PALEMBANG HILT AND KERIS

[ganjawulung]

I have a problem with this Palembang keris and hilt. All I want to do is to clean the black-rusty blade with "kelapa" (coconut) husk. But unfortunately, the hilt is fixed firmly to the pesi. Too firm, and not possible for you to open or even to turn the hilt with your bare hand...

What would you suggest me to do: (1) Must I open the hilt first (2) but how to open such firm fixation? Or (3) just submerge all -- blade and hilt -- to the "blandongan" full with coconut husk? (4) Or clean the blade, without unfix the hilt? How?

Thanks in advance for your advice,

GANJAWULUNG

[Sajen]

Hello Ganjawulung,

do you have tried to heat the blade? Most of the time I have had success by this. Heat the blade and try careful to move the hilt. Sometimes you have to repeat this many times until the hilt become incoherent.

[Moshah]

Salam pak ganja,

Could u post some close up pix of that lovely hilt?

Is it ivory?

[kai]

Hello Pak Ganja,

Beautiful hilt - very expressive fangs! Sure looks ivory.

The hilt could be still fixed with resin - heat will easily do to remove the blade.

The pesi could also be heavily corroded and rust holding the hilt in place. Although there is a chance of damage, it would IMHO still be better to remove it, especially before soaking it since water and rust won't do any good and there's a chance that the hilt may get cracked from accumulating rust eventually.

Are there any cracks visible close the hilt's base? If not, it should be pretty safe to apply gentle heat to the sorsoran area (holding the hilt/selut with a heat-resistant glove helps to avoid heating the hilt). When hot, gently try to twist the hilt. If it doesn't move, let it cool completely and reheat/cool several times. I'm sure you've utilized this procedure quite a few times already...

Regards,
Kai

[ganjawulung]

Thanks Detlef, Moshah and Kai,

For this time being, I still keep it like it is. With the hilt firmly fixed. IMHO, it is not ivory but "duyung" or dugong hilt. You may look at the different brownish and yellowish colour of it. Images below, are different views of this hilt. The size, it seems bigger than usual...

I will try the last step to open the hilt. Then, what would you suggest the way to clean the blade without unfixing the hilt, please?

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, removal of a firmly fixed hilt is not usually a problem.

If you use a candle or small kerosene lamp for the heat source, there is no possibility of doing damage to the hilt, provided you are reasonably careful.

I suggest that you should work with bare hands, so that you can feel how hot the blade and hilt become during the process, this will safeguard against over heating.

I can understand your caution with attempts to remove the hilt on this keris. I have had two Palembang tangs break while attempting to remove a rusted on hilt. I suspect that perhaps the adhesive that they used to use in that area may have had a corrosive effect.

If this were my keris I would try the heat first, but I would not exert excessive force in trying to twist it off.

If you are bound and determined not to remove the hilt, the blade can be cleaned by repeated brushing with a mild acid, and rinse with water. Freshly squeezed lime juice will do it.

It would probably be a good idea to coat the selut with nail polish, and to wrap the hilt with plastic cling wrap before you start. The nail polish will come off easily with acetone, when you finish the job.

[ganjawulung]

Thanks Alan,

With heat treatment, although only with small kerosene lamp ("teplok" in javanese), doesn't it hurt the blade? Because I like so much the blade too..

GANJAWULUNG

[Sajen]

No problem when you don't over heat the blade, after warangan it don't will be visible anymore. ;)

BTW, very nice hilt and blade IMHO, is there a sheat?

[Rick]

Cover the area to be heated tightly with aluminum foil.
Heat transfer with no soot .

[ganjawulung]

Thanks Rick for the advice,

I would try to be brave to unfix it... but step by step. Maybe I would try to "steam" it first, not to heat it in direct flame...

@sajen, yes Detlef, it has a Palembang warangka. But still in repairement of the "gandar" side, broken a bit. Sure, later I will post the foto of it after it is ready..

Thanks, for all the advice.

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

The heat from a candle or a small kero lamp (senthir) will definitely not hurt the blade.

Yes, it will get very dirty, but the soot just washes off with turps, and you need to clean and stain the blade anyway.

I would not go anywhere near it with steam, because unlike a direct heat, the steam is not controllable, and you do not want that hilt to get bathed in steam.

I've removed all sorts of hilts with heat, as I describe, not just keris hilts, but pedangs, tombaks, badiks, western custom knives, old western cutlery --- all sorts of blades from all sorts of hilts with all sorts of adhesives, including modern epoxies. Because I've had so much experience I usually use a propane torch when I'm at home, but I will never recommend that to somebody new at this. A candle or a little kero lamp will do exactly the same job, its just dirtier --- which doesn't matter at all, and slower, which also doesn't matter.


Afterthought:- even if you did get the blade really hot, you've got to take up to straw-blue to draw the temper from heat-treated steel, and this part of a keris blade is not heat-treated anyway, its still soft, so there's no temper to draw. Don't forget:- you're only heating the sorsoran. You just can't get it to this sort of heat with a candle. Direct heat will not hurt it.

[ganjawulung]

Not succeeded yet..
I've tried the first way (1) steamed the blade upon a pot of water (of course, it was an unused pot) for more than an hour -- hot, cold, then hot, and cold etc. Not moved at all. And (2) I took a big risk by heating the blade upon a small flame of kitchen gas -- hot, cold, and hot, cold. Not succeeded too... Very "stubborn"... (image below)

Then, I let it as it is again. And thinking of trying to clean the blade without submerging the hilt, of course... Still thinking how to do it.

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

If I owned this keris I would not be brave enough to use either of these methods, and I cannot see how sufficient heat could be applied to the blade with either method to get the tang hot enough to encourage the tang to come free.

Buy a candle.

[Sajen]

If I owned this keris I would not be brave enough to use either of these methods, and I cannot see how sufficient heat could be applied to the blade with either method to get the tang hot enough to encourage the tang to come free.

Buy a candle.


Agree, don't capitulate.

[Moshah]

Wow, very risky! I really hope you to be careful :)

I just wonder was pak Ganja's hilt is the one called "palembang hulu burung" or was the attached pix is?

What is the difference between both (except the material difference)? I can see some similar carvings pattern there, but the style is not the same...

thanks in advance pals for letting me know...

[ganjawulung]

Buy a candle.
Not succeeded yet, Alan. Not moved at all...

GANJAWULUNG

[ganjawulung]

Thanks Alan, and all,

The hilt is already unfixed, and I've cleaned the blade too....

GANJAWULUNG

[ganjawulung]

I just wonder was pak Ganja's hilt is the one called "palembang hulu burung" or was the attached pix is?

What is the difference between both (except the material difference)? I can see some similar carvings pattern there, but the style is not the same...

Dear Moshah,
Honestly, I am not the expert on this. Just collecting. I think Shahrial (Alamshah) could explain it well.

GANJAWULUNG

[DAHenkel]

Moshah - There are a lot of variations of keris hilts from South Sumatra. Pak Ganja's hilt is generally understood to be a Palembang hilt. Yours on the other hand probably comes from somewhere else in South Sumatra - I suspect Lampung. I recall a couple similar examples provenanced to Lampung anyway. However there is so little information on these areas and unless or until we find a knowledgable local collector the area will remain imperfectly understood. I was just in Palembang and visited all the main local museums but unfortunately the only weapons display - in the Sultan Mahmud Badruddin Museum - was small and included several obviously non-Palembang pieces. It was not an edifying experience...

[ganjawulung]

Thanks Dave,

I've sent message to Karaeng Kesuma in facebook to join this discussion, if he won't mind. He stays in Lampung, and has a couple of Sumatran keris photo collection in his facebook...

Btw, this Palembang hilt. Could I compose it with this silver pendokok?

GANJAWULUNG

[kai]

Hello Pak Ganja,

Congrats, I like the pamor!

Did perseverance do the job or how did you got the hilt off?


Btw, this Palembang hilt. Could I compose it with this silver pendokok?
Looks perfectly fine to me. Most Palembang keris, even with lesser hilts, seem to come with silver pendokok and I was already wondering about the combination of such a finely carved ivory hilt and a fairly simple brass pendokok. Any hints from the condition of the pesi and materials utilized to fix the hulu on how old the combination might be?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

IMHO, it is not ivory but "duyung" or dugong hilt.
Forgot to comment earlier: Ivory is a general term and includes other tooth from animals like dugong, walrus, hippotamus, etc.

P.S.: It would be great if you could invite more Indonesian keris collectors to our little warung kopi! We all realize that the language barrier can be a challenge. Every contribution would be valuable and appreciated though!

BTW, are there any good translation services like babelfish that cover English to Bahasa Indonesia or Malay?

Regards,
Kai

[ganjawulung]

Yes Kai,

It took a lot of patience, to repeat the same process -- hot, cold, hot, cold. More than any javanese keris. Yes, the "candle method" that Alan suggested, helped much the process.

The fixing material, seems to be traditional -- blackish, and rusty laquer. I don't know precisely what it is. Maybe like traditional javanese 'lacquer' (I don't know to describe it too), but more rusty... (picture below)

The "hard" ivory -- not elephant tusk -- also make the hilt difficult to remove, because of the narrow hole, and the rusty lacquer material. The pesi is shorter than javanese pesi, but still in good condition.

I've asked our Indonesian college to join this discussion group, but usually they participate passively, reading this discussion. They have some discussion group in Bahasa -- like FDK (Forum Diskusi Keris) in Yahoo with more than 200 members, and also you may see in Facebook too, there are some small groups of discussion. In Bahasa, of course...

GANJAWULUNG

[Alam Shah]

Moshah - There are a lot of variations of keris hilts from South Sumatra. Pak Ganja's hilt is generally understood to be a Palembang hilt. Yours on the other hand probably comes from somewhere else in South Sumatra - I suspect Lampung. I recall a couple similar examples provenanced to Lampung anyway. However there is so little information on these areas and unless or until we find a knowledgable local collector the area will remain imperfectly understood. I was just in Palembang and visited all the main local museums but unfortunately the only weapons display - in the Sultan Mahmud Badruddin Museum - was small and included several obviously non-Palembang pieces. It was not an edifying experience...Hi, agreed with Dave's comments about both hilts. Palembang is a tricky place, as we know, it's a centre where many regional forms meet. There are locals in various keris/study groups, concentrating on the local forms. Karaeng Kesuma, is one such collector. There are others.. ;)

[Sajen]

Thanks Dave,

I've sent message to Karaeng Kesuma in facebook to join this discussion, if he won't mind. He stays in Lampung, and has a couple of Sumatran keris photo collection in his facebook...

Btw, this Palembang hilt. Could I compose it with this silver pendokok?

GANJAWULUNG

Hello Pak Ganja,

the silver pendokok look nice with the hilt and blade. Do you want to give a warangan to the blade or you want to let it unstained?

Regards,

Detlef

[Moshah]

Thanks Dave, pak Ganja and bro Alam for those inputs.

I asked because two things:

1) Normally lampung hilts have long, curved beaks.

2) The hilt picture I posted have similar motives to pak Ganja's ivory hilt motives.

I didn't doubt it will be from Lampung, but was the curves on the posted hilt's body is normal for it's kind?

I really know very little about lampung hilts, so any inputs from all of you are really helpful...

[Sajen]

Thanks Dave, pak Ganja and bro Alam for those inputs.

I asked because two things:

1) Normally lampung hilts have long, curved beaks.

2) The hilt picture I posted have similar motives to pak Ganja's ivory hilt motives.

I didn't doubt it will be from Lampung, but was the curves on the posted hilt's body is normal for it's kind?

I really know very little about lampung hilts, so any inputs from all of you are really helpful...


Hello Moshah,

there are a lot of different styles of this south sumatran hilt. But I also don't know how to differentiate between.

Here examples from my collection. The pictures are taken fast so I apologize for the quality.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

And there is a hilt type with similar features but also with style elements from Cirebon. So I am never sure from where this hilt coming.

[Moshah]

Hi Detlef,

Thanks for those beautiful hilts pics!

i think it bears similarities to your hilt no 1 (the first pix), especially the carving motives.

Is that first pix hilt was a true blue lampung hilt?

Could u post the picture of the first one, this time from the back of the hilt?

Sorry for the inconveniences...

[Sajen]

Hi Detlef,

Thanks for those beautiful hilts pics!

i think it bears similarities to your hilt no 1 (the first pix), especially the carving motives.

Is that first pix hilt was a true blue lampung hilt?

Could u post the picture of the first one, this time from the back of the hilt?

Sorry for the inconveniences...

Hi Moshah,

I received the hilt together with the keris and I I ever have thought that it is a Palembang keris.

Here the requested pictures. The keris was shown in this thread before:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10998

Regards,

Detlef

[Moshah]

Oh is it...

No wonder I can still recall that kinatah works. :)

However in that recent post about this keris, the hilt was not really featured, so this is the first close-up isn't it?

Nice hilt. Also now I learned that this kind of hilt is not necessarily means it's a palembang made.

What a cultural entwined we have here... ;)

[kai]

Hello Pak Ganja,

The fixing material, seems to be traditional -- blackish, and rusty laquer. I don't know precisely what it is. Maybe like traditional javanese 'lacquer' (I don't know to describe it too), but more rusty... (picture below)
Probably damar (or more precisely a traditional mix based on damar resin) which is quite commonly found on Sumatran/Malay keris. Could also be shellac but I'd consider this a non-traditional material for attaching a hilt.

The "hard" ivory -- not elephant tusk -- also make the hilt difficult to remove, because of the narrow hole, and the rusty lacquer material.
Yes, looks like a pressure fit enhanced with a thin layer of resin. This can be very tight, especially when rust has developed.

The pesi is shorter than javanese pesi, but still in good condition.
Yes, the pesi looks perfectly fine for a keris Palembang. From the corrosion, the tip doesn't look recently shortened, doesn't it?

I'm less certain about the ganja though: Not only does the metalwork look much more crisp than the blade but also the hole for the pesi seems to have much less corrosion than the pesi...

Regards,
Kai

[Jean]

Not succeeded yet..
I've tried the first way (1) steamed the blade upon a pot of water (of course, it was an unused pot) for more than an hour -- hot, cold, then hot, and cold etc. Not moved at all. And (2) I took a big risk by heating the blade upon a small flame of kitchen gas -- hot, cold, and hot, cold. Not succeeded too... Very "stubborn"... (image below)

Then, I let it as it is again. And thinking of trying to clean the blade without submerging the hilt, of course... Still thinking how to do it.

GANJAWULUNG

Hello Ganjawulung,
I was facing the same problem as yourself with 2 Bugis blades needing warangan and fitted with large ivory hilts strongly stuck to the peksi. I tried in vain to loose them by heating with a candle or small gas lighter and it did not work (I was probably not patient enough).
Today I decided to test a new strategy, namely to insert and heat the whole blade into our kitchen oven adjusted on "rotating heat" to ensure uniform temperature and set at 120°C, and it worked very well for the 2 hilts without any damage. The hilts were glued with traditional dark brown resin and not epoxy glue of course. It took me about 10 minutes to release the first hilt, and 5 for the second as the oven was still hot...
The advantage of this method is that the hilt is progressively and uniformely heated at the desired temperature unlike with a flame (ivory is a poorly conductive material), so there is less risk of cracking it... My concern was that the peksi would expand more than the hole with heat and could cause a crack to the hilt, but it fortunately did not occur and I feel fully confident to repeat the experience if needed.
Best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

You're a braver man than I am Jean.

In respect of pesi expansion causing a crack in the hilt:-

over a + 50 year period I have removed more hilts than I can remember from various types of blades, certainly the number of hilts I have removed would be somewhere in the hundreds. When I am at home I use a propane torch to heat the blade, when I am in Jawa I use either a candle or a small kerosene lamp. Removal of a hilt is something that I do as a very simple and basic operation that requires no thought and no interruption to work flow.
Never, ever, have I had a hilt crack during removal because of heat expansion.

I would not recommend any inexperienced person to use a propane torch.

[rasdan]

heat the whole blade into our kitchen oven adjusted on "rotating heat" to ensure uniform temperature and set at 120°C


Keris food channel.. Now i had heard everything.. :eek: :D

[Jean]

You're a braver man than I am Jean.

In respect of pesi expansion causing a crack in the hilt:-

over a + 50 year period I have removed more hilts than I can remember from various types of blades, certainly the number of hilts I have removed would be somewhere in the hundreds. When I am at home I use a propane torch to heat the blade, when I am in Jawa I use either a candle or a small kerosene lamp. Removal of a hilt is something that I do as a very simple and basic operation that requires no thought and no interruption to work flow.
Never, ever, have I had a hilt crack during removal because of heat expansion.

I would not recommend any inexperienced person to use a propane torch.


Dear Alan,
I did break one ivory hilt while trying to remove it after heating it and the sorsoran with a hair dryer set at maximum temperature (probably not hot enough) but I think that it was broken before and re-glued.
Best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, it might pay you to talk to a conservator, or perhaps specialist dealer in ivories about the optimum manner in which to treat and store ivory.

Additionally, you need to be aware that some woods used in Javanese keris hilts are recommended to be worn only at night and not to be exposed to sunlight.

The major problem with all heating methods other than the traditional one of direct low heat is that it is impossible to direct the heat to exactly the area required, you simply cannot control it to a sufficient degree.

By "low heat", I mean a heat which will not alter the degree of hardness in the blade. This is not particularly vital for a keris blade, but it can be an important consideration for western knives, cutlery, custom knives, and some eastern daggers.

[Jean]

Jean, it might pay you to talk to a conservator, or perhaps specialist dealer in ivories about the optimum manner in which to treat and store ivory.

Additionally, you need to be aware that some woods used in Javanese keris hilts are recommended to be worn only at night and not to be exposed to sunlight.

The major problem with all heating methods other than the traditional one of direct low heat is that it is impossible to direct the heat to exactly the area required, you simply cannot control it to a sufficient degree.

By "low heat", I mean a heat which will not alter the degree of hardness in the blade. This is not particularly vital for a keris blade, but it can be an important consideration for western knives, cutlery, custom knives, and some eastern daggers.

Alan,
Any decent conservator or specialized ivory dealer would be horrified by my ivory heat treatment method in the electric oven but it worked!
I would not expect that heating & cooling progressively a blade to 120°C could have any effect on the steel blade, do you? But exposing it to a naked gas flame like Pak Ganja could be more harmful?
For our education, would you please tell us which types of Javanese woods should not be exposed to sunlight?
Thanks and best regards
Jean
Jean

[ganjawulung]

Thanks to you, for all the advice,

@sajen: no, I won't give warangan to this blade. Or maybe yes, but not with "javanese way" of soaking method.
@shahrial: yes, agree. Palembang once used to be the centre of the sumatran keris, unfortunately many -- or if not almost all -- palembang kerises have almost all "gone to peninsula". I've chatted a lot with Karaeng in facebook, that according to him, offers of great sums of money from penninsula is really very tempting for everyone there... great money. Karaeng is only among few Palembang area people (he stays in Lampung, you know it already) who still maintains the family heirloom. Interesting collection...
@kai: yes, kai, it was more damar resin than 'javanese' method of shellac. More pressure fit, enhanced by rusty pesi and layer of damar resin. Much easier to remove javanese pressure fit hilts...
On the 'later ganja', with different metal material. Don't you think this keris was intentionally fitted with 'ganja wulung'?
@jean: I must agree with Alan. Not to brave enough to experiment in blade heating on oven. Heating the blade at such heat, of course not-not harming the blade...

Anyway, thanks to you all..
GANJAWULUNG

[kai]

Hello Jean,

Any decent conservator or specialized ivory dealer would be horrified by my ivory heat treatment method in the electric oven but it worked!
While metal is usually very forgiving, organic materials utilized for fittings (wood, horn, bone/stag, ivory, MOP, etc.) is susceptible to shifts in temperature and, especially, humidity. This could result in short-term damages like cracks but also long-time preservation might be affected... I'd strongly recomment to stick with the traditional candle approach (preferably blocking the hilt from radiating heat with a padded glove) and lots of patience (i.e. many cycles to loosen up a "stubborn" blade). Alan has worked on many more blades than me and if he says this method succeeds then this should be good enough.

I would not expect that heating & cooling progressively a blade to 120°C could have any effect on the steel blade, do you?
No, completely harmless.

But exposing it to a naked gas flame like Pak Ganja could be more harmful?
IMHO the main problem is the not-so-local application of the heat as well as the much more intense radiating heat possibly affecting the hilt.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Pak Ganja,

On the 'later ganja', with different metal material. Don't you think this keris was intentionally fitted with 'ganja wulung'?
You have it in your hands - does it really look like a later replacement? From the pics the surface looks much smoother and the scroll-work more crisp; thus, this would be my working hypothesis if hands-on examination doesn't reveal hints to the contrary.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Well Jean, it seems you know the risks, but are not concerned about them.

I rest my case.

The blade is made of iron and steel and possibly nickel or other contrasting material. Only the steel is affected by heat treatment to harden during manufacture, and most blades are not hardened closer to the gonjo than about 6 or 7 cm. at most; often it is only the first few centis that are hardened, since the application of heat to remove a hilt is restricted to the sorsoran, the part of the blade that gets hot has not been hardened, which means that nothing short of red heat will affect that part of the blade --- of course, if you took it to red heat, the hardness further down the blade would be drawn because it would go into blue/yellow or higher, if it went higher than blue/yellow you would lose the hardness.

The way I work is to hold the hilt in one hand and the bare blade about 12 centis from the gonjo with the other hand. When the blade gets uncomfortably hot I take it away from the heat for a couple of minutes, then return it when it is cooler.

Working like this I can control the heat 100% and at the same time I can feel if the hilt itself is getting too hot, bear in mind that my hand is shielding the hilt from direct heat, any heat I can feel in the hilt is coming from the pesi.

When at home I use a propane torch with a relatively bushy flame that I hold in a vice and I pass the blade backwards and forth across the flame and alternate the sides, I can usually get 99% of hilts off in a few minutes, the very, very few that are stubborn get the heat/cool/heat/cool treatment over a number of days until they surrender.

When I'm in Solo I use either a little kerrosene lamp or a candle and play the flame directly and steadily onto the blade, when it comes time to try to separate blade and hilt I use an old bit of rag to grip the blade.

Using the lamp or the candle it is totally impossible to get the blade hot enough to do it any damage at all.

Using the propane torch it would be very easy for an inexperienced person to draw the blade hardness.

My concerns with hair dryers, ovens, boiling water , mirrors reflecting the sun's rays, geothermal heat, room heaters, etc, etc, etc is not that they will harm the blade material, but that because the heat cannot be localised and directed to a sufficiently small area, that heat will inevitably heat the hilt, and it will cause damage to some degree.

In respect of wood used for keris hilts.

It is recognised that it is not good for any wood to be exposed to direct sunlight, as the heat can cause cracking.However, the one wood which must never be exposed to heat or sunlight is tayuman. Another wood that is very susceptable to heat and moisture change is burl teak ( jati gembol). This wood moves and cracks can open up in it because of the movement.

Really, its just common sense:- nobody would consider for a moment that it was OK to place a piece of antique furniture in direct sunlight. Do this on a hot day and you could come back to something where all the joints had loosened and cracks had opened in the polished surfaces --- you might get away with it a couple times, but sooner or later you'll ruin something. So you just don't take the risk. No different with the wood used for keris dress. The caution should not be limited to only antique dress:- make a few enquiries of modern custom knifemakers and see how many will gaurantee natural materials in hilts and scabbards against cracking or distortion.

[BluErf]

Alan,
Any decent conservator or specialized ivory dealer would be horrified by my ivory heat treatment method in the electric oven but it worked!

I'm not a conservator, but I extremely horrified by what you have done! :shrug:

Though 120 degrees will do no damage to the blade, spare a thought for the hilt, for it is also an integral part of a complete keris. A good old hilt is a record of the carving skills and aesthetics of a period past. Destroying it is like burning books.

[Jean]

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]Well Jean, it seems you know the risks, but are not concerned about them.

Dear Alan,
Yes, I knew the risk but carefully analyzed it beforehand and took my chance, I will elaborate more about it, thank you for the detailed description of your procedure and I will try it next time.
Best regards
Jean

[Jean]

I'm not a conservator, but I extremely horrified by what you have done! :shrug:

Though 120 degrees will do no damage to the blade, spare a thought for the hilt, for it is also an integral part of a complete keris. A good old hilt is a record of the carving skills and aesthetics of a period past. Destroying it is like burning books.

Hello BluErf,
I am not a conservator nor a conservative person myself but I take the full responsibility of what I have done and I will try to explain why:
Let me first say that the 2 hilts in question (pictures 6.1 and 6.3 in my hilt book) are extremely precious to me and that I did not make this experiment before a careful risk analysis. Hilt # 6.1 is made from hippo ivory and 6.3 from dugong ivory I think and both of them have a particularly dense and homogenous structure with virtually no cracks.
Ivory is considered as an organic material but actually it is mostly inorganic, containing about 55% of calcium and some magnesium phosphate, the rest bein collagen material. This is obviously a very positive factor regarding the heat resistance of the material (I looked for some info on Internet about the heat resistance of ivory but did not find anything).
I took full advantage of the failed steaming experience performed by Pak Ganja to draw 2 conclusions:
1. Ivory is not affected by exposure to a temperature of 100 °C in fully humid conditions (humidity is considered as very harmful for ivory).
2. A temperature of 100 °C (or may be a little less) is not sufficient to soften the gluing resin around the peksi hole.
My conclusion is that for softening the resin, you need to heat the peksi and peksi hole (i.e the inside of the hilt) to a temperature above 100°C.
As my previous experiences with a candle failed due to insufficient heat flux or lack of patience and I have no kerosene lamp or equivalent, I decided to heat the whole blade into the oven set on hot air circulation and heated progressively for avoiding temperature peaks and thermal stresses on the hilt.
As compared to the traditional heating method with a flame, the main difference is that the hilt is also subject to the same temperature as the blade, i.e. 120°c maximum, but as I said and from my grinded teeth experience at the dentist, I felt confident that the ivory hilt could safely withstand it without damage. A positive factor of the oven procedure in my opinion is that there is no thermal gradient across the hilt as with a flame (120°C at the peksi hole or inside of the hilt and ambient on the outside as ivory is a highly insulating material).
To date I guarantee you that there not the slightest sign of damage or decay to the hilts, but if anyting wrong appears in future I will advise the forum accordingly and apologize for my mistake (no progress is made without daring break the tradition).
Still extremely horrified? :eek:
Best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep.

[ganjawulung]

You have it in your hands - does it really look like a later replacement? From the pics the surface looks much smoother and the scroll-work more crisp; thus, this would be my working hypothesis if hands-on examination doesn't reveal hints to the contrary.

IMHO, Palembang style was much influenced to javanese style. We could still see until now, many old Palembang blades are sometimes quite similar to javanese blades. A ganjawulung fixed to a blade, is quite common in Java. And I think it could be common to Palembang style too.

(Images below, the more complete picture of my Palembang keris, with another silver pendokok...)

GANJAWULUNG

[ganjawulung]

And another close up of the hilt and the silver pendokok...

GANJAWULUNG

[ganjawulung]

Dear All,

Another images of a Palembang keris, but with Cirebonese "buta" hilt. Is is a match pair, a Cirebon hilt on a Palembang keris?

GANJAWULUNG

[PenangsangII]

Dear Pak Ganjawulung,

IMHO, Cirebonese hilts are the most flexible. It can match any Javanese blade and Wrangka, or Malay blade and sarung..... even Buginese's.

[ganjawulung]

Yes, Penangsang,

Agree. If you have a Segaluh keris -- with the specific protruding gandhik with sekar kacang -- it is difficult to get a match pairing with javanese (solonese, or jogjanese) hilt. But almost certain, will match with Cirebon hilt. Especially the "buta" hilt...

GANJAWULUNG

[Sajen]

Dear All,

Another images of a Palembang keris, but with Cirebonese "buta" hilt. Is is a match pair, a Cirebon hilt on a Palembang keris?

GANJAWULUNG

Hello Pak Ganjawulung,

can you show us a closeup view from the hilt?

Regards,

Detlef

[ganjawulung]

Images of my Cirebon hilt, as requested by Detlef...

GANJAWULUNG

[Sajen]

Images of my Cirebon hilt, as requested by Detlef...

GANJAWULUNG

Thank you, very fine and dilly carved hilt and doesn't disturb the overall impression of the ensemble even it is from Cirebon.

[Unkiemonk]

Hi all,
Hoping this thread may find some new activity as it touches on carving styles of the Lampung region. I acquired what I believe to be a late 18th century south Sumatran war canoe prow some time ago and have had some degree of trouble confirming its place of manufacture. After stumbling across this thread and references to hilts of the Lampung region in Gaspard de Narval’s ‘Ukiran’, the stylistic similarities between the prow and the Jawa Demam hilts of Lampung are the closest I have yet identified. To me, the spiral eyes and wing motif are the most similar stylistic traits to that seen on the Lampung hilts, though this may be way off the mark.The shortage of texts on Lampung carving styles/motifs has left me a little frustrated, so I was hoping for any and all suggestions or thoughts on the prow, including suggested reading.

Any thoughts on tribal origin, motif (Garuda?), symbolism, type of timber (Teak?), or age, would be greatly appreciated. Some incised decoration depicting a bull/buffalo, centipede and possibly a scorpion appear on the neck of the prow (unsure of their symbolic meaning).
Many thanks,

Unk

www.flickr.com/photos/67622735@N06/6152721025/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67622735@N06/6152721071/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67622735@N06/6152721133/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67622735@N06/6152721191/

[David]

Oh, i see you already saw this thread. :o
I believe most of these hilts are either Palembang or Cirebon, not Lampung.
As for you attachments, they need to be added directly to this site via our Manage Attachments button. Thanks... :)

[Rick]

^^^
This .
We need pictures for the archive; not links . :)

Links die and then the thread becomes useless . :(

[ganjawulung]

More on Palembang hulu and keris...

[Sajen]

More on Palembang hulu and keris...

Hello Ganjawulung,

very nice handles and blades! :) Are the pendokos on the left and right old or new ones?

Best regards,

Detlef

[ganjawulung]

Old ones, dear Detlef. I hope you could see the different yellow of those golds. Not dark yellow, but light yellow... Later I would post the close ups.

Thks
GANJAWULUNG

[ganjawulung]

Close ups of the Palembang pendokoks, as requested by Detlef...

GANJAWULUNG

[ganjawulung]

Dear Klungkung,

Just to remind again, that we had a long discussion about Palembang keris in this warung in the past. Just to complete the discussion of the topics raised by our pal, Klungkung ....

Ganjawulung

[KLUNGKLUNG]

Dear all,

Shocking pics about a damaged DURGA handle (never saw a similar with carvings, only the 'bare' ones !) after I tried to free it from the peksi with the heating method but I new I could not avoid it as the handle already had a severe lengthwise crack. After it got off I saw it was once repaired already with glue and 1 single nail!
I restored it the best I could with wood putty. The blade shipped to Java for cleaning as it has promising pamor.

[ganjawulung]

Gosh,

Rarely seen Lampung keris handle has carved like that, Klungkung. Really have not seen before, a "putri malu" hilt (according to local people) such as this. Nice. Unfortunately, it cracked and broke down. But the fact that the damage can be repaired carefully, in order to recover such as never broke.

I happen to also have, Lampung carved keris handles. Even more fully carved, and the material is made of old ivory. It's just about the size of a patrem....

Ganjawulung

[Jean]

Gosh,

Rarely seen Lampung keris handle has carved like that, Klungkung. Really have not seen before, a "putri malu" hilt (according to local people) such as this. Nice. Unfortunately, it cracked and broke down. But the fact that the damage can be repaired carefully, in order to recover such as never broke.

I happen to also have, Lampung carved keris handles. Even more fully carved, and the material is made of old ivory. It's just about the size of a patrem....

Ganjawulung

Is there a consensus that this type of "Durga" hilts specifically originates from Lampung and not Bengkulu or Palembang?
Regards :)

[ganjawulung]

Dear Jean,

Among local people in Sumatra -- especially the Southern part of Sumatra -- there is no mention of such keris hilt as "durga hilt". You may traced yourself this fact there. It seems, the keris term of "durga hilt" comes from the West, from the author of articles and books on keris, Martin Kerner.

Among the keris people in Sumatra, whether it's in Palembang or other parts of southern Sumatra, they call this type of keris hilt as "putri malu" (shy princess). Is there a consensus, to refer to this type of Lampung hilt? Maybe so. Although there is also a kind of "putri malu" (with different body shape, a bit more twisted), known also as the keris hilt from Lahat, which borders the region of Bengkulu in the south western coast.

Clearly, if you look through the history of Sumatra, the most southern region of Sumatra's Lampung (old name in ancient times, Kedaton) is never separated from Palembang long history, and the history of the legendary kingdom of Sriwijaya. Traces of Sriwijaya was still being tracked.

However, the old Malay inscriptions have been found there, in Lampung. Yet, many of its languages ​​are not Malayan languages, but Lampungic comprise the group.

Ganjawulung

[Jean]

Dear Jean,

Among local people in Sumatra -- especially the Southern part of Sumatra -- there is no mention of such keris hilt as "durga hilt". You may traced yourself this fact there. It seems, the keris term of "durga hilt" comes from the West, from the author of articles and books on keris, Martin Kerner.

Among the keris people in Sumatra, whether it's in Palembang or other parts of southern Sumatra, they call this type of keris hilt as "putri malu" (shy princess). Is there a consensus, to refer to this type of Lampung hilt? Maybe so. Although there is also a kind of "putri malu" (with different body shapes canting), known also as the keris hilt from Lahat, which borders the region of Bengkulu in the south western coast.

Clearly, if you look through the history of Sumatra, the most southern region of Sumatra's Lampung (old name in ancient times, Kedaton) is never separated from Palembang long history, and the history of the legendary kingdom of Sriwijaya. Traces of Sriwijaya was still being tracked.

However, the old Malay inscriptions have been found there, in Lampung. Yet, many of its languages ​​are not Malayan languages, but Lampungic comprise the group.

Ganjawulung

Pak Ganja,
Thanks for your reply. Other Western authors such as Karsten S. Jensen also attribute this type of hilt to Durga but he refers to Martin Kerner indeed (see book Keris-Griffe/ Museum Rietberg Zurich page 60).
Vanna Ghiringhelli attributes the origin of this hilt to Bengkulu but there may be various types indeed. Anyway let us adopt the name putri malu which seems more adequate!
Best regards :)

[Sajen]

Gosh,

Rarely seen Lampung keris handle has carved like that, Klungkung. Really have not seen before, a "putri malu" hilt (according to local people) such as this. Nice. Unfortunately, it cracked and broke down. But the fact that the damage can be repaired carefully, in order to recover such as never broke.

I happen to also have, Lampung carved keris handles. Even more fully carved, and the material is made of old ivory. It's just about the size of a patrem....

Ganjawulung

Beautiful putri malu hilt, thank you for sharing Pak Ganja!

[ganjawulung]

Dear Jean and Sajen,

Yes, I also happened to ask this at friends in a facebook group, Sumatra group on keris and tosan aji. Friends of Palembang and Lampung, both confirmed this kind of hilt as "putri malu". And I happened to know any better, a native who is preparing a book on Lampung keris. He also confirmed this name of hilt as "putri malu"...

This specimen below, is according to him Lahat style of "putri malu". More "twisted" and has a specific form of "triangular" face. That's Lahat to him. (He was born in Lampung, and still finishing his book on Lampung Keris. Hopefully in the near future....)

[Loedjoe]

I was very interested to see references to a forthcoming book on Lampung keris. Could you give us the author's name, and the title of the book, so that we can look out for it when it is published, please? Presumably it will be announced on the forum when it appears? I look forward to seeing it.

[ganjawulung]

Dear Loedjoe,

I do not dare to say it now. To be sure, he focused his attention to researching the Sumatran keris, Palembang and mainly Lampung keris. Some times we discussed on Sumatran traditional weapon that is not less interesting, namely "Sumatran badik". Unfortunately, some beautiful specimens of Sumatran badiks can not be published in this special keris forum....

(Loedjoe, your name reminds me of a very peculiar name of the original sword of Aceh. A peculiar sword that has a very macho appearance, referred to locally as "loedjoe alang" or Luju Alang. Could see the distinctive shape of its hilt made of buffalo horn, which model is very typical. Aceh, is not only known for its rencong. However Aceh is also known of its sword, especially "Luju Alang". You may find the illustration of Luju Alang in "Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago" by Albert G van Zonneveld)

[Gustav]

However, the old Malay inscriptions have been found there, in Lampung. Yet, many of its languages ​​are not Malayan languages, but Lampungic comprise the group.

Ganjawulung

Dear Pak Ganja,

I also have an interest in this region, about which not so many information is available. So I found your last sentence very interesting; do you meen, there are languages of indigene groups, which do not belong to Malayo-Polynesian branch?

Could you please tell in short about these languages?

Regards,
Gustav

[ganjawulung]

Dear Gustav,

Unfortunately, I am not a linguist, Gustav. However, according to my Lampung origin friend, his research on keris also reach to local sources with KaGaNga texts. He also mentions, genesis original Lampung language spoken by "Ulun Lampung" ​​(indigenous Lampung peope), associated to Skalabrak ....

Ganjawulung

[Gustav]

Dear Pak Ganja,

thank you for taking your time to answer.

Regards,
Gustav

[Jean]

Gosh,

I happen to also have, Lampung carved keris handles. Even more fully carved, and the material is made of old ivory. It's just about the size of a patrem....

Ganjawulung

Pak Ganja,
Very nice hilt indeed! Can you please show us the blade and warangka for reference?
Thanks and regards :)

[Gustav]

Pak Ganja,
Very nice hilt indeed! Can you please show us the blade and warangka for reference?
Thanks and regards :)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11778&highlight=lampung

[ganjawulung]

Dear Gustav and Jean,

Thank you Gustav, to remind my old post. At that time I was still searching for the name of that "Batman-like" hilt. Lately I just know, that people in Southern Sumatra used to call it "Putri Malu" (Shy Princess).

Jean, as in-reposting by Gustav, such that the appearance of my Palembang patrem (my Lampung friend even said it as "lampung patrem"), measuring only 20 cm.

Ganjawulung

[Jean]

Dear Gustav and Jean,

Jean, as in-reposting by Gustav, such that the appearance of my Palembang patrem (my Lampung friend even said it as "lampung patrem"), measuring only 20 cm.

Ganjawulung

Pak Ganja and Gustav,
Thanks for the clearer pic. The blade is very rustic (no pamor, simple shape, ganja iras) as compared to the typical blades from the area. Also the sampir has a different and less elegant shape than the Palembang ones ("rudder" and notch at the back especially).
To my knowledge the standard krisses from Lampung are quite similar to the Palembang ones except the hilt, so are these features specific to one area in Lampung or these krisses made for specific persons? I have another kris patrem (blade 22 cm long) from South Sumatra with a putri malu hilt also but the blade is rather in bahari style.
Best regards

[ganjawulung]

Dear Jean,

I was deliberately not too clean my "Lampung/Palembang" patrem. Because, according to friends - usually a much sought Sumatran keris, was made of pamorless iron. Lucky even if it turns out to be "malela iron", a favorite for this type of Sumatran keris. Keris Panjang of Jambi, for example, it is rare with pamor. Its blade, generally made of greenish gray iron. Also Anak Alang type, which are shorter in size.

Sumatran keris that you show to me, it's a nice keris to me. From the shape of its greneng, seems typical Minang keris. It has slightly different greneng (Sorry, to use the Javanes term, I forgot the Sumatran term....) if you compare with those of Riau, or Jambi kerises. I have an example, the blades of Riau, or Jambi. Note the difference in 'greneng' part....

Ganjawulung

[Jean]

Dear Jean,

Sumatran keris that you show to me, it's a nice keris to me. From the shape of its greneng, seems typical Minang keris. It has slightly different greneng (Sorry, to use the Javanes term, I forgot the Sumatran term....) if you compare with those of Riau, or Jambi kerises. I have an example, the blades of Riau, or Jambi. Note the difference in 'greneng' part....

Ganjawulung

Pak Ganja,
I find your kris very nice, especially the carved JD hilt.
Ouch, a Minang blade with South Sumatra dress?
Thanks and regards

[David]

Other Western authors such as Karsten S. Jensen also attribute this type of hilt to Durga but he refers to Martin Kerner indeed (see book Keris-Griffe/ Museum Rietberg Zurich page 60).
Vanna Ghiringhelli attributes the origin of this hilt to Bengkulu but there may be various types indeed. Anyway let us adopt the name putri malu which seems more adequate!
I agree that the name "Durga hilt" should be retired. With all due respect to Jensen and Kerner, i do not believe either of these gentlemen have ever presented any solid evidence that these hilts were ever meant to represent Durga and continuing to refer to them as such is only a misdirection for any further research and understanding of the form. While this is the first time i have heard the term "putri malu", it does at least seem to be coming from a source(s) within the culture as opposed to without and will probably serve us better, at least for the time being.

[Loedjoe]

Dear ganjawulung

Many thanks for your response. Let us know when you are able to give details of the book - it sounds as though it will be of great interest, and I would also like to add it to my bibliography of Indonesian weapons, eventually.

Loedjoe was chosen as a forum name, from loedjoe alang, simply as one of my favourite types of Sumatran weapon - but very difficult to find examples of it available!

Best wishes, Loedjoe

[ganjawulung]

Dear Loedjoe,

I guess your name is already there must be a relationship with Loedjoe Alang. It's the same. I also really liked Loedjoe Alang, and I'm lucky I got two pieces of loedjoes, both blades without a flaw. And incidentally both wearing different hulu or hilt. The one type of "hulu rumpung" (more simple type), the other one "hulu lunkee rusa" type. Exactly similar with the two examples in the book "Traditional Weapons" of Zonneveld. Unfortunately, I can not upload here ...

Ganjawulung

[Loedjoe]

Dear Ganjawulung

Wonderful that you have two examples of this rare type; I particularly like the "hulu lunkee rusa" one in Van Zonneveld.

Best wishes, Loedjoe

[ganjawulung]

Dear Jean, Gustav, Sajen and Loedjoe,

One more example of a Lampung keris hilt, they commonly refer to as "hulu luday" (luday hilt). Not only on the keris hilt alone, there are ornaments of "luday" or a kind of snake - which, according to Lampung traditional belief - just living only in the deep river bottom. But also be decorated in traditional houses of Lampung poles. It is small serpent, but according to the myth, can turn into a big snake. Some call it, "luday" is the origin of symbolization "local naga" of Sumatra.

Magical creatures "luday" also exist in Palembang keris hilts. At first glance a bird-like figure. But actually it is snake figure. May be differed from the description of the creature's eyes.

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Dear David,

Thank you for the recommendation about the "Putri Malu" hilt. Hopefully not considered to negate the knowledge that has long been believed. I'm just trying to express some new idea I got from the original Lampung and Palembang people I know.

Thank you David,
Ganjawulung

[Loedjoe]

Thank you very much for the new information, both about putri malu, and the hulu luday - very interesting.

[Jean]

Dear Jean, Gustav, Sajen and Loedjoe,

One more example of a Lampung keris hilt, they commonly refer to as "hulu luday" (luday hilt). Not only on the keris hilt alone, there are ornaments of "luday" or a kind of snake - which, according to Lampung traditional belief - just living only in the deep river bottom. But also be decorated in traditional houses of Lampung poles. It is small serpent, but according to the myth, can turn into a big snake. Some call it, "luday" is the origin of symbolization "local naga" of Sumatra.

Magical creatures "luday" also exist in Palembang keris hilts. At first glance a bird-like figure. But actually it is snake figure. May be differed from the description of the creature's eyes.

Ganjawulung

Dear Pak Ganja,
Thank you again for the very interesting and new information from the local sources!
I am frankly surprised to learn that this type of hilt originates from Lampung and not Palembang, especially the specimen on the left which has an identical style of fine & deep carving as the small JD hilts from Palembang? And what about the origin of the variant types shown by Moshah in post #15 and Sajen in posts #27, 28, and 30? I am showing 2 more pieces just for reference.
Best regards

[ganjawulung]

Dear Jean,

Thank you, Jean, for the correction. You are correct, that the "wearing crested" hilt is called "hulu burung", a Palembang hilt. Not "hulu luday" from Lampung or serpent hilt. The non-crested hilt, it is called " hulu luday". I've asked my Palembang friend, and he said the Palembang one is simply called "hulu burung". While it is true that "hulu luday" is Lampung hilt.

The difference that can be observed from the second hilt, in addition to the crested, also in his eyes. That "hulu luday" is more like a serpent's eyes, rather than a bird's eye ....

Once again, thank you for the correction. Hopefully Shahrial Alamshah will add more information on this Palembang and Lampung hilts...

Ganjawulung