ID on dagger ?

[hbhansen]

Hi again.

I have had this one for some time, but actually don't know what kind of a dagger it is, where it's from and how old it is...
The structure of the blade is quite interresting, but I can't see if it's laminated.
Anyone know the stamps ?
Is the handle bone or ivory ?

Thanks
Henrik

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi again.

I have had this one for some time, but actually don't know what kind of a dagger it is, where it's from and how old it is...
The structure of the blade is quite interresting, but I can't see if it's laminated.
Anyone know the stamps ?
Is the handle bone or ivory ?

Thanks
Henrik


Salaams Henrik,
This looks like a Scandanavian hunting knife... possibly Finland "Puuko." Maybe ivory tusk from Walrus or possibly Reindeer Antler?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[delor]

The blade shows no sign of being laminated. It has visible traces of the forging process, as the steel as been almost not grinded on the "rear" side of the blade.
The handle seems to be ivory. Would it be possible to see a photo of the rear part of the handle ? (the inside material of some tusks have a very characteristic aspect).
Regards,
Bernard

[chregu]

hello together
me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife.
The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from.
short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike!
The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference!
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin?
Gruss Chregu

[Gavin Nugent]

African gets my vote, I have seen this confirmed but I can't recall...Algeria?

Gav

[Stan S.]

Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin.



I don't mean to derail but I am somewhat disturbed by the above sentence... Perhaps something was lost in translation?
:rolleyes:

[Iain]

Stan, that's a literal translation from German for scabbard, it's happened to me as well using Google translate. ;)

[laEspadaAncha]

I don't mean to derail but I am somewhat disturbed by the above sentence... Perhaps something was lost in translation?
:rolleyes:

It recalls a certain faulty phrasebook: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYH0pBZdaes

:)

[Dom]

Algeria?Hi Gav
forget Algeria, from near or far ... no chance :shrug:
and, I dunno from where it's come from ...

à +

Dom

[ariel]

Any connection?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14807

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Gav
forget Algeria, from near or far ... no chance :shrug:
and, I dunno from where it's come from ...

à +

Dom

:) Yes but why ;)

[David]

An absolutely baseless opinion, but i would look north of Africa. :shrug:

[Martin Lubojacky]

I would say the shape of the blade and the style of the leather sheath and its loop are not "native-African". (I think if it was originated in Africa, then only as a relatively modern hunter´s accessories.)

[chregu]

hello guys
Yes, please grant me a translation program. Smile.
sorry did not notice the error.
Of course, the sheath is meant. smile
not African, my assessment would be more North Asia? The design reminds me of a Dha, how about China?
In any case I've seen too many of the same Knife, to declare it as individual pieces. they are always exactly the same design, also the knife sheaths!
Gruss Chregu

[Martin Lubojacky]

I would also guess north Asia, What about some of the nations from the north Siberia ?

[Gavin Nugent]

Not limited to but;

Similar bolsters have been seen on Khodmi
The hilt is Elephant ivory
Similar markings on the ivory have also been seen on Khodmi
Similar method of seating the blade in the hilt has been seen on Khodmi despite having no binding.

Yes similar overall profile and circle markings have been seen on SEA knives too but they are not seen with hide coverings, usually better finished blades and timber sheaths bound with rattan or silver. Also they usually have collars, not bolsters.

Artzi has a couple of these attributed to several different regions, Afghanistan, Northwest India, and Pakistan...perhaps AJ or Lofty can chime in for this regions?

The closest I have owned to one was a mid 20th century Turkish hunting knife. The blade on it was named and the hilt was antler but similar blade and method of securing in the antler albeit longer rivet spacing....Turkey and North Africa have had a lot of interaction...could have been a contract fulfilled there much like some cutlers do in Pakistan these days...

Gav

[ariel]

I would also guess north Asia, What about some of the nations from the north Siberia ?

No, not likely. First, the use of elephant ivory, and second, Siberian tribal knives are orders of magnitude simpler and have no sophisticated designs on the blade.
I am still voting for North India and thereabouts.

[Gavin Nugent]

No, not likely. First, the use of elephant ivory, and second, Siberian tribal knives are orders of magnitude simpler and have no sophisticated designs on the blade.
I am still voting for North India and thereabouts.

The red and blacks are seen on Lohar along with the same symbols but then the symbols as discussed in these pages long ago are found in almost every region of the world....

[chregu]

the decoration on the handle, I do not come on. but which is on the blade is special.
the style it is a good working knife, but the attachment is unusual with the short part in the handle.
In the country of origin is no shortage of ivory.

[hbhansen]

Thank you guys !! For all your answers !
Looks like this is a tuff nut to crack :confused: But you have all given me some good input, that i can use in my search of the origin of this knife.
Best
Henrik

[hbhansen]

hello together
me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife.
The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from.
short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike!
The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference!
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin?
Gruss Chregu

That's very interesting ! Theres no doubt in my mind, that these knifes is from the same region. Just a shame that the origin of the knife is lost :(
Nice knife, thanks for showing.

[hbhansen]

The blade shows no sign of being laminated. It has visible traces of the forging process, as the steel as been almost not grinded on the "rear" side of the blade.
The handle seems to be ivory. Would it be possible to see a photo of the rear part of the handle ? (the inside material of some tusks have a very characteristic aspect).
Regards,
Bernard

Hi Bernard
Here are some additional pictures, hope they are useful.
Best
Henrik

[hbhansen]

hello together
me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife.
The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from.
short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike!
The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference!
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin?
Gruss Chregu

Hi Chregu
Does the size match ?
Best
Henrik

[Dom]

:) Yes but why ;)Hi my Friend ;)
BECAUSE ....
my belief was acquired by the ability to review, 7 reference books,
dealing primarily Islamic edged weapons, books that are at home :p

however, the error is always possible,
that is why we must be cautious in our statements, at least in my case :D

my personal library concerning this subject
1) Arms & Armor (in English)
2) L'Art des Chevaliers en Pays d'Islam (in French)
3) Swords & Armor (in English)
4) les armes orientales (in French)
5) ABC des armes blanches (Islam) (in French)
6) les armes orientales (in French)
7) armes et armures (in French)

on top of all that, I spent 6 years in Algeria,
I ran Tunisia, as well as Morocco, and I never saw something like this dagger
the quality of the handle, of the scabbard, it's far better than what it's produced in Africa, and the decor (small circles) it's away of what is made in North Africa

HAVE I WELL ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR? Have I convinced ? :D

à +

Dom

[Emanuel]

Hello,

We've discussed one of these before, along with a ram-dao like little chopper belonging to Tim:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5321&page=2&pp=40
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=58127&postcount=42

The bolster and partial tang say Nepal to me. I would also vote for North Indian.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Gavin Nugent]

Here is a little more food for thought..... :D

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11216&highlight=circle+motif

Not yet convinced of anything...still have not heard a fat lady singing :D

Gav

[delor]

Hi Bernard
Here are some additional pictures, hope they are useful.
Best
Henrik

Thanks Henrik,
it confirms the handle is not walrus ivory. Probably elephant ivory as already stated.
The marks on ivory look Afghan or Balkan to me.
Regards,
Bernard

[hbhansen]

Hello,

We've discussed one of these before, along with a ram-dao like little chopper belonging to Tim:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5321&page=2&pp=40
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=58127&postcount=42

The bolster and partial tang say Nepal to me. I would also vote for North Indian.

Regards,
Emanuel

Definitely from the same region !!

[hbhansen]

Thank you all for your answers. I read the links to the earlier threads an see alot of similarity. I've got a lot to work with now.

[chregu]

Thanks to everyone for their answers.
here the length of my knife

[hbhansen]

Thanks to everyone for their answers.
here the length of my knife

Not much difference there...

[Rick]

I could swear that an example of the original poster's knife form has been through the opinion mill here before . :confused:

I just can't find it . :(

[David]

Are you sure you are not thinking of the example that Emmanuel posted in post #25. It looks like it was first posted my Tim back in 2007 in this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5314

[Rick]

Okay, so Tim owns or owned the other example of this form .

I can't find the thread on that knife though; got the one on the chopper .

[Gavin Nugent]

Perhaps these belong to a member :shrug:

The top one appears from the angle of the image to share the same style bolster.
The bottom one shares "similar" markings.
The bottom one shares similar simplistic stlye leather/hide sheath with suspension loop.

More for the mystery team :D

[thinreadline]

Perhaps these belong to a member :shrug:

The top one appears from the angle of the image to share the same style bolster.
The bottom one shares "similar" markings.
The bottom one shares similar simplistic stlye leather/hide sheath with suspension loop.

More for the mystery team :D

And here are my two !

[thinreadline]

And here are my two !

Re my knives , kronckew identified his very similar one as a khodmi from Algeria Bou Sadi , on 21 Dec 2009

[Emanuel]

Hello,

I don't think the Bou Saada knives can be compared to the knife in question. The former have an integral bolster forged as part of the blade, whereas the latter has a a separate bolster, very different construction.

The circle motif decoration has been shown on many different types of weapons and objects from around the world with the good argument that it developed independently in most places. It's a simple design :shrug:
Same with the leather-clad wooden sheath.

I think the knife in question is a north-Indian/Central Asian derivative of the kard :shrug:

Regards,
Emanuel

[Dom]

Re my knives , kronckew identified his very similar one as a khodmi from Algeria Bou Sadi , on 21 Dec 2009Hi
I should like to know where are the similitudes between Henrik's knife (beautiful knife) :D
and ... Bou Saada, in general? :shrug:
i already have 3 and I see nothing :eek:
please HELP ... :p

à +

Dom

[thinreadline]

Hi
I should like to know where are the similitudes between Henrik's knife (beautiful knife) :D
and ... Bou Saada, in general? :shrug:
i already have 3 and I see nothing :eek:
please HELP ... :p

à +

Dom

And I entirely agree with you Dom ...I am not saying that they are similar to Henriks knife , I am just adding a couple of pictures of my Bou Saadi knives to those posted by freebooter . You need to ask freebooter this question !

[Dom]

You need to ask freebooter this question !
yes, and I did it after his "friendly tackle" :p
I explained my position after his terse question " :) "Yes but why" ;) "
may be he doesn't found time to do it ... :shrug:
because he doesn't answer yet
as all that it's for fun ... it's not important :D

à +

Dom

[chregu]

hello guys
North Africa, wrong way.
Only time fantasizing.
Blade shape. = Working Knife
Handle, I've seen several of these type of knife, never with a wooden handle, always ivory , why? there is no wood in this region? why never with horn handle?
Ivory handle. = There is a lot of ivory there. or ivory as a symbol?
Sheath, a part of the handle is in it, which occurs in many Knife by nomadic tribes so that the knife never get lost.
Why a second leather, on a leather sheath?
Sheath with belt loop = there are trousers worn with a belt or jacket with a belt?
South Asia, no, there are dresses tied with a sash.
These are just thoughts! smile.
gruss chregu

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi there :cool:

There are many aspects to work with what everyone has written to help us all with yes and no... "but why" should always be asked...it is not much longer than a no, but without "but why" there is no learning :rolleyes: I have quantified through following posts aspects for consideration both in Algeria & North Africa, SEA and Central Asia with both words and images :rolleyes:
....without rewriting everything, all views from all people help but things together and in context, is it fun :p

One must not forget colonial powers within any region and cutlery made for their tastes by native hands rather than keeping our minds eye native styles used by native people...could be Pakistan for all I know but offering information right or wrong and offering similarities and accuracies for thought may cloud but it also helps in the big picture.

Chegru, great to see further working deductions...no North Africa...do you dismiss Africa totally? I still feel with a qualified "in me bones" Africa.... :D Northern too :p
The finish to the steel blade, although I am not a blacksmith, this "rough" slag like finish I have seen often in daggers from Albacete....perhaps others have seen the finish elsewhere too :shrug:

All for now :confused:

[Gavin Nugent]

The scabbard strap and clasp arrangement on Chregu's example is again, close to those seen on 20th century British khukri. Same kind of belt attachment.

Emanuel

Please provide an image :shrug:

The same suspension arrangement is seen on the knife at the bottom post number 35 :shrug: Also the Turkish knife of similar construction in post 16 :shrug: I am sure countless other types of knife too.... :confused:

Edit; Thanks for the update with images, certainly only one of the Kukri sheaths are suspended in this manner of the knife in question, the others are not....can't help but remember my sold item stock s117, it is frog suspended, not stictched to the body of the sheath....credits or asking permission to use copyright images would be appreciated.... :)

Gav

[delor]

I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects.
There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.

[Gavin Nugent]

I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects.
There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.

My thoughts too Delor as this is the 4th of this style I have seen in the last few years...I know Bonhams listed one a while back too....

Gav

[A.alnakkas]

Hello All,

I dont think has any relation to north African knives. The Bu Saadi knives are defined mainly by the blade which is generally decorated with brass and colours. The scabbard is different aswell.

I think it looks more like asian items as Emanuel said!

[Gavin Nugent]

North Africa is a big place;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa

[Emanuel]

My apologies for uploading pictures from Google Images without visiting the website of those images indexed by Google to ask their copyright owner permission to use them on a public forum. :)

[Gavin Nugent]

My apologies for uploading pictures from Google Images without visiting the website of those images indexed by Google to ask their copyright owner permission to use them on a public forum. :)

:rolleyes: Tis ok, thank you :)

[hbhansen]

I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects.
There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.

When I hold the knife, i'm quite sure it's not a tourist's knife, it feels well made, solid and just to good for that purpose.
Today I reshaped one of the bends on the blade. It doesn't feel soft, IMO medium.
Best
Henrik

[Gavin Nugent]

When I hold the knife, i'm quite sure it's not a tourist's knife, it feels well made, solid and just to good for that purpose.
Today I reshaped one of the bends on the blade. It doesn't feel soft, IMO medium.
Best
Henrik

I don't think "tourist" is correct either. These are of a type, to me eye colonialist influenced solid utility knives...origins unknown :)

[thinreadline]

Hello All,

I dont think has any relation to north African knives. The Bu Saadi knives are defined mainly by the blade which is generally decorated with brass and colours. The scabbard is different aswell.

I think it looks more like asian items as Emanuel said!


Yes . The decorative motifs seem to be remarkably much like the Afghani knife you have recently posted on the 'Choora' thread.

[hbhansen]

I just found one more feature, that I missed in the first place.... This is only on the stamped side of the blade...

[spiral]

That features a rivet, the bolster isnt truly integral, ill post a kukri & some Karda in a few days that show some very similar features.

I think its NWF to Veitnam on horzontal travel, Southern China to southern Burma or Thailand on the vertical.

My real guess is Bengal/Assam/ Northen Burma....... small diameter ivory is Common , steel is at a preimium.

But nothing that makes the fat lady sing..... ;)

Spiral

[Richard G]

Thank you, Ibrahim and Jim, for your welcoming replies to my previous post.

This may put the cat amongst the pigeons. The materials, construction and decorative motifs are all the same as Henrik's original dagger, but the style certainly isn't. I don't know where it's from either, my gut feeling is Nepal or Afghanistan. I suspect the stamps on the blade will be the feature that will eventually identify the origin. To me they seem very distinctive, and very, very, heavily struck. I wonder if anyone has seen them on any other metalwork. BTW, this is a hefty piece, 17" long overall.

I seem to remember something similar once being described in an auction catalogue as Swahili Arab, but I can't remember any evidence for this.

I thought my previous photo's s bit OTT so I've tried to scale these back a bit.

Regards
Richard

[hbhansen]

Hi Richard.
That's very interesting ! Thanks for posting. There's no doubt that your piece and mine is from the same region !
But where is that :confused:
Best
Henrik

[chregu]

hello together
We are getting slowly closer! smile
definitely the same area! but no idea where.

[Gavin Nugent]

There are similarities here;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832

I also have found some other images to share later.

Gav

The later update....

The knife, although it has no bolster, is a warthog tusk, simple blade and red and black circle work. The pistol shares a butt with a similar style to the knife seen in post 56?...it appears North African...

I think the direction of thought can move back to Africa proper.

I still have a feeling/memory of North Africa, not saying itis right or wrong.
Perhaps, if these were north African, the Kaskara blade in the thread came by way of northern trade...fanciful but not beyond the realm of plausability.

Gav

[Emanuel]

Thought I'd add another chopper, originally posted by Tim in his thread. The pictures are from Field Service Antiques (http://www.fieldserviceantiquearms.co.uk/19th-century-north-india-sacrificial-sword--ram-dao-237-p.asp). This chopper is clearly from the same region as the knives in question. FSA had labelled it as a 19th century sacrificial sword - ram dao from north India, possibly Assam. The validity of this ID remains to be confirmed...The hilt does bring Burmese treatment to mind so perhaps not too far off.

Emanuel

[chregu]

so once again, to refresh this topic!
I found the note on the internet, knife from Burma.
website of a dealer who sells a similar piece.

[Richard G]

Thank you Chregu,
Assuming it is not against the rules could you please post directions to the website, so we can check the reference. I'm not saying the dealer is wrong, but there have been so many disparate suggestions as to the origin of these knives I'd like to know why he says it is Burmese.
Best wishes
Richard

[Gavin Nugent]

References certainly would add weight to any webpage description...even Bonhams has had these listed as African in the past....but without references....

[David R]

Looking at the knife in question, the plain side does not look "unworked" to me, it looks delaminated. In other words damage, perhaps from rust, perhaps acid used to clean it in the past, perhaps poor welds/slag inclusions etc, failing.

[chregu]

can not find the page!
But I did not say that it definitely is Burma, there was no proof!
for me it is only a hint to look in that direction!
I've said in the beginning, the resemblance to a Dha is big.
greeting Chregu

[colin henshaw]

I've seen this type of knife a few times over the years. The construction of the knife itself, and of the sheath, also the decoration, make me clearly feel they are from the northern part of the Indian sub-continent.

[Richard G]

Thank you Chegru, I understand. I can see a resemblance to a dha of Henrik's knife, but I'm not sure about mine. But I agree, it is worth investigating.

David R. The blade on my knife, and I think Henrik's, is not so much "unworked" as poorly finished, still showing file marks, and yes the steeel is of poor quality, showing signs of incipient lamination etc.

Colin. I have recently seen a bronze bowl with this dot and circle decoration and with an inscription in what I think is devanagari. I thought this was probably Nepali. Is this what you had in mind when you said "north indian"?
But then I suppose it could have been a Burmese bowl.

Regards
Richard

[Richard G]

Look at the first couple of knives in the "Knives and daggers - African" section of this website.
These knives are described as "North African."
However, the descriptions on this site do seem to be a bit general and I 'm not sure all are correct.
Regards
Richard

[hbhansen]

Funny :)
In the search for reference on an other knife I found two that is most likely from the same area as this one....

http://akaalarms.com/sold-huge-ivory-hilted-dagger-from-nw-india-or-afghanistan-ref-10162/

http://www.google.dk/imgres?sa=X&hl=en&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4NDKB_enDK558DK558&biw=1366&bih=641&tbm=isch&tbnid=rCg8ntaNAahGkM:&imgrefurl=http://www.antique-arms.net/sold-items.html&docid=psfs13QmLZESpM&imgurl=http://www.antique-arms.net/images/north%252520west%252520indian%252520dagger1.jpg&w=698&h=696&ei=pK1yUtKbEu7n4QTK2IGQDw&zoom=1&iact=rc&page=4&tbnh=172&tbnw=178&start=79&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:79,s:0&tx=88&ty=94

Especially the last one, with the circles on the back of the hilt and at the end.

Both dealers claims that these are from North West India or Afghanistan....

[Richard G]

Sometimes I think these references or attributions go round in circles, and, forgive me if I offend the dealers in the forum, but they do need an attribution. It must be a lot harder to sell on the basis of "I don't know".
So far the only positive claim I know of to have seen these in situ is "Blacksmith" in this thread.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16661&highlight=maure

My guess is that these are from Tibet. I saw the same type of knives on the border area between Nepal and Tibet when I was trawelling there on 2007.
Regards, Timo

Regards
Richard

[Gavin Nugent]

oops