams ibrahiim,interestingly the veddhas still exist in ceylon as an ethnic minority of small number i think 500 or so still living a traditional life,just got through reading knox,puts things more in perspective for me, with clear references to kastane and piha kaetta, :)

Salaams Napoleon ~ Its not a bad way of breaking into the subject whilst having a weather eye on the poetic licence of the author..Knox is good background stuff though he appears a little late in proceedings, however, it makes good reading. Well done for ploughing through it ! :)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

fernando

24th March 2014, 08:30 PM

... interestingly the veddhas still exist in ceylon as an ethnic minority of small number i think 500 or so still living a traditional life, just got through reading knox ...
Hi Napoleon :)
It looks like they have never been so many :o
I see that Robert Knox arrived in Ceylon in 1659, one year after Portuguese João Ribeiro left the island (captured by the Dutch in 1658), where he has been since 1640. Ribeiro wrote his work (Historic Fatality of Ceylon) in 1680 and this was only published 1685. Although Knox wrote his work in 1681, Ribeiro’s experiences are earlier, especially in what touches local war episodes. However both descriptions of the Vedas don’t differ so much in the essential.
On the other hand, i am surprised in that Knox places the Vedas in the 'Land of Bintan' (Indonesia?), whereas Ribeiro places them in the Northern Ceylonese lands of Vanni, between Jaffna and Trincomalee, in the middle of two separating rivers, along 10 leagues of coast and 8 leagues inland, an area of very dense bushes; and they were so few that within these 10 leagues they wandered in those bushes and almost wouldn’t communicate ones with the others… despite a legend told by locals that would implicate in these people being in large number.
Ribeiro also stresses that they wouldn’t stay in permanent villages. Each family stayed in a place no more than six months, enough to plant seed and harvest the result; then they moved somewhere else.

Jim McDougall

24th March 2014, 10:09 PM

Salaams Rick, Not entirely ~

See Wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Knox_%28sailor%29 Quote''During the voyage Knox wrote the manuscript of An Historical Relation of the Island Ceylon, an account of his experiences on Ceylon, which was published in 1681. The book was accompanied by engravings showing the inhabitants, their customs and agricultural techniques. It attracted widespread interest at the time and made Knox internationally famous, influencing Daniel Defoe's Robinson Crusoe as well as sparking a friendship with Robert Hooke of the Royal Society. It is one of the earliest and most detailed European accounts of life on Ceylon and is today seen as an invaluable record of the island in the 17th century.'' Unquote.

I think the word influencing carries enough inspiration to be supportive in the construction of the tale..

Also note from Wikepedia : Quote"Robinson Crusoe /ˌrɒbɪnsən ˈkruːsoʊ/ is a novel by Daniel Defoe, first published on 25 April 1719. This first edition credited the work's fictional protagonist Robinson Crusoe as its author, leading many readers to believe he was a real person and the book a travelogue of true incidents. It was published under the considerably longer original title The Life and Strange Surprizing Adventures of Robinson Crusoe, Of York, Mariner: Who lived Eight and Twenty Years, all alone in an un-inhabited Island on the Coast of America, near the Mouth of the Great River of Oroonoque; Having been cast on Shore by Shipwreck, wherein all the Men perished but himself. With An Account how he was at last as strangely deliver'd by Pyrates.

*Epistolary, confessional, and **didactic in form, the book is a fictional autobiography of the title character (whose birth name is Robinson Kreutznaer)—a castaway who spends years on a remote tropical island near Trinidad, encountering cannibals, captives, and mutineers before being rescued.

The story is widely perceived to have been influenced by the life of Alexander Selkirk, a Scottish castaway who lived for four years on the Pacific island called "Más a Tierra" (in 1966 its name was changed to Robinson Crusoe Island), Chile. However, other possible sources have been put forward for the text. It is possible, for example, that Defoe was inspired by the Latin or English translations of Ibn Tufail's Hayy ibn Yaqdhan, an earlier novel also set on a desert island.

Another source for Defoe's novel may have been Robert Knox's account of his abduction by the King of Ceylon in 1659 in "An Historical Account of the Island Ceylon," Glasgow: James MacLehose and Sons (Publishers to the University), 1911.

In his 2003 book In Search of Robinson Crusoe, Tim Severin contends that the account of Henry Pitman in a short book chronicling his escape from a Caribbean penal colony and subsequent shipwrecking and desert island misadventures, is the inspiration for the story.

Arthur Wellesley Secord in his Studies in the narrative method of Defoe (1963: 21-111) painstakingly analyses the composition of Robinson Crusoe and gives a list of possible sources of the story, rejecting the common theory that the story of Selkirk is Defoe's only source.

Despite its simple narrative style, Robinson Crusoe was well received in the literary world and is often credited as marking the beginning of realistic fiction as a literary genre. Before the end of 1719 the book had already run through four editions, and it has gone on to become one of the most widely published books in history, spawning numerous sequels and adaptations for stage, film, and television".Unquote.

Notes;
*(An epistolary novel is a novel written as a series of documents)
**(A didactic novel that set out to expose social injustice)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

Beautifully posted Ibrahiim!!! and thank you for all this detail. Quite honestly I had not even heard of Knox before you started posting this material, and for that matter had no idea of these other influences on the 'Robinson Crusoe' classic!
This is the amazing thing about taking the time to research things, and though often digressing from the topic or item being studied, how many other things can be learned along the way.
Thank you for always taking that extra time to thoroughly present these kinds of details!

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall

24th March 2014, 10:12 PM

Hi Napoleon :)
It looks like they have never been so many :o
I see that Robert Knox arrived in Ceylon in 1659, one year after Portuguese João Ribeiro left the island (captured by the Dutch in 1658), where he has been since 1640. Ribeiro wrote his work (Historic Fatality of Ceylon) in 1680 and this was only published 1685. Although Knox wrote his work in 1681, Ribeiro’s experiences are earlier, especially in what touches local war episodes. However both descriptions of the Vedas don’t differ so much in the essential.
On the other hand, i am surprised in that Knox places the Vedas in the 'Land of Bintan' (Indonesia?), whereas Ribeiro places them in the Northern Ceylonese lands of Vanni, between Jaffna and Trincomalee, in the middle of two separating rivers, along 10 leagues of coast and 8 leagues inland, an area of very dense bushes; and they were so few that within these 10 leagues they wandered in those bushes and almost wouldn’t communicate ones with the others… despite a legend told by locals that would implicate in these people being in large number.
Ribeiro also stresses that they wouldn’t stay in permanent villages. Each family stayed in a place no more than six months, enough to plant seed and harvest the result; then they moved somewhere else.

Thank you for this additional perspective from Portuguese resources, which gives us valuable insight from much fuller spectrum. Nicely added Nando!!

All the best,
Jim

napoleon

25th March 2014, 05:16 PM

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

25th March 2014, 06:28 PM

thank you ibrahiim ,fernando and jim,particularly for the portugese reference, a bit more reading if i can access a copy,i think the thread is still going well,but also feel that,any pics of examples,absolutely any,however rusty to anything gold mounted, gem encrusted, with or without inscriptions(are there any?) :) ?.regards napoleon

Salaams Napoleon...Just picking up on "anything gold mounted, gem encrusted" Do you refer to the Kastane? If so, I think you mean to post this on The Sinhalese Kastane: Its Development, Decoration and Symbolism...I am not certain what other weapons (not counting the Piha Kheata) would fall into that category..For some stunning pictures of Kastane Pinterest does some good pictures and also some of our own museum visiting members have taken great pictures in various venues like The Wallace Collection ~ just tap into Forum Library.

Good luck on your continued research. Thanks :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

VANDOO

28th March 2014, 09:13 PM

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

29th March 2014, 02:53 PM

HERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF TWO DAGGERS SAID TO BE FROM SOUTHERN INDIA. I HAVE NO FURTHER INFORMATION ON THEM BUT THE POMMELS USEING MYTHICAL OR REAL REVERED CREATURES WERE IN USE THERE AS WELL AS CEYLON.

Salaams VANDOO ~ Amongst the many names I have heard them described as "Yaali". These monster forms are very interesting and represent an Iconic place in the traditional history of the region. Monster heads, in particular, the Makara are also seen as gargoyle water spouts and this general form is applied to jewellery, door knockers, temple door and window surrounds, weapon hilts, powder flasks etc. Very much part of the architectural landscape and design features adorning many artefacts..This style of decoration flows all over the Buddhist/Hindu influenced Indian sub continental region.

What is quite peculiar is that these Iconic zoomorphic hilts rebounded onto European swords..."The Dogheads"...apparently from the Sri Lankan Kastane.

e.g. For an account of English Cutlass style Dogheads see http://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/english-c-1720-dog-head-naval-cutlass

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

fernando

3rd April 2014, 07:46 PM

... The possibility of the name Kasthana being influenced by the Portuguese is real as it is a word that does not seem to have a direct meaning in Sinhala or have too many similar words to accompany it. Curiously the only other similar term that (comes to my mind) that may also shed a little light on this is the “Patisthana” spears; being of the same class as the Partisans. The similarity between the terms “Kasthana” or “Patisthana” seem obvious. The only difference being the presence of a much more ancient form of spear known in literature as the “patissa” which is most probably ancestor to the “Patisthana”. It is known that the Sinhala elite of the era was quite conversant with Portuguese and the use of the language had become wide spread and stylish as a secondary language in the Country.

... even today there is a rather large number of words of Portuguese origin amalgamated within the Sinhala language.
Quite a few indeed:
Do you recognize some, Prasanna ?

abano, aia, alfinete, almoço, ama, armário, atalaia banco, baioneta, balde, bandeja, bastão, batata, bêbado, biscoito, bola, borra, botão, braçal, burro, caldeirão, calças, câmara, camisa, candelabro, capitão, carreta, casamento, chão, chinela, citação, contrato, copo, cozinha, cunha, curral, dado, dedal, diamante, doce, dona, escola, espírito, forro, garfo, gasto, gelosia, globo, janela, lança, lençol, lanterna, lenço, lestes, linguiça, lotaria, meia, mesa, mostra, numero, padre, pão, passaporte, pato, pedreiro, pena, pepino, palangana, picão, pintura, pipa, pistola, púcaro, renda, ripa, roda, rosa, saco, saia, sala, salada, sapato, sarampo, saúde (brinde), semana, sino, soldado, tacho, tenda, tinta, toalha, tombo' tranca. trigo, vidro, vinagre, etc.

But i don't find in all these words the path for the term Kasthana. This is a tough riddle; i have just read that another specialist in Sinhalese languages, Reverend Charles Carter, pretends that the term is Portuguese :confused: .
Has he already been mentioned here ?

http://archives.dailynews.lk/2012/06/28/fea02.asp

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

5th April 2014, 06:51 PM

Whats in a word...? Kastane ~Katana
See http://www.lk.emb-japan.go.jp/eg/contents/culture/EpisiodesNewE.html

Whilst the Edo period in Japan heralded some interesting political visits to Sri Lanka it is with a broad brush that I apply some potential to this word puzzle... and I suspect that like other similar puzzles like Kattara, Qudderah, Katta etc etc this one may rest forever surrounded in the usual mists of time ..

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana~

Quote" Etymology and loanwords. "Katana" is the term now used to describe nihontō that are 2 shaku (606 mm / 23.9 in) and longer, also known as "dai" or "daito" among Western sword enthusiasts although daito is a generic name for any long sword.

Pronounced [katana], the kun'yomi (Japanese reading) of the kanji 刀, originally meaning dao (sword) or knife/saber in Chinese, the word has been adopted as a loanword by the Portuguese language. In Portuguese the designation (spelled catana) means "large knife" or machete. As Japanese does not have separate plural and singular forms, both "katanas" and "katana" are considered acceptable forms in English".Unquote.

Whilst there are some links in the Buddhist nature Bothavista and a few similar letters in each alphabet Sri Lankan / Japanese and a similar word order... it is far from clear if there was any involvement in a word link though one website actually plainly points to the word Kastana as having evolved from the Japanese word Katana but without proof. see http://karava.org/other/mudaliyars at para 3 under Mudalyars...I therefor have the Japanese obtained Portuguese word as purely co-incidental.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

12th April 2014, 05:03 PM

See spear weilding soldier below who appears to be Javanese ...Quote."One of seven paintings by William Daniell, originally painted for Thomas Stamford Raffles, History of Java. Similar images are in the 1817 edition of the book". Unquote. see www.britishmuseum.org

They were also often used as mercenaries in Sri Lanka..Interestingly working for example for the Dutch then agreeing to work for the English when they assumed control... as did Swiss and French mercenaries. :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Marcus

6th June 2016, 01:08 PM

Having just purchased a kastane from Oriental Arms
(http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=6813), I spent much of yesterday reading this long thread on Sinalese weapons,
and the one on the kastane in particular.
(http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18111&highlight=kastane)
With a certain amount of contemplation and consideration of the various opinions expressed, I think that the four questions Jim introduced at the start of the second thread were pretty well covered, except perhaps the third point:

“The kastane appears to have developed from earlier combat weapons into the more regalia oriented court sword form in high embellishment. Hoping to establish some type of chronological line of development.”

At the risk of tipping off another avalanche, I wonder what is known about the weapons of the second major ethnic group on Sri Lanka, the Tamils.

Also, I am guessing that the kastane is an item of such well conserved design that it is difficult to date individual pieces but I would be interested to hear opinions on the piece I have in route from Atzi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

6th June 2016, 05:17 PM

Marcus you have what appears to be a Castana of the type worn by Mudalyar or civil service officers as a badge of office.

Your question and heading are interesting since no one as yet has entered anything on these threads about Tamil and in trying to do so without getting tangled in recent history politics and war in the region we need to go far back ...

Wikepedia looks at an interesting field concerning Tamils who as you may know inhabit two areas in Southern India and Sri Lanka...but avoiding that and focussing on two aspects...The Martial Arts and the high class steel making capacity of the Tamils I think we can uncover a few little known facts...In this regard I also side step the issue already covered of Portuguese Dutch and British involvement ...at least in this reply. Thus from Wikepedia I do Quote"

Martial Traditions.
Kalaripayattu martial art form which originated during Sangam Period.

Various martial arts including Kuttu Varisai, Varma Kalai, Silambam, Adithada, Malyutham and Kalarippayattu, are practised in Tamil Nadu and Kerala.The warm-up phase includes yoga, meditation and breathing exercises. Silambam originated in ancient Tamilakam and was patronized by the Pandyans, Cholas and Cheras, who ruled over this region. Silapathiharam a Tamil literature from the 2nd century AD, refers to the sale of Silamabam instructions, weapons and equipment to foreign traders.

Since the early Sangam age, there was a warlike culture in South India. War was regarded as an honorable sacrifice and fallen heroes and kings were worshiped in the form of a Hero stone. Each warrior was trained in martial arts, horse riding and specialized in two of the weapons of that period Vel (spear) Val (sword) and Vil (bow).

Heroic martyrdom was glorified in ancient Tamil literature. The Tamil kings and warriors followed an honour code similar to that of Japanese Samurais and committed suicide to save the honor. The forms of martial suicide were known as Avipalli, Thannai, Verttal, Marakkanchi, Vatakkiruttal and Punkilithu Mudiyum Maram. Avipalli was mentioned in all the works except Veera Soliyam. It was a self-sacrifice of a warrior to the goddess of war for the victory of his commander.

Among the ancient Tamils the practice of erecting memorial stones Natukalhad appeared, and it continued for quite a long time after the Sangam age, down to about 16th century. It was customary for people who sought victory in war to worship these hero stones to bless them with victory. They often carry inscriptions displaying a variety of adornments, including bas relief panels, frieze, and figures on carved stone.

Wootz Steel Production.

Wootz steel originated in South India and Sri Lanka. There are several ancient Tamil, Greek, Chinese and Roman literary references to high carbon Indian steel since the time of Alexander's India campaign. The crucible steel production process started in the sixth century BC, at production sites of Kodumanal in Tamil Nadu, Golconda in Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Sri Lanka and exported globally; the Tamils of the Chera Dynasty producing what was termed the finest steel in the world, i.e. Seric Iron to the Romans, Egyptians, Chinese and Arabs by 500 BC. The steel was exported as cakes of steely iron that came to be known as "Wootz."

The Tamilakam method was to heat black magnetite ore in the presence of carbon in a sealed clay crucible inside a charcoal furnace. An alternative was to smelt the ore first to give wrought iron, then heated and hammered to be rid of slag. The carbon source was bamboo and leaves from plants such as Avārai. The Chinese and locals in Sri Lanka adopted the production methods of creating Wootz steel from the Chera Tamils by the 5th century BC. In Sri Lanka, this early steel-making method employed a unique wind furnace, driven by the monsoon winds, capable of producing high-carbon steel and production sites from antiquity have emerged, in places such as Anuradhapura, Tissamaharama and Samanalawewa, as well as imported artifacts of ancient iron and steel from Kodumanal. A 200 BCE Tamil trade guild in Tissamaharama, in the South East of Sri Lanka, brought with them some of the oldest iron and steel artifacts and production processes to the island from the classical period.

The Arabs introduced the South Indian/Sri Lankan wootz steel to Damascus, where an industry developed for making weapons of this steel. The 12th century Arab traveler Edrisi mentioned the "Hinduwani" or Indian steel as the best in the world. Another sign of its reputation is seen in a Persian phrase – to give an "Indian answer", meaning "a cut with an Indian sword." Wootz steel was widely exported and traded throughout ancient Europe and the Arab world, and became particularly famous in the Middle East.

Traditional Weapons

The Tamil martial arts also includes various types of weapons.

Valari (throwing stick)
Maduvu (deer horns)
Surul Vaal (curling blade)
Vaal (sword) + Ketayam (shield)
Itti or Vel (spear)
Savuku (whip)
Kattari (fist blade)...Kattar push dagger....
Veecharuval (battle Machete)
Silambam (long bamboo staff)
Kuttu Katai (spiked knuckleduster)
Katti (dagger/knife)
Vil (bow)
Tantayutam (mace)
Soolam (trident)
Theekutchi (flaming baton)
Yeratthai Mulangkol (dual stick)
Yeretthai Vaal (dual sword)" Unquote.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

7th June 2016, 07:32 PM

Having listed the Tamil weapons above I will start the ball rolling with the throwing sticks ... Wikepedia notes Quote"
Valari

Type. Throwing Stick.
Place of origin. India.

VALARI (Tamil: வளரி) or valai tadi is a throwing stick used primarily by the Tamil people of India and Sri Lanka. Valari were used in war, fighting, and hunting. It was the favorite weapon of choice in a deer hunt.

Shape
Similar to the boomerang of the aboriginal Australians, however, the Tamilian Valari doesn't return to the thrower. Valari were made in many shapes and sizes. Marudhu Brothers, brave Tamil kings were the veteran of using this. The usual form consists of two limbs set at an angle. One is thin and tappering while the other is rounded. The rounded end was used as a handle. They were usually made of wood or iron. Other valari had wooden limbs tipped with iron. Some had limbs which had lethally sharpened edges. Special daggers known as kattari, double-edged and razor sharp, were attached to some valari.

Use

The thrower holds the valari by one of its limbs and throws it. There are several ways of throwing and aiming. It is usually given a spin while throwing. While flying through the air, it maneuvers and executes several types of movements according to the throwers purpose. It may spin in the vertical axis, horizontal axis, or just fly without spinning. The spin may also vary in speed. A lethal throw is given a spin and aimed at the neck. A non-lethal throw is given a spin and aimed at the ankles or knees. This is to capture a fleeing victim. A simple hurting blow does not have any spin." Unquote.

* I note one particular technique of tying a Kattar (the Tamils called it Kattari) knife to a Valari ..!! making this a most lethal combination spinning through the air !!

**Further definitions may be found at http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Dravidian_peoples

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

10th June 2016, 09:13 PM

Maduvu,

Fighting Horns...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

10th June 2016, 09:17 PM

Sural vaal ~ we have seen these before on this thread..see #205

Prasanna Weerakkody

2nd September 2016, 05:59 AM

estcrh

7th September 2016, 10:38 AM

Hi Marcus,

Just a note on the Kasthana you had posted. Based on my experience this seem to be a recent replica manufactured by a local "Antique Dealer" for sale to tourists. you can find many similar items on sale locally. The bronze/ Brass blades which are often riveted to a simple cast hilt which often include the guards as one piece is usually indicate modern replicas, the motifs area also not typically Sinhala in the detail.

Prasanna
The blade does not appear to be "bronze / brass" to me and would a tourist piece be made with a silver hilt?

The Kastane is the national sword of Sri-Lanka. It is characterized by its short curved blade, usually of mediocre quality and highly decorative hilt and scabbard. Here we have a good typical example with 14 inches curved blade. The silver hilt is of great decorative values – A piece of art by itself. The monster styled quillons and the monster head pommel with all parts delicately chiseled and engraved with great care and fine details. Pink colored stone eyes. Total length 19 inches. Very good condition. Heavily patinated blade. No scabbard. A very decorative piece.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

7th September 2016, 02:24 PM

The weapon does look like it was made with a rather hot needle in tailoring terms... The blade is very badly fixed. Slightly difficult to tell from a photo but I agree with the assessment as tourist item.
I know I have posted these before but these mark the quality of Kastane from a Royal Workshop ...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

14th September 2016, 07:18 PM

An interesting conundrum appears in the shape of Sri Lankan Spears. The question as to whether Partisan Spears migrated to Sri Lanka as a shared form since the Sri Lankan Patisthania appears as an almost identical weapon to the European Partisan Spear...wings and all. That is not to say point blank that it is; since we are all aware of parallel developments in completely unlinked regions of the world. This is not just apparent in items such as dishes or utility items but weapons particularly in basic form. So is it related or not? For anyone not familiar with the weapon please see cleandungeon.com where it states Quote"

Partisan
Location: Europe
Common Construction: Wooden haft with steel head

The partisan has a central spear, but on either side of the spear are "flukes" that jut out. These flukes evolved over time into what the partisan is commonly described as; a spear with an axe head on either side. This design provides many advantages. First, it limits how far the spear can penetrate so it won't get trapped inside an object. In hunting, spears have crossbars called "lugs" for the very same reason. Second, you can use the weapon in two ways now, by thrusting it like a spear, or bringing it down on someone like an axe. Once you knock someone off their horse, it's hard to stab through their armor with your spear because the steep angle of attack deflects the spearhead. The partisan allows you to perform a chopping motion that is much more effective". Unquote.

On the possibility of some sort of design crossover I refer to the description at Henry Parkers famous presentation on weapons of that region in which he writes Quote "Although the winged spear-head of recent times seems to be copied from from weapons carried by the early Europe and invaders it is certainly of much more ancient date. On the side of the crown of a wooden statue which is supposed to be that of Duttha-Gamini,at the Nikawaewa Cave wihara, there are carved relief which evidently represent spears winged heads like those now in use, as well as others resembling the fourth and fifth types just described. I have already mentioned that these sculptures possibly date from the eleventh century A.D.''Unquote.

Are we looking at an accidental non related spear design with a similar name but purely unrelated or is it possible that either the Portuguese or Dutch form has some bearing on the Sri Lankan version.

Comments are welcome... :)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

23rd September 2016, 04:21 PM

Spears from the Kandyan Period:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

1st October 2016, 02:25 PM

THE Veecharuval ... This weapon may have spread from Southern India moreover there it is banned in many areas since it has been used in frequent attacks and murders... It is simply a machete often with a curved hook like tip section...The use of agricultural tools as war or fighting weapons is not unusual and this is an example of such an item. For interest I show the South Indian version in the blacksmiths shop though there is, perhaps, little difference... :shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

1st October 2016, 02:44 PM

Silamban..(long bamboo staff) This is stick fighting Southern Indian Style and it is an excellent technique of all round fighting with the simple staff weapon... press into computer search and see a host of videos showing the technique. :shrug: or see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YlpcHjOFXU

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

1st October 2016, 03:28 PM

Kuttu Katai (spiked knuckleduster) See http://www.sangam.org/taraki/articles/2006/02-10_Thamizhar_Martial_Arts.php?uid=1510 This is a fascinating article on the general martial forms focusing on Tamil influence ... The spiked knuckle duster technique is a highly specialized vital point or nerve point strike technique with an animal claw type weapon. :shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

4th October 2016, 06:01 PM

Spears and \Lances Daggers /Swords Battle Axes, Bow. Etc. Fairly extensive coverage exists at https://sirimunasiha.wordpress.com/about/military-history-of-sri-lanka/archers-of-ancient-sinhala-army-dunumadullan/ :shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

1st August 2017, 08:15 AM

The question arises as to whether the quilons on a Kastane are real fighting weapon additions or in keeping with a Court Sword of Badge of Office and not for a Battle Sword.
This weapon has been linked by several renowned sword experts in history but have they appreciated the situation or situated the appreciation? :shrug:

To my eye the Quilons look crushed and unable to trap an opponents blade. They do not look substantial enough and in addition the blades look too flimsy to even need Quilons. Surely this cannot be a fighting weapon.
It is in fact a court sword. In its secondary role a Badge of Office for the secretariat Officers of Mudalier rank in the civil service. In this regard there appear to be two swords... The earlier Kastane may well have been the Golock bladed similar to Storta weapon seen in the famous stone carving but soon after another Kastane appeared ...The Badge of Office almost Bling format court sword.

Because it has apparent turned down Quilons it seems to be embroiled with Islamic weapons such as the Nimcha. In my view this is a muddle perhaps undone since the Quilons of Kastane go back to 14th Century and beyond.

The Vajra was introduced by The Great Buddha into Tibet. Following that it appears on a cutting tool reserved for religious pageants. The 14th Century Tibetto-Chinese sword at Boston Museum for Fine Arts shows a Vajra on a parade sword illustrating the Quilon effect; Below.

Conclusion The Kastane in its Court Sword garb... was never a battle Sword but a badge of Rank/Office only. It took its entire hilt form from the Buddhist traditions including the zoomorphic hilt with Buddhist Deities, Peacock tail and Vajra Quilons;..none of which were intended for a Battle Sword. The Battle Version went before perhaps...but this implement was peaceful but only Traditional, Religious and Iconic.

The link to European weapons in this regard is questionable and cannot be attached to the Quilons because by definition the Kastane doesn't have any since it is not a fighting weapon; so why should it?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kai

1st August 2017, 12:23 PM

Hello Ibrahiim,

To my eye the Quilons look crushed and unable to trap an opponents blade. They do not look substantial enough and in addition the blades look too flimsy to even need Quilons. Surely this cannot be a fighting weapon.
It is in fact a court sword. In its secondary role a Badge of Office for the secretariat Officers of Mudalier rank in the civil service. In this regard there appear to be two swords... The earlier Kastane may well have been the Golock bladed similar to Storta weapon seen in the famous stone carving but soon after another Kastane appeared ...The Badge of Office almost Bling format court sword.
<...>
The Kastane in its Court Sword garb... was never a battle Sword but a badge of Rank/Office only.
It's tough to reason with circular logic: If you define kastane as a court sword only, it is not surprising if all kastane sensu Ibrahiim were court swords... ;)

Nobody is arguing that the late court kastane was not meant for fighting. This doesn't imply that earlier members of the same sword lineage can't ever have been fighting swords though.

It took its entire hilt form from the Buddhist traditions including the zoomorphic hilt with Buddhist Deities, Peacock tail and Vajra Quilons;..none of which were intended for a Battle Sword.
The Tibetan sword you show clearly has the vajra included into the hilt design. However, I don't think a compelling case can be made that it's the same for any kastane - it's certainly an interesting thought but doesn't fly without a lot more supporting evidence!

A vajra is a 3-dimensional object symbolizing a four-sided diamond; those 4 "limbs" join into a solid tip - sort of like a war hammer. A kastane only shows 2 planes and the 2 mythical creatures don't really connect to the blade.

Moreover, these creatures are obviously taken from Hindu iconography and already have been utilized as cross guards in Hindu weapons. Much of the early Buddhist iconography is based on Hindu roots. Sri Lankan weapons were obviously based on Hindu weapons (certainly allowing for some additional cross-cultural influences, too).

Last not least, the vajra is the icon of the Vajrayana lineage of Buddhism which never had much of any presence on Sri Lanka.

The link to European weapons in this regard is questionable and cannot be attached to the Quilons because by definition the Kastane doesn't have any since it is not a fighting weapon; so why should it?
Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater unless we have a really compelling reason to do so, shall we? Convincing the mother first, wouldn't hurt either... ;)

Regards,
Kai

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

1st August 2017, 01:28 PM

Hello Ibrahiim,

It's tough to reason with circular logic: If you define kastane as a court sword only, it is not surprising if all kastane sensu Ibrahiim were court swords... ;)

Nobody is arguing that the late court kastane was not meant for fighting. This doesn't imply that earlier members of the same sword lineage can't ever have been fighting swords though.

The Tibetan sword you show clearly has the vajra included into the hilt design. However, I don't think a compelling case can be made that it's the same for any kastane - it's certainly an interesting thought but doesn't fly without a lot more supporting evidence!

A vajra is a 3-dimensional object symbolizing a four-sided diamond; those 4 "limbs" join into a solid tip - sort of like a war hammer. A kastane only shows 2 planes and the 2 mythical creatures don't really connect to the blade.

Moreover, these creatures are obviously taken from Hindu iconography and already have been utilized as cross guards in Hindu weapons. Much of the early Buddhist iconography is based on Hindu roots. Sri Lankan weapons were obviously based on Hindu weapons (certainly allowing for some additional cross-cultural influences, too).

Last not least, the vajra is the icon of the Vajrayana lineage of Buddhism which never had much of any presence on Sri Lanka.

Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater unless we have a really compelling reason to do so, shall we? Convincing the mother first, wouldn't hurt either... ;)

Regards,
Kai

Salaams Kai ~Please see any site you like about Buddhism in Sri Lanka...It will say something like this...Sri Lanka's population practices a variety of religions. As of the 2011 census 70.19% of Sri Lankans were Theravada Buddhists, 12.6% were Hindus, 9.7% were Muslims (mainly Sunni) and 7.4% Christians (6.1% Roman Catholic and 1.3% other Christian). It will further say how melded into one format are Hindu respected traditions and Buddhist ones.. I would say pretty inseparable. The form is very old 250 BC ...and has had a chequered and changing application of Buddhism and style but the central theme and influence has largely been from its core and from Tibet.

Makara. In the Tibetan Buddhist format it evolved from the Indian form of makara. However, it is different in some ways such as, "display of lions fore paws, a horse's mane, the gills and tendrils of a fish, and the horns of a deer or dragon. From its once simple fishtail, sometimes feathered, now emerges as a complex spiraling floral pattern known as makara-tail design (Sanskritmakaraketu)". At the same time and not to dwell on the hilt variation the makara hilt is known to be similar to the lion style and this difference is placed to one side so the other aspects can be viewed.

In Tibetan iconography, THE VAJRA is depicted as a weapon of strength and tenacity. The Vajrayan weapons which have makara symbolism are; axe, iron hook, curved knife, vajra, and ritual dragon, in all of which the theme is "emergence of the blade from the open mouth of the makara".

The Vajra on the Kastane is usually two because the blade is so flimsy / you cant really fit four around it..but I think the architects of the sword skirted around that by placing two other quilon Iconic animal forms one on the guard and another on the Knuckle guard and the last one on the lower guard making 5. It so happens that 5 or 9 are the accepted ways to illustrate Vajra.

No one to date has fielded such exact proof of technical transfer as this... I show a 14th Century Sword of Tibetto-Chinese form with Vajra in exactly the right position at the throat. Would you like to see more Tibettan weapons with Vajra? The Great Buddha himself walked into Tibet with a Vajra which is why it is so revered across regions.

I didn't say that all phases of the Kastane were non battle weapons ... On the contrary the early stone frieze shows a possible original type of battle Kastane...with a similar blade to the example taken back by Hasekura to Japan and currently in their Museum. I am however linking the Vajra to the Kastane directly from the Tibettan source making it very clear that the Quilons are not European but home grown....and they aren't Quilons!! but are religious decorations known as Vajra.

I do, however, say that the bling hilt is purely court sword and Badge of Office. (There are also reports that the Kastane went into Battle not as a weapon but a badge of rank.) Later but not much later it became a secretaries sword ...but only a badge of Office ...See Mudaliers and below with KASTANE.

Here it is ...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

3rd August 2017, 09:16 AM

As an interlude in proceedings I have unearthed a documented list of items said to have been removed by the Governing powers of the day ruling Sri Lanka. The period covered is extensive thus I searched there in case an early Kastane could be discovered.

On page 15 of this document http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0003/000387/038748eb.pdf
I found IM 10/19/10 held at The Britich Museum the hilt portion (incomplete) of a sword Kastane described as ; Pommel of Ivory with Simha head, Grip curved with typical scrollwork, Vaka Deka Motif and floral bands.

15 Century Said to have been presented by King Parakrama Bahu V1. 1415 TO 1467 to a chief of the Weerasinghe family . Very much weathered. Parts missing. Sold for 3 Pounds in March 1910.

There are other swords and weapons but this one is particularly important as it predates the Portuguese. (I dont know if these are still abroad or have been returned to Sri Lanka.)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

4th August 2017, 11:51 AM

Please also note the figure on the scabbard which is also the revered figure seen in Sri Lankan door and window carved relief as the devourer of all evil; The Kirtimukha.

Also seen on door and window carvings.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

6th August 2017, 09:36 AM

For a vast array of Buddhist Vajra please see~ http://drilbudorje.tripod.com/_Dorje.htm where the clear defined thunderclap device can be understood as the same design on the Tibettan Sword pictured above and its technical transfer across the regions to the Sri Lankan Kastane pictured below. :shrug:

The quilons appear vestigial but they are not since they are not Quilons per se but form a part of the motif held in high esteem by Buddhist and Hindu alike and represent diamonds or thunderbolts and can be illustrated in an open aspect or closed as on the Kastane. [/B] The quilon aspect is purely Iconic as part of the Buddhist / Hindu display and revered by all...and are generally known as Vajra.

It is my view and as part of this hypothesis that the closed form shuts out the possibility of this as a sword form when its true place is only ceremonial; Rank and Badge of Office / Court Sword only and that this usage is generally agreed upon. In addition since the Kastane was not a fighting weapon as outlined in several reports by notable Sri Lankan experts.

Placed for interest is another weapon form : The Mace from Tibet another Icon for religious ceremony and not a battle weapon but with Vajra at each end. This adds weight to the fact that such iconic weaponry parts transferred across regional boundaries following the religious tide in that part of the world.

I therefor place this conclusion;[B]Thus by the simple method of comparison and detail presented herein; it can be seen that the Kastane is very much a home grown design from Buddhist and Hindu sources and not a European import. By the same proof there is no relationship except by accident of design between the Kastane and the Nimcha.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

See Below for comparison of Vajra and Kastane Architecture / Quilons.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

6th August 2017, 04:08 PM

Rick

6th August 2017, 04:28 PM

fernando

6th August 2017, 05:15 PM

I bet you didn't know this !!!!

"We learn a good deal about Jewish craftsmen from the Geniza, the fact that some of them were employed in the imperial workshops of the Fatimids; or that around 1140 three Jewish silversmiths - including two from North Africa - emigrated to Ceylon to pursue their livelihoods; or that a Tunisian Jew ran a factory in India, in which Jews bearing Arabic names, possibly from Yemen, made brass vessels which are described to us I detail primarily for the sake of beauty..."
So early as around 1140 ? Wouldn't this be a Hijri date ... corresponding to Gregorian 1748 ?
In a line with those Sefardit Jews that were expelled from Spain and have reportedly gonne to North Africa, chosing a later option to make it to Ceylon and India ... as it is also reported ...

.

fernando

6th August 2017, 05:26 PM

As an aside to this thread; I was unaware that there was a sect of Christian Jews. But then I don't get out much. :o
The picture is from The Last Empire, an Aperture publication (out of print).
Full of period photographs.
Excelent picture Rick, but ... this is breaking news !!!
Christian Jews ? Wouldn't this be the author's own way to allude to those known as Converted Jews (Cristãos novos) ?
One may only be either a Christian or a Jew ... i guess :shrug:
Could you in any case improve the picture bottom left, to have a better text reading ?

BTW, do i read "Bene Israel", a Jewish group that leaved mainly in Bombaim, Calcutá, Delhi e Ahmedabad, whose native language sas the Marathi ...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

6th August 2017, 05:44 PM

AND~ Regarding the Atlass Mountains ..."The Jews appear as a group, specializing in trading and crafts, which is ritually and socially separated from the Moslems, who specialize in agriculture... The Jews are non-combatants, not being allowed to carry arms. Yet in their role as smiths, they are responsible for making and repairing arms."

Thus we come to the realization that the ancient North African guns, knives and swords of exquisite workmanship, weapons whose hand-wrought and tooled metals were engraved with elaborate patterns or inlaid with mother-of-pearl, the very weapons that now command high prices on the antiques market, are not of Arabic provenance at all but were produced by Judaic smiths! And that is not all!

"[Jewish] blacksmiths fan charcoal fires and create useful tools; hammers, axes, hatchets, scythes, plows, and all the other tools required by the people of the region. They also repair weapons. These artisan’s shops are in the entrances of their homes. The Berber who needs any tool will bring the metal and the charcoal to the Jew’s house."

See also http://www.hebrewhistory.info/factpapers/fp017-1_gold.htm

Rick

6th August 2017, 05:49 PM

fernando

6th August 2017, 06:25 PM

Beni-Israel Teachers, Bombay, 1856, from ' The Indian Amateur's Photographic Album.'
The Beni-Israel are Christian Jews who first settled in India during the early years of the Christian era.

Verbatim from the text.
It's a windy day here and keeping the pages from flipping could be problematic.
This is a great book and I highly recommend it.
Also (Northwest) windy over here, as usually in August, but my pages are virtual :cool:.

Pity i don't have such book, but that photographer must have had his own source.
From the Chazt Hanoar website, an international Sionist movement:

"The Bene Israel resided mainly in Mombay, Calcuta, Dwhli and Ahmedabad; their native language was the Marathi. They aledged to be descendants from the Jews that escaped the pursuit from Galiley. They resemble non-Jew Marathas in appearance and customs, which indicates mixed marriages between Jews and Indians. These also maintained Judaism basic customs like circumcision, the kashrut and respected Shabat. Bene Israel aledge being desendent from the Cohan, which was corroborated by a genetic test in 2002, which indicates that they have the heriditary of the Cohnaim. Since 1964 this comunity is fully recognized as Jewish and may perform Aiá ".

... No Christian merge cited :o .

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

6th August 2017, 06:40 PM

What is peculiar about this Kastane is the blade size and configuration almost machete like...

ariel

6th August 2017, 06:51 PM

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

6th August 2017, 07:00 PM

First of all, I am not aware of anyone from a geographical place called "Geniza" ( Ibrahiim's first post).
Geniza is a Hebrew word for a ritual place dedicated to the " burial" of sacred texts and any objects containing G-d's name. By law, they cannot be destroyed, so they are deposited in a specially-assigned place.
They are a treasure trove for the historians: written documents dating to ancient times, fragments of Torah scrolls etc.
The most famous one was Cairo Geniza.

The story of Christian Jews is strange. As mentioned, converted Jews cease their affiliation with Judaism, unless forced to do so and do not re-affirm their old adherence when the fear of death is removed. Jews in Holland/England are the classic example. Bnei Israel mostly emigrated to Israel in the 1950-60s, and had always been viewed as impeccably Jewish by the Israeli religious authorities.

And it is not Ala: it is Alia, ascent. Returning from another country to Israel is viewed as ascent, elevation. Those who emigrate from Israel are called Yordim, descending, coming down. Israel in general, and Jerusalem in particular are viewed by Judaism as the highest spiritual place in the world.

The contribution of Jews to North African trades and crafts both before and after 1492 ( when Jews were evicted from Spain) is well established. But there were significant Jewish communities all over N. Africa dating back to Greek and Roman occupation of Judea. As a matter of fact, one of the recurring motives of the current Berber Independence community ( they call themselves Amazig) is their purportedly Jewish origin and forcible islamization. They claim that their Queen Kahina ( from Cohen?) who resisted invading Arab armies for 3 years was Jewish.

I ONLY STUCK IN THE QUOTATION MARKS ... SEE https://books.google.com.om/books?id=X2D4bAiZIwkC&pg=PA209&lpg=PA209&dq=%22We+learn+a+good+deal+about+Jewish+craftsmen+ from+the+Geniza,&source=bl&ots=tPM2r6SgQ7&sig=tSWXmeyq7zx9aDQF4KU4mgAssxo&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22We%20learn%20a%20good%20deal%20about%20Jewish %20craftsmen%20from%20the%20Geniza%2C&f=false However I think this term also refers to a manuscript hoard see Cairo Geniza - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Geniza
The Cairo Genizah, alternatively spelled Geniza, is a collection of some 300,000 Jewish manuscript fragments that were found in the genizah or storeroom of the ... etc etc ... It is referring to the manuscripts...and what they have learned from them... not a geographical location.

fernando

6th August 2017, 07:27 PM

... The story of Christian Jews is strange. As mentioned, converted Jews cease their affiliation with Judaism, unless forced to do so and do not re-affirm their old adherence when the fear of death is removed. Jews in Holland/England are the classic example...
Yet since the beginning of such compulsion, several Converted Jews remained secretely faithful to their religion and had to resource determined 'convincing' practices to hide such creed from their pursuers. We still have remnants of such culture over here; one such community has recently been brought to the open, in a village called Belmonte.
... Unless we have a different view of such status.

...And it is not Ala: it is Alia, ascent...
I meant to write Aliá; sorry my mistyping.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

8th August 2017, 11:26 AM

As a reminder to Forum the reason why I brought the detail to thread about the expulsion of Jews from Toledo and the Iberian peninsula was to point to their redistribution around the Mediterranean regions as one of the key source of transfer of design and possibly the influence on Nimcha style since as artisans and particularly sword makers ....and where as migrants to Ceylon they could have had some bearing on sword making in that sphere...but that it was really only a sketch in the margin for interest rather than a topic to change the threads direction. :shrug:

The bigger blade seen at #321 is probably from the VOC often seen on late Kastane but as such it changes nothing in the general theory being discussed viz;

Thus by the simple method of comparison and detail presented herein; it can be seen that the Kastane is very much a home grown design from Buddhist and Hindu sources and not a European import. By the same proof there is no relationship except by accident of design between the Kastane and the Nimcha.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

8th August 2017, 03:36 PM

The Kastane . From the Higgins Collection. Probably a European blade on an older hilt ...perhaps early Dutch Period. The addition of European blades whilst fairly common should not serve to confuse the issue. Whatever blades were introduced by the Portuguese, Dutch or English should not complicate the issue.and since none were battle weapons it changes nothing but of course is very interesting. At this point the sword was purely a badge of office and court sword....and it is offered because of its powerful Buddhist and Hindu links that it has always been so; A purebred Sri Lankan item.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

24th August 2017, 12:43 PM

Reference;
A. https://www.colonialvoyage.com/portuguese-ceylon-portuguese-sri-lanka-before-war-dutch/#

An interesting little sketch... anyone recognize the tribal infantry on the right with shield and weapon... Its a sketch but that looks like a Storta...but also similar to the Pinhao sword in the stone relief also shown again for comparison. Could they be the same weapon type? :shrug:

The sketch illustrates the landing by Sebald de Weert on 28 Nov 1602

Arrival of Sebald de Weert in Matecalo/Batticaloa

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

28th August 2017, 02:19 PM

Here is another related style of decoration and architecture on an ancient Indian spiked Vajra Mushti The quilons shown are dragon form often seen in Northern Indian form (Afghan Pulour) and other swords including the Kastane.

The Portuguese chronicler Fernão Nunes records the practice of vajra-musti in the southern Vijayanagara Empire. Vajra musti is the martial arts form without the long spikes.

For further detail see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajra-mushti

:shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

28th August 2017, 08:22 PM

:shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

28th August 2017, 09:04 PM

Here I remind viewers to check out http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18111&page=2&pp=30 which is like a sister thread split to consider different viewpoints of the Sri Lankan weapon situation but equally relevant in the long and clouded history particularly regarding the Kastane.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

9th September 2017, 07:33 AM

THE SPEAR.. appears in Sri Lanka reputed to be Dutch in origin... It is worth noting that although the Portuguese were there from 1505 that The Dutch although they did not take over until much later were there as well. See the sketch below which illustrates the landing by Sebald de Weert on 28 Nov 1602 over on the East coast near Batticaloa. The sketch is very accurate down to the correct shoes hats clothes and other items. At the front of the delegation on the right is a leader of that group with a Dutch Partisan... called in the Singalese name of Patisthania .. Dr Watson there must be a clue there somewhere!

Please also note the peculiar blade on the sword held by the right hand man at front...

For interest the Dutch situation in Sri Lanka kicked off in 1602...spurred on by the VOC formation...

From http://www.wolvendaal.org/history/voc-dutch-east-india-company/17/the-establishment-of-dutch-power-in-ceylon

Quote"history/The Dutch Period in Ceylon 1602–1796

The Establishment of Dutch Power in Ceylon.

At the dawn of the seventeenth century, the young Dutch Republic was emerging as one of the more – if not the most – enterprising and dynamic forces among the European nations. The Dutch were distinguishing themselves particularly as seafarers venturing into unknown seas and lands. In 1602 the V.O.C. or United East India Company was established. Within a few decades it controlled vast territories in South Africa, Ceylon, the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) and established a considerable number of settlements in India, Malaysia, Japan and China.

In that same year, on the 2nd of June, the Dutch Admiral Joris van Spilbergen arrived in Ceylon with three ships from the Dutch port of Veere after a 12 month voyage. Visiting Kandy, the seat of King Vimala Dharma Suriya, Spilbergen and the King developed cordial relations. The King’s admiration for his new-found friend was so deep that he begun to learn the Dutch language saying ‘Kandy is now Flanders’. They discussed future relations, focussing on possible Dutch military assistance to expel the Portuguese from the coastal areas as well as the trade in cinnamon and pepper. As a token of his friendship, the Dutch Admiral left in the King’s service two versatile and skilled musicians: Erasmus Matsberger and Hans Rempel.

Shortly after the successful visit of Van Spilbergen, a second Dutch fleet under command of Sebalt de Weert arrived on the island. De Weert was a very skilful commander who discovered the Falkland Islands during the attempt of Dutch Admirals Cordes and Mahu to find an alternative route to the East Indies through Cape Magelheas in 1598. After an initial agreement with the King of Kandy, he returned in 1603 to Batticaloa with a fleet of six ships to take part in a joint effort to oust the Portuguese from the island. During his stay he took four passing Portuguese ships but released the Portuguese crews who had surrendered to the Dutch on the promise of quarter. The King was very angered by this action and after further heated discussions, De Weert and 50 of his compatriots, who happened to a on shore, were unexpectedly killed by the King’s men. The Dutch Council of the Indies considered this assassination as a treacherous murder and held the King accountable."Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.