A challenge ... what would this be?

[fernando]

The seller doesn't know ... and neither do i :confused:
It is in wood and about 5" long.
Any guess, Gentlemen?

Fernando

.

[David]

The seller doesn't know ... and neither do i :confused:
It is in wood and about 5" long.
Any guess, Gentlemen?

Fernando

.
Why it's the Holy Slingshot of Antioch! :D

[Rick]

Why it's the Holy Slingshot of Antioch! :D

I'm trying really hard not to ROFL David .. :D

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fernando,
You are the master of esoteric acquisitions!
Without context or any note of provenance, it would of course be really hard to say exactly what this might be, but the crosses would suggest the obvious Christian associations, and this would possibly be a votive of some kind. Such items were often created in symbolic images, but at this point it would be tough to guess.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Why it's the Holy Slingshot of Antioch! :D

Brilliant, David :eek:
Why didn't i think of that, in the first place?
... used by the priest to throw the communion wafers into the congregants mouths; good to avoid H1N1 contamination :cool: .
Fernando

[fernando]

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the hint :cool: .
No, no context or provenance, except that this is a Christian influenced region and, as you well suggest, the crosses are a symbolic reminder.
Only i think they are just alegoric and the object might as well be some kind of utensil, not necessarily with a direct connection to religious paraphernalia.
Fernando

[fernando]

Hi Rick,

I'm trying really hard not to ROFL David .. :D

Initials are tricky for a non english dominant :confused: .
Is this the meaning?


http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-018.gif


Fernando

[Rick]

Hi Fernando,
You are correct Sir . :D
I needed to laugh a bit last night; my apologies . :o

Do we have an origin for this piece ?

[fernando]

... my apologies . :o ...
Apologies? :confused: now i am worried :o


... Do we have an origin for this piece ?

No; i will have to ask the seller, although most probably he has bought it in a street fair and will not help :shrug:

Fernando

[Jeff Pringle]

I theorize that it is a lucet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucet), a device used for making cord for the last thousand years…size and shape seem about right, as does the wear polish…

[Bryan.H]

I saw this on Fagan's militaria site... he describes it as a Sudanese War club (?)

http://faganarms.com/images/products/display/8644a.jpg

alternatively, it could just as easily be an ancient egyptian can opener.

[colin henshaw]

It does have a bit of an African look, so with the Christian imagery, this would point to Highland Ethiopia. Ethiopian priests did carry hand crosses in procession usually made of metal...

Just a guess

[roanoa]

Let's avoid making silly comments about religious practises, such as Holy Communion, which I for one take quite seriously. Having said that, I believe this is an Ethiopian SISTRUM. It is missing the top part with the metal disks.

[fearn]

Hi Roanoa,

Do you have an example sistrum that looks like this? Most of the "ethiopian" sistrums shown on Google have much thinner uprights, and I'd expect to see holes drilled through it to hold the disks if it was a sistrum.

Neat object. I didn't know what a lucet was until Jeff brought it up.

Best,

F

[roanoa]

I looked up Google Images for "lucet" and there is indeed a strong similarity, though there is no hole beneath the "fork". The reason why I suggested a sistrum is because of the religious symbols. A simple string could be tied to the fork and there really is no need for holes to be drilled. Again, on Google Images I found a "How to make a sistrum" with a wooden fork and a string (plus the metal disks). So I still believe it is a possibility, though, of corse, I cannot be sure....

[kronckew]

not all the lucets i saw in the internet had holes. i'm tending towards that option. even monks or nuns would have done something like lucetting to occupy their time and make useful cords.

of course, it is also likely to be a plumber's tool.

[David]

not all the lucets i saw in the internet had holes. i'm tending towards that option. even monks or nuns would have done something like lucetting to occupy their time and make useful cords.

of course, it is also likely to be a plumber's tool.
True, there are quite a few lucets in googles images that do not have holes in them, but what most of them do seem to have in common is that they bow outward at the top of the forks to keep the string or rope on the forks while working. Fernando's example does not do this, infact the forks seem to angle in slightly and i think the rope would be likely to slip off, so i don't think this is a lucet. :shrug:
I am also dubious about whether it is a weapon of any kind.

[David]

I looked up Google Images for "lucet" and there is indeed a strong similarity, though there is no hole beneath the "fork". The reason why I suggested a sistrum is because of the religious symbols. A simple string could be tied to the fork and there really is no need for holes to be drilled. Again, on Google Images I found a "How to make a sistrum" with a wooden fork and a string (plus the metal disks). So I still believe it is a possibility, though, of corse, I cannot be sure....
I don't think this is a sistrum either. Sure you can make one out of it by stringing disks, but i can discern no wear where the strings would have been, nor do i see any wear where the disks would have no doubt struck on the inside of the forks when in use. :shrug:

[Tim Simmons]

Looks like a pious persons knitting or lace making tool? I think it is most probably European. If it was from Yorkshire it would be worth an awful lot of money.

[fernando]

Let's avoid making silly comments about religious practises, such as Holy Communion, which I for one take quite seriously...
No need to be fundamentalist, roanoa :confused: . We are joking here; considering a good faith piece of humor a silly coment, it's a remark that deserves no better classification :shrug: .


...Having said that, I believe this is an Ethiopian SISTRUM. It is missing the op part with the metal disks.
I find it very hard to be a sistrum, and i don't think it is missing any attachement; there is no marks sugesting so.
BTW, did you know that the sistrum, provenant from the egiptian cult to Isis, was forbidden in the VI century Concilium?
So true that it maintained its existence with Copta Christianism until present days.
Fernando

[fernando]

Thank you all for your sugestions, Gentlemen.
This exercize of trying to find out what an unkown thing is, can be a fascinating theme, specially because of the variety of sugestions put up.
So far we have a lucet, a slingshot ( :eek: ), a plumbers tool, a hand cross, and a war club ( :confused: ).
Although the lucet seems to be the closest sugestion, i don't think it is one; but i am not based in any evidence to so think.
I could swear it is not from Yorkshire ;) ; i am more certain of that than of the eventualy that it might be a weapon :rolleyes: .

Fernando.

[tribalarms]

Could it be a distaff?

[David]

So far we have a lucet, a slingshot ( :eek: ), a plumbers tool, a hand cross, and a war club ( :confused: ).
Don't forgets Jim's suggestion of a votive, which i have not discounted yet. In fact, for me right now it seems the most likely. :)

[kronckew]

the 'plumbers tool' was a reference to the other thread about a lead headed cane whose explanation varied from trench club to rabbit throwing stick and turned out to be a plumbing tool used to bang out dents in lead pipes.

in other words, keep your options open, it could be anything. probably something not mentioned that was in common use way back but is not now.

5 inches is a bit short for a war club i suspect.

[fernando]

Don't forget Jim's suggestion of a votive, which i have not discounted yet. In fact, for me right now it seems the most likely. :)
My uggly fault, David ... shame on me :o .
Yes Jim, also a sugestion to consider; i must honestly confess, though, that i still don't see light in the end of the tunnel :shrug: .
Thank's a lot all the same.
Fernando

[fernando]

Could it be a distaff?
Also an hypothesis not to discard.
But with those conical prongs, wouldn't the yarn slip away?
Fernando

[Rick]

My Wife who spins, knits, and is a high end Seamstress says it is too small to be a distaff .

On my computer screen 'Nando's full shot of this device renders larger than it actually is . :shrug:

[fearn]

The more I look at this, the more I become interested in the details.

For instance, the area between the two uprights appears to be carved down to an edge, and the supports for the uprights have those grooves which appear to be lined up.

There are a couple of possibilities. Either it's a tool, in which case the details are functionally significant, or it's some sort of symbolic item. In the later case, it's pretty clearly Christian, but I keep seeing some sort of "devil's horn" gesture in the uprights, combined with the three crosses, that makes me skeptical.

I don't have an answer, but despite what Rick's wife says, I keep coming back to something associated with thread or yarn-making. Something associated with a spinning wheel? Given the wood construction and lack of wear, if it was a tool, it pretty definitely had to be used for manipulating soft materials like thread, yarn, cord, or cloth.

Best,

F

[Emanuel]

At 5" tall, there aren't many things it can be. Small, must be portable. Decorated, personalized to the owner's taste. Something that would be used more or less commonly. The two horns look worn down, the surface is smooth from handling. Must have been held in the hand, subject to a fair bit of rubbing. I could see it used in weaving of some sort. A type of weaving comb?

Lucet seems most likely, not all have holes - see pic below.

Thoughts...

Emanuel

[fearn]

Hi Emanuel,

Interesting problem with the lucet theory: the edges of the piece. None of the lucet images I've seen have smooth, rounded edges, not bevels and grooves. As others noted, they also tend to have swelled ends and narrow arm bases, presumably to keep the yarns on the lucet.

While I don't have a better candidate, I'm not convinced yet.

Best,

F

[David]

At 5" tall, there aren't many things it can be. Small, must be portable. Decorated, personalized to the owner's taste. Something that would be used more or less commonly. The two horns look worn down, the surface is smooth from handling. Must have been held in the hand, subject to a fair bit of rubbing. I could see it used in weaving of some sort. A type of weaving comb?

Lucet seems most likely, not all have holes - see pic below.

Thoughts...

Emanuel
As i pointed out before, this would not make a very effective lucet as the forks are rounded and slope inwards. The cord would slip off while working. Look at the design of all these other lucets. The folks bow outward to help keep the cord on.
We are spending an awful lot of time on an object which i have serious doubts is any kind of weapon. :shrug: :confused:

[fearn]

Hi David,

Perhaps it's one of those infamous Curiosity Trap Sticks, that look like they're really important, and make us look at them far longer than we really should.... :D

[David]

Hi David,

Perhaps it's one of those infamous Curiosity Trap Sticks, that look like they're really important, and make us look at them far longer than we really should.... :D
Some dead guy is having a good laugh on us right now from on high. ;) :D

[Emanuel]

As i pointed out before, this would not make a very effective lucet as the forks are rounded and slope inwards. The cord would slip off while working. Look at the design of all these other lucets. The folks bow outward to help keep the cord on.
We are spending an awful lot of time on an object which i have serious doubts is any kind of weapon. :shrug: :confused:

The forks could have been worn down through use :shrug:

At 5" tall, the only offensive use this thing could have is poking eyes out. I agree this can't be a weapon.

[fernando]

Hi David,

... We are spending an awful lot of time on an object which i have serious doubts is any kind of weapon. :shrug: :confused:
I see that you were in fact the person who has more often posted in this thread.
I humbly beg you to pardon me :o .
Sure this is not a weapon.
I thought i'd post this curious object for a bit of relaxation, a sort of 'fait divers', hoping not to comit such a major crime :shrug: .
The truth is that, forumites posted their sugestions, even assuming this is not a weapon in the first place.
Being this forum the place we permanently frequent to query and discuss the items of our basic hobby (weapons), it just comes handy to break the tabu and also post here some non weapon item that crosses in our way.
Surely many a member has his set of curiousities at home, besides the potential of general culture that resides in this comunity.
... one feels tempted to pop up with these riddles :o .

Fernando

[fearn]

Considering how often we talk about weapon-like objects (African money spears, for instance?), I'm not bothered by this. As Fernando noted, it is different. Also, this is August, and if we don't do something different, we'll get stale :D

F

[Rick]

August is duck and cover month here (where I live), Fearn . :eek:

[fearn]

August is duck and cover month here (where I live), Fearn . :eek:

Mosquitoes? Or tourists? :D

[David]

Hi David,
I see that you were in fact the person who has more often posted in this thread.
I know, that's what's really bugging me. :rolleyes: :D
I humbly beg you to pardon me :o .
Sure this is not a weapon.
I thought i'd post this curious object for a bit of relaxation, a sort of 'fait divers', hoping not to comit such a major crime :shrug: .
Relaxation?! I've been going crazy trying to figure it out and find some answers here. Nothing relaxing about such a mystery! :D
But seriously Fernando, i was just commenting. Don't get so defensive. You have committed no major crime here. I must admit though that i am rather hoping it still turns out to be a weapon some how, though i strongly doubt it. Maybe you could go out and mug someone with it to see if it is effective. :D
Crime or not though i do hope this doesn't start a trend here of everyone dragging out their unidentified non-weapon curios for discussion. That could get old fast IMO. :)

[David]

Mosquitoes? Or tourists? :D
Is there a difference? ;)

[Rick]

Judging by our local news Tourists draw more blood . :eek:

Anyway, Fernando's post is not without precedent . ;)
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002485.html

[Bryan.H]

This object intrigues me and bugs the hell out of me!

I'm thinking now that it could be a Coptic 'hand cross', used in blessings and processions. It's fairly crudely carved, so maybe a rural village priest made it. :confused:
The other thing it may be, along the same lines, is as a ritual object used to handle or hold the vellum prayer scrolls, some of which are only a few inches wide.

alternatively, it's a Kenyan Salad server.. :D

[fernando]

Judging by our local news Tourists draw more blood . :eek:

Anyway, Fernando's post is not without precedent . ;)
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002485.html

Ah ... i remember this one :cool: .

[fernando]

I have been at the seller again. He told me he has this thing for quite some time; doesn't even remember where or who he got it from.
He wants some money for it. Not much, but i consider it expensive; anyway, an amount i am not willing to pay.
I handled it again and noticed a certain detail; something new to add to the reasoning of what this device would be: the area between the 'forks' is not of square section, but fairly angular. I don't think this only esthetical, but instead 'sharpened' like that to serve a purpose.

Fernando
.

[Tim Simmons]

This thing really does look like a domestic tool of some kind. I still feel it is ti do with a craft of some kind, perhaps a pushing tool or parting tool? maybe a traditional womens craft like this ebay item and these things fetch good money.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110431171546&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[fernando]

I (surprisingly) didn't buy it, although its price is five times less than that one in ebay.
... And i still don't know what it is :shrug: .