Help wanted Identification of Katars

[geneacom]

I am doing some research for my brother, who has no computer.
He is collecting katars for more than 20 years.
We like to find out the meaning of the different inscriptions on his katars.

Thanks in advance
Rob van Willigen,
Amsterdam, the Netherlands

[ariel]

As far as I know, this technical manner of inscriptions usually belongs to Rajastan.
Tell your brother that he owes me a fee for this remarkably informative comment: posting pics of the katars for all of us to see! :D

[Battara]

Most of those inscriptions are arsenal marks?

[geneacom]

Rajastan is a start, now what is the translation?
Although I still don't know what the translation of the inscriptions is, I will ask my brother to make pictures of the katars with inscription.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Like Battara writes, most of the markings, if not all, are arsenal markings. Some is no doubt text, not yet translated as far as I know, and other of the markings are numbers. Markings like that were used at the armoury at Bikaner, about 350 km west south west of Delhi, so Rajasthan is also correct.
Pictures would be apreciated:).

[geneacom]

Since my brother only has made some detail photos of the to publish, I will show them here.
I will try to create a opportunity to make digital pictures

[Jens Nordlunde]

Would it be possible to have pictures of the whole katar, and of the details?

Jens

[geneacom]

As I said in my previous post:
"I will try to create a opportunity to make digital pictures".
I just made the arrangement to make some new photos in this weekend.

In the meantime: I am still interested in what the text and/or figures literally is (translated or original).

[geneacom]

For a better view:
Here are the details again, but now one by one.
I first had some problems posting my pictures, so I just put them all in one picture.
I hope this is better.

[Jens Nordlunde]

The details you show are very good, but tell me does you brother also have a mark like this?

[geneacom]

No, this is all what we found on his katars.

Because I will make new pictures this weekend myself, I will examanie them very closely, to see if I can find something else, that looks like a mark.

There were no inscriptions on the scissor-katar.

[geneacom]

Is it better to make my pictures a bit smaller next time?

[Mark]

Personally, I think the size is fine (I have more problem with wide pictures than long ones, because you have to scroll back and forth in two directions). Also, the size of your pictures is perfect for deciphering writing. :)

[Rick]

The question is has anyone ever deciphered these 'armoury marks' before ?
I can't recall anyone on this forum doing it .

Calling Jim !! :)

[Jens Nordlunde]

It will be interesting to see who else has Indian weapons with arsenal marks. Here is one, also with dot markings, the same kind of markings can also be found on tulwar blades.

Some armouries marked their weapons, others not. The marking itself does not tell much about the weapon, other than it has been in the armoury at one point. The weapons in an armoury can be from many places, like weapons from the armoury in Bikaner, can be from Bikaner, but they can also be from a lot of other places in India, like maybe Orissa. If the Rajput’s had been fighting in Orissa and won, they would have taken the weapons home with them and stored them in the armoury, and the arms would be marked with the armoury mark. A thing which must be remembered is, that the one who marked the weapons, most likely, could neither read nor write, so he had to make the marks after a drawing, maybe made by someone who barely could read and write. After having marked a few hundred, with thousands waiting to be marked, it would be natural if his ‘handwriting’ got scamped. This all leads to, that it nowadays is very difficult to read the markings, and only few of the arsenal markings are known to have belonged to certain arsenals.

Hi Rick, not that I know of. The reason, or some of the reason, will be like mentioned above - but maybe some day:).

[Rick]

Well , here's my contribution . :)
Wootz tulwar with an almost straight blade .

[dennee]

And the important thing about such armory marks, like serial numbers on today's military weapons, may be that each was a unique (or perhaps a unique identifier for a whole group or armory?), rather than necessarily having an intrinsic meaning. In other words, even if it represents a series of numerals and/or legible characters, it may not add up to words.

[Tim Simmons]

Yes rather like carpenters and other skilled persons marks from many trades that mean nothing to those not involved. Tim

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Rick,
Thanks for the call!!! :)
I cant really add a lot to what Jens has beautifully explained concerning arsenal and armoury markings, but we have tried to accomplish gathering data on them before, unfortunately there really is very little data.

The Bikaner armoury, which is being discussed here, seems to have the most distinctive and numerous items, characterized by these punch dot script inscriptions. Some other Mughal items seem to have inscriptions that may be arsenal markings with dates or numerics, but these are not catalogued or otherwise collected.

Robert Elgood ("Hindu Arms & Ritual" p.30) describes the Wodeyar Armoury in Mysore, where Krishnaraja Wodeyar III (1799-1868) ordered an inventory and pieces numbered and inscribed in 'kannada' script, naming the object and noting his title, 'Srikishna'.

Hopefully those out there with Indian weapons that have distinct markings might post them here!!

All the best,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Rick,

It is an interesting double marking you have on your tulwar, it is seldom to see double markings on weapons. It could be an owner’s name, and an armoury mark added later, or it could be two different armoury markings – but this is only speculation so far.

Hi Jim,

Your quotation of Elgood is very good, as it is very seldom to find a quotation like that.
One thing I forgot to mention earlier is, that besides a number, the text can give the name of the owner of the armoury or the name of the armoury itself, but in most cases it is likely that the text has been abbreviated, which makes it very difficult if not impossible to be sure from which armoury the weapons came, as we now only know of some of the armouries – armouries closed for many years are long forgotten, although we may find weapons marked in one of these places. We must also remember that many different languages were/are spoken in India, and to be able to read the text, you will have to know the language it is written in.

[geneacom]

hello everyone,
I made new digital pictures of my brothers' katars and some extra ones.
One of the extra is a very large katar and the other one is a very old one, I think.
Right now I am preparing the pictures for publishing here.
So keep watching ...

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jens,
You're right, it is remarkably difficult to try to read or decipher armoury or arsenal markings because of the varying dialects and alphabetics. Even more confounding is the fact that such markings are typically the result of often reluctant bureaucratic tediom, inventorying. I cannot think of anyone who ever looked forward to 'inventory'! Thus the result of diminishing accuracy and omissions etc. The abbreviations and numbers can only have made sense to those directly involved in that particular armory and period. There was no standardization or system employed outside that armory and by others.

I recall some time ago trying to discover the meaning of such a marking on a Chinese sabre, which was apparantly inscribed in Manchu. Hoping for some meaningful, telling mark I pursued having it translated, not easily done as this is apparantly elusive these days in Chinese linguistics. When finally it was done all that could be determined was a vague interpretation of 'tempered steel' or 'good steel' or something of that form.

Even European military weapons are maddening in trying to discover the significance of key placed little letters and numbers and symbols in all manner of places on weapons. With these one is always hoping to find regimental attribution, but with such markings there is the one constant...inconsistancy!

Looking forward to seeing these next photos Geneacom!!!

All the best,
Jim

[geneacom]

Well, here's something coming.

[geneacom]

This is a large one, the ruler is 30 cm long!

[geneacom]

Here is my special piece, the one I like the most.
More detailphotos following soon ...

[geneacom]

here are some additional (detail) pictures of the small katar.

[geneacom]

Katar with text on 2 sides

[geneacom]

The last week I have published 4 photosets of katars from different viewpoints.
That's what everybody was asking for.
Up until now, not a single reaction.
Nobody interested anymore?
That's a pity, because I have another 25 katars waiting to be photographed.

If there is no reaction at all, I wil stop and save myself the trouble of making all these pictures, put them all together and publish them!
Rob van Willigen (Geneacom)

[spiral]

Thanks for your time & effort Rob!

I have found this a fascinating thread, especialy your photos & the discusian re armoury marks.

I am jealous of such a museam quality collection! :D

I would imagine this group of katars is the envy of anyone who collects katars.

Spiral

[Rick]

I think that from reading the discussion Rob no one here knows how to decipher the armory marks . Many legitimate reasons were given for this .
I'm sorry if we seem to have let you down in this respect .
Quite possibly no one has ever made a study of these markings .

The katars are quite beautiful .

[B.I]

the dotted inscriptions are thought to be inventory or shelf marks. this is a loose description, but it has been debated and no better 'guess' has been offered. they are from the bikaner armoury, as others have stated and thought to have been put onto the contents of the armoury at some point in the 19thC.
there is an account from the armourer of bikaner in 1900, discussing the potential origins of some of the pieces and the placement of there marks could have hailed from this time (as it was hinted that this armourer had gone through the collection. either way, the 19thC date comes from the fact that certain 19thC pieces hold the same type of marking, as well has 16thC pieces in the same armoury. the marks were put onto all pieces, whether made in the region or captured at some point in the armouries history. some pieces (like some of your daggers) held more than one set of marks, and some had up to 4. again, this has fed the 'shelf mark' theory, in that when moved, an additional set of marks were put on. personally, i feel this is little thin, but i am happy to believe they are inventory marks of some kind. they cannot be armourers marks (which has been agreed, no matter what else is debated) as these marks were put alongside armourers marks, and were normally poorly done. also, they were put onto pieces that were many hundreds of miles apart in origin, and upto 400 years apart in date.
the marks are normally numbers, and many (maybe even a majority) were preceded with a 'symbol' that was neither a number nor a letter. i have attached a compliation of this symbol found in the pieces on this particular post.
what this symbol is i dont know, but hope to find out at some point in my lifetime. i have been pursuing it for a number of years and have only heard specualtion. the armoury itself (now a series of museums) cant offer any more information. an interesting point is that there did exist a written inventory, which was seen a number fo years ago. this ledger may hold clues, but i'm afraid it will never be seen again, being condemning evidence against the hoard of pieces going missing some 10 years ago (and ultimately ending up in your brothers collection).

the numbers itself could be a number of different languages, but the presence of other dotted inscriptions (other than numbers and this symbol) show the language to be a strange for of devanagri, although different enough to be a possible language in itself.
i have had aome of these longer inscription read, but with no satifactory results.
the problem is that devenagri is a written language only, and whatever form of it this is, seems to have been forgotten many years ago.

inscriptions aside, look again to the very large katar your brother has. the grip bars seem a little mishapen.
this is because they could possibly have been chisselled elephant heads (one on either side - 4 in total) which was a feature shown in some other pieces from the same armoury. yours are very worn, as are the facets of the grip bars but i'm sure this was the original feature.

[Andrew]

Excellent post, Brian. Thank you. :)



Rob, a great wealth of information resides in this forum and its archives. The membership here has a broad base of experience from collecting to research.

However, the study of ethnographic weaponry is often a rather esoteric and exotic pursuit. Poor documentation, extravagent and incredible provenance, colonialistic perspective and language barriers all contribute to the unanswered questions. It was this very lack of reliable information that first attracted me to ethnographic weapons and continues to keep me engaged and intellectually stimulated. While such things as militaria and nihonto have always fascinated me, there are few "mysteries" left to explore in those areas.

These forums are often a good starting place for research and investigation, as well as a place to share knowlege, experience and speculation. I once described the process as "edged weapon free-association" (or something similar). I truly hope you'll stick around and share more with us, despite your obvious disappointment. You may yet find the answers to your questions, or even to questions you've not yet thought of.

Best,
Andrew

[geneacom]

Ridk, Spiral, B.I. and Andrew, thank you very much for your support!
Your very interesting explanations are helping me to better understand the problems.
Since I am completely new and uneducated to this matter, I have learned a lot since I joined this forum.
You reply is giving me the necessary push to go on.
I will start publishing new pictures tonight.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for showing the katars, but as you can see from the different mails, last from Brian’s excellent answer; it is very difficult, if not impossible, at the moment, to come up with something specific about the translation. What we can conclude is, that the katars shown, most likely, have been at the Bikaner armoury at one point or another, but not necessarily were ‘born’ there. If you have read a few books on the Indian history, you will know, that wars were going on all the time, from east to west, and from north to south. Big armies moving around the country all the time, weapons getting mixed, and remixed before they ended in an armoury somewhere, and maybe years later ending up in another armoury after a lost battle.

The thing of interest will therefore be, does the katar fit into the area where the armoury is, or is it likely to be from another area?

As your brother has been collecting for twenty years, I guess that he is likely to have some answers to this.

If you post any more pictures, please help us to a better understanding, by keeping the pictures of the whole weapon and the details together. I have no doubt that you and your brother have no problem seeing the pictures, but it will make it easier for the rest of us who don’t know the weapons.

Jens

[geneacom]

Every day I learn more and more, thanks for all your support and kind help.

Here is the last katar for now.

I have to make new photos next week.
Actually, I started to make pictures only from the 3 katars with text on it plus 2 katars which I like very much (the small one with the ivory knobs and the largest one I could find in my brothers collection).

Enjoy and I'll be back ... :)

[geneacom]

I found a table with the figures 0-9 in different languages.
Maybe this will help? It is an Acrobat PDF-file.

[PUFF]

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/POS/turchFigs/IMG.FIG9.4.GIF
http://www.seaford.k12.ny.us/Sites/Seaford_Web_Site/Middle/math/MS_Math_WebPages/Pictures/Ancient_Mathematicians/Hindu-Arabic.gif
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=5857&stc=1
As far as I know, hindu-arabic scripts could be associated with period and place. You might be able to catagorize your speciments according to their period and place. :D

3-5-8 in figure 12a is a good start :D (hopefully, nothing related to its caliber ) :D

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Puff,

Interesting stuff you are showing, although I doubt very much that many here on the forum have much use for the numbers from 300 BC:p. It does however give the forumites an idea of the difficulty when it comes to inscriptions and dates.

Some dates on weapons were made older than the actual year the weapon was made, some put on later, for decoration together with an inscription or a name, or when entering an armoury, and some were, much later, faked by collectors to improve the value of the collection, so any date on a weapon should be compared with the weapon itself, to see if the date and the style it was made in seems to fit the age of the weapon.

[Lew]

Here is a link to a Bikiner museum with lots of interesting items.


http://www.leyline.org/cgi-bin/photoalbum.pl?category=armories

The link should work now.


Lew

[Jens Nordlunde]

Geneacom,
I was just looking at this old thread, and I have some news.
The katar you show in post 26 is from Bundi.
I have researched these katars, and written an article about them. They are from first half of the 19th ceentury.
Jens

[Edward F]

The dotted markings are Bikaner markings.Most weapons I have seen have two differant dotted markings and some with inscriptions (date or Name)The dotted marks for the most part are sets of numbers lots three,

[Edward F]

The dotted markings are Bikaner markings.Most weapons I have seen have two differant dotted markings and some with inscriptions (date or Name)The dotted marks for the most part are sets of numbers lots three,

Inventory number,maybe the iron worker had a number,Any ones guess?

Most interesting the symbol before the 3 numbers 19b,26a,27a I believe that first symbol found before the 3 numbers can be found on all Bikaner weapons I just don't know what the first symbol means.
19b-225
20a-407
26a-573
27a-217
12a-324 this mark made during or after construction

[Edward F]

Post number 31 shows the unknown symbol

[Jens Nordlunde]

The dot marks are likely to be inventory markings, but the katar shown in post 26 is from Bundi, although it is marked with the Bikaner dot markings.
Jens

[Jens Nordlunde]

Edward F.
Which if the symbols in post 31 is unknown?

Although many weapons have been marked with the dot marking from Bikaner, they may not all come from Bikaner.
When a castle had been taken, and after a battle as well, the weapons of the looser would have been transported somewhere else - like Anup Singh did, to his homeland Bikaner, after the fall of Adoni. This would avoid that the same weapons were used twice against the same army.

[Edward F]

Jens
This is the first symbol that is unknow but appears on most if not all dotted markings

The symbol is followed by three numbers

[Edward F]

Post 31 they are all the same symbol (lower left symbol is odd ) as you know this dotted marking is small and to create a letter or numbers with dots on metal you will most likely not get a consistant letter.

[Jens Nordlunde]

As I dont read or write any off the Indian languages I asked a friend in India if he could help. Here is his answer to the dot marks i post 31 lower left corner.

"Yes you are right. It is in Gujarati (the language spoken on Indias west coast - Gujarat-Kutch state. This part borders Rajasthan. It reads bHi not bi. But I will lay my bet that it was inscribed at the Bikaner armoury by an ironsmith who used that dialect/script."

Not all the weapons in the Bikaner armory are made there, as some were looted and brought there. The workers at the Bikaner armoury were either natives from Bikaner/people who had moved there/people who had been moved there, so inscriptions could/would be a bit different.