Where is this sheat from?

[Sajen]

Can someone tell me from where this sheat originate? Sorry for the poor quality, the pictures are from the seller. And the toe is also not from me! :D

[Rick]

It is too your toe ! :p ;) :D

Sajen, could you flip the first picture so the scabbard faces the other way ? :)

[Sajen]

It is too your toe ! :p ;) :D

Sajen, could you flip the first picture so the scabbard faces the other way ? :)


:D :D Here the mirrored picture. :)

[Rick]

I wonder if this is not a composite keris ; I'm betting most likely it is .

The Madura jejeran; the handle does not line up with the 'thorn' on the wrongko .

I cannot place the scabbard . :o


A picture of the keris; perhaps ? ;)

[Sajen]

I wonder if this is not a composite keris ; I'm betting most likely it is .

The Madura jejeran; the handle does not line up with the 'thorn' on the wrongko .

I cannot place the scabbard . :o

Yes, of course a composite keris and I am also sure that the blade not original to the sheat since the middle of the jejeran not line up with the "Ri cangkring" of the wrongko.

I've bought it because the sheat. Is it maybe a coteng form? :shrug: This is my hope! ;)

The blade is a very poor one, this suggest the picture and seems to be from Java or Madura.

[A. G. Maisey]

Not all keris have always been dressed according to the high standards of late 19th century, through to 21st century connoisseurs.

I have seen a great many keris from various areas that do not follow what current collectors consider to be correct, in that blades are a poor fit in wrongkos, alignment of hilt to wrongko is poor, and in general, the keris have simply been not very neat. However, these keris I have in mind have not been what we think of when we talk of composites, rather, they have been keris that were collected in SE Asia pre-WWII and in some cases, have been genuine old keris held by families in Jawa.

In times past - and for that matter, today also, not every blade is going to have its own individually bespoke wrongko crafted for it. If a near enough fit can be achieved by use of a used wrongko, that is often good enough. Not all people in Jawa now, or in the past, could afford to pay a maker to produce the perfect wrongko for a keris, they would use wrongkos in various stages of completion bought ready made from the market, and finish the fitting themselves.

We're used to see perfection as the benchmark, but in reality, this is a pretty recent phenomenon. People in the past living in rural villages far removed from centers of power did the best they could with what they could get, and this was often very far from perfect.

We should not label a keris as "composite", just because it falls short of perfection in fit and finish.

In respect of this wrongko, I'm inclined to think it might be an old North Coast Jawa one. I have a similar one that has a probably reliable provenance of 19th century Cirebon area.

[Marcokeris]

Also i think the sarong comes from Cirebon area.

[Moshah]

I believe the sheath belongs to tajong / coteng family, from northern Malaysia or southern Thai.

If any of you happen to be in possession of "Spirit of Wood" by Noor, Farish A., turn to page 169 where there are schematic drawing of the sheath of keris tajong. According to the diagram, the carving on crosspiece representing "the third eye of Shiva", the hindu God.

Also, referring to Sajen's post #3 (the mirrored picture), below the right crosspiece is a flat panel called "bahu" (shoulder), which I've only seen in coteng sampir so far. This "bahu" feature is identical to the attached picture of a coteng below, albeit Sajen's was more pronounced.

Therefore I strongly suspect that Sajen has found himself a coteng sheath. And it happen to be a one-piece-construction coteng sheath too (no cross section that i can see from the pic).

I personally think this is a great find, no matter of what keris u might have inside. Cotengs are hard to come by, so it is the right thing not to miss it!

p/s - what do you all meant by "composite keris"?

[Gustav]

I also have seen images where similar sheaths with North-coast Java and Madura hilts are depicted. This sheath form probably have a resemblance with early ladrang forms from Java.

If this sheath is North-coastal, is it rather atypical becouse of no central ridge, or is there a pendok intended? Could we expect such sheath form from Madura?

I am curios how this keris fits the sheath and to see the blade itself. It could be probably not that poor at all when cleaned.

[Sajen]

Thank you all for comment. So we have two opinions from where this sheat comes from, Cirebon or a Coteng from northern Peninsula. This two options have been in my mind whereas I would prefer the second! :) ;)

Would be interesting what our members from Singapore think about. :) ;)

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody! :)


Very interesting discussion.
One mustn't forget that there was a lot of 'cross-pollination' in the archipelago. Looking at it, my feeling is that it could be from anywhere within the Lampoeng-Pariaman-western Java-Pasisir-Madoera area.

If one looks hard enough, one can find one-piece-construction sheaths, even from the Cirebon area. As for the 'shoulder', it's not THAT rare in Cirebon or Madoera pieces (note that in typical Palembang sheaths, the shoulder has become stylised). All depends on the philosophy/motivation of the maranggi/carver. Should one be fortunate enough to have access to REAL collections.... enough said!;)

However, my strongest feeling is for either Cirebon or Banten, leaning more towards the former (only because of its 'coarseness'). Could be TOTALLY WRONG, though! :)

Best,

[Sajen]

Hullo everybody! :)


Very interesting discussion.
One mustn't forget that there was a lot of 'cross-pollination' in the archipelago. Looking at it, my feeling is that it could be from anywhere within the Lampoeng-Pariaman-western Java-Pasisir-Madoera area.

If one looks hard enough, one can find one-piece-construction sheaths, even from the Cirebon area. As for the 'shoulder', it's not THAT rare in Cirebon or Madoera pieces (note that in typical Palembang sheaths, the shoulder has become stylised). All depends on the philosophy/motivation of the maranggi/carver. Should one be fortunate enough to have access to REAL collections.... enough said!;)

However, my strongest feeling is for either Cirebon or Banten, leaning more towards the former (only because of its 'coarseness'). Could be TOTALLY WRONG, though! :)

Best,


Thank you for comment! Agree that you can find iras sheats from Cirebon (see picture). And agree also that it is sometimes very hard to decree the origin of a sheat because the "cross-pollination" in the archipelago special by early forms.

Detlef

[Sajen]

Have you noted the middle rib in up from the sheat in the third picture in #1?
Maybe this will be helpful. :shrug:

[Sajen]

. It could be probably not that poor at all when cleaned.


Hope so! :)

[Moshah]

That middle rib you called, is the "caping" or point, as explained in Spirit of Wood. And you also can see how identical this "caping" as to the coteng's.

It also appears in some aged keris tajong sheath.

The build shape is identical to the cirebonese sample that Sajen had shown, no doubt about it. However the "caping", "shoulder" and the "third eye of Shiva" is all the characteristic of a pattani's origin.

Cross pollination is obviously the reason why it is so identical to both region's design. Let's not forget the empus from pattani also originated from Java / south sumatra.

Of course I might be wrong too. Let's learn from each other :)

[PenangsangII]

Cirebon or Siam?

This thread reaffirm my personal belief that keris culture in Siam (Pattani, Songkhla, Singgora, Naratiwat etc...) could have been brought from Jawa, particularly Padjajaran and Cirebon.....

[BluErf]

My 1st impression was that this was a coteng sheath, but after closer inspection, I tend to agree with Alan that this is probably Cirebon/N Coast Jawa. The aesthetics are clearly different. In S. Thailand and N. Malaya where the coteng tajong comes from, the aesthetics is one of 'lanky' proportions. This sheath here is too 'fat', especially at the part where the batang joins to the sampir. Also, the sampir of a coteng tend to have 'boxier' feel, not straight rectangular, but having a deeper trough. Yes, seeing all thses sheaths and the Raja Mala hilt makes one want to think of the origin of the tajong and coteng as N Coast of Jawa.

[Moshah]

Cirebon or Siam?

This thread reaffirm my personal belief that keris culture in Siam (Pattani, Songkhla, Singgora, Naratiwat etc...) could have been brought from Jawa, particularly Padjajaran and Cirebon.....

Salams,

I personally think you are right about that belief. Can see the traces of java influences in peninsular keris culture. As for here, the cirebonese wronko is also hold some resemblances to coteng's sampir.

By looking at the picture, the "caping" bears more percentage of similarities to the coteng sheath. Maybe a clearer picture from Sajen's crosspiece could be placed next to the coteng pix and to the cirebon iras example, where we can see clearly the similarities and differences, spot on.

The carving on the crosspiece, IMHO tries to emulate the "third eye of shiva". However, I am not sure whether Cirebonese sampir could have this kind of carving. Or perhaps the carving comes later, for some purposes. There are possibilities.

[Gustav]

In case of "composite" keris: the strangest photo ever I have seen, taken before 1920 probably in Aceh. Mendak-Selut are very close to ones on pompous Gowa keris (with hilts depicting Bhima(?) in lalitasana), hilts are looking like Banjarmasin. I remember to have seen a specimen very much like the left side sheath with a Madura hilt.
It seems, the left side keris have seen some practical use :cool: .Pesi is the week point and is getting bent easily (according to english sailor tales about adventures in Singapore :D )

[Sajen]

Sampir comparison.

[Gustav]

This sheath question is, of course, nothing new (something really worth to read: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2007&highlight=coteng+sheath). As every question, it is a possibility to show opinions, wishes and standfastness in holding and proclaiming opinions.

"The build shape is identical to the cirebonese sample that Sajen had shown, no doubt about it. However the "caping", "shoulder" and the "third eye of Shiva" is all the characteristic of a pattani's origin."

Dear Moshah,

however, in this case I probably have something to learn. At first, I wasn't aware, this second example of Sajen is a typical Cirebon sheath. If so, could you enlighten me, what are the typical characteristics of a Cirebonese sheath?

What you call "caping", "shoulder" and "the third eye of Shiva" - I really wouldn't know these are characteristics found only on a sheath from Pattani. It seems, I have greatly undervalued the importance of this region in keris culture till now.

[Sajen]

Hello Gustav,

look this both threads respective sheaths from Cirebon:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7839&highlight=cirebon

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8391&highlight=cirebon

Regards,

Detlef

[Moshah]

Dear Moshah,

however, in this case I probably have something to learn. At first, I wasn't aware, this second example of Sajen is a typical Cirebon sheath. If so, could you enlighten me, what are the typical characteristics of a Cirebonese sheath?

What you call "caping", "shoulder" and "the third eye of Shiva" - I really wouldn't know these are characteristics found only on a sheath from Pattani. It seems, I have greatly undervalued the importance of this region in keris culture till now.

Hi Gustav,

I'm sorry I could not enlighten u about Cirebonese sheath. I never had one, nor I have had one in my hand before. I put forth the differences simply by comparing the sample pictures that Sajen has uploaded, and few others I can see from the links.

From my untrained eyes, you can see that all the cirebonese crosspieces given as example here (either in links given or Sajen's pix), there are something identical at each of the left side of the crosspieces. Sorry I don't know the name of this features, but the feature that I am referring to looks like a cheek line at the left side of the cirebonese crosspiece, where both my coteng and Sajen's new sheath do not possess.

About the features (caping, shoulder & third eye of Shiva), I hope Sajen can scan & upload the Spirit of Wood pg 169, so that we all can see what I mean here.

Also I attach this picture taken from Artzi's sold item page, a coteng, which bear some similarities to Sajen's new sheath. Not 100% identical, right? I would say that the overall shape of Sajen's new sheath looks like it have Cirebonese influences while the features are of Coteng's.

I would also love to learn more about Cirebonese sheath, as much as I would love to own one!

[Gustav]

Moshah,

thank you very much for the explanation.

Do you call "cheek line" feature visible also here? : http://keris.fotopic.net/p56874076.html

[Moshah]

Hi Gustav,

Yes it was in that picture.

Sorry "cheek line" is not a proper term for it. I dunno what u called it, but what i meant is the line from upper crosspiece to lower, where the line is in between a "/" and a "k" in the watermark "http://keris.fotopic.net"

[Gustav]

Then this feature would appear also on a Cirebon wrongko?

[Moshah]

What I meant is that this feature appears on cirebonese wronko, even it is on the cirebonese sample pix that Sajen had posted.

But both the coteng keris pix samples that I have uploaded, plus Sajen's new sheath, do not possess this feature.

[Gustav]

Ok, I was getting disoriented by your Oriental Arms picture, where the left side is the right side. I ment the ridge at the bottom of wrongko on other side.

[A. G. Maisey]

It seems to me that this question is going in circles.

I believe we all recognise that Kai Wee has some experience of Peninsula keris, and he seems to think that this wrongko is not Peninsula.

The rest of us, including myself, are only offering suggestions with no real knowledge or evidence to back those suggestions.

One regular contributor to discussions here , who does know something of the Cirebon area, is Ganja Wulung.

I feel that at this point in this discussion his opinion on this matter would be highly valued.

Come on Pak Ganja, float an informed opinion, so that we can put all our uninformed opinions to one side.

[ganjawulung]

Thanks Alan,

Honestly, I am not so sure which style of warangka it is. But IMHO, it is not Cirebon style (for comparison, images #1 below, are Cirebon style warangkas). Or we might compare it to Tegal warangka? (Image # 2 below)'

It would do much help, if Detlef would take picture from above. To see the upper form (the "daunan") of the warangka..

GANJAWULUNG

[Sajen]

Pak Ganja I will do it when I received the keris. I am very curious to know what I have bought so I will do all to get answers. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for that Pak Ganja.

Not a lot of similarity there, is there?

I reckon we're back to square one.

[Sajen]

Hi Gustav,

Yes it was in that picture.

Sorry "cheek line" is not a proper term for it. I dunno what u called it, but what i meant is the line from upper crosspiece to lower, where the line is in between a "/" and a "k" in the watermark "http://keris.fotopic.net"


It's called "lata" so far I know.

[Sajen]

Thanks for that Pak Ganja.

Not a lot of similarity there, is there?

I reckon we're back to square one.

It seems like this. The best will be to wait until I receive the keris and I can take some better pictures.

Thank's to all for this interesting discussion.

Detlef

[Sajen]

About the features (caping, shoulder & third eye of Shiva), I hope Sajen can scan & upload the Spirit of Wood pg 169, so that we all can see what I mean here.


I have taken a picture and I think that it is clear enough.

[Moshah]

Sorry for the pix orientation, pak Ganja. I just uploaded it straight from Artzi's.

It would not do us any harm if the wronko is Cirebonese or Coteng's. Pak Ganja has given good points in determining Cirebonese sheath. That is his area of expertise.

Coteng has never been an area of my expertise, nor that I am an expert. Also my lack of Cirebonese example and knowledge would also holds me no valid ground to express my point.

Aesthetic asides, I only see as what I stand from the points that I mentioned (bahu, caping, shiva 3rd eye). From Sajen's scanned pix of Spirit of Woods, it is easy to see why I think that way.

Of course I would not know about the bangunan, development of the wronko etc. If pak Ganja or any expert can elaborate on that, that would be a feast for me, as I can learn some more.

[Gustav]

Dear Moshah,

the features similar to Bahu, Caping and Mata Ketiga Siva are found on other keris sheath then coteng's.
Bahu (if it means the small ridge at the bottom og gonjo and not simply Pidakan) is visible on the Cirebonese (?) sheath from Hidayat's page (oncemore http://keris.fotopic.net/p56874076.html), Caping is similar to a common feature called Ri Cangkring, features related to Mata Ketiga Siva are Wideng on Javanese and Mata Ideng & Alis Pandji on Balinese sheaths.
The point is indeed, Sajen's sheath has no Loto or Pejetan and Wideng are very extensive.

The pictures are a keris from Banten (?) and Cirebon (?).

[Sajen]

Today I received the keris and this sheath is a real mystery for me. It's carved from a very lightweight wood and not very fine executed but definitively with a good age. There are unfortunately two old repairs. The carvings are not symmetric. The width down from the Tampingan are 30 mm (1,18 inch).
Here some first pictures:

[DAHenkel]

That sheath is definitely 100% Pattani so it looks like you have gotten yourself a composite piece with a (likely) Madura blade and hilt.

This thread though raises the very relevant connection between the North Coast of Java and the origins of the keris in the Northeast Peninsula. There is definitely a strong connection - all you have to do is scan through Karsten Jensen's book. The familial relationship is sometimes striking!

Now Detlef, all you gotta do is keep your eyes peeled for an early Pattani blade and a bangsa agung or earlier style coteng hilt. ;)

[ganjawulung]

For comparison,

Side view of two Cirebon warangkas, and upper view of them. Gustav post #37, IMHO is clearly images of Banten warangka...

GANJAWULUNG

[Gustav]

For comparison,

Side view of two Cirebon warangkas, and upper view of them. Gustav post #37, IMHO is clearly images of Banten warangka...

GANJAWULUNG

Dear Ganjawulung,

I am fully aware the top picture in my post #37 would be regarded by most people as Wrongko from Banten, as I already stated. However on Jensen's Krisdisk Chapter 4, page 6 an almost identical Wrongko is atributed to Tegal/Cirebon.

A very similar Wrongko to that in the second picture in the post #37 is attributed to Cirebon by Hidayat.

The Wrongko on the wright side picture in your post #30 would be attributed to Tegal by the most people.

I suppose, there are a lot of opinions and guesses about the provenience of different Wrongko forms before the beginning of 18. cent. (particularly old Ladrang forms) and no absolute clarity. I suppose also, this clarity is inexistent and so impossibly to reach.

[BluErf]

That sheath is definitely 100% Pattani so it looks like you have gotten yourself a composite piece with a (likely) Madura blade and hilt.

This thread though raises the very relevant connection between the North Coast of Java and the origins of the keris in the Northeast Peninsula. There is definitely a strong connection - all you have to do is scan through Karsten Jensen's book. The familial relationship is sometimes striking!

Now Detlef, all you gotta do is keep your eyes peeled for an early Pattani blade and a bangsa agung or earlier style coteng hilt. ;)

What traits make this a Pattani sheath? We don't see any coteng sheaths like this anywhere else.

[ganjawulung]

I am fully aware the top picture in my post #37 would be regarded by most people as Wrongko from Banten, as I already stated. However on Jensen's Krisdisk Chapter 4, page 6 an almost identical Wrongko is atributed to Tegal/Cirebon.

A very similar Wrongko to that in the second picture in the post #37 is attributed to Cirebon by Hidayat.

The Wrongko on the wright side picture in your post #30 would be attributed to Tegal by the most people.

I suppose, there are a lot of opinions and guesses about the provenience of different Wrongko forms before the beginning of 18. cent. (particularly old Ladrang forms) and no absolute clarity. I suppose also, this clarity is inexistent and so impossibly to reach.
So Gustav,

I just follow the example from the Museum Gajah (The National Museum) of Jakarta. It was displayed some keris Banten like images below. You may compare yourself the picture..

The third picture, is an example of Tegal warangka with "rajamala" hilt

GANJAWULUNG

[Gustav]

Dear Ganjawulung,

in my post #37 I wrote : The pictures are keris from Banten (?) and Cirebon (?).

I never said, the sheath in question isn't from Banten, more the opposite is the case.

I think, there is no need to point out, which from them possibly is from Banten, after the pictures in your previous post.

The use of interrogation marks in my post wasn't there, becouse I would like them so much. Using them I would like just to show, there could be many opinions (which, of course, are not equally good founded) regarding the provenienence of the sheaths in these pictures.

[Sajen]

Hello all,

like I mentioned in my post #38 this sheat is still a great mystery for my person since my handled Pattani keris is very marginal. So my "knowledge" is taken from pictures in books and from the forum as well from other online pages. And all sheaths I have seen there have been worked in good or very good skill. But this sheath isn't executed with a good skill. I will show you what I mean in pictures separate. A second point is the used wood, it's a very light wood with a unremarkable grain and from blonde natural colour. The weight is 99 gram. :eek:
Besides from this there are two repairs. The front leaf of sampir is missing and replaced from some sort of body filler. And the badly repaired break behind the batang.
Now the comments to the pictures which shows the "mistakes" from the carving. When you look to the pic 6 in post # 38 you can see that the tulang daun are not straight. At the same pic you can see that the caping points are not in direct opposite. The carving of the mata ketiga siva are not very well carved (pic 4 & 5).
But my feeling is like Dave and Moshah mentioned that it is a Pattani sheath, look for example the tips of sampir.
But I am with BluErf, which traits let it be a Pattani sheat?

Best regards,

Detlef

[max]

The same wrangka,

Sorry I am new to the forum and had some difficulties with the pictures. I had to adjust them so the fit the forum size. I have this wrangka for a long time. I bought the keris in the past from an englisch seller. As you can see, the tips are broken off. Nice from this forum now I have a pretty good idea how it schould look like with the tipp !!!

[Rick]

Do you have a picture to show us Max ? :)

[Sajen]

The question is if it is possible to have a sheath from Pattani with such a light wood and not exactly carvings? All other sheaths I have seen from there have had better carvings and other wood, i.e. more hard wood.

[Gustav]

Sajen, Max have put pictures of the sheath in he's old post.

Here a picture from a museum in Venice:

[Sajen]

The same wrangka,

Sorry I am new to the forum and had some difficulties with the pictures. I had to adjust them so the fit the forum size. I have this wrangka for a long time. I bought the keris in the past from an englisch seller. As you can see, the tips are broken off. Nice from this forum now I have a pretty good idea how it schould look like with the tipp !!!

Hello Max,

first of all welcome to the forum.

Your sheath look indeed very similar apart from the missing tips. Please can you tell us if the sheat is also from light wood, i.e. balsa wood? And a picture from the blade if you don't mind?

I am planning to restore the sheat since it is ugly painted and the break good visible.

Best regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Sajen, Max have put pictures of the sheath in he's old post.

Here a picture from a museum in Venice:

Hello Gustav,

the sheath from Max is very similar. My guess or better hope was from beginning that it is a Pattani sheat (look #5 same thread).

Best regards,

Detlef

[max]

Hello Max,

first of all welcome to the forum.

Your sheath look indeed very similar apart from the missing tips. Please can you tell us if the sheat is also from light wood, i.e. balsa wood? And a picture from the blade if you don't mind?

I am planning to restore the sheat since it is ugly painted and the break good visible.

Best regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,

The sheath is indeed of light wood, I think is the same wood they use for your sheath. It has the same structure and same glance, although pictures always difference a little bit from the realty. But I recognice it as very identical. I have given it some though too, to led the sheath restored. But it never came so far. maybay now its a good time. You give me some good ideas about the missing tipps. I think its at least worth it !!! Here are the pics you aksed for.

[tunggulametung]

Hello all,

This could be originate anywhere within Nusantara, we know too little about the past. Maybe even Madura own these style in the past, we never know. But then the style develop very well in Pattani (north to Malaysia ;)) and in my opinion achieve its highest form there.
Attached are similar styles for comparison.

[Sajen]

Hello Detlef,

The sheath is indeed of light wood, I think is the same wood they use for your sheath. It has the same structure and same glance, although pictures always difference a little bit from the realty. But I recognice it as very identical. I have given it some though too, to led the sheath restored. But it never came so far. maybay now its a good time. You give me some good ideas about the missing tipps. I think its at least worth it !!! Here are the pics you aksed for.

Hello Max,

thank's for the additional pictures. Agree that the sheaths are very similar. The blade seems not original to the sheat alike by my assemble.

Best regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Hello all,

This could be originate anywhere within Nusantara, we know too little about the past. Maybe even Madura own these style in the past, we never know. But then the style develop very well in Pattani (north to Malaysia ;)) and in my opinion achieve its highest form there.
Attached are similar styles for comparison.

Hello Pak Chandra,

nice to have you back here and thank's for the pictures!

Detlef

[Moshah]

Hi...

Wow we are still very much in the discussion?

If you all aware, we can see that the "third eye of shiva" differs from Sajen's sheath, the coteng's sheath and the Spirit of wood book.

Hopefully someone familiar with this area should point us what and how is "the third eye of shiva" supposed to be.

[BluErf]

What traits make this a Pattani sheath? We don't see any coteng sheaths like this anywhere else.

To answer my own question, Dave and I just came across this picture of 1 very old coteng in our friend, Paul De Souza's collection, which was collected in Thailand (Bangkok). This more or less shows that Detlef's keris is a very early coteng form.

[max]

As you can see, my sheath as several small superfacial holls. One is still filled with. Tin ?? Or lead ?? Its only on the front side of the wrangka. I always asked myself of there was a perticuliar meaning for this. Because we are going so deep in this wrangka, maybay someone have some ideas or suggestions. I am not familair with this fenomen in java.

[Sajen]

To answer my own question, Dave and I just came across this picture of 1 very old coteng in our friend, Paul De Souza's collection, which was collected in Thailand (Bangkok). This more or less shows that Detlef's keris is a very early coteng form.


Hello Kai Wee,

thank you for clarify the origin of my sheat. This answer also the question from Moshah about the third eye of shiva since it look on Paul de Souza's sheath very similar.
One question: is the nose from the hilt by Paul de Souza's keris old broken or is the hilt still complete?

Now it is like Dave write in #39, all I need is a Pattani blade and a fitting hilt.

[Sajen]

As you can see, my sheath as several small superfacial holls. One is still filled with. Tin ?? Or lead ?? Its only on the front side of the wrangka. I always asked myself of there was a perticuliar meaning for this. Because we are going so deep in this wrangka, maybay someone have some ideas or suggestions. I am not familair with this fenomen in java.

Maybe someone tried to fill the holes with body filler?

[BluErf]

Hello Kai Wee,

thank you for clarify the origin of my sheat. This answer also the question from Moshah about the third eye of shiva since it look on Paul de Souza's sheath very similar.
One question: is the nose from the hilt by Paul de Souza's keris old broken or is the hilt still complete?

Now it is like Dave write in #39, all I need is a Pattani blade and a fitting hilt.

The hilt has a broken nose, so we can only imagine what it looks like complete. The nose probably would not be as long as latter-day coteng hilts, or it would look aesthetically funny, imho.

[Sajen]

The hilt has a broken nose, so we can only imagine what it looks like complete. The nose probably would not be as long as latter-day coteng hilts, or it would look aesthetically funny, imho.

Anyway, it's a very exceptional hilt. Thank you for showing.

[Moshah]

Well detlef you already start searching for the blade, aren't you? :)

Some people say coteng will fit best with Chenok blade. I only know that the name is taken from the village in southern Thai, and supposedly it is the oldest blade ever made in Pattani keris range.

Do anybody know about this kind of blade? How it looks like?

[Sajen]

Well detlef you already start searching for the blade, aren't you? :)




Yes, I keep my eyes open but at first I want to restore the sheat and i am very unsure if I shall replace the broken tip with wood or let it like this.

What is your opinion?

Regards,

Detlef

[Moshah]

Yes, I keep my eyes open but at first I want to restore the sheat and i am very unsure if I shall replace the broken tip with wood or let it like this.

What is your opinion?

Regards,

Detlef

With slightest knowledge of woodwork myself, I can offer you no professional advice. But if you gonna remade the broken tip personally I think it's going to be a nice sight to the eye.

As for me, I tried my best to be puritans by trying not to meddle with minor damages.

[Sajen]

I found recently this blade and I think it's a Peninsula blade. Unfortunately is the kembang kacang broken but apart from this it's a very nice one in my eyes and it fit nearly perfect inside the sheath without any woodwork.
What do you think, will it be a good blade to complete my Coteng sheath?

Thank you very much in advance,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, I cannot answer this question with any claim to certainty, I'll leave that to somebody else with more knowledge in this specific field --- rather suspect it would be incorrect, but I do not know the acceptable variations.

However, here are some images of a blade that has suffered the same, or similar, damage as has yours, and the repair that was carried out in the place of origin.

[Sajen]

Hallo Alan, at my blade tried someone also to repair the kembang kacang or it was repaired and broke again.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, it looks as if a similar repair may have been carried out, and has since failed.

I guess you could always do it again if you wished.

[Sajen]

Yes, it looks as if a similar repair may have been carried out, and has since failed.

I guess you could always do it again if you wished.

But how? I have never handled a blade with a repair like this so I am clueless.
:shrug:

[A. G. Maisey]

Neither have I, but if you look carefully at both the repair that has failed on your blade, and the repair that is still in place on my blade, I'm sure you will see how it has been done.

You know what they say:- a picture is worth 1000 words.

We have two pictures here, and I think it would take maybe 2000 words to explain in detail how this was done.

Just spend the time and look carefully. You'll work it out.

[Laowang]

Detlef, I cannot answer this question with any claim to certainty, I'll leave that to somebody else with more knowledge in this specific field --- rather suspect it would be incorrect, but I do not know the acceptable variations.

However, here are some images of a blade that has suffered the same, or similar, damage as has yours, and the repair that was carried out in the place of origin.

Thank you for sharing this blade, Alan. I find it remarkable. There is a frankness and a practicality to the method of repair that is quite compelling in its own aesthetic right. I'm reminded of an image of a jawa demam hilt where the broken beak had been replaced with a metal one (with visible pin joints), although I cannot recall where I saw the image now.

[Alam Shah]

Does anyone have any idea where does this keris originated from, especially the sheath?

[David]

Does anyone have any idea where does this keris originated from, especially the sheath?
That is sweet....and unusual.
Based on nothing but instinct i'm going to suggest Sumatra, but what part i am uncertain...
of course some closer photos wouldn't hurt... :)

[BluErf]

Whoa, the sheath almost looks like some sort of axe. Sharp! This looks contemporary and could come from anywhere, though the intention seems to be Straits-style keris. :)

[Alam Shah]

Whoa, the sheath almost looks like some sort of axe. Sharp! This looks contemporary and could come from anywhere, though the intention seems to be Straits-style keris. :)This piece, belongs to a friend up north.. I was told that the crosspiece is made from ivory and the piece is from Nias.. I doubt that it's from Nias.. there's a remote mixture of tajong and minang on the upper crosspiece curl.. I'm thinking that the ivory might be stained to look older..
I do have my doubts on the authenticity of this piece..

[Sajen]

This piece, belongs to a friend up north.. I was told that the crosspiece is made from ivory and the piece is from Nias.. I doubt that it's from Nias.. there's a remote mixture of tajong and minang on the upper crosspiece curl.. I'm thinking that the ivory might be stained to look older..
I do have my doubts on the authenticity of this piece..


Yes, the sheath remind me to the small Minang keris but special the buntut and the blade let have me also some doubts if this is an authentc piece. But when it's old it is an outstanding piece. :shrug:

[David]

Yes, it is that minang flavor that had me thinking Sumatra.
Now when it comes to "authentic" i think we need to define our terms. I would like to think that in some respects the keris arts are still active and evolving. If this sheath were to be presented as an old and classic form we might be right to question it's "authenticity". However, if it is recognized as a new sheath form i would have to say that it seems a beautiful and well executed expression of contemporary keris arts and in that it would be quite "authentic". :)
The blade, of course, is another matter...

[Alam Shah]

Yes, it is that minang flavor that had me thinking Sumatra.
Now when it comes to "authentic" i think we need to define our terms. I would like to think that in some respects the keris arts are still active and evolving. If this sheath were to be presented as an old and classic form we might be right to question it's "authenticity". However, if it is recognized as a new sheath form i would have to say that it seems a beautiful and well executed expression of contemporary keris arts and in that it would be quite "authentic". Allow me to define it further.. it was presented as an old authentic piece from Nias.. with supposedly age cracked ivory with patina.. Afaik, Nias does not have a keris culture, although to some extent, imported keris blades were used within certain Nias communities. ;)

If the sheath is presented as a new contemporary or a re-worked item, I'm ok with that too.. but if modified and indicated as old, now that's a different story..

[Sajen]

Allow me to define it further.. it was presented as an old authentic piece from Nias.. with supposedly age cracked ivory with patina.. Afaik, Nias does not have a keris culture, although to some extent, imported keris blades were used within certain Nias communities. ;)

Does the ivory have age crack's? Wrong description (here Nias) is very common.

[Alam Shah]

Does the ivory have age crack's? Wrong description (here Nias) is very common.I've not seen the piece in hand.. based on the single picture presented.. if you look at the shaft, there seems to be a long crack along the line to one side.. that's what I mean..
:)

[Sajen]

The long crack I've seen but this is not exactly what I understand under age crack.

[David]

Allow me to define it further.. it was presented as an old authentic piece from Nias.. with supposedly age cracked ivory with patina.. Afaik, Nias does not have a keris culture, although to some extent, imported keris blades were used within certain Nias communities. ;)

If the sheath is presented as a new contemporary or a re-worked item, I'm ok with that too.. but if modified and indicated as old, now that's a different story..
Thanks for the clarification Shahrial. If presented as such i too would question "authenticity". We have been around the block a little bit on the search for a true Nias keris. I see a little bit of Nias influence in the sheath's profile, but also have a hard time excepting this as an authentic Nias keris. I can't see the blade very well in the pics, but would be more likely to place it's origins in contemporary Madura.

[Sajen]

BTW, I have got an old Coteng hilt (together with a keris) for my sheath.

Look here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=190458965205&si=ENsRd7mkc4gNUieBlEDydpZZtCk%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT

And here the pictures from the well known seller. :) ;)

[A. G. Maisey]

Sajen, this comment is not specifically directed at the hilt you have purchased, however, I've had a look at the items this seller lists for sale, and I was wondering exactly what sort of time span permits the description "old".

+100 years?

+ 50 years?

+ 20 years?

+ 5 years?

+ 12 months?

+24 hours?

Anybody have any ideas on what length of time makes "old" an acceptable description?

[David]

Sajen, this comment is not specifically directed at the hilt you have purchased, however, I've had a look at the items this seller lists for sale, and I was wondering exactly what sort of time span permits the description "old".
I read that you are not directing your comment specifically at this hilt, but given it's placement do you have reason to believe that this hilt does not have any significant age?

[A. G. Maisey]

In respect of Sajen's hilt, I do not know, because I cannot see it clearly enough.

What generated my question was the the other "old" items I have seen on this site, which are not necessarily keris related.

The comment is not about Sajen's hilt, it is about the concept of old.

A few months ago a friend bought an "old" keris hilt from an ebay seller in Queensland. He showed it to me and asked my opinion. It was about as old as last weekend's Sydney Morning Herald.

When he queried the description of "old" with the seller he was told it was most certainly old, in that it was no longer "new" --- whatever that might mean.

So now I'm asking for opinions on what we might think "old" means.

[David]

In regards to keris i wouldn't refer to anything that isn't at least pre-WW2 as "old", though that certainly isn't "really old".
In common practice something isn't considered "antique" until it is at least 100 years old, but i think it is fair to use the term old for items that don't quite qualify for "antique". :shrug:

[Rick]

I'd accept 80 yrs as old ; antique is another matter; must be 100 yrs old .

[BluErf]

Good question on what is considered old. I'd go with 50-100yrs = vintage, 100yrs+ = antique. As for old, I realized even I use it loosely such that it could mean anything 20yrs or older. I'd consider <20yrs contemporary.

[BluErf]

BTW, I have got an old Coteng hilt (together with a keris) for my sheath.

Look here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=190458965205&si=ENsRd7mkc4gNUieBlEDydpZZtCk%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT

And here the pictures from the well known seller. :) ;)

Nice blade! It deserves a proper dress. Try to get one commissioned in N. Malaysia! :)

[Sajen]

Sajen, this comment is not specifically directed at the hilt you have purchased, however, I've had a look at the items this seller lists for sale, and I was wondering exactly what sort of time span permits the description "old".

+100 years?

+ 50 years?

+ 20 years?

+ 5 years?

+ 12 months?

+24 hours?

Anybody have any ideas on what length of time makes "old" an acceptable description?


Alan, I read a little bit in some pages at the net to get some informations. Antique is on the most pages described by an age fom 100 years + but also for example by furniture of Art Deco periode which can't be old like this.
Since antique is old in latin language and you want to take it by the word have to be "old" more than 100 years old.
But when you look to other items which are collected by people and often described as "old" you can't use this parameter.
I am with Kai Wee by this, twenty years can be "old".
I have had a look again to the sold items from this seller and I think that most of the items are described as old are more than 50 years old. But I have to say that I can be wrong by this since the pictures are not very clear.

[David]

I am with Kai Wee by this, twenty years can be "old".
I think that we need to discuss this question in regards to keris, not furniture or for that matter the moldy "old" tub of hummus sitting in the back of the fridge. :)
I don't think i would ever refer to a 20 year old keris as "old". I would probably call it "contemporary".
I would also like to remind everyone that Alan's question is an independent one, not based on this seller's eBay list. Let's keep the seller out of the conversation please. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I'm afraid that I am compelled to mention the seller again.

My original post where I mentioned the seller's other items was out of order.

I apologise unreservedly for this.

I was and am unaware of the seller's identity, and when I went to ebay and clicked "sellers other items" I got a list of items that I have since found were not related in any way to the seller of Sajen's hilt.

However, although this ebay glitch did cause an error in the wording of my original post, I do consider the question I raised a valid one, but in no way related to Sajen's hilt, nor to the seller of it.

[David]

David, I'm afraid that I am compelled to mention the seller again.

My original post where I mentioned the seller's other items was out of order.

I apologise unreservedly for this.

I was and am unaware of the seller's identity, and when I went to ebay and clicked "sellers other items" I got a list of items that I have since found were not related in any way to the seller of Sajen's hilt.

However, although this ebay glitch did cause an error in the wording of my original post, I do consider the question I raised a valid one, but in no way related to Sajen's hilt, nor to the seller of it.
Agreed Alan. Good topic for discussion. Let's continue... :)

[Sajen]

Nice blade! It deserves a proper dress. Try to get one commissioned in N. Malaysia! :)

Hallo Kai Wee, do you think that the dress which coming with the blade isn't a proper dress as well?
And what you think about the Coteng hilt?

[Sajen]

I think that we need to discuss this question in regards to keris, not furniture or for that matter the moldy "old" tub of hummus sitting in the back of the fridge. :)
I don't think i would ever refer to a 20 year old keris as "old". I would probably call it "contemporary".
I would also like to remind everyone that Alan's question is an independent one, not based on this seller's eBay list. Let's keep the seller out of the conversation please. :)


Agree complete with you that a twenty years "old" keris is a contemporary keris. What I want to say with my previous post is that it can be a matter of opinion and the item by it's own what is declared as "old" or "antique".
And again in regards to keris I would say that it is ok to declare a 50 years old keris as old or older.

[David]

Hallo Kai Wee, do you think that the dress which coming with the blade isn't a proper dress as well?
And what you think about the Coteng hilt?
Not Kai Wee of course ;) but i would say that the sheath that came with this most certainly is not correct and that the pendokok also needs replacing as it is the wrong form and too large for the hilt.
Hopefully when you recieve this you can post some better photos of the hilt and blade. The Coteng hilt appears authentic and of some age (whatever that means :rolleyes: ;) :D ), but the photos are really poor and making any real assessments here is difficult.

[Sajen]

Not Kai Wee of course ;) but i would say that the sheath that came with this most certainly is not correct and that the pendokok also needs replacing as it is the wrong form and too large for the hilt.
Hopefully when you recieve this you can post some better photos of the hilt and blade. The Coteng hilt appears authentic and of some age (whatever that means :rolleyes: ;) :D ), but the photos are really poor and making any real assessments here is difficult.


Every comment is welcome! ;) That the pendokok isn't the correct form is clearly to seen. But you are right, let us wait until I have received the keris and I can take some pictures from the hilt and also pictures how the blade fit inside the sheath. But I am hopeful that all parts are with good age and to my eyes it seems that all parts are from Peninsula.

[Alam Shah]

Hallo Kai Wee, do you think that the dress which coming with the blade isn't a proper dress as well?
And what you think about the Coteng hilt?The dress is not appropriate for the hilt or blade.. The blade looks Pattani to me.. a nice blade indeed, (a pity I couldn't get it myself). The blade deserves new fittings in classic Pattani form. A 'tebeng' sheath with a Pekaka hilt would look appropriate. The hilt ring can be reused with the new hilt. The nice Coteng hilt can sit by itself on a hilt stand, if there's nothing matching for it.. The Malay Bugis sheath, you could try with your Malay Bugis (Terengganu) blade.. the one with the broken kembang kacang.. (just a suggestion). :)

[Sajen]

The dress is not appropriate for the hilt or blade.. The blade looks Pattani to me.. a nice blade indeed, (a pity I couldn't get it myself). The blade deserves new fittings in classic Pattani form. A 'tebeng' sheath with a Pekaka hilt would look appropriate. The hilt ring can be reused with the new hilt. The nice Coteng hilt can sit by itself on a hilt stand, if there's nothing matching for it.. The Malay Bugis sheath, you could try with your Malay Bugis (Terengganu) blade.. the one with the broken kembang kacang.. (just a suggestion). :)

Alam, thank you very much for your comment. Blade look Pattani to me also but I have thought that the dress (sheath) is Pattani also. :shrug: Please can show me a example of a tebeng sheath?
The Coteng hilt I want to use together with the Malay Bugis blade (the one with the broken kembang kacang) with my Coteng sheath from #3 in this thread. Do you think that this is matching?
Thank you again and best regards,

Detlef

[Alam Shah]

.. Please can show me a example of a tebeng sheath?
The Coteng hilt I want to use together with the Malay Bugis blade (the one with the broken kembang kacang) with my Coteng sheath from #3 in this thread. Do you think that this is matching?
Thank you again and best regards,

Detlef
Example of a 'tebeng' sheath form..
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=55973&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=99490

The Coteng hilt is not matching with the Malay Bugis blade..
If possible, try to get a 'chenok' type blade.. see attached linked pic.
http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/coteng%20blade.jpg
(Paul De Souza's example)..
Hope it helps.. :D

[Sajen]

Example of a 'tebeng' sheath form..
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=55973&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=99490

The Coteng hilt is not matching with the Malay Bugis blade..
If possible, try to get a 'chenok' type blade.. see attached linked pic.
http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/coteng%20blade.jpg
(Paul De Souza's example)..
Hope it helps.. :D

Puhhhhhhhh, the Malay keris world is very confusing for me! :shrug: :shrug: :o
Special to to differentiate between the Bugis-style sampirs is very very difficult for me, maybe I start a own thread for this since I think that I am not the only confused member.
The blade with the broken kembang kacang coming with a other Malay sheath. But it's apparent that they don't belong together since the blade is to strong/thick for the sampir. I think that this Sampir is a Terengganu style sampir. See pictures.

[Alam Shah]

.. The blade with the broken kembang kacang coming with a other Malay sheath. But it's apparent that they don't belong together since the blade is to strong/thick for the sampir. I think that this Sampir is a Terengganu style sampir. See pictures.Yes, this is a nice Terengganu style sampir, with a missing 'buntut', sheath bottom end-piece. This sheath is also suitable for the blade with the broken kembang kacang (belalai gajah).. just need a hilt and a hilt ring.. :) See sample here, ((link (http://alamshah.fotopic.net/c1281188.html) ))

[Sajen]

Yes, this is a nice Terengganu style sampir, with a missing 'buntut', sheath bottom end-piece. This sheath is also suitable for the blade with the broken kembang kacang (belalai gajah).. just need a hilt and a hilt ring.. :) See sample here, ((link (http://alamshah.fotopic.net/c1281188.html) ))


Hello Alam, I am a little bit pacified since it seems that I have learned here already. Thank you for the nice example you have showed. :)

[Sajen]

I received some days ago the keris with the Coteng hilt. The keris byself I will show later in a seperate thread since I think it's a very outstanding one. Until now it wasn't possible to open the hilt from the blade, I think this will need some days by candlelight! :D
But here some first pictures of the Coteng hilt. After some research here and in Spirit of Wood I think that it is a very old Coteng hilt, for example it's missing the hiasan badan carvings at the sides. It's a very plain example with a straight nose. It seems also that the hilt have get a coat of varnish by time over his old patination.

Please let me know what you think about this hilt. Thank you very much in advance and enjoy the pictures.

[Sajen]

Just want to show the restored sheath.

[Moshah]

Nice work!

Still, the sheath is blade-less until now? That's a three-years' celibacy indeed :shrug:

[Sajen]

Nice work!

Still, the sheath is blade-less until now? That's a three-years' celibacy indeed :shrug:


Yes, still blade-less! :( :mad: Can need three years more! :D

[Sajen]

Finally the keris is completed. The hilt get a bath in benzine to remove the coating from shellac, the nose has had two repairs with wood filler, maybe the reason for the shellac coating. And I have used the Malay blade with the broken kembang kacang since this blade fits nearly perfect the scabbard.

Here some pictures.

[Roland_M]

Hi Detlef,

a beautiful piece, no difference to a 100% original coteng for my eyes.

The blade fits perfect into the scabbard, very nice combination!


I hope, you will find the silver coteng, that you are looking for such a long time in the near future.

I will show my coteng with an old european restauration here until the scabbard is back from the jeweler.


Best wishes,
Roland

[Sajen]

Hi Detlef,

a beautiful piece, no difference to a 100% original coteng for my eyes.

The blade fits perfect into the scabbard, very nice combination!

Hi Roland,

thank you for your kind words! :) I am not really sure if this is a correct blade for a coteng. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

[maxbliss888]

Good efforts after a long time!