Kattara for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hawksheads. (Nimcha) Known elsewhere as Karabela. In Oman because it is curved it simply gets the Kattara sticker though even amongst locals they sometimes call it a sayf ( a sword ). I show hawksheads as an overlapping form from the last post and as a separate style probably Yemeni and boun cing into there via the Red Sea and Zanzibar..sporting the usual range of European and copied blades as in the above post. One photo shows the Ottoman version..with luxurious horn hilt and conspicuous large rivvets and a likely contender of "origin of species" ! These certainly appear to be "weapons grade swords" with or without quillons and being reasonably short would have been ideal on board ships. From the lavish original style it seems to have degenerated into a general ships long knife, shortsword, cutlass retaining its hilt shape though in simple wood with leather over. In this way it has survived as a practical weapon though it is more seen on the periphery and on dhows. It is certainly not a pageantry item. It is tempting to try the label "Yemeni Nimcha."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Origin of species Omani Dancing sword SAYF. There are no details indicating the provenance or precise timeline of this swords' origins. It is assumed to have arrived in the 18th century but how and from where or what design is unproven. Perhaps someone simply dreamed it up, from the sword pictured below, as an honorary equipment in parallel with the current ruling familys control viz;

~ Imam Ahmed bin Said bin Ahmed bin Mohammed Al-Busaidi (founder of the Al Busaidi state) was subsequently elected Imam in 1744. He was a popular and well-respected leader. Despite having to reconcile the warring factions after the civil war, Ahmad bin Said developed and built up the Oman navy into a fierce task force, which assisted in the expulsion of the Persians from Basra. He died in 1783 in Rustaq ~

The Possible Contender as to Origin.
It looks rather like a Red Sea variant sword known to have origins in Ottoman, Mamaluke, Abbasiid and likely Greek style. The hilt is, in fact, tantalizingly similar in style to the old Omani Sayf Yamani except it looks stretched since its long weighty blade requires a long handle for balance.
It is a weapon; i.e. it has a point and a spike at the pommel for the close in business. It is double edged and not flexible being stiff and powerful in make up for stabbing, thrusting and slashing. Looking closely there is what appears to be a hilt guard and though it is tenuous it does appear to be a reinforced structure forward of the grip.

On the other hand, and in the absence of proof, it may be totally unrelated. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Devadatta]

I wonder what sword does this man at the picture have, I guess it shall be a curved kattara or can it be straight saif?

[David R]

Hi Ibrahiim, the subject of Omani "dancing swords" fascinates me. Perhaps you have posted elsewhere but..is there any chance of you posting a video of the sword dance in action. Believe it or not there is a tradition of UK sword dancing, called "Morris dancing" ie"Moorish Dancing" often claimed to have been brought back from the Crusades.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I wonder what sword does this man at the picture have, I guess it shall be a curved kattara or can it be straight saif?


Salaams Devadatta ~ Is it Straight Sayf or Curved Kattara?

Wow !! Very interesting picture which appears to be the local governor(Wali) of Salalah in 1902 ! He wears a medal and the Royal Khanjar and a long hilt sword. Is it a curved Kattara (hilt marginally longer than the straight and worn in the dress ceremonial (Iconic) role) rather than the Straight Sayf worn in preparation to dance or enact a pageant?

The Wali is like the lord mayor (seen here in full official regalia in special head dress and official robes) though with wide sweeping jurisdiction and legal powers acting to solve local water rights, grazing rights, land disputes or arguements over family problems and other affairs ...This looks like his official portrait photograph.

The Wali could easily hold a court session with up to 10 or more cases being dealt with symultaneously rather like the Caucasian chalk circle by Tolstoy ~ instant justice ~

The long curved Kattara therefor being the badge of office of the legal governor of Salalah. "The Wali Of Salalah" . Wali Mohamed bin Salim Mirindani. Brilliant post thankyou !

Therefor it is The Omani Curved Kattara. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim, the subject of Omani "dancing swords" fascinates me. Perhaps you have posted elsewhere but..is there any chance of you posting a video of the sword dance in action. Believe it or not there is a tradition of UK sword dancing, called "Morris dancing" ie"Moorish Dancing" often claimed to have been brought back from the Crusades.

Salaams David~ Morris dancing.. ? I think that is a festive seasonal English pageant structure built arround ancient beliefs no? In which case it is the same sort of reasoning behind the Funoon traditions in Oman but in the Morris they use sticks and bells (and drink lots of cider !) Its a tradition but the idea is similar)... :D There is a dance routine enactment on web just tap into search Omani Sword Fighting I think..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Devadatta]

Salaams Ibrahiim, thank you for ansewr.

So as far as I understand you, long straight saif was made only for dancing and never was a weapon, neither battle one nor what we can call presentation (like European court swords, small-swords, officer dress-daggers and so on which can't be counted as actual weapons due to light construction but underline the high status of their owners)

But I see one more picture of modern days - I guess it's H.M. Sultan Qaboos himself, and as I can see he is wearing a straight saif. So I just wanted to ask could there be a possibility of using straight saifs as a kind of presentation weapon, or their role is only for dancing and nothing more? Thank you in advance!

[Devadatta]

Also as I can see straight saifs often serve as official presents..

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Ibrahiim, thank you for ansewr.

So as far as I understand you, long straight saif was made only for dancing and never was a weapon, neither battle one nor what we can call presentation (like European court swords, small-swords, officer dress-daggers and so on which can't be counted as actual weapons due to light construction but underline the high status of their owners)

But I see one more picture of modern days - I guess it's H.M. Sultan Qaboos himself, and as I can see he is wearing a straight saif. So I just wanted to ask could there be a possibility of using straight saifs as a kind of presentation weapon, or their role is only for dancing and nothing more? Thank you in advance!


Salaams Devadatta ~ Yes thats the ruler holding a sword with gold trim in what appears to be either straight or curved variety though I cant tell since its cut off half way bet I suspect it is curved. None the less in the case of the ruler he can wear what he pleases :) The straight Sayf is "Dancer Only" not for fighting though often given as a present... Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Also as I can see straight saifs often serve as official presents..

Salaams Devadatta I imagine that this is the most awarded presentation gift as is the Omani Khanjar. This Omani Sayf is in gold trim and seen being given to a visiting dignatory by the Ruler.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams ~ The majority of old pictures depict Zanzibari or Muscat Sultans sporting great long curved Kattara swords but because of the constraints on close up pictures in the late 19th C. often the sword picture is cut at about half way!(making identification difficult) Often they are also seen with Khanjars and/ or either of the other swords (Shamshir Style or Zanzibari Nimcha)... or no weapon at all.

Something of a clue is offered by the nature of the badge of office in that in full regalia a Sultan(Official or VIP) is not likely to be about to engage in pageantry, moreover, it is the curved sword Kattara being worn to reflect the majestic rank of the wearer ( Such swords tend to have slightly longer hilts than the dancing straight Sayf variant.) The final proof in this case is in photo two of a full length showing "the curve". The Omani Kattara !

In addition below The Kattara is rigged to carry in the low mount on two sword rings.) Note also the Royal Khanjar.(Anyone is entitled to wear it) This is Tipu Sultan the great slave trader.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David R]

Salaams David~ Morris dancing.. ? I think that is a festive seasonal English pageant structure built arround ancient beliefs no? In which case it is the same sort of reasoning behind the Funoon traditions in Oman but in the Morris they use sticks and bells (and drink lots of cider !) Its a tradition but the idea is similar)... :D There is a dance routine enactment on web just tap into search Omani Sword Fighting I think..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
There are actualy two traditions of sword dancing in Morris, one with a conventional "sword", and the other with a grip at each end of the blade so it can be held by two dancers at the same time. It is believed the double grip originated in the use of horse grooming tool as a sword substitute. Just one of those oddities we have here in the UK.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

There are actualy two traditions of sword dancing in Morris, one with a conventional "sword", and the other with a grip at each end of the blade so it can be held by two dancers at the same time. It is believed the double grip originated in the use of horse grooming tool as a sword substitute. Just one of those oddities we have here in the UK.


Salaams David R ~ Then it appears that the closest comparison to the Razha section(SWORDS CELEBRATORY SECTION) in the Funoon pageant tradition~ in the form of a processional dance and secondly in a mimic fight "al yalaah" which goes back to 751 AD and beyond is Morris Dancing in the UK! :)

UK Pantomime styles I believe also exist in the Guy Fawks celebrations and in the ring a ring o roses enactment by children of the great plague...and in pageants such as The Furry Dance.

In Oman the unwritten form takes on quite another level and everyday "way of life" events are recorded so that the body of work (The Funoon) is sub-divided into Agriculture, Fishing, Trade, Marriage and War to name a few of the unwritten, acted out, pageantry; songs, dances, poetry and performances which are sacrasanct and handed down faithfully generation to generation. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

""The Omani dancing sword was never used nor was it intended for use as a fighting weapon. The sword dance is purely honorific and as part of the Funoon reflecting a tradition. Going in to bat against a swordsman with a proper sword would leave someone without fingers and probably minus a hand in about 2 seconds flat ! Piano lessons would be cancelled !""

This has already been answered. The lack of quillons or guard is no measure. The evidence can be found in many swords such as:

1- Shashkas.
2- Afghan Shashkas.
3- Sinai bedouin Saber.
4- Dhas.
5- Barongs.
6- Khyber knives.

So there is plenty of evidence to counter your assumption here.

""The Omani Sayf dancing sword was designed for the traditions.. The Razha ... nothing else. The shield blocking is part of a show. Exponents can attack the shield but can only score the winning point by touching the opponents thumb with the spatulate tip...""

Sure, that might be the rules of the dance. But you are neglecting the existance of sharp saifs and ones with pointy tips.. oh wait, these are one offs... many one offs.

""The flexibility is for show only~ so that the blade can be buzzed in the air in the procession part of the Razha. People would laugh at you if you went into a sword fight with a 90 degree bending tip !!""

Not necessarily, after all, not all Kattaras are flexible blades ;-) (I take the whole "solid blades are touristy" argument as very.. well pointless)

""No quillons, no spike on the pommel, and a blade that bends virtually in half does not equal a fighting sword..Your suggestion of the spiked pommel being "subjective" is puzzling. ( On this point we are refering to the Old Omani Battle Sword comparing its spiked pommel with the Dancing Sayf which has no spike). The spike being for close quarter battle. Why else would a sword have a spiked pommel? More importantly why has the dancing sword not got one? Hardly subjective; I suggest.""

This is subjective because not every sword that went to use through out history has a spiked pommel. The straight Omani saif not having a spiked pommel does not say much about its purpose ;-)

""What is far more relevant is that the term Sayf was passed on from the Old Omani Battle Sword ~ The SAYF YAMAANI ~ along with the TERRS SHIELD to be honoured in the Funoon by this dancing tool, a simbolic accoutrement...not a weapon system as such but given the name Omani Sayf wa Terrs.""

Or maybe they just called a saif.. a saif like most arabs do?:P

""Your Bedawi reference is, as you indicate, ill placed, however, I would suggest that this is an interesting weapon requiring serious research and fine detail...""

You still missed the point. My reference was regarding the situation in which the badawi has evolved, the straight Omani "MAY" have went to the exact same thing as like the badawi, there are solid battle omani saifs and dance ones. So all am saying is, your whole conclusion is assumptive.


(Decided to reply here, in order not to delay Illiad's topic)

[Devadatta]

Gents, sorry to interrupt your discussion, but here I found several old photos with straight saif. As I see they belong to forum member Michael Blalock, so I really hope there's no problem if I provide links:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865@N04/929246535/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865@N04/929246233/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865@N04/929246489/in/photostream/

OK, the last one can be a little curved kattara - I'm not sure. But at first two we can see pure straight saif. I just wanted to ask Ibrahiim - are these photos supposed to be taken before/after the dance, or we may consider that saif could be worn at some official occasions (like a parade/dress weapon)?

Thank you

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Gents, sorry to interrupt your discussion, but here I found several old photos with straight saif. As I see they belong to forum member Michael Blalock, so I really hope there's no problem if I provide links:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865@N04/929246535/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865@N04/929246233/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865@N04/929246489/in/photostream/

OK, the last one can be a little curved kattara - I'm not sure. But at first two we can see pure straight saif. I just wanted to ask Ibrahiim - are these photos supposed to be taken before/after the dance, or we may consider that saif could be worn at some official occasions (like a parade/dress weapon)?

Thank you

Salaams Devadatta ~ Nice photos. As you can see there are many Iconic swords on display in these pictures including Shamshir style and Zanzibari Nimchas as well as curved long Kattaras with long hilts and some pictures with straight swords in the dancing configuration of Omani Sayf. Difficult to say how these photos were set up... The one with the tree in the background looks like a studio set up. Who knows which of these swords were supplied just for the picture shoot or who was wearing what sword for what purpose Im afraid... Al I can say is that as a rule The dancing straight sayf was not used as an Iconic sword(as far as I know~ but it might have been) but that the others were certainly used for that purpose.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

""The Omani dancing sword was never used nor was it intended for use as a fighting weapon. The sword dance is purely honorific and as part of the Funoon reflecting a tradition. Going in to bat against a swordsman with a proper sword would leave someone without fingers and probably minus a hand in about 2 seconds flat ! Piano lessons would be cancelled !""

This has already been answered. The lack of quillons or guard is no measure. The evidence can be found in many swords such as:

1- Shashkas.
2- Afghan Shashkas.
3- Sinai bedouin Saber.
4- Dhas.
5- Barongs.
6- Khyber knives.

So there is plenty of evidence to counter your assumption here.

""The Omani Sayf dancing sword was designed for the traditions.. The Razha ... nothing else. The shield blocking is part of a show. Exponents can attack the shield but can only score the winning point by touching the opponents thumb with the spatulate tip...""

Sure, that might be the rules of the dance. But you are neglecting the existance of sharp saifs and ones with pointy tips.. oh wait, these are one offs... many one offs.

""The flexibility is for show only~ so that the blade can be buzzed in the air in the procession part of the Razha. People would laugh at you if you went into a sword fight with a 90 degree bending tip !!""

Not necessarily, after all, not all Kattaras are flexible blades ;-) (I take the whole "solid blades are touristy" argument as very.. well pointless)

""No quillons, no spike on the pommel, and a blade that bends virtually in half does not equal a fighting sword..Your suggestion of the spiked pommel being "subjective" is puzzling. ( On this point we are refering to the Old Omani Battle Sword comparing its spiked pommel with the Dancing Sayf which has no spike). The spike being for close quarter battle. Why else would a sword have a spiked pommel? More importantly why has the dancing sword not got one? Hardly subjective; I suggest.""

This is subjective because not every sword that went to use through out history has a spiked pommel. The straight Omani saif not having a spiked pommel does not say much about its purpose ;-)

""What is far more relevant is that the term Sayf was passed on from the Old Omani Battle Sword ~ The SAYF YAMAANI ~ along with the TERRS SHIELD to be honoured in the Funoon by this dancing tool, a simbolic accoutrement...not a weapon system as such but given the name Omani Sayf wa Terrs.""

Or maybe they just called a saif.. a saif like most arabs do?:P

""Your Bedawi reference is, as you indicate, ill placed, however, I would suggest that this is an interesting weapon requiring serious research and fine detail...""

You still missed the point. My reference was regarding the situation in which the badawi has evolved, the straight Omani "MAY" have went to the exact same thing as like the badawi, there are solid battle omani saifs and dance ones. So all am saying is, your whole conclusion is assumptive.


(Decided to reply here, in order not to delay Illiad's topic)

Salaams A.alnakkas. Please try to understand that hypothesis and research are two different things. Whilst you may possibly think a sword should obey this or that rule and without full research you can simply conclude; may not be a valuable lesson since you may perhaps be relying on gut feeling and not upon the facts. On research we appreciate but we don't situate. :shrug:

Whilst there may be a few odd weapons (normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you ) that do not employ quillons the Omani dancing sword, though it looks like a long sparring sword doesn't have them because it's not a fighting weapon. (see current thread)

There arent any Omani Sayfs with points or stiff blades. There are some hybrids but they are mainly tourist swords done in Muscat since 1970. Omani dancing swords "SAYF" do not have this configuration. Omani people dont go for the hybrid varieties because you cant dance with a dead blade. Its that simple.

The only true Omani Battle Sword with a straight stiff pointed blade is the "Sayf Yamaani". The Old Omani Battle Sword. No others exist.

The spiked Pommel is answered at the other post however it is assumed that a short battle sword (Sayf Yamaani) with a spiked pommel would have in its arsenal of possible uses the close quarter battle technique employing a strike to soft targets like the eyes neck and face. I shall search for documentary proof; as always.

Your Quote
Not necessarily, after all, not all Kattaras are flexible blades ;-) (I take the whole "solid blades are touristy" argument as very.. well pointless)Unquote

This is not initially understood but I assume you mean Sayf not Kattara since as you will recall~ Sayf are the straight whilst Kattara are the curved ~ so that my answer must be Yes, all Omani Sayfs are flexible bladed and round tipped. They are all dancing swords. They are not weapons and never were.

(Naturally the Old Omani Battle Sword "Sayf Yamaani" is as described; a fighting weapon..Stiff, powerful, double edged, short blade, pointed, with quillons and a pommel spike.. emanating in about circa 751 AD and giving its "Sayf" name and "Terrs Shield" over to the new honorific pageant style of Flexible Omani dancing Sayf in about 1744)
The Sayf Yamaani exibits the classic example of weapons freeze.

Where you are perhaps getting confused is upon the appearance of Hybridised weapons that have been switched and available in Muscat since about 1970 and have fooled tourists and the unsuspecting passer by for nearly half a century.

The Bedawi weapon is an excellent subject in which to invest time and effort in meaningful and respectable research. I can certainly assist in this, however, since you are much closer to the source in such blades perhaps you would like to lead with an opening new thread on the subject. There are Bedouin in Oman namely Rashidi, Bayt Kathiir, Wahayybi and Harsiisi(Jarsiis) and maybe one or two others...and it would be an interesting subject.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

""Salaams A.alnakkas. Please try to understand that hypothesis and research are two different things. Whilst you may possibly think a sword should obey this or that rule and without full research you can simply conclude; may not be a valuable lesson since you may perhaps be relying on gut feeling and not upon the facts. On research we appreciate but we don't situate. ""

Wa Alaikum elsalam.

I am open to your idea. Its just that you havent yet provided good evidence for it. Your assumptions for why the straight saif is dance only has been answered, and I will counter your replies.

""Whilst there may be a few odd weapons (normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you ) that do not employ quillons the Omani dancing sword, though it looks like a long sparring sword doesn't have them because it's not a fighting weapon. (see current thread)""

Are you saying that the Shashka, the afghan shashka, the barong, the sinai shashka, the dhas, the khyber knives AND the yataghans are "extremely short blades vertually knife length"?

Have you even handled one?

Again, there are plenty of swords with no quillons and those swords are battle tested. Your assumption IS WRONG. :D

""There arent any Omani Sayfs with points or stiff blades. There are some hybrids but they are mainly tourist swords done in Muscat since 1970. Omani dancing swords "SAYF" do not have this configuration. Omani people dont go for the hybrid varieties because you cant dance with a dead blade. Its that simple.""

Not really. This is rather assumptive. Why are you suggesting that solid(er) blades are touristy made in the 70's? Whats the evidence? Majority of Kattaras with solid blades tend to have fine mounts and silver wire stitched hilts, this is against the tourist trade which generally goes for the least costy products. I'd say an Omani trader would have a better chance selling a flexible, made yesterday for Razha type of swords to tourists since its less costy.

""This is not initially understood but I assume you mean Sayf not Kattara since as you will recall~ Sayf are the straight whilst Kattara are the curved ~ so that my answer must be Yes, all Omani Sayfs are flexible bladed and round tipped. They are all dancing swords. They are not weapons and never were""

Yep, I mean the straight saif, but out of habit I just call it kattara. I actually agree with your research regarding terminology and totally appreciate it. When you said so, I researched alittle bit online and found out that websites with random information about the Shihies (or their websites) would call the curved one Kattarah (كتارة) and straight ones; saif. So I am with you on this one.

But not with you on the purpose of the straight saif.

""Where you are perhaps getting confused is upon the appearance of Hybridised weapons that have been switched and available in Muscat since about 1970 and have fooled tourists and the unsuspecting passer by for nearly half a century.""

Not really.

""The Bedawi weapon is an excellent subject in which to invest time and effort in meaningful and respectable research. I can certainly assist in this, however, since you are much closer to the source in such blades perhaps you would like to lead with an opening new thread on the subject. There are Bedouin in Oman namely Rashidi, Bayt Kathiir, Wahayybi and Harsiisi(Jarsiis) and maybe one or two others...and it would be an interesting subject. ""

Again, the badawi offers a similar view to the straight saif. But true, defintely deserves more research ;-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

""Salaams A.alnakkas. Please try to understand that hypothesis and research are two different things. Whilst you may possibly think a sword should obey this or that rule and without full research you can simply conclude; may not be a valuable lesson since you may perhaps be relying on gut feeling and not upon the facts. On research we appreciate but we don't situate. ""

Wa Alaikum elsalam.

I am open to your idea. Its just that you havent yet provided good evidence for it. Your assumptions for why the straight saif is dance only has been answered, and I will counter your replies.

""Whilst there may be a few odd weapons (normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you ) that do not employ quillons the Omani dancing sword, though it looks like a long sparring sword doesn't have them because it's not a fighting weapon. (see current thread)""

Are you saying that the Shashka, the afghan shashka, the barong, the sinai shashka, the dhas, the khyber knives AND the yataghans are "extremely short blades vertually knife length"?

Have you even handled one?

Again, there are plenty of swords with no quillons and those swords are battle tested. Your assumption IS WRONG. :D

""There arent any Omani Sayfs with points or stiff blades. There are some hybrids but they are mainly tourist swords done in Muscat since 1970. Omani dancing swords "SAYF" do not have this configuration. Omani people dont go for the hybrid varieties because you cant dance with a dead blade. Its that simple.""

Not really. This is rather assumptive. Why are you suggesting that solid(er) blades are touristy made in the 70's? Whats the evidence? Majority of Kattaras with solid blades tend to have fine mounts and silver wire stitched hilts, this is against the tourist trade which generally goes for the least costy products. I'd say an Omani trader would have a better chance selling a flexible, made yesterday for Razha type of swords to tourists since its less costy.

""This is not initially understood but I assume you mean Sayf not Kattara since as you will recall~ Sayf are the straight whilst Kattara are the curved ~ so that my answer must be Yes, all Omani Sayfs are flexible bladed and round tipped. They are all dancing swords. They are not weapons and never were""

Yep, I mean the straight saif, but out of habit I just call it kattara. I actually agree with your research regarding terminology and totally appreciate it. When you said so, I researched alittle bit online and found out that websites with random information about the Shihies (or their websites) would call the curved one Kattarah (كتارة) and straight ones; saif. So I am with you on this one.

But not with you on the purpose of the straight saif.

""Where you are perhaps getting confused is upon the appearance of Hybridised weapons that have been switched and available in Muscat since about 1970 and have fooled tourists and the unsuspecting passer by for nearly half a century.""

Not really.

""The Bedawi weapon is an excellent subject in which to invest time and effort in meaningful and respectable research. I can certainly assist in this, however, since you are much closer to the source in such blades perhaps you would like to lead with an opening new thread on the subject. There are Bedouin in Oman namely Rashidi, Bayt Kathiir, Wahayybi and Harsiisi(Jarsiis) and maybe one or two others...and it would be an interesting subject. ""

Again, the badawi offers a similar view to the straight saif. But true, defintely deserves more research ;-)


Salaams A.alnakkas ~ I think you need to read the available data at this thread and others to finally be convinced as I and the rest of the population in Oman are, (including the Museums and the National Herritage Association) viz;..

1. That the Omani dancing sword; (The very flexible long hilted, spatula tipped, straight Sayf of circa 1744 introduction) is in fact not a weapon and never was. It is for pageant and dancing only. :(

2. That interloper swords infiltrated by traders into Oman since 1970 have been rehilted in Muscat and sold on the tourist market particularly straight Yemeni and Saudia blades of the sort we are discussing. :o

3. That these swords are not bought by Omani people as dancing swords but by visitors who think they are a dancing sword when in fact they are not. They dont buzz. They are heavier and have a point. They were originally weapons. An Omani person would much rather buy a broomstick than one of these !! :)

4. That the Omani Straight is a Sayf and the curved is a Kattara (though I note that despite the 250 plus posts on this Forum you needed to go online to discover this on the Shehe website, though, I have to say well done on confirming that ! so why dont you kindly post that website on this thread as confirmation?) :D

Actually I was just thinking that this time last year I was in Kabul where I must have handled about 1,000 different weapons of the type Kard, Pulwar and others where I noted the lethality of the blades on swords mainly designed to go straight into the attack as opposed to parry. The majority were short by comparison more like a butchers knife. Naturally there are weapons that are designed to slash and chop but I'm afraid the Omani long dancer is not one of these.

There is even a strange sword that wraps around the body which is totally flexible and used like a whip(I owned one). Whilst that too is a weapon employing flexibility; the Omani dancing Sword is NOT. It is for dancing and pageants only.

HAVE i HANDLED WEAPONS ? I trained with a master of weapons of the Chinese tAI cHI (fighting style) school and in spear particularly. I trained in the Japanese style and used a live Omani Kattara blade to compare (not reccommended) I am a black belt first dan in knockdown Kyokushinkai and trained with one of Oss!! "Sossai Maso Yama" Oss!! "young lions" the well respected master from Beirut, Sensei Rashiid Sabbagh... for 10 years. I am trained on every modern bayonett and firearm invented~I am a marksman class shot(Rifle) since the late 20th C. Weapons were my profession for decades ! I own 50 swords and have owned hundreds more. Therefor since you call into question have I handled them?...the answer is Yes. :shrug:

The subject of the Bedawi weapon is intriguing and I wonder where it started life and how it transmitted ~ Its not an Omani weapon though may be evidenced in these fringe Bedu groups perhaps from Murra to Rashid and on to Bait Kathiir and Harsis.. I urge you to throw your energy into that and as a specialist in Omani artefacts, arms and armour and as a camel owner (See Wilfred Thesiger as it was my team that did the Liwa re-enactment)) Im also a horse owner(Arabian and part Arabian) and junior Falcon associate. I have to go now as my Salukki arab hunting dog is at the vets ! :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

""Salaams A.alnakkas ~ I think you need to read the available data at this thread and others to finally be convinced as I and the rest of the population in Oman are, (including the Museums and the National Herritage Association) viz;..""

Wa Alaikum elSalam,

Ibrahim, I very much value the info which you have brought. But the "information" which you have brought to support that the straight saif is dance only are basically nothing but your own assumptions.

""1. That the Omani dancing sword; (The very flexible long hilted, spatula tipped, straight Sayf of circa 1744 introduction) is in fact not a weapon and never was. It is for pageant and dancing only.""

I can claim that a duck is not a duck and insist upon it, but that does not make me right :-)

"" 2. That interloper swords infiltrated by traders into Oman since 1970 have been rehilted in Muscat and sold on the tourist market particularly straight Yemeni and Saudia blades of the sort we are discussing.""

Evidence states otherwise as there are straight saifs with solid to flexible (sharp and battle ready non the less) with older mounts.

""3. That these swords are not bought by Omani people as dancing swords but by visitors who think they are a dancing sword when in fact they are not. They dont buzz. They are heavier and have a point. They were originally weapons. An Omani person would much rather buy a broomstick than one of these !!""

This all could be right but again, Omanis now caring more for dancing blades do not say much about the time when the sword they danced with, was also the one they'd take for battle.

""4. That the Omani Straight is a Sayf and the curved is a Kattara (though I note that despite the 250 plus posts on this Forum you needed to go online to discover this on the Shehe website, though, I have to say well done on confirming that ! so why dont you kindly post that website on this thread as confirmation?)""

Are you against confirmation?

http://www.hdrmut.net/vb/t365731.html (pict of the full sword seems to be removed)

http://wadilaqat.forumarabia.com/t1022-topic

They dont say much but you can look for clues into how they refer to items. This is pretty much all I did and I used it as a supporting argument to your argument. This would be nice for you if you can read arabic.

""Actually I was just thinking that this time last year I was in Kabul where I must have handled about 1,000 different weapons of the type Kard, Pulwar and others where I noted the lethality of the blades on swords mainly designed to go straight into the attack as opposed to parry. The majority were short by comparison more like a butchers knife. Naturally there are weapons that are designed to slash and chop but I'm afraid the Omani long dancer is not one of these. ""

Are you refering to Khyber knives? sure, there are short variants, but they are basically short swords and are used as swords.

""There is even a strange sword that wraps around the body which is totally flexible and used like a whip(I owned one). Whilst that too is a weapon employing flexibility; the Omani dancing Sword is NOT. It is for dancing and pageants only.""

Flexibility wouldnt really matter much if you are not going to parry with the sword. Imo, considering that most arabs rarely use any form of heavy armor, a saif with a sharp blade and some durability would be lethal even if its flexible or not.


""HAVE i HANDLED WEAPONS ? I trained with a master of weapons of the Chinese tAI cHI (fighting style) school and in spear particularly. I trained in the Japanese style and used a live Omani Kattara blade to compare (not reccommended) I am a black belt first dan in knockdown Kyokushinkai and trained with one of Oss!! "Sossai Maso Yama" Oss!! "young lions" the well respected master from Beirut, Sensei Rashiid Sabbagh... for 10 years. I am trained on every modern bayonett and firearm invented~I am a marksman class shot(Rifle) since the late 20th C. Weapons were my profession for decades ! I own 50 swords and have owned hundreds more. Therefor since you call into question have I handled them?...the answer is Yes.""

This is a strawman of my question. I asked about specific weapons (swords) which YOU have refered to as knives : "normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you" This is false information as a dha, a yataghan, shashkas, barongs and khyber knives are swords and certainly not the length of a knife (can argue that barongs and khybers are short but hey, not as short as a knife.)

Am sure you have more achievements done in your life but please do answer the questions instead of strawmans as they waste your and my time.

But to get more into the point, here are links to swords that are battle tested without guards and quillons:

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=67

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3345

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3225

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4565

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=568

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=518

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3736

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3378

Using your logic, these are not combat weapons :D

""The subject of the Bedawi weapon is intriguing and I wonder where it started life and how it transmitted ~ Its not an Omani weapon though may be evidenced in these fringe Bedu groups perhaps from Murra to Rashid and on to Bait Kathiir and Harsis.. I urge you to throw your energy into that and as a specialist in Omani artefacts, arms and armour and as a camel owner (See Wilfred Thesiger as it was my team that did the Liwa re-enactment)) Im also a horse owner(Arabian and part Arabian) and junior Falcon associate. I have to go now as my Salukki arab hunting dog is at the vets !""

Similar evolution. Again, these 2 sword types I never claimed to be one or anything, but they basically went into the same thing where a real thing turns into more of a dancing sword. :-)

[Iain]

I have zero interest in getting into the "dance sword" debate, I've expressed my opinions throughout this thread I think pretty clearly. :D

But I did want to add this example to the thread for posterity, as it's now no longer for sale (note: I am not the buyer)

http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/rare-arab-oman-kattara-sword

It's an old saif with a European blade, note the ricasso.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I have zero interest in getting into the "dance sword" debate, I've expressed my opinions throughout this thread I think pretty clearly. :D

But I did want to add this example to the thread for posterity, as it's now no longer for sale (note: I am not the buyer)

http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/rare-arab-oman-kattara-sword

It's an old saif with a European blade, note the ricasso.


Salaams Iain, It amazes me that the ashok website continues to ignore the raft of information provided on this forum about the Old Omani Battle Sword. The shape of the pommel is related to ancient archways in the Abbasid dynasty and Islamic helmets also reflect this design down the ages. The pointed pommel often has the same number of geometric sides as the hilt... either 6, 8 or even one in my collection has 9.

However, I describe the pictured item as an "Old Omani Battle Sword" hilt fitted with a European (probably German blade) between the 17th and 19th Century. The fitting is crudely fastened with two rivvets at the cuff through the blade and I assume the tang is modified etc. Odd blade marks of a possible European nature and the tell tale non sharp parts of the blade in front of the cuff at the throat (ricasso) typical of many European blades so that the "half sword" tactic could be employed and for speed and control. ~Perhaps this blade was one destined originally for Ethiopia and later hybridised. Nevertheless it is an interesting switch over but is not original (nor, to be fair, does it state that) though it is as an example of a rehilted European blade (German Solingen?) on an Omani Old Battle Sword Hilt...It is, I suggest, a viable weapon on an Old Omani hilt and not done for the tourist market unlike changes carried out on later swords.

Thank you for the clear reference and pictures.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain, It amazes me that the ashok website continues to ignore the raft of information provided on this forum about the Old Omani Battle Sword. The shape of the pommel is related to ancient archways in the Abbasid dynasty and Islamic helmets also reflect this design down the ages. The pointed pommel often has the same number of geometric sides as the hilt... either 6, 8 or even one in my collection has 9.

However, I describe the pictured item as an "Old Omani Battle Sword" hilt fitted with a European (probably German blade) between the 17th and 19th Century. The fitting is crudely fastened with two rivvets at the cuff through the blade and I assume the tang is modified etc. Odd blade marks of a possible European nature and the tell tale non sharp parts of the blade in front of the cuff at the throat (ricasso) typical of many European blades so that the "half sword" tactic could be employed and for speed and control. ~Perhaps this blade was one destined originally for Ethiopia and later hybridised. Nevertheless it is an interesting switch over but is not original (nor, to be fair, does it state that) though it is as an example of a rehilted European blade (German Solingen?) on an Omani Old Battle Sword Hilt...It is, I suggest, a viable weapon on an Old Omani hilt and not done for the tourist market unlike changes carried out on later swords.

Thank you for the clear reference and pictures.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

I don't think you can count on all dealers reading the threads here. ;)

To be completely honest I think you are playing with semantics at this point by wanting to focus on the hilt and not the sword overall. Agreed the hilt was quite probably not made for this particular blade.

I know you have your definitions for what constitutes an Omani sword or not but this is where those definitions are problematic in my opinion. This is a sword, for Omanis put together by an Omani and if the blade is European that doesn't change what this is in the least to me. It's an Omani saif.

By the logic you are using quite a number of my takouba are simply takouba hilts on European blades. Same goes for kaskara and many other ethnic weapons from Africa and Asia.

I've spent enough time in this thread pointing out European bladed examples and I know your arguments for how to classify them, so I don't think either of us needs to spend time retyping it all. :)

I find this example very interesting and I would assume there are more of them out there. It would be interesting to find a hilt made for one of these blades, it would not surprise me to find one as obviously there was no problem locally to accept such blades.

Frankly I think this also throws into question the idea that the European blades turning up in modern mounts are exclusively from outside Omani use and simply remounted for tourists. Judging by this there was no issue to use European blades even in the Old Style hilts. :)

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams ~ I believe you may have misconstrued the research which is detailed and correct based upon Omani and UAE National Archive and Museum information, coupled with on site comprehensive research by myself and my team. The facts are neatly laid out and findings are there to see viz;

1. The Omani flexible long hilted dancing sword is a dancing sword only and always has been.

2. Hybridised straight swords typically Red Sea variants with points and stiff blades placed on Omani long hilts and Omani scabbards are not favoured by Omanis for dancing (or anything else) and are classed as Tourist Swords being mainly conversions done in Muscat Souk and sold there since 1970.(according to the Muscat souk and workshops owners)

3. Hybridised curved blades of European or other manufacture placed on Omani long hilts are badge of office not battle swords though in their previous configuration they were probably weapons.

4. Non hybridised Omani swords that include Zanzibari Nimcha and what we sometimes in Forum terms describe as Shamshir; That is those curved Persian, Safavid blades on typical cross hilts, designed originally by a Syrian master working for the Persian Royal Court and Hyderabadi similar styles (probably favoured and accepted into Omani style because of the large Hyderabadi influence in Muscat..traders and merchants. Whilst these are clearly weapons they were worn like other badge of office swords as Icons or Court Swords. Not fighting swords.

5. Karabela shaped hilts with Nimcha blades with and without quillons appear but are mainly Yemeni... with European blades etc. The hawkshead hilt has transmitted onto shorter blades for use on board ship as a slashing sword; some short others medium and could squeeze in on the cutlass design of ships styles..The shorter style used as a long utility knife.

6. Generally where a sword has no quillons and except in the case of the short weapons at 5 above, in other words where it has a long Omani Hilt it is not a combat weapon as such but a badge of office or court sword. That is not to say that it could not inflict serious damage but that it is not a fighting sword. The same can be said of the other court swords which do have quillons ... They are dress swords.

7. I have so far not identified any Bedawi weapons in Oman but the research is open ended and continues.

8. The Old Omani Battle Sword or Sayf Yamaani; Is The only true fighting sword of Oman; comprising a straight short blade, double edged, pointed, quillons, spiked pommel. The fighting sword of Oman originally arrived in 751 AD and as a Battle Sword with a Terrs Shield used until the late 19thC. therafter, also worn as an Icon usually on a Royal Hilt. Sometime probably in about 1750 or about the time of the Busaidi dynasty commencing the new dancing sword was invented taking over all duties in the Funoon range of pageant retaining the term Sayf and enhanced for mimic fighting purposes the Terrs shield.

9. Try as I may I find no relevance in your addition of a series of curved generally short weapons which in their current form are other countries swords not Omani. If they are placed to state that curved quillonless swords are weapons; that may well be the case elsewhere but on the Oman scene this is certainly not the case. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

""Salaams ~ I believe you may have misconstrued the research which is detailed and correct based upon Omani and UAE National Archive and Museum information, coupled with on site comprehensive research by myself and my team. The facts are neatly laid out and findings are there to see viz;""

I see nothing in your research that academically support the notion that Straight saif is dance only. If so, then correct me with a link or 2, there is no shame in that! :D

""1. The Omani flexible long hilted dancing sword is a dancing sword only and always has been.""

I dont agree. I dont see anything that supports this. Infact, even one of our senior members (Jim Macdougall) disagrees with this.

""2. Hybridised straight swords typically Red Sea variants with points and stiff blades placed on Omani long hilts and Omani scabbards are not favoured by Omanis for dancing (or anything else) and are classed as Tourist Swords being mainly conversions done in Muscat Souk and sold there since 1970.(according to the Muscat souk and workshops owners)""

an unproved claim. Nothing more nothing less. You are ignoring alot of evidence countering this.

""3. Hybridised curved blades of European or other manufacture placed on Omani long hilts are badge of office not battle swords though in their previous configuration they were probably weapons.""

Thanks for countering your own argument. Why would a dancing sword form (hilt) be used for a badge of office? it makes no sense when that can be used with a more formidable battle form. Like it always has been everywhere (shamshirs, kilijs, saifs etc maintaining their original war form even though they are just dress swords)

""6. Generally where a sword has no quillons and except in the case of the short weapons at 5 above, in other words where it has a long Omani Hilt it is not a combat weapon as such but a badge of office or court sword. That is not to say that it could not inflict serious damage but that it is not a fighting sword. The same can be said of the other court swords which do have quillons ... They are dress swords.""

So are you saying that khyber knives, yataghans, dhas, shashkas etc are just dress swords now?:P There is no evidence supporting that but hey, lets ignore the battles that jannisaries, cossaks and pashtu's fought in maybe they were all using Omani battle swords :D

""7. I have so far not identified any Bedawi weapons in Oman but the research is open ended and continues.""

You are strawmanning my use of the badawi analogy. But here you go:

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1007

""8. The Old Omani Battle Sword or Sayf Yamaani; Is The only true fighting sword of Oman; comprising a straight short blade, double edged, pointed, quillons, spiked pommel. The fighting sword of Oman originally arrived in 751 AD and as a Battle Sword with a Terrs Shield used until the late 19thC. therafter, also worn as an Icon usually on a Royal Hilt. Sometime probably in about 1750 or about the time of the Busaidi dynasty commencing the new dancing sword was invented taking over all duties in the Funoon range of pageant retaining the term Sayf and enhanced for mimic fighting purposes the Terrs shield.""

Sure, the Omani battle sword is pretty much what it is, a battle sword. But there are many weapons which do not have quillons, double edges, spiked pommels etc but are used in battle. I see no point in repeating this over and over again but your argument ignores ALOT of evidence.

""9. Try as I may I find no relevance in your addition of a series of curved generally short weapons which in their current form are other countries swords not Omani. If they are placed to state that curved quillonless swords are weapons; that may well be the case elsewhere but on the Oman scene this is certainly not the case.""

The shashka, the dha, the bedouin shashka, the central asia shashka are not short weapons. The yataghan and khyber knife sometimes are short. These are a proof that quillons are not 100% important for a sword to be a battle one and them being non-Omani is irrelevant.

[Iain]

I assume this was not directed at myself but rather at A.alnakkas...?

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams ~ I believe you may have misconstrued the research which is detailed and correct based upon Omani and UAE National Archive and Museum information, coupled with on site comprehensive research by myself and my team. The facts are neatly laid out and findings are there to see viz;

1. The Omani flexible long hilted dancing sword is a dancing sword only and always has been.

2. Hybridised straight swords typically Red Sea variants with points and stiff blades placed on Omani long hilts and Omani scabbards are not favoured by Omanis for dancing (or anything else) and are classed as Tourist Swords being mainly conversions done in Muscat Souk and sold there since 1970.(according to the Muscat souk and workshops owners)

3. Hybridised curved blades of European or other manufacture placed on Omani long hilts are badge of office not battle swords though in their previous configuration they were probably weapons.

4. Non hybridised Omani swords that include Zanzibari Nimcha and what we sometimes in Forum terms describe as Shamshir; That is those curved Persian, Safavid blades on typical cross hilts, designed originally by a Syrian master working for the Persian Royal Court and Hyderabadi similar styles (probably favoured and accepted into Omani style because of the large Hyderabadi influence in Muscat..traders and merchants. Whilst these are clearly weapons they were worn like other badge of office swords as Icons or Court Swords. Not fighting swords.

5. Karabela shaped hilts with Nimcha blades with and without quillons appear but are mainly Yemeni... with European blades etc. The hawkshead hilt has transmitted onto shorter blades for use on board ship as a slashing sword; some short others medium and could squeeze in on the cutlass design of ships styles..The shorter style used as a long utility knife.

6. Generally where a sword has no quillons and except in the case of the short weapons at 5 above, in other words where it has a long Omani Hilt it is not a combat weapon as such but a badge of office or court sword. That is not to say that it could not inflict serious damage but that it is not a fighting sword. The same can be said of the other court swords which do have quillons ... They are dress swords.

7. I have so far not identified any Bedawi weapons in Oman but the research is open ended and continues.

8. The Old Omani Battle Sword or Sayf Yamaani; Is The only true fighting sword of Oman; comprising a straight short blade, double edged, pointed, quillons, spiked pommel. The fighting sword of Oman originally arrived in 751 AD and as a Battle Sword with a Terrs Shield used until the late 19thC. therafter, also worn as an Icon usually on a Royal Hilt. Sometime probably in about 1750 or about the time of the Busaidi dynasty commencing the new dancing sword was invented taking over all duties in the Funoon range of pageant retaining the term Sayf and enhanced for mimic fighting purposes the Terrs shield.

9. Try as I may I find no relevance in your addition of a series of curved generally short weapons which in their current form are other countries swords not Omani. If they are placed to state that curved quillonless swords are weapons; that may well be the case elsewhere but on the Oman scene this is certainly not the case. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

""Salaams ~ I believe you may have misconstrued the research which is detailed and correct based upon Omani and UAE National Archive and Museum information, coupled with on site comprehensive research by myself and my team. The facts are neatly laid out and findings are there to see viz;""

I see nothing in your research that academically support the notion that Straight saif is dance only. If so, then correct me with a link or 2, there is no shame in that! :D

""1. The Omani flexible long hilted dancing sword is a dancing sword only and always has been.""

I dont agree. I dont see anything that supports this. Infact, even one of our senior members (Jim Macdougall) disagrees with this.



""2. Hybridised straight swords typically Red Sea variants with points and stiff blades placed on Omani long hilts and Omani scabbards are not favoured by Omanis for dancing (or anything else) and are classed as Tourist Swords being mainly conversions done in Muscat Souk and sold there since 1970.(according to the Muscat souk and workshops owners)""

an unproved claim. Nothing more nothing less. You are ignoring alot of evidence countering this.

""3. Hybridised curved blades of European or other manufacture placed on Omani long hilts are badge of office not battle swords though in their previous configuration they were probably weapons.""

Thanks for countering your own argument. Why would a dancing sword form (hilt) be used for a badge of office? it makes no sense when that can be used with a more formidable battle form. Like it always has been everywhere (shamshirs, kilijs, saifs etc maintaining their original war form even though they are just dress swords)

""6. Generally where a sword has no quillons and except in the case of the short weapons at 5 above, in other words where it has a long Omani Hilt it is not a combat weapon as such but a badge of office or court sword. That is not to say that it could not inflict serious damage but that it is not a fighting sword. The same can be said of the other court swords which do have quillons ... They are dress swords.""

So are you saying that khyber knives, yataghans, dhas, shashkas etc are just dress swords now?:P There is no evidence supporting that but hey, lets ignore the battles that jannisaries, cossaks and pashtu's fought in maybe they were all using Omani battle swords :D

""7. I have so far not identified any Bedawi weapons in Oman but the research is open ended and continues.""

You are strawmanning my use of the badawi analogy. But here you go:

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1007

""8. The Old Omani Battle Sword or Sayf Yamaani; Is The only true fighting sword of Oman; comprising a straight short blade, double edged, pointed, quillons, spiked pommel. The fighting sword of Oman originally arrived in 751 AD and as a Battle Sword with a Terrs Shield used until the late 19thC. therafter, also worn as an Icon usually on a Royal Hilt. Sometime probably in about 1750 or about the time of the Busaidi dynasty commencing the new dancing sword was invented taking over all duties in the Funoon range of pageant retaining the term Sayf and enhanced for mimic fighting purposes the Terrs shield.""

Sure, the Omani battle sword is pretty much what it is, a battle sword. But there are many weapons which do not have quillons, double edges, spiked pommels etc but are used in battle. I see no point in repeating this over and over again but your argument ignores ALOT of evidence.

""9. Try as I may I find no relevance in your addition of a series of curved generally short weapons which in their current form are other countries swords not Omani. If they are placed to state that curved quillonless swords are weapons; that may well be the case elsewhere but on the Oman scene this is certainly not the case.""

The shashka, the dha, the bedouin shashka, the central asia shashka are not short weapons. The yataghan and khyber knife sometimes are short. These are a proof that quillons are not 100% important for a sword to be a battle one and them being non-Omani is irrelevant.


Salaams ~ The documentary evidence contained in the National Herritage Document, The Craft Herritage of Oman at page 220, 222, 454 and 455 and in the National Museum of Muscat and in the National Museum at Al Ain in the UAE. Supporting detailed and qualifying evidence is contained at this thread in most of the 250 posts.

To be fair I know that this takes some believing not least by people who may think they have a genuine fighting Omani sword when in fact they have not.. As explained the dancing sword is not a fighting sword.

To be even fairer many people in history (visitors in the 19th C noted at thread) have been duped by the appearance of the broadsword like aspect, seemingly, a two handed battlesword and used by very agressive tribesmen in the mimic fight style but they were mistaken since it is only a pageantry sword.

Whilst this is not even made absolutely clear in the herritage book on Omani swords which tries to explain the nature of the wavy straight variant(another dancing type of Sayf essentially the same as the straight dancing sword but with a wavy blade) as having been bathed in blood, the authors use the clever wording It is said that meaning it is probably rumour only. Certainly the authors had not the time to spend months on retrieving the truth which is that these are not battle swords. The flexible Omani Straight Sayf (or the similar wavy variant) is a dancing sword only.

All the other details are as I have indicated and are included in the reference as proven. Where I have indicated they are capable of being weapons that is the case... Where they are badge of office that is fact. When I indicate tourist weapon or sword... that is what they are; confirmed by the workshop owner (and shop owners) in Muscat Souk that has converted them since about 1970. Where I speak about the Old Omani Battle Sword that can be seen at thread and in Omani UAE and Kuwait museums(they have one of ours). The only true Omani Battle Sword (also Iconic). The Sayf Yamaani.

I know that the long handled Omani curved Kattara looks formidable ~ It really does look like it could cause a lot of damage and it probably could but it is not a weapon ... It is a sword of Badge of Office..Only. That is its purpose in life. A dress sword. Bye the way I have also seen it waggled in the air at pageants but that is not its purpose. Badge of Office.

You confuse long hilt quillonless curved Omani Swords with other countries combat weapons. You may not believe this but This is simply not the case in Oman. Museum reference refers.

The Old Omani Sayf Yamaani Battlesword is a different case study and whilst it is the only really true Omani Battlesword it too was Iconised in the al Busaidi Dynasty being rehilted on the Royal hilt.. Thread refers.

With respect; the introduction by you of our Moderator Jim McDougalls name is a very unsatisfactory development, since, on this forum people do not "tend" to make up their minds during a thread process, moreover, they are free to comment, guide and steer and in the final analysis, may sway one way or the other... or remain unbiased.

As always, however, I am open to constructive criticism. :D

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

""Salaams ~ The documentary evidence contained in the National Herritage Document, The Craft Herritage of Oman at page 220, 222, 454 and 455 and in the National Museum of Muscat and in the National Museum at Al Ain in the UAE. Supporting detailed and qualifying evidence is contained at this thread in most of the 250 posts.""

I may have missed it, but dont remember anything about straight saifs being dance only from a museum? as far as I remember, you came up with this idea when you saw an ethiopian blade being "rehilted"

""You confuse long hilt quillonless curved Omani Swords with other countries combat weapons. You may not believe this but This is simply not the case in Oman. Museum reference refers.""

Your point about the quillons has nothing to do with countries. You deemed the saif not a combat weapon due to "being quillonless" and not due to being Omani. This is, as proven by alot of evidence to be nothing but hot air at best.

""With respect; the introduction by you of our Moderator Jim McDougalls name is a very unsatisfactory development, since, on this forum people do not "tend" to make up their minds during a thread process, moreover, they are free to comment, guide and steer and in the final analysis, may sway one way or the other... or remain unbiased.""

So citing that one of our most experienced members is in an agreement with me is a bad thing now?

Here is a quote from JM:

I also wanted to add some of my own perceptions thus far concerning the overall kattara discussions and for purpose of this thread, the sword in discussion.
I think this is a reasonably recently mounted, as noted, blade which to me resembles those which were prevalent in the trade into Red Sea and North Africa. It is of a 19thc. form usually associated with Solingen and found on many kaskara, and these seem to have been produced as 'blanks' for the purpose of export to these regions. In North Africa many were embellished with native versions of markings which had become prevalent, often from interpretations of earlier European markings. It would seem in this case, since the blade ended up in Omani context, the markings added would be of course with key forms important there.

I am not certain that I am as concerned with much of the terminology issues as clearly in most ethnographic weapons, these can be debated ad infinitum due to many variations, semantics, transliterations etc. Many of these weapons have come to be known by generally held collectors terms and colloquially described names, which in my opinion are probably easier to adhere to in discussions. Despite this case, it is of course best in my opinion to qualify descriptions, for example with the Moroccan 'nimcha' I usually call it the Moroccan sa'if commonly termed 'nimcha'. The 'hawkshead' denominator for these Arabian swords with karabela style hilts brought to our attention by Ibrahiim is intriguing and I had not been aware of that term. Here again, the 'karabela' is a hilt style associated with Turkey and East Europe, but has often been applied to certain sabres overall. Here the term 'hawkshead' becomes specific for an Arabian sabre with karabela style hilt.

As far as 'dancing' swords, I do believe that swords used are of the 'types' used in the context of general use whether combat or ceremonial, and am somewhat unconvinced that these would be made exclusively for these events. The 'Highland sword dance' is of course one example which typically uses the traditional basket hilt sword, many of which while having become ceremonially worn are actually quite capable of combat use. I have seen videos shared by a Beja tribesman of 'dances' using kaskara in Eritrea where these swords were fully combat ready. The 'duels' in Khevsuria use straight bladed 'pranguli' and are staged combat portrayal, yet the same swords can and have been used in actual duels with the expected result.

In my opinion, the cylindrical hilt of the Omani 'kattara' or straight bladed sa'if is fully capable of combat use, as well as for dancing events. In the sword we see here, the hilt is wrapped in leather, an often seen application in combat swords used through Arabia and by Bedouin into Sinai regions as well as certainly many other regional possibilities. It is important to note that flexibility is important in combat blades in order to properly absorb impact and transference of energy is an important dynamic. If too rigid the blade will break, and there are many deadly blades which can flex up to 90 degrees (the 'urumi' of North Malabar in Kerala, India is one extreme example). In blades of the crusades one key factor noted, and I have handled one of these, is the thinness and flexibility of the blade. With regard to the spatulated or rounded tips, this feature is commonly seen on straight swords which are used primarily in slashing cuts and is well known on many European sword blades. These rounded tips are also of course key to the Saharan takouba broadswords, where slashing cuts are preferred.

Regarding the spike on the hilts of some of these Omani sa'if, it is my opinion, as discussed over a year ago, that this conical pommel may allude to architectural renderings such as the top of the minaret. It is well established that many features incorporated into various hilts reflect important architectural elements especially of Mosques and temples, and the tulwar hilt actually is believed to reflect the stupa. I do not believe that the 'spike' shape would be effective in combat, and these features have often had these suggestions, for example the spiked Prussian 'pickelhaube' helmets of WWI, which has never been proven used as such. It is known however that 'pommeling' or striking with the sword pommel does occur, but not enought for this feature to be spiked for such purpose.

While those observations admittedly deviate in degree, I return to noting that Brian's kattara is certainly a solid example of a Red Sea blade probably from Germany and marked with talismanically oriented images. With this I would say it was likely intended for tribal wear, and would have served in combat if required, however as in most cases, these were worn as elements of tribal costume and not necessarily battle weapons, nor specifically for the ceremonial events.

I do understand that the sound making and vibration of the blade was key in the alyaalha, and that there may well have been blades made in Oman to accentuate that feature. In this case, swords with these blades may well have existed contemporarily to these straight kattara, but I am not certain that they can necessarily be classed separately.

It can be found here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15113 (Post 21)

Regardless, I rest my case, because you, my good friend Ibrahim so far have been repeating your assumptions without any effort in deconstructing my replies. You also have engaged in fallacies and misrepresenting reality when you refered to Swords as knives to support your case.

Keep in mind that I have absolutely nothing to lose or gain with Straight saifs being whatever they are but the evidence to support your conclusion was less then weak, it was ridiculous :D

[Jim McDougall]

I would like to clarify something here......my last post as I indicated at the beginning of its text, were 'my own perceptions' concerning various elements of our'discussion. The very reason it was not addressed to any specific participant is that is was its clear intent, to state my own positions, not anyone elses. I emphatically resent the implication that I favor any party in, or do I want any part of personality charged debate between members. Here I will also emphatically note that these discussions will leave out personal issues between members and hold to presenting information or opinions and observations without unnecessary comments or remarks.
We are better than this guys, and we are here to advance knowledge..it is not a contest.

This thread has been an excellent foray into the deeply clouded history of these fascinating swords, and I very much respect the field work being undertaken by Ibrahiim in Oman, as well as the cultural knowledge held by Lofty who is situated in Kuwait. I have learned a great deal thus far in these proceedings as I have been inspired to dig deeper into my own notes and resources augmented by the great information presented by them and others who have participated here.
As has been noted, myself as well as other forum members do respond to material presented and well supported and the very purpose of our discussions which indeed does often result in changes of opinion and revised data.

I think that the idea of dance swords being separate from combat swords is of course quite likely in modern times and with the well known production of swords for the souvenier markets. However, I believe that swords of the classification 'kattara' as generally held in term, but as we have determined are often called by the collective term sa'if, were in earlier times capable of the dynamics used in both combat and dance.

In "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (Robert Elgood, 1994, p.16), he notes, citing J.R.Wellstead ("Travels in Arabia", 1838) large groups of men performing the war dance, and they parry neither with sword nor shield but avoid blows by leaping or bounding backwards. The blade of thier sword is three feet in length, straight, thin, double edged and as sharp as a razor. As they carry it upright before them, by a peculiar motion of thier wrist they cause it to vibrate in a vary singular manner, which has a singularly striking effect when they are assembled in any considerable number.

Op.cit.p.16, the author James Fraser ("Narrative of a Journey into Khorasan in the Years 1821 and 1822", repr Delhi, 1984) cites a visit to the Omani garrison at Ormuz. The troops had a broadsword and target similar to those of Highlanders, ..."some made in Yemen, but greater part are procured from Egypt, whither they are brought from different parts of the Meditteranean. Many are seen with the Solingen mark, many with Andrea Ferrara marks.
These swords are sharp and thin and previous to making use of them in attack, they make them quiver and ring in the hand with a jerk, while held in an upright position and then charge with loud shouts".

Here I would point out that the swords from Egypt are likely those used in kaskara and takouba variably, and from my understanding many of these blades are remarkably flexible. I think that the degree of vibration with different blades of course may cause variation in the effects audibly, but the larger number would be capable of the desired vibratory effect somewhat.
In Elgood (fig. 2.16) a 'long hilt' Omani sa'if is shown and noted to have a locally produced blade of 18th-19th c. which strongly resembles the German type imports.

On p.33 (op.cit.) author B.Thomas ("Arabia Felix" , 1938) notes that "...the Omani use thier swords in tribal dancing and make the blade quiver. The so called 'halab' blades are best for this".
It is further noted in this reference that the author attended the Razif in Doha, Qatar held to celebrate victory in Gulf war and noticed many tribes from other areas of Arabia did the same.

I think that it would be productive to continue the discussion using these reference notes as observed and cited by the respected arms author and historian Robert Elgood along with the material assembled thus far, and perhaps look into further descriptions of the noted 'halab' type blade.

Lets take this thread to its full potential in establishing the history, development and understanding of these important swords and leave behind the unnecessary positioning OK guys?

Thank you so much, and with respect,
Jim

[A.alnakkas]

Hello Guys,

I just wanted to say that when I quoted Jim I had no intention of making any sort of positioning. To me, it was like quoting a book or any other external source. As Jim's knowledge far preceed many of us! :D so I apologize if I came out that way and.. Maybe this would push Jim to write a book so we can quote him all we want! :-)

Imho, this discussion is a positive one and we should be open to any possibility that evidence points to. After all, I think many of us collect these items as works of art regardless of their original purpose.

Thanks for the quotes Jim, I think this evidence would support that straight saif is a combat weapon.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Jim, Your advice and points of detail are respected and in particular upon the final instructions to get on with the research. I was particularly interested in the Hormuz and other visitors to Oman. I posted on# 164 a precis of such visitors activity viz

1.In 1878 a Mr Geary (editor of the Times of India) visited Muscat and wrote of the weapons he saw carried by locals ~ A favourite weapon is a straight broad two-handed sword, the sweep of which would take off a man's thigh or even cut him in two at the waist.The swordsmen carried over their shoulder small shields of rhinoceros horn 8 or 9 inches in diameter....

2.Captain James Welstead in 1835 at Jalaan Bani Bu Ali (on the Eastern edge of the Wahaybah) remarked on the Funoon, Razha, sword parade and dance that the blades of their swords are 3 feet in length, straight, thin, double edged and as sharp as a razor.

3.Mr Frazer who also visited Hormuz in 1821 (and Oman at the same time as Welstead in about 1835) described The Omani Garrison at Hormuz swords as similar to Scotish Broadswords and also described separately in Oman later the Ters buckler shields..

It is, however, those visitors remarks ( At para 1 and 2 above) that part cloud the issue since they were on scene for perhaps minutes or hours as onlookers rather than fully focussed on precise research on the subject of this dancing sword. In the case of the other (At para 3) could it be that he was viewing the Omani Short Battle Sword since it too looks like a Scotish Broadsword to the untrained eye and in the hands of quite physically small Omani men ? It is also possible that both visitors (1 and 3) were looking at the Old Battle Sword or the dancing sword~ it is not clear. It is however placed as a reference.

Co-incidentally I was researching a book detail last night and reccommend to Forum Ian Skeets Oman Before 1970. The End of an Era. (actually a rewrite of Muscat and Oman which was a far better tittle as it describes in 3 words the immense difference between the Coastal belt Omanis and the Interior Omanis in history.

This is a masterful work full of incredible detail and with an eye on the virtually mediaeval state of the country only about 50 years ago with anecdotes on its ancient history quite new to me. He very much is aware of the mythical nature of Oman and the fables and pure storytelling that has gone on down the ages.

In one such story an amazing fact has surfaced concerning the Saif Yamaani (The Old Omani Battle Sword) and its possible manufacturing base.

In Omani History there is a story about Malik bin Fahm the founder of Oman who originally lived in Yemen. One day one of the tribesmen complained that one of Maliks men had killed his dog. Malik was mortified and complained that this was an outragious insult and that he would leave the country immediately~ and joined by a large party of his followers he duly did... East to Oman. A fanciful reason to leave notes the author however that the likely reason in fact was the collapse of the Mehrab dam. In truth the dam did burst however more gradually than is imagined and could have taken 300 years to finally become useless...There may well have been a large early exodus and at the same time a gradual follow on..over 3 centuries. Dog or no dog Malik left "in what they say" was the second century a.d. On arrival near Nizwa Malik became aware that the Persians were centred in Sohar and other garrisons and wrote to the Marzaban(Persian Governor) giving him notice of his intent to settle in Oman and if he didn't like the idea they would have a battle... To cut a long story short there were several battles in which the Persians were completely routed elephants 40,000 men and all..after which the Omanis settled on a happy ever after note and Malik lived til he was 120.

His spirit is alive in that region today and people of the Azdite or Yemeni tribes will swear he was their great great grandfather in a bewildering mathematical exercise depending on their imagination... however, that is not important... Malik is.

He was decended from the Azd tribe as part of the Qahtan line of Arab ancestry tribes usually referred to as Yemeni in that they settled in Yemen. The other line from Adnan originally settled in northern Arabia and referred to as Nizari. Both lines settled in Oman; Malik bin Fahms Yemeni Azdites being one of the settlements in that line. As timelines go that puts us somewhere in the mid 2nd century to the mid 4th allowing for myth and legend and history mixed...So what does this have to do with swords...?

Near Nizwa, the often capital of the Interior, and later seat of Ibadiism, and a production area for copper and iron objects where the bellows was an early discovery in furnace production, is a small town called Izki; one of the oldest Omani towns. One of its quarters is called Yemen. Another is called Nizar even to this day. Each belongs to the direct decendant tribe Beni Ruwaha and Beni Riyam; Qahtani and Nizari direct decendants !

Later the Omanis rose up under Immam Julanda against the Iraqi garrisons subjugating the country in about 751 a.d. that the weapons they used were called Sayf Yamaani The Old Omani Battle Swords. It is postulated that they were made not in The Yemen but near Nizwa at Izki in the quarter called Yemen. Research in that direction is ongoing. :shrug:

I further submit that the reference book Oman before 1970 The End of an Era, by Ian Skeet, be logged with research and for bibliography.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Gentlemen thank you so much for your understanding and agreement that the discussion itself here is paramount and must be carried forward most productively without polarities. Thank you very much for the kind words Lofty, however my 'knowledge' is simply a compendium of that of others which is gathered over the time I spend in researching in order to write here. As I haved noted, I learn from the valuable input of members here and assemble material and observations collectively to form my own perspectives, which can and often will readjust according to degrees of plausibility with information at hand.

The quotes I provided are of course compelling in suggesting that the straight sa'if commonly termed in most references the 'kattara' has indeed been a combat weapon in its well established configuration. The reason I placed these references is that in the study of arms, as I was once told, a writers responsibility is to present not only his views in supporting his theories or thesis, but those opposing as well in order for the reader to properly evaluate the material.

As Ibrahiim has well pointed out, these venerable narratives may have been impressions perceived in less than optimum circumstances for establishing broadly based opinions or observations. While they offer the implications that these swords had blades which did indeed vibrate in accord with the dynamics of the war dance as well as serve in combat, the comments concerning the nature of them only vaguely suggests that imported trade blades were among the weapons seen, not necessarily all of them.

I would however note here in the comments by Mr. Fraser suggesting the comparison of the Omani swords to those of the Scottish Highlander would seem to be to be referring to the baskethilt broadsword, but I believe the comments were directed to the blade, and of course not the hilt. What I believe was meant was that the appearance of the blades in thier profile, size and even in many of the markings on them pointed toward thier being like those produced in Germany for the Scottish swords. Mr. Fraser clearly was familiar with Scottish broadswords as his mention of the 'Andrea Ferrara' marking was a specific not commonly known in general parlance concerning these swords beyond those who had actually seen and handled them.
Having considered these facts, we simply cannot determine which type of hilt the Omani's had mounted on these blades, only that the blades used were apparantly in large degree German imports, and appear to have had the capability to vibrate in accord with the action seen in the swords used in the war dance.

I have tried to learn more on the term 'halab' as used in Elgood to describe blades as previously mentioned, however it seems most references such as Stone etc. claim it refers to a Sikh type sword in India. That reference is of course vague in itself as there are actually no specific sword types attributed to Sikh use alone. I am wondering if the term may have been adopted to refer to a blade with characteristics of types which had come from India and had become used in that parlance in Arabia?

Thank you again guys,
All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Gentlemen thank you so much for your understanding and agreement that the discussion itself here is paramount and must be carried forward most productively without polarities. Thank you very much for the kind words Lofty, however my 'knowledge' is simply a compendium of that of others which is gathered over the time I spend in researching in order to write here. As I haved noted, I learn from the valuable input of members here and assemble material and observations collectively to form my own perspectives, which can and often will readjust according to degrees of plausibility with information at hand.

The quotes I provided are of course compelling in suggesting that the straight sa'if commonly termed in most references the 'kattara' has indeed been a combat weapon in its well established configuration. The reason I placed these references is that in the study of arms, as I was once told, a writers responsibility is to present not only his views in supporting his theories or thesis, but those opposing as well in order for the reader to properly evaluate the material.

As Ibrahiim has well pointed out, these venerable narratives may have been impressions perceived in less than optimum circumstances for establishing broadly based opinions or observations. While they offer the implications that these swords had blades which did indeed vibrate in accord with the dynamics of the war dance as well as serve in combat, the comments concerning the nature of them only vaguely suggests that imported trade blades were among the weapons seen, not necessarily all of them.

I would however note here in the comments by Mr. Fraser suggesting the comparison of the Omani swords to those of the Scottish Highlander would seem to be to be referring to the baskethilt broadsword, but I believe the comments were directed to the blade, and of course not the hilt. What I believe was meant was that the appearance of the blades in thier profile, size and even in many of the markings on them pointed toward thier being like those produced in Germany for the Scottish swords. Mr. Fraser clearly was familiar with Scottish broadswords as his mention of the 'Andrea Ferrara' marking was a specific not commonly known in general parlance concerning these swords beyond those who had actually seen and handled them.
Having considered these facts, we simply cannot determine which type of hilt the Omani's had mounted on these blades, only that the blades used were apparantly in large degree German imports, and appear to have had the capability to vibrate in accord with the action seen in the swords used in the war dance.

I have tried to learn more on the term 'halab' as used in Elgood to describe blades as previously mentioned, however it seems most references such as Stone etc. claim it refers to a Sikh type sword in India. That reference is of course vague in itself as there are actually no specific sword types attributed to Sikh use alone. I am wondering if the term may have been adopted to refer to a blade with characteristics of types which had come from India and had become used in that parlance in Arabia?

Thank you again guys,
All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ last point first ~HALAB the old name or original Arab name for Aleppo in Syria. viz Aleppo is the common modern-day English name for the city. It was known in antiquity as Khalpe, Khalibon,[12] and to the Greeks and Romans as Beroea (Βέροια). During the Crusades, and again during the French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon, the name Alep was used: "Aleppo" is an Italianised version of this.

The ancient name of the city, Halab, is also its Arabic name in the modern day. It is of obscure origin. Some have proposed that Halab means 'iron' or 'copper' in Amorite languages since it was a major source of these metals in antiquity. Halaba in Aramaic means white, referring to the color of soil and marble abundant in the area. Another proposed etymology is that the name Halab means "gave out milk," coming from the ancient tradition that Abraham gave milk to travelers as they moved throughout the region.[13] The colour of his cows was ashen (Arab. shaheb); therefore the city is also called Halab ash-Shahba ("he milked the ash-coloured").

Whereas I cannot find precise information about Omani blades from there it would make sense that there were some perhaps in the Shamshir variety and as a concoction of swords also through Iran since the Shamshir of Safavid form was made by a famous Iraqi swordsmith in the Safavid royal court and his stamp typically copied down the ages.

On the subject of the witnesses in the 19th C in and around Oman and Hormuz I agree that it is interesting but hugely difficult to substantiate and would ask that caution be duly observed. I find it odd that on a single visit a sword blade mark could be identified such as "Solingen" or "andrea ferrera" (probably in style) by someone unaccustomed to the traditions and idiosyncracies in Omani sword work... Perhaps like others (e.g.Burton?) there has been a tendency to embelish a story later? Perhaps he saw one straight variant (the dancing Sword ) or two ( e.g. Also The Old Omani Battle Sword) ? I think at best we can only hold these anecdotes up and hope a light shines through them at some future researched point.

It occured to me when I was researching claymore swords and as a spin off on the European Forum delving into Falchion and Malchus I ended up on a forum search looking at Italian blades and how strikingly similar they were to some straight Red Sea blades I have seen hilted on Omani long hilts. Schiovana blades.

As observed I can report no clear link (as yet) for Omani dancing blades to European factories though I believe a good reference is available on the subject.(German Sword Makers?) I have only identified local manufacture and some itinerant work by Zutoot and pre about 1970. All my references outline dance not war though the Museum mentions European blades it is not specific and could simply be referring to curved Kattara blades. I dont have the Elgood straight sword picture and wondered if that could be published here please?

I am sifting through the book by Ian Skeet on Oman before 1970 and turned up another small gem regarding the Khojas of Muscat... a trader network of families now itegrated into Omani Society along with The Baluch and Persian Baharina. The Khojas are Hyderabadi leading merchant class. ( Thus the Hyderabad swords linkage could be clear) Without these now integrated groups and of course the Indian contingency, Oman before 1970 would have ground to a halt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Notes;
1. Halab detail courtesy Wiki encyclopaedia.
2. Khojas detail etc courtesy Ian Skeet. Oman before 1970.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim,

I don't think you can count on all dealers reading the threads here. ;)

To be completely honest I think you are playing with semantics at this point by wanting to focus on the hilt and not the sword overall. Agreed the hilt was quite probably not made for this particular blade.

I know you have your definitions for what constitutes an Omani sword or not but this is where those definitions are problematic in my opinion. This is a sword, for Omanis put together by an Omani and if the blade is European that doesn't change what this is in the least to me. It's an Omani saif.

By the logic you are using quite a number of my takouba are simply takouba hilts on European blades. Same goes for kaskara and many other ethnic weapons from Africa and Asia.

I've spent enough time in this thread pointing out European bladed examples and I know your arguments for how to classify them, so I don't think either of us needs to spend time retyping it all. :)

I find this example very interesting and I would assume there are more of them out there. It would be interesting to find a hilt made for one of these blades, it would not surprise me to find one as obviously there was no problem locally to accept such blades.

Frankly I think this also throws into question the idea that the European blades turning up in modern mounts are exclusively from outside Omani use and simply remounted for tourists. Judging by this there was no issue to use European blades even in the Old Style hilts. :)

Cheers,

Iain



Salaams Iain, Apologies as I missed this post ... I have no problem with this sword as a weapon at all... though I have no actual proof that it was done for Omanis by Omanis but it may have been. Equally it could have been done elsewhere..For sure its a german blade and I have one similar but with the more typical mediaeval styling and fullering. I know one ancient blade that has been coupled onto an Omani hilt on this thread at # 228 and #229 and I know who did the work and why. Whilst there are perhaps original conversions out there (based on the spoils of war winner takes all ) there are also commercial reasons for knocking out complete switch rounds as they occur. Muscat has been doing this "prolific and sustained" for almost 5 decades. I would be remiss for not pointing this out. That is why I say this is an Omani Old Battle Sword Hilt with an Ethiopian blade of German origin.

Your last paragraph assumes a lot more than I am prepared to' since you may have confused the matching of outside blades onto Omani long hilts which as you know I have placed in different category to weapons being either dancing swords in terms of the straight flexible sayf and more or less Iconic dress swords in the case of the curved and various Kattara though some I agree (those with quillons) can be weapons... We know the discussion etc etc The point being that I am certain that the Red Sea stiff blades are not dancing swords not favoured by Omanis and therefor tourist swords... Ironically they were probably weapons before being re-matched re-hilted.

An interesting question arrises over origin of the Red Sea stiff blades as undoubtably many are German (Solingen) however some look like Italian Schiovana. Loads of blades and swords have arrived over the years from the Yemen and have been rehilted in Muscat...I have two ethiopian blades German origin hilted on Indian Tulvar hilts (In Muscat) I know for sure that Omani men discard immediately a stiff blade as unworkable since they dont buzz..for dancing. I witness this daily in my own store as do my friends that own stores in Muttrah though in reverse since they sell lots of them... to tourists. One of our best friends in Muttrah and his father before him stretching back to 1970 have sold hundreds of these mixed "cousins"... They ought to know since it was (and is) their workshop that fitted them up with Omani hilts. Consequently in interior Oman and souks other than Muttrah(and possibly Nizwa thesedays) these Red Sea Cousins mis-matched onto Omani hilts do not appear ! They are totally tourist swords. This is not to say that this in any way influences or changes how swords in other countries are viewed by their own people... Its only the Omani viewpoint I express... and supported by the National Archives and 3 million Omani people :D

It further occured to me that people have missed a couple of important details in that the original Omani Battle Sword in that its origin as a design I have shown is 751 ad (The first Immam Ibn Julanda etc etc ) but that it continued to be used but more importantly repaired, broken and renewed down the ages somewhere...and its name Sayf Yamaani could give a clue ( I discovered a place near Nizwa called Yemen.. Maybe thats the spot... or Yemen Hadramaut... we dont know.. This is the only true Omani Battle Sword that I can identify. The Sayf Yamaani. It still gets the Icon treatment even today... We have one in our own workshops being done right now... for me !

The second point is that swords were not the main battlefield weapon ..The Spear .. Unfortunately it has dropped off the radar but only since I have been unable to get to that subject and the information has been scarce because it is almost forgotten... Its fall from grace courtesy of gunpowder and failure to be continued as Iconic ( rather impractical !) have allowed it to sink into obscurity. Therein lies the main battlefield weapon of Oman before gunpowder eventually ousted it..


Regarding hilts .. As its a straight blade there are no problems with hilts ... Most of the 20 or so swords I have had through my hands didnt have them or the hilts were recent (50 to 100 years) I have one complete in the TRM in Kuwait through our store we used to have in al ain.
Thank you for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Hi Ibrahiim,

Yes I was actually thinking of the swords from posts #228 and 229. Specifically the two Old Style hilts on European blades. European blades are obviously known in the old mounts. (I'd be careful with that 751A.D. date still.. But I've said that more than a few times already! :D).

I don't disagree with anything you've written regarding the new style mounts and Omani preferences for dance swords. My interest is still in the transitional phase between the two saif styles. Obviously the amount of reworking old blades into hilts for the last 50 years or so, makes things difficult to puzzle out.

Good point about the primary weapons, actually if you recall a few pages back in this thread I suggested the rise of firearms probably lead to the dance style blades as the sword decreased in actual battlefield importance.


Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain, Apologies as I missed this post ... I have no problem with this sword as a weapon at all... though I have no actual proof that it was done for Omanis by Omanis but it may have been. Equally it could have been done elsewhere..For sure its a german blade and I have one similar but with the more typical mediaeval styling and fullering. I know one ancient blade that has been coupled onto an Omani hilt on this thread at # 228 and #229 and I know who did the work and why. Whilst there are perhaps original conversions out there (based on the spoils of war winner takes all ) there are also commercial reasons for knocking out complete switch rounds as they occur. Muscat has been doing this "prolific and sustained" for almost 5 decades. I would be remiss for not pointing this out. That is why I say this is an Omani Old Battle Sword Hilt with an Ethiopian blade of German origin.

Your last paragraph assumes a lot more than I am prepared to' since you may have confused the matching of outside blades onto Omani long hilts which as you know I have placed in different category to weapons being either dancing swords in terms of the straight flexible sayf and more or less Iconic dress swords in the case of the curved and various Kattara though some I agree (those with quillons) can be weapons... We know the discussion etc etc The point being that I am certain that the Red Sea stiff blades are not dancing swords not favoured by Omanis and therefor tourist swords... Ironically they were probably weapons before being re-matched re-hilted.

An interesting question arrises over origin of the Red Sea stiff blades as undoubtably many are German (Solingen) however some look like Italian Schiovana. Loads of blades and swords have arrived over the years from the Yemen and have been rehilted in Muscat...I have two ethiopian blades German origin hilted on Indian Tulvar hilts (In Muscat) I know for sure that Omani men discard immediately a stiff blade as unworkable since they dont buzz..for dancing. I witness this daily in my own store as do my friends that own stores in Muttrah though in reverse since they sell lots of them... to tourists. One of our best friends in Muttrah and his father before him stretching back to 1970 have sold hundreds of these mixed "cousins"... They ought to know since it was (and is) their workshop that fitted them up with Omani hilts. Consequently in interior Oman and souks other than Muttrah(and possibly Nizwa thesedays) these Red Sea Cousins mis-matched onto Omani hilts do not appear ! They are totally tourist swords. This is not to say that this in any way influences or changes how swords in other countries are viewed by their own people... Its only the Omani viewpoint I express... and supported by the National Archives and 3 million Omani people :D

It further occured to me that people have missed a couple of important details in that the original Omani Battle Sword in that its origin as a design I have shown is 751 ad (The first Immam Ibn Julanda etc etc ) but that it continued to be used but more importantly repaired, broken and renewed down the ages somewhere...and its name Sayf Yamaani could give a clue ( I discovered a place near Nizwa called Yemen.. Maybe thats the spot... or Yemen Hadramaut... we dont know.. This is the only true Omani Battle Sword that I can identify. The Sayf Yamaani. It still gets the Icon treatment even today... We have one in our own workshops being done right now... for me !

The second point is that swords were not the main battlefield weapon ..The Spear .. Unfortunately it has dropped off the radar but only since I have been unable to get to that subject and the information has been scarce because it is almost forgotten... Its fall from grace courtesy of gunpowder and failure to be continued as Iconic ( rather impractical !) have allowed it to sink into obscurity. Therein lies the main battlefield weapon of Oman before gunpowder eventually ousted it..


Regarding hilts .. As its a straight blade there are no problems with hilts ... Most of the 20 or so swords I have had through my hands didnt have them or the hilts were recent (50 to 100 years) I have one complete in the TRM in Kuwait through our store we used to have in al ain.
Thank you for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim,

Yes I was actually thinking of the swords from posts #228 and 229. Specifically the two Old Style hilts on European blades. European blades are obviously known in the old mounts. (I'd be careful with that 751A.D. date still.. But I've said that more than a few times already! :D).

I don't disagree with anything you've written regarding the new style mounts and Omani preferences for dance swords. My interest is still in the transitional phase between the two saif styles. Obviously the amount of reworking old blades into hilts for the last 50 years or so, makes things difficult to puzzle out.

Good point about the primary weapons, actually if you recall a few pages back in this thread I suggested the rise of firearms probably lead to the dance style blades as the sword decreased in actual battlefield importance.


Cheers,

Iain


Salaams Iain ~ I have the match dates of these weapons at # 228 and 229 from the Muttrah workshop owner and it is about 2000; only 12 years ago... They came as blades from Yemen. They roughly follow the Sayf Yamaani style in one case the centre sword whilst at top the long hilt is Solingen ...and done for a tourist ( I actually know the tourist owner!) The weak lower blade at reference is a possible contender as a replacement for the Omani Battlesword from European sources but is as yet unsubstantiated. At the same time I am aware of the weight of evidence that suggests the European trade Blade influx everywhere from the Museums through to respected volumes on Islamic Swords. It is like looking at UFOs ! Every one of the interloper blades falls short on fact. They are either fitted as tourist weapons as late as last week ! and have come down the red sea and been rehilted often in Muttrah sucking in blades from Yemen and sucking in tourists in the souk !

Having said that; should evidence of a Trade Blade appear I will be the first to publish the fact to forum... as yet ... nothing.

Last week we had the copywright people in here and "lo and behold" Oman will stamp soon all Omani work from a date to be confirmed but that is hundreds of years too late years for this weapon and others though occasionally you get a signature on old Khanjars. There is one sword with a circular stamp that I can't decipher and I thought the Forum owner would have responded but to no avail as yet. I believe the centre of manufacture was Nizwa and its nearby town of Izki offers some clues as posted previously. Could it be that Sayf Yamaani = Izki Near Nizwa in the quarter called Yemen and predating Islam by about 400 years with that name.

As you know; I view the fighting weapon and the dancing weapon quite differently and it is in the transitional period ( pure guesswork at this point) that things get interesting. Was it 1744 / 1799 the bracket of time in which the Busaidi dynasty took control or before or after? Was it Yaruuba; the previous dynasty? Is it neither and associated only with the Funoon and therefor the Ibaathi seat at Nizwa? When did the Old Battle Sword succumb or give over its possition in the Funoon to the new flexible Sayf wa Ters?

At whatever date ... say circa 1750ad for argument sake (though its a guess) the design was approved for a non fighting pageantry sword. The Old Battle sword continued as a weapon but faded on the pageant side being superceded, however, it was adopted as an Iconic dress sword with the royal hilt as at thread...# 211... to date ! We know who instigated the Royal Hilt Khanjar and when so it is likely the two hilts happened together. They are virtually identical. Therefor we have the date of both the Royal Khanjar and the Omani Battle Swords Iconisation.

The question arrises on replacement blades on the Omani Battle Swords (Sayf Yamaani) In the biggest collections of these weapons comprising between 20 and 30 weapons each ... there are no thin replacement blades of European nature. Rumour has it that a skinny quite useless blade appeared from Europe (17th C ?)... and this is born out by at least one collector who simply refused to have that type in his collection. I have pictured a peculiar couple of swords in Muscat one of which may be the style being talked about. Some replacement european blades look very meaty and as in the case of your German trade blade seem to fit the bill. As to accuracy/authenticity or if we are being duped?... I caution beware. The answers are still out there...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain ~ I am not convinced that 228 and 229 are European .On the contrary they are Omani and regtettably cant be proven as such as they dont have an Omani stamp. They simply follow the Sayf Yamaani style and as I have compared to the Abbasid earlier etc etc. Last week we had the copywright people in here and "lo and behold" Oman will stamp soon all Omani work from a date to be confirmed but that is hundreds of years too late years for this weapon and others though occasionally you get a signature. There is one sword with a circular stamp that I can't decipher and I thought the owner would have responded but to no avail. I believe the centre of manufacture was Nizwa and its nearby town of Izki offers some clues as posted previously.

#229, the triple fullered short blade... Doesn't look like any Omani blade I've seen before. If it was, it would be flat like all the other older saif blades...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

#229, the triple fullered short blade... Doesn't look like any Omani blade I've seen before. If it was, it would be flat like all the other older saif blades...


Salaams Iain ~ Yes I agree however it is a very nice sword ... They matched that very recently. :rolleyes: I would have that in my collection any day but it is an interloper. A great example of a fake match up. Classic ! It also has the passau wolf mark though these are commonly faked here. I reckon its some sort of European blade scooped up in the Yemen souks for Muttrah rehilt and sale ... Someone will walk away with what they think is a genuine Omani Battle Sword...It aint ! such is life. :shrug:
Omani Battle Swords aren't flat.. moreover, they are a peculiar broad wing shape in cross section making them quite powerful weapons actually..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

I see now you edited your original post, interesting, that it's a recent match, that info wasn't included the first time you'd posted images of the sword so I'd assumed your impression was it was an old mount.

So just to clarify it's not only blades being mounted in new style hilts, but also the old style hilts as well.... Makes you wonder what they are taking the old hilt off of...

Salaams Iain ~ Yes I agree however it is a very nice sword ... They matched that very recently. :rolleyes: I would have that in my collection any day but it is an interloper. A great example of a fake match up. Classic ! It also has the passau wolf mark though these are commonly faked here. I reckon its some sort of European blade scooped up in the Yemen souks for Muttrah rehilt and sale ... Someone will walk away with what they think is a genuine Omani Battle Sword...It aint ! such is life. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I see now you edited your original post, interesting, that it's a recent match, that info wasn't included the first time you'd posted images of the sword so I'd assumed your impression was it was an old mount.

So just to clarify it's not only blades being mounted in new style hilts, but also the old style hilts as well.... Makes you wonder what they are taking the old hilt off of...


Salaams Iain; Oh yes absolutely...Sayf Yamaani. I was after a few hilt only items as I had some Old hilt parts but incomplete... The hilt is in two halves and often I come across half a hilt and as can be seen in the picture there is a half a hilt so they have the same problem... They had a few spare hilts a few months ago... and one you can see matched onto the triple fuller job... I rang them up following my post on the subject and asked when they did the work ... very recent was the reply.

The more I delve into Schiavona blades the more I suspect that blade being a fit for some worked onto Omani long hilts masquerading as dancing swords.. See Schiavona for comments #9 last photo ; at the European forum.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

This continues to be a fascinating discussion, and Ibrahiim thank you for the information on the 'halab' blade designation.

I wanted to note with regard to the narrative quotes I included in my earlier posts from contact with Omani forces by Mr. Fraser. While his visit may have been brief, it would seem that details such as the mention of Solingen marks and the Andrea Ferara would not have been included if not actually seen. In a cursory observation, as far as I have seen, such specific details would not have been noted as the comparison to Highland broadswords alone would have sufficed. As I mentioned, I would suspect Mr. Fraser had first hand knowledge of these swords, and while clearly a presumption, it is worthy of note that his name is from a prominent Scottish clan.

I am curious on the most commonly seen cross section on the old battle sayf yemani described as wing shape, would this mean lenticular? and presumably with fuller (s).

I have been doing some research on the flexibility of the German blades and in "Reports on the Paris Universal Exhibition" (1867) Vol.4, pp.179-80 the 'Report on Portable Arms' by Capt. V.D.Majendie, R.A. notes:
"...as however the flexibility of a blade depends after its quality, upon its transverse section and as Solingen exhibits swords which will bend almost around a mans body, it would seem as though all the flexibility that could possibly be desired can be obtained without any admixture of iron".

It would seem that these Solingen blades, many of which were destined to many markets throughout Europe, reflect the flexible nature of the Solingen blades apparantly present at this time, probably before and later as well.
Egerton (1885) describes an Arab sword from Sudan, presumably actually a kaskara, with 3 foot long blade of flexible steel believed European and probably from Solingen. It is known that in the 1780s in England during the so called 'sword scandals' with English blades vs. German imports, much of the testing on the blades was on the flexibility.

The questions remain... were the blades seen in these early reports on Omani broadswords German imports; were they combat reliable; and equally were they able to produce the vibrations and sound desired for the 'war dance'? While thus far we have said that German import blades were too stiff for dance swords, however it seems accounts of the German blades indicate good flexibility.

It is thought than one of the primary entrepots for these German import blades was Egypt, as it had been from earlier times, in the period of these narrarives as well. There are accounts of German blades being sold at the Shendy center in northern Sudan in 1814, suggesting these blades coming into these regions from Red Sea trade. These trade networks also sent blades into Arabia usually via Yemen, with caravans eastward.

I am somewhat doubtful of the potential for schiavona blades, though it is tempting to consider some of the early blades might have entered North Africa. What is important to note here however is that these 'schiavona' were primarily backswords, that is single edged. I do not believe a single edged sword would have been considered for the Omani long hilt dance sword as these backsword blades are notably rigid for thrusting, as were many British and European cavalry swords for dragoons of 17th and 18th centuries. While for a time at the end of the 19th century there were attempts to align the schiavona and the Highland broadsword, it was quickly proven that the two swords, though both basket hilts were in no way connected.

It remains unclear whether the German blades in Omani swords would have been sufficiently flexible for the war dance events, but the suggestion remains that the action of vibrating them did take place before combat use.
It also remains suggested that the swords for the pageantry dancing did not use these import blades, and were likely locally made. The conundrum is of course whether battle swords were separate entities from the dance swords, or whether the two were one in the same.

The old battle sayf, in its distinct hilt which appears to be a traditionally held form that is likely from considerable antiquity also remains elusive in establishing its verifiable presence in place from the 8th century, but the history of these regions offers compelling potential of that being the case.
As we have noted, it does seem these did acquire import blades in some degree, but it is unclear whether these hilts were on the swords described in the forementioned narratives.

All the best,
Jim

[Iain]

There are two points I have mentioned before but I think need to be mentioned again.

1. Blade markings - there is no reason for fake running wolves and other European marks to show up on native made Omani saif blades unless European blades were already in circulation in Oman and widely regarded as a benchmark for quality.

2. A shift in blade profile to something remarkably similar to the European trade blades of the era, the sudden use of fullering where previously there was none and patterns such as the triple fullered blades which closely resemble European imports into the Red Sea region, even though most of the blades on Omani saifs are native made.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

There are two points I have mentioned before but I think need to be mentioned again.

1. Blade markings - there is no reason for fake running wolves and other European marks to show up on native made Omani saif blades unless European blades were already in circulation in Oman and widely regarded as a benchmark for quality.

2. A shift in blade profile to something remarkably similar to the European trade blades of the era, the sudden use of fullering where previously there was none and patterns such as the triple fullered blades which closely resemble European imports into the Red Sea region, even though most of the blades on Omani saifs are native made.


Salaams ~ I have no idea who placed or why the running wolf appears on some blades and not on others. The majority dont have it. Many other blades coming down the red sea have it... and on arrival they have been cross hilted matched onto Omani long hilts. There is the example of the tripple fuller at 228 but as you know this blade isnt Omani..I will try to find out who put the fake stamp on that one...if it was done in Muttrah or it arrived like that.
The fullering is a question. It was done to dancing swords thats for sure. In addition late Sayf Yamaani were fullered though early examples not it seems... I cannot draw a link to European blades as yet... neither to the old or new swords (of the type Sayf Yamaani and sayf dancing sword). Research continues.

Salaams,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent points Iain! and I need to use these concise methods of asserting key points that you guys have well established as effective in moving forward with this complex discussion. However, old dog...'new', or better , different, tricks :) Its the writer in me :)

I would like to note first of all that this discussion is an absolute gift, as even in the 90s, the subject of Omani swords was a complete mystery, and these were anomalies among ethnographic weapons. Even Elgood in writing his book on Arabian weapons (1994) noted that the history and origins of these swords were unclear, and even asking Omani personages about them when he was in Arabia researching gave no clear answers. I recall that even when one of these cylindrical hilt swords turned up (including one I obtained) it was a major event among collectors, and these were considered 'rare'. In recent reading on Arabian history, Oman is scarcely mentioned as far as I could find in the references I used. It is mentioned how difficult it was for anyone to get in there, and these were prominant figures in the academic world.

What I do know is that the Omani swords I saw around those times, including the one I had, seemed invariably to have Solingen 'type' blades. I also had a pata which had a blade of 'Solingen' type ,again, with the three central fullers and the often seen cosmological array in motif with sun, moon and stars. This seemed to of course suggest that the blades entering the Red Sea trade were indeed filtering into North Africa for kaskaras and takoubas as well as into Ethiopia, Arabia and to trade moving toward India and the western trade centers there.

Concerning the use of the familiar markings, in this case particularly the 'Passau wolf'. As has long been well established, these highly stylized zoomorphic marks, usually chiselled free form, when entering other cultures departed thier original intent as quality oriented guild marks. They assimilated quite understandably into the native parlance common to the spectrum of beliefs or perceptions held in those contexts. Typically these were magical or talismanic beliefs believed to represent power transmitted to the blade and the user. We have seen many examples of these kinds of interpretations with the various markings found on kaskara and takouba blades which commonly are described in native context, and are often native applied renderings of the long established repertoire of makings seen on European blades generations before. It is also is known that in many cases, certain makers would adopt certain markings, it was not necessarily a universal or random circumstance. Some makers actually had stamps used rather than the freestyle renderings, especially in the case of the 'dukari' or half moons which were indeed practically universal, however thier exact meanings could have wide interpretation.

In the case of the Omani sayfs, I personally believe that there was at some time in earlier years at least some presence of European blades, and while they of course would have been present on combat oriented swords, even if the pageantry profiled weapons were indeed a separate type weapon, at least some makers may have added them. If presuming that the war dance was performed by veteran warriors, it would stand to reason that these kinds of markings would be considered symbolic in terms of valorious service, and not necessarily in the same parlance as perceived on the combat blades.

With the recent changes in opening the long restricted boundaries in Oman, and the clearly described advent of burgeoning commercial trade with particular respect to weapons, it seems that the traditional aspects of these weapons have been dramatically clouded by those activities. I would presume that there would be wide variation in choice of blade types as well as adoption of select markings of as many interpretations as would be found in any modern commercial setting. There are of course going to be the usual ranges of skill, knowledge and resources of makers producing the products as well. It seems clear, as Iain has noted, that modern examples of these blades which have probably as Ibrahiim has asserted been produced locally for decades, if not even the last hundred years, were probably made for pageantry as the use of firearms had placed the sword in secondary status as a weapon in combat.
It seems with that respect, much as in North Africa, certain makers whose families had long standing following of traditions in producing blades might use these venerable markings while others with less distinct ties might not include them. It is the same with fullering, blade forms etc. these characteristics would follow practices of the maker maintaining his own traditions.

There you have it, concisely itemized :) oh well.

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This continues to be a fascinating discussion, and Ibrahiim thank you for the information on the 'halab' blade designation.

I wanted to note with regard to the narrative quotes I included in my earlier posts from contact with Omani forces by Mr. Fraser. While his visit may have been brief, it would seem that details such as the mention of Solingen marks and the Andrea Ferara would not have been included if not actually seen. In a cursory observation, as far as I have seen, such specific details would not have been noted as the comparison to Highland broadswords alone would have sufficed. As I mentioned, I would suspect Mr. Fraser had first hand knowledge of these swords, and while clearly a presumption, it is worthy of note that his name is from a prominent Scottish clan.

I am curious on the most commonly seen cross section on the old battle sayf yemani described as wing shape, would this mean lenticular? and presumably with fuller (s).

I have been doing some research on the flexibility of the German blades and in "Reports on the Paris Universal Exhibition" (1867) Vol.4, pp.179-80 the 'Report on Portable Arms' by Capt. V.D.Majendie, R.A. notes:
"...as however the flexibility of a blade depends after its quality, upon its transverse section and as Solingen exhibits swords which will bend almost around a mans body, it would seem as though all the flexibility that could possibly be desired can be obtained without any admixture of iron".

It would seem that these Solingen blades, many of which were destined to many markets throughout Europe, reflect the flexible nature of the Solingen blades apparantly present at this time, probably before and later as well.
Egerton (1885) describes an Arab sword from Sudan, presumably actually a kaskara, with 3 foot long blade of flexible steel believed European and probably from Solingen. It is known that in the 1780s in England during the so called 'sword scandals' with English blades vs. German imports, much of the testing on the blades was on the flexibility.

The questions remain... were the blades seen in these early reports on Omani broadswords German imports; were they combat reliable; and equally were they able to produce the vibrations and sound desired for the 'war dance'? While thus far we have said that German import blades were too stiff for dance swords, however it seems accounts of the German blades indicate good flexibility.

It is thought than one of the primary entrepots for these German import blades was Egypt, as it had been from earlier times, in the period of these narrarives as well. There are accounts of German blades being sold at the Shendy center in northern Sudan in 1814, suggesting these blades coming into these regions from Red Sea trade. These trade networks also sent blades into Arabia usually via Yemen, with caravans eastward.

I am somewhat doubtful of the potential for schiavona blades, though it is tempting to consider some of the early blades might have entered North Africa. What is important to note here however is that these 'schiavona' were primarily backswords, that is single edged. I do not believe a single edged sword would have been considered for the Omani long hilt dance sword as these backsword blades are notably rigid for thrusting, as were many British and European cavalry swords for dragoons of 17th and 18th centuries. While for a time at the end of the 19th century there were attempts to align the schiavona and the Highland broadsword, it was quickly proven that the two swords, though both basket hilts were in no way connected.

It remains unclear whether the German blades in Omani swords would have been sufficiently flexible for the war dance events, but the suggestion remains that the action of vibrating them did take place before combat use.
It also remains suggested that the swords for the pageantry dancing did not use these import blades, and were likely locally made. The conundrum is of course whether battle swords were separate entities from the dance swords, or whether the two were one in the same.

The old battle sayf, in its distinct hilt which appears to be a traditionally held form that is likely from considerable antiquity also remains elusive in establishing its verifiable presence in place from the 8th century, but the history of these regions offers compelling potential of that being the case.
As we have noted, it does seem these did acquire import blades in some degree, but it is unclear whether these hilts were on the swords described in the forementioned narratives.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim~ I regret I am a little delayed and behind by a post or two as I am in and out of Buraimi… When first I saw the name Frazer I had to look it up and immediately saw the significance in his name as Clan linked and thought that he must have known the significance of the Claymore as you say. He seems to be the only anecdotal link of substance though I am amazed that in one visit he apparently got down to blade inspections which has a peculiar ring to me and may be over icing on the cake, perhaps, done later? Artistic licence? I have to say that the dancing sword does look warlike (but it is not a weapon) and it could be this that he saw. On the other hand it may have been the Sayf Yamaani. I would say it was certainly one of the two or both. The anecdote is, however, placed well for future reference..

Omani Battle Sword blade. "Sayf Yamaani". Bearing in mind that it is described as designed/introduced in 751 ad and frozen till relatively very recently and even today being Iconized, therefore, many different variations must exist on the blade down the ages... Therefor it is accepted that many blades must have been repaired and replaced at various times and possibly by various makers. The early style had no fullers as technology may not have been there at such an early date... I have swords with no fullers. Some I have seen with fullers which are obviously later models. The Mark 1 style(so to speak) has apparently none. Even in the case of the fullered weapon it is non flexible and would snap after about 25 degrees of bend I suspect. The wing shape across the blade is critical since the middle of the blade is quite thick giving it the ability to chop and slash whilst the point capable of thrust and stab.

The German blade flexibility is interesting and I recall the story about the Shotley Bridge master at a sword expo where he had concealed a blade in his top hat such was its flexibility. .. and astounded clients and onlookers when he revealed it. However the Omani dancing blade is not a weapon and I have not yet seen a German blade that I can identify on any I have handled so far. Why would they want to weaponize a pageantry sword?

Any sword stamps that I have seen on flexible Omani Dancing Swords have been done locally. I have only seen German stamps on blades that have been brought in and put onto Omani hilts for the tourist market. I have not yet seen a flexible German blade matched to an Omani long hilt and used by Omanis for dancing and have that down to one simple reasoning~ The German sword was a fighting sword, a weapon of war…(if it exists) whilst the Omani dancing sword is a pageantry sword only.

I continue to look out for possible German blade replacements for the Old Omani Battle Sword without success… and fear that it could be only a rumour or that it simply was not a successful concept and died out … and vanished ~ Sunk without trace perhaps.. Though I have a hypothesis for the phenomena below.

Schiavona ~ I agree on your point about single edges and was about give up, however, on the final picture at my reference on Forum previously posted I also looked at Schiavona Sword Variations #1 on the European ; I noted a double edge Schiavonas which could be a style that has entered the equation… Rather a note on passing than a fixed idea..perhaps worthy of a look.

Upon the trade routes I have no questions and accept they were many and varied… What is apparently absolute is that whatever came down the trade route in the shape of a sword the Omanis would be certain to reject a blade not able to buzz in the pageant. I cannot see how these blades if they exist were perhaps then fitted to Sayf Yamaani as an alternative. I can see how they could have been bottled up in some warehouse store in Yemen or Saudia until much later..for rehilting and tourism.

I don’t believe the qualities are there inherent in dancing blades to even class them as fighting weapons. Being razor sharp is a red herring. Thin, bendy, not particularly well made and the only specific test being its flexibility ( and round tip) on long hilts.."for dancing and pageants only".

Hypothesis.
1. I would be blind however not to notice the plethora of blades with stiffer blades and points emerging on the market. Perhaps these Red Sea Cousins as I call them were intended for the Omani market in say the 19th C and having arrived in Red Sea environs were found to be unsuitable for Omani dancing swords and discarded in a warehouse until some entrepreneurial souk shop owner saw a potential market in foreign tourists?

2.Could it also be possible that these blades were fitted to Omani hilts in the 19th C and plied on the peripheral market around the Red Sea and Zanzibar Hub? Perhaps this would explain the conundrum though I have to say I have absolutely no proof. Slavery was still running at full tilt (and supported by the French) until late in the 19th C so perhaps this was a weapon carried by slaving crews …. What is for certain is that blades are and have been re-hilted in Muttrah Souk Muscat since 1970 (and or other centres) of this nature though I haven’t seen their original condition and what hilts they had if any.

Where I consider that confusion has reigned is, in part, because of the terminology since there are of course curved European Blades on Omani and Zanzibari hilts in Shashqa and Nimcha and Karabela forms coined "Kattara" by Omanis. ( naturally the other curved swords of Persian and Hyderabadi and also occasional Damascqi style were also named "Kattara")

Notwithstanding this hypothesis; My suspicion remains strongly that these are Red Sea variants; Yemeni or Saudia blades or a mixture of all the possibilities including German being hoisted onto the tourist market as fakes since 1970.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Excellent points Iain! and I need to use these concise methods of asserting key points that you guys have well established as effective in moving forward with this complex discussion. However, old dog...'new', or better , different, tricks :) Its the writer in me :)

I would like to note first of all that this discussion is an absolute gift, as even in the 90s, the subject of Omani swords was a complete mystery, and these were anomalies among ethnographic weapons. Even Elgood in writing his book on Arabian weapons (1994) noted that the history and origins of these swords were unclear, and even asking Omani personages about them when he was in Arabia researching gave no clear answers. I recall that even when one of these cylindrical hilt swords turned up (including one I obtained) it was a major event among collectors, and these were considered 'rare'. In recent reading on Arabian history, Oman is scarcely mentioned as far as I could find in the references I used. It is mentioned how difficult it was for anyone to get in there, and these were prominant figures in the academic world.

What I do know is that the Omani swords I saw around those times, including the one I had, seemed invariably to have Solingen 'type' blades. I also had a pata which had a blade of 'Solingen' type ,again, with the three central fullers and the often seen cosmological array in motif with sun, moon and stars. This seemed to of course suggest that the blades entering the Red Sea trade were indeed filtering into North Africa for kaskaras and takoubas as well as into Ethiopia, Arabia and to trade moving toward India and the western trade centers there.

Concerning the use of the familiar markings, in this case particularly the 'Passau wolf'. As has long been well established, these highly stylized zoomorphic marks, usually chiselled free form, when entering other cultures departed thier original intent as quality oriented guild marks. They assimilated quite understandably into the native parlance common to the spectrum of beliefs or perceptions held in those contexts. Typically these were magical or talismanic beliefs believed to represent power transmitted to the blade and the user. We have seen many examples of these kinds of interpretations with the various markings found on kaskara and takouba blades which commonly are described in native context, and are often native applied renderings of the long established repertoire of makings seen on European blades generations before. It is also is known that in many cases, certain makers would adopt certain markings, it was not necessarily a universal or random circumstance. Some makers actually had stamps used rather than the freestyle renderings, especially in the case of the 'dukari' or half moons which were indeed practically universal, however thier exact meanings could have wide interpretation.

In the case of the Omani sayfs, I personally believe that there was at some time in earlier years at least some presence of European blades, and while they of course would have been present on combat oriented swords, even if the pageantry profiled weapons were indeed a separate type weapon, at least some makers may have added them. If presuming that the war dance was performed by veteran warriors, it would stand to reason that these kinds of markings would be considered symbolic in terms of valorious service, and not necessarily in the same parlance as perceived on the combat blades.

With the recent changes in opening the long restricted boundaries in Oman, and the clearly described advent of burgeoning commercial trade with particular respect to weapons, it seems that the traditional aspects of these weapons have been dramatically clouded by those activities. I would presume that there would be wide variation in choice of blade types as well as adoption of select markings of as many interpretations as would be found in any modern commercial setting. There are of course going to be the usual ranges of skill, knowledge and resources of makers producing the products as well. It seems clear, as Iain has noted, that modern examples of these blades which have probably as Ibrahiim has asserted been produced locally for decades, if not even the last hundred years, were probably made for pageantry as the use of firearms had placed the sword in secondary status as a weapon in combat.
It seems with that respect, much as in North Africa, certain makers whose families had long standing following of traditions in producing blades might use these venerable markings while others with less distinct ties might not include them. It is the same with fullering, blade forms etc. these characteristics would follow practices of the maker maintaining his own traditions.

There you have it, concisely itemized :) oh well.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ Your post is key to the understanding of Oman as a virtually closed country until about 1970.

A point that I should clear up is on the wolf view by Omanis who routinely used wolf skin on the abu futtila butt next to the cheek as opposed to their reaction to wolf attacks on their livestock (especially the Bedu) where the wolf would be ruthlessly hunted and once caught its head would be stuck on a pole to ward off other "evil influences"...In the case of inclusion on weapons and the "Passau Woolf" it seems clear that it is a talisman.

The Omani people will have had a lot of contact through meeting a lot of English (and French and other nationalities) with swords no doubt some of which had Passau Woolf marks and whereas they would not neccessarily have adopted the weapons they could easily have copied the mark.. They did the same with Raj Crown marks..It is pertinent to point out that the most efficient tried and tested weapons on the doorstep that they must have seen almost daily were the Indian Hindu dynasty weapons stretching back far into history... and how many of those extremely varied weapons were copied into the Omani armoury... None! bar the Hyderabadi shamshir and only because of the vast and growing importance of the Khojas in Muscat and that was essentially a court sword. The only thing they ever copied off an Indain sword was the Raj Crown... and they still do in Ras Al Khaimah.

The problem inherrent with asking Omani people anything is the syndrome of them agreeing to anything you want to tell them or ask them about ~which is only their polite way of dealing with something they dont know the answer to... Sometimes the answer to a how old is this ? sort of querry is limited to their own experience or that of their father or grandfathers time scale... How old is this Old Omani Battle Sword... 150 years, 80 years depending on who they think owned it...This is particularly when dealing with older people, who after all, had zero education and most stuff they know arrived in their knowledge base by myth legend or tradition... passed down through the ages embroidered and changed to suit the wind direction.. :)

Your well placed note on stamps and passau wolf comments reminds me how turbulent this subject can get as I have never seen a European stamp on a flexible dancing sword except in the case of one dodgey blade with european numbers on it.. all the other stamps are Arabian. Naturally I have to sideline swords that I know have been Omani hilted such as the Solingen combo sword earlier # 229; top picture.

As we cruise toward 10,000 hits on this thread I still see some interesting areas which need probing as to date; no one has pin pointed the production centre of the old or new Sayfs and work needs polishing on the weird blades at my earlier hypothesis and if there are any Schiavonas in the mixture... etc

I need to get into a couple of Museums and also examine data at the Funoon centre to see if clarity on dates can be obtained.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Ibrahiim, excellent points and I think that the positions and observations are presenting great material to be considered as we move forward. We are still far from conclusions but the progress is great.

On the schiavona, there were of course variants, and while most I have seen were backswords, but some were broadswords. It is worthy of note that the schiavona itself was around before the hilt became fully developed, and again this is a term which became associated primarily with the baskethilt form. We know that anumber of blades were coming in from Italy into the Red Sea trade, but I think that these were powerfully usurped by the German blades in the 19th century.

I have been looking into Yucel in trying to understand more on the Abbasid swords which are believed to be the ancestor of the old Omani sayf, and found that the earliest surviving example of these is one attributed to Caliph Mu'awiya ibn Abi Sufyan, the first Umayyad caliph (reigned 41-60 hijral, 661-680 AD). This blade is shown in plate 24, described p.56, but the illustrations are not very good.

On p.54, it is noted that virtually nothing is known about the nature of Abbasid and Umayyad hilts, quillon blocks and scabbards, but of course the blades are represented among the swords in Istanbul. The blades were without fullers, and thicken at the center, which would I believe approximate the 'wing shape' you describe, and I think may be described as lenticular.

I am curious about the Omani old sayf, and whether there are examples of these hilts which are being suggested to have remained in situ since the 751AD date and if possibly somewhere in Oman. I cannot remember in earlier discussion whether we had determined if an Abbasid hilt had been located which conforms to the old Omani sayf hilt, naturally subsequent to Yucels's outstanding work in 2001. He unfortunately passed away that same year.

As always, adding material to be considered in the course of our discussions here.

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank you very much Ibrahiim, excellent points and I think that the positions and observations are presenting great material to be considered as we move forward. We are still far from conclusions but the progress is great.

On the schiavona, there were of course variants, and while most I have seen were backswords, but some were broadswords. It is worthy of note that the schiavona itself was around before the hilt became fully developed, and again this is a term which became associated primarily with the baskethilt form. We know that anumber of blades were coming in from Italy into the Red Sea trade, but I think that these were powerfully usurped by the German blades in the 19th century.

I have been looking into Yucel in trying to understand more on the Abbasid swords which are believed to be the ancestor of the old Omani sayf, and found that the earliest surviving example of these is one attributed to Caliph Mu'awiya ibn Abi Sufyan, the first Umayyad caliph (reigned 41-60 hijral, 661-680 AD). This blade is shown in plate 24, described p.56, but the illustrations are not very good.

On p.54, it is noted that virtually nothing is known about the nature of Abbasid and Umayyad hilts, quillon blocks and scabbards, but of course the blades are represented among the swords in Istanbul. The blades were without fullers, and thicken at the center, which would I believe approximate the 'wing shape' you describe, and I think may be described as lenticular.

I am curious about the Omani old sayf, and whether there are examples of these hilts which are being suggested to have remained in situ since the 751AD date and if possibly somewhere in Oman. I cannot remember in earlier discussion whether we had determined if an Abbasid hilt had been located which conforms to the old Omani sayf hilt, naturally subsequent to Yucels's outstanding work in 2001. He unfortunately passed away that same year.

As always, adding material to be considered in the course of our discussions here.

All the best,
Jim


Salaams Jim ~ You may recall the #5 post on this thread where a Topkapi sword (which may on reflection be either in the Topkapi or the Istanbul military museaum or both and being Abbasid was compared favourably with the Old Omani Battlesword in 11 categories including similarities in hilt construction but certainly not with the Islamic Arched Pommel.. nor the turned down quillons but almost everything else including blade profile.
It is key to the early Ibn Julanda theory backed by the Funoon combined with the in situ frozen in time in Oman concept that the entire weapon emerges. In fact I chose the 751 date as an honorary point since it is likely that the weapon emerged sometime before and copied largely from the Abassiid and the earlier date of 620 has been considered with the first Islamic movement however as Ibn Julanda was the first Ibathi Immam 751 has been selected bearing in mind the likelihood of the hilt being virtuslly or potentially heraldic in nature which in itself would rock the foundations of heraldic symbols which insist rather on shields as being the objects of transmition. Not only is the Pommel the shape of the Abbasiid Islamic Arch..(not to be confused by later arches nor later (Islamic)battle helmets which didn't exist in the mid 8th C) but the Minarette form is also reflected in the hilt on earlier examples. I have placed several of these in private collections with the dots on the blades ... both in the blade tip and at the throat in single dots and others with a tripple dot at the riccaso.

The Umayyis swords and hilts are indeed difficult to trace as none exist.. as far as I know.

Work is ongoing with the term Sayf Yamaani though I get blank looks when I speak about the place near Iski, Nizwa and being the ancient old quarter called "Yemen" and likely to have been populated in about the 1st to 3rdC ad from the broken dam in The Yemen called Mehrib Dam and its corresponding exodus of many tribes to Oman (for Nizwa in particular).

We also know that the entire area of Yemen southern Oman and parts of Africa at the horn were called an as one throw away term The Yemen and the African Coast at the horn is often called the Yemen on old maps..

Nizwa region fits the bill because of its prowess in Copper and Iron smelting and because of the early bellows technique employed there. Of course that is not proven and other places may be responsible like Hadramaut or even Sri Lanka with advanced blown air furnaces in use early.

The very nature of an isolated religious grouping like Ibathism underscores the peculiar syndrome of this weapons isolation. Except for a small outpost of the same sect in North Africa the country was quite its own citadel and standing alone. After all; the point of the Abbasiid garrisons sent from Iraq was to primarily suppress the Omanis in that regard and the later raids by the Wahhabis was similarly inspired ( in 1865 they sacked Sur) though eventually that subsided though not without a fight. Coincidentally the seat of the Ibathi sects power remained at Nizwa down the ages.. making the conclusion perhaps easy to draw on the Sayf Yamaanis birthplace.. However, that is, as yet not proven.

One area neglected so far is the huge influence exerted by merchants from the largest influential group... India. In the Indian ocean they were called Banyans and if trade were to be conducted it was the Banyans doing it, often without the see saw politics and nonsense between Oman, France and Britain which at the best of times was farcical. :shrug:


I have just read an extraordinary article on www.jrpeterson.net which has some very interesting background on outsider groups integrating eventually into Oman and snippets on Zuttoot, Khojas, Baluchi and other important fringe set ups with mention of sword manufacturing in one anecdote..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Reference note for Forum library.
From www.thenational.ae/news/.../weapons-do-thriving-trade-in-rak
Anecdotal Evidence; The Omani Sayf; Dancing Swords Only.

Quote "RAS AL KHAIMAH // In the markets of the old town, swords are easily available and readily sold to mountain tribesmen.

"All Shehhi [tribesmen] should have swords," said Azziz al Shehhi, 22. "It's nice for dancing, not for fighting. These are for gifts, for celebrations."
Mr al Shehhi owns four swords, four traditional knives and two rifles that belonged to his father. But the party favourite was always the sword, an essential for any mountain celebration, he said.

Strong swordsmanship is the mark of a good wedding for mountain tribes like the Shehhu and Habus. Swords are not raised in combat, but thrown metres in the air and then caught.

The swords are forged in the workshops of the old RAK market, many of which have operated for more than three decades.
Shopkeepers must be licensed to sell swords, but are not required to keep records of how many they sell or to whom.
They make them according to demand. Some months they may sell only one or two, and other months they will sell dozens, especially in the summer wedding season.

Swords can be bought in glass cases as gifts and are a traditional reward at sporting events such as camel races. More often they are sold as an accessory for weddings, along with the canes and the yerz, a tribal axe.
Swords are sold blunt so men can catch them while dancing, but can be easily sharpened. Honing usually comes at the behest of elders, who want swords sharpened to a fine edge to honour their forefathers.
Zahee Ahmed, 28, of Pakistan, sells to tribesmen, sheikhs and tourists, as well as to shops in Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Sharjah. He said he had yet to hear of any case of swords being used as a weapon. "It's not dangerous," said Mr Ahmed. "We make them for celebration, not for killing. This is not for fighting, it is only for culture. The man is crazy if he will fight."
There is no age requirement on who can buy a sword, but some stores will only sell to Emiratis.

For many years, bargain hunters would often skip the markets of old RAK and buy from the family of Charchambi Daad Mohammed, a Baluchi axe and sword maker who crafted the weapons in his house.
Until last year, he roamed the streets of the Nakheel market with a bundle of swords and axes under his arm to be sold to whoever had the cash.
The swords business got a boost last December after Fujairah's first annual Al Saif Traditional Sword Competition, in which TV viewers and audience members voted by SMS for their favourite sword dancer.
RAK swordsmiths reported a sharp rise in demand for a month afterwards". Unquote. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all,

Detail you cannot see at #25 on this thread is the style of hilt on the Sultan Bargash Old Omani Sayf however~ heres one~ From the Book by Richardson and Dorr; "The Craft Heritage of Oman" ~ Forum please note the identical style on the Royal Khanjar at the thread "The Omani Khanjar"#1 by Ibrahiim al Balooshi:shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Salaams All ~ Note to Library; "The Al Bu Saidi Dynasty" start date of circa 1744 was previously considered as a possible start date on the sa'idiyyah hilt; royal khanjar and royal old omani battle sword iconic hilt. This is wide of the actual mark since it seems that the likely designer was the wife of the ruler who was in power from 1806 (though there were 2 shared years previous) to 1856. ~ Sultan Said's second wife Binti Irich Mirza who was Persian and also called "Sheherazade" and it appears she designed the hilt. That puts the design date at no earlier than the marriage in about 1850.
Thus the dates of both hilts are revised to Circa 1850.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams All ~ Note to Library; "The Al Bu Saidi Dynasty" start date of circa 1744 was previously considered as a possible start date on the sa'idiyyah hilt; royal khanjar and royal old omani battle sword iconic hilt. This is wide of the actual mark since it seems that the likely designer was the wife of the ruler who was in power from 1806 (though there were 2 shared years previous) to 1856. ~ Sultan Said's second wife Binti Irich Mirza who was Persian and also called "Sheherazade" and it appears she designed the hilt. That puts the design date at no earlier than the marriage in about 1850.
Thus the dates of both hilts are revised to Circa 1850.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Interesting, can I ask why it is assumed the designer was the wife?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Iain ~This is almost impossible to prove beyond doubt therefor I begin by saying that ~"It is said that"~ It seems she(Sheherazad) was bored with the usual khanjar form and using her Persian design ideas created what I can only describe as an Indo Persian hilt. Detail is scant since this lady seems to have run off with her lover back to Persia(aprox 1832) and when she was married only seemed interested in gallavanting about like a wild thing horseriding and so forth.(seems reasonable to me!) The Sultan(Bin Sayf) meanwhile went on to sire something like 36 children with other wives (none with her) though it looks like nearer 50 or 60, however, 36 survived his death in 1856 :shrug:

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note~ (Sayyid) Said bin Sultan Al-Said (Arabic: سعيد بن سلطان‎, Sa‘id bin Sulṭān) (June 5, 1797 - October 19, 1856) was Sultan of Muscat and Oman from November 20, 1804 to June 4, 1856. He became joint ruler of the country along with his brother Salim on the death of their father, Sultan bin Ahmad, in 1804. Said deprived his brother of joint rule on September 14, 1806.

In 1837, he conquered the town of Mombasa, Kenya. In 1840, Said bin Sultan moved his capital from Muscat, Oman, to Stone Town, Zanzibar. In 1840, he sent a ship to the United States in an attempt to establish a trading relationship.

Upon Said's death in 1856, his realm was divided: his third son, Thuwaini bin Said, became the Sultan of Muscat and Oman; and his sixth son, Sayyid Majid bin Said, became the Sultan of Zanzibar.

The National Museum of Oman in Muscat still houses numerous items of silverware and other possessions that belonged to Said.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain ~This is almost impossible to prove beyond doubt therefor I begin by saying that ~"It is said that"~ It seems she(Sheherazad) was bored with the usual khanjar form and using her Persian design ideas created what I can only describe as an Indo Persian hilt. Detail is scant since this lady seems to have run off with her lover back to Persia(aprox 1832) and when she was married only seemed interested in gallavanting about like a wild thing horseriding and so forth.(seems reasonable to me!) The Sultan(Bin Sayf) meanwhile went on to sire something like 36 children with other wives (none with her) though it looks like nearer 50 or 60, however, 36 survived his death in 1856 :shrug:

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Thanks for the clarification Ibrahiim. :) So this is basically one of those "legend has it" type of things?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thanks for the clarification Ibrahiim. :) So this is basically one of those "legend has it" type of things?

Salaams Iain, It is rather odd. I knew about the story more than 25 years ago when I first really got interested in Khanjars and it seemed fairly common knowledge then... however people have short memories and I cannot find a reference to back it up except that on this forum there is an old reference citing the origin to the period of ruler at the time said bin sultan between 1806 and 1856. Certainly no pictures paintings or graphics of previous sultans have the royal hilt form but after that they do... and there are some graphics with that sultan in the royal hilt. The rumour was that a beautiful princess had designed the hilt and that she was Persian. What the rumour(if that is what it is) did not specify was that she had beeen divorced essentially for adultery and had gone back to Persia etc etc. in the date range outlined by me... I have raided almost every resource on the web to not much avail and will check it out fully on a future museum visit.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; Larry in 2005 on the "Khanjar Identification" thread #3 noted in very much the terms as I have ... quote "The story goes that the Persian queen of Oman, the loyal loving Persian wife of Al Bu Said Sayydi Ibn Sultan who reigned Oman in 1806-1856, thought that the classical Omani Khanjar, with the rather simple I shaped handles was boring, and designed a new and more flashy khanjar dagger for her husband birthday. The new style rapidly become very popular and its used was spread all over the Arabian peninsula." Unquote.

[Jim McDougall]

Intriguing tale, and as with most lore which has become entwined within the perameters of the popular culture of arms collecting and literature, there are always elements of fact embellished in degree. These things are often the bane of weapons scholars as many of these things were absorbed by early arms writers and adventurers in thier narratives, and became almost venerable cliche's which perpetuated with the growing interest in old arms.

Actually the first time I ever heard mention or use of the name Scheherazade was colloquially as an expression, and seems linked to the popular culture images from literature and I believe even theatricals much akin to the "Arabian Nights". If not mistaken, in this sense the name was emblazoned on at least one American bomber in WWII, and perhaps others, reflecting the well known presence of the famed name in those parlances.

This by no means intends to diminish the fascinating tales linked to these weapons, particularly the rich history of the khanjhar, however it is important to remember this perspective in further research as far as reconfirming elements and facts.

As always, magnificent insight into this amazing culture Ibrahiim, and excellent discourse along with great observations made by Iain. This truly is a most educating thread which I hope continues long, as it is an adventure in itself learning about this, until recently, relatively remote culture through these intriguing weapons and thier history.

All the very best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Intriguing tale, and as with most lore which has become entwined within the perameters of the popular culture of arms collecting and literature, there are always elements of fact embellished in degree. These things are often the bane of weapons scholars as many of these things were absorbed by early arms writers and adventurers in thier narratives, and became almost venerable cliche's which perpetuated with the growing interest in old arms.

Actually the first time I ever heard mention or use of the name Scheherazade was colloquially as an expression, and seems linked to the popular culture images from literature and I believe even theatricals much akin to the "Arabian Nights". If not mistaken, in this sense the name was emblazoned on at least one American bomber in WWII, and perhaps others, reflecting the well known presence of the famed name in those parlances.

This by no means intends to diminish the fascinating tales linked to these weapons, particularly the rich history of the khanjhar, however it is important to remember this perspective in further research as far as reconfirming elements and facts.

As always, magnificent insight into this amazing culture Ibrahiim, and excellent discourse along with great observations made by Iain. This truly is a most educating thread which I hope continues long, as it is an adventure in itself learning about this, until recently, relatively remote culture through these intriguing weapons and thier history.

All the very best,
Jim
Salaams Jim ~ Yes "elf layla wa layla" "The thousand and one nights" tales Scheherazade (Persian: شهرزاد‎ Šahrzād also called Shahrazad) is the legendary Persian queen and the storyteller and narrator of The Nights. She is the daughter of the kingdom's vizier and sister of Dunyazad(Persian: دنیازاد‎).She marries King Shahryar, who has vowed that he will execute a new bride everyday. For 1001 nights, Scheherazade tells her husband a story every night, stopping at dawn with a cliffhanger, forcing the King to keep her alive for another day.

It is quite odd since the Sultan apparently built baths for Sheherazade in 1850 at Zanzibar but the chronicles have her running off to Persia earlier than that... As a precaution and until I can unravel that error I have estimated 1850 as the rough date for the Royal hilt ~ I also find it strange that a Dynastic Hilt was designed by a wife of an important Sultan .. when she ran away with another man ! More work needed on this story! At least I have some roughly accurate names and dates to play with.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

In looking further into the 'Sheherazade' part of this story, this seems probably a bit of a red herring as the question is really whether the wife of Al Bu Sa'idi was actually the designer of what appears to be a variation on the hilt design. The mention of her being called 'Sheherazade' is not included in the mention in Larry's 2005 thread 'Khanjhar identification ', nor is the nearly verbatim paraphrasing by Oriental Arms in their description of this type taken from Elgood (p.83) who does not mention the sheherazade name either. Elgood cites his reference to the origins of this form and attributes to the Persian wife of the sultan (citing Ruth Hawley "Omani Silver" (Longman group, 1978). I do not have this reference so unsure what details of that reference are.
This tracing of references and sources is one of the best ways to check primary source comments which have often neen lifted and paraphrased to see what the original context was.

As the this Omani dynasty began in 1744, and it is claimed that the reigning sultan's wife, who was Persian 'designed' the hilt in the 1840s-50s? it does seem possible that the variation of the Royal Khanjhar as we are calling it came from that period. The reference to her being called 'Sheherazade' seems apocryphal and possibly a nickname from the Persian female character the 'Arabian Nights' tales.

Elgood (op.cit.p.83) describes the key features of the hilt on these Sa'idi khanjhars are the silver cones either side of the rounded horn pommel and the top crested with three silver balls, as well as filgree buttons on front.
He notes further that these are somewhat resembling the Mahri daggers of Al Mahra in Eastern Hadhramaut and Dhofar in Western Oman.
It is worthy of note that in addition to trade with India through Muscat, the Hadhramaut tribes, Yafa'i in particular, were long mercenaries to the Deccan in India. If one looks into the daggers of Deccani regions of the 16th century, the basic structure of the regular Omani khanjhar seems strikingly similar.

While the Sa'idi form of khanjhar (hilt) may have originated in the 19th century under the auspices of this ruler's reign, it seems doubtful that its design variation can be attributed to this or any particular person associated with Al Bu Sa'idi with any certainty. Also, it seems quite likely that the general hilt form of these khanjhars quite likely developed much earlier with the influence of the daggers of the Deccan known as 'chilanum' of centuries before. The decorative embellishments added later may have simply been to distinguish these important daggers to the standing rule of Al Bu Sa'idi, and which seems to have accomplished the perpetuation reflecting the style just as intended.


All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In looking further into the 'Sheherazade' part of this story, this seems probably a bit of a red herring as the question is really whether the wife of Al Bu Sa'idi was actually the designer of what appears to be a variation on the hilt design. The mention of her being called 'Sheherazade' is not included in the mention in Larry's 2005 thread 'Khanjhar identification ', nor is the nearly verbatim paraphrasing by Oriental Arms in their description of this type taken from Elgood (p.83) who does not mention the sheherazade name either. Elgood cites his reference to the origins of this form and attributes to the Persian wife of the sultan (citing Ruth Hawley "Omani Silver" (Longman group, 1978). I do not have this reference so unsure what details of that reference are.
This tracing of references and sources is one of the best ways to check primary source comments which have often neen lifted and paraphrased to see what the original context was.

As the this Omani dynasty began in 1744, and it is claimed that the reigning sultan's wife, who was Persian 'designed' the hilt in the 1840s-50s? it does seem possible that the variation of the Royal Khanjhar as we are calling it came from that period. The reference to her being called 'Sheherazade' seems apocryphal and possibly a nickname from the Persian female character the 'Arabian Nights' tales.

Elgood (op.cit.p.83) describes the key features of the hilt on these Sa'idi khanjhars are the silver cones either side of the rounded horn pommel and the top crested with three silver balls, as well as filgree buttons on front.
He notes further that these are somewhat resembling the Mahri daggers of Al Mahra in Eastern Hadhramaut and Dhofar in Western Oman.
It is worthy of note that in addition to trade with India through Muscat, the Hadhramaut tribes, Yafa'i in particular, were long mercenaries to the Deccan in India. If one looks into the daggers of Deccani regions of the 16th century, the basic structure of the regular Omani khanjhar seems strikingly similar.

While the Sa'idi form of khanjhar (hilt) may have originated in the 19th century under the auspices of this ruler's reign, it seems doubtful that its design variation can be attributed to this or any particular person associated with Al Bu Sa'idi with any certainty. Also, it seems quite likely that the general hilt form of these khanjhars quite likely developed much earlier with the influence of the daggers of the Deccan known as 'chilanum' of centuries before. The decorative embellishments added later may have simply been to distinguish these important daggers to the standing rule of Al Bu Sa'idi, and which seems to have accomplished the perpetuation reflecting the style just as intended.


All the best,
Jim



Salaams Jim ! Not that we are unfamiliar around here with the concept of red herrings ~ but ~ The second or third wife of the ruler of Oman at that time Sayyid Said bin Sultan (who ruled the al busaiyyidi dynasty 1806 to 1856 when he died on board ship near Zanzibar and succeeded by 36 children according to references) was the daughter of Persian Royalty and her name was Sheherazad.

"It is said" that the Persian princess was responsible for the new royal hilt design.... and though a specific reference is avoiding me at the moment I'm sure it will surface to that effect as we go forward. I take the 1850 mark as somewhere to park this for the time being until clarity prevails. Some slight readjustment looks likely in the date by a decade or so earlier however that will probably pan out later. For sure there are no signs of this hilt until the one seen worn by the ruler in a picture viewable at images of him on the web and by subsequent rulers and others thereafter.

The hilt does look similar to other variants like the adjoining Saudia region close to Oman ( Habbaabi style; not to be confused with Wahhaabi ) but is said to have been concocted around Indian or Indo Persian fashion by his Persain wife. (it can only have been Sheherazade)

The reference http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~royalty/states/islamic/persiaqajar.html indicates that she married Said Sultan in 1827 viz;

Shahzadi (name unknown), married in July 1827, Sayyid Said bin Sultan Al-Busaid, Sultan of Oman.

And that her father was viz;

HIM Shahanshah FATH ALI SHAH, 2nd Shahanshah of Persia 1797/1834, born 1771, married (amongst others) about 1797, Agaba Begum, daughter of Khan Ebrahim Khan, Khan of Qarabagh, married (b), Taj ud-Dawlah, married (c), Ziba Chehr Khanum, and had issue, 57 sons and 46 daughters. He died 23rd October 1834 in Isfahan and was buried at Qum.

Some time line confusion exists over when she left permanently and the web states in many references that the Persian baths in Kidichi, Zanzibar, were built for Sultan Said’s second wife Sheherazade, the daughter of a Persian Shah or Persia. This is claimed to be 1850 in a host of references apparently copied from the same source.

Thus the temporary allowance of 1850 attributed to the Royal Hilt appearance..which must be close.

An image appears with notes at http://safmuseum.gov.om/pop40.html on the provenance timewise but so far as I can see not absolute..on the Royal Hilt. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely outstanding and well presented research Ibrahiim!!!
It would seem that the 'red herring' would be from my own net :) and was by my presumption of the apparantly well established Persian name Sheherazade being fancifully woven into the stories on the origins of this distinct khanjhar hilt form. Obviously such a fabled name would be a select choice within regal families for a daughter, and such traditions run deeply.
My associations with the popular figure in literature and later even in theatricals and films then we can relegate to an interesting coincidence in name, not relevant to this research.

Returning to our case on this hilt form, it would seem that the terminus a quo for the introduction of these embellishments on the extant Omani khanjhar hilt form would correspond to the period of his marraige to this wife (1827-1836? depending on details of her departure with another suitor). There are no details of further specifics in Elgood, but I am wondering if the reference he often cites, "Tribes of Oman" (J.R.C.Carter, 1982) might have more. In any case, the 'design', which simply carries embellishments to the overall motif on the regular Omani khanjhar hilt, does seem to have attained great popularity and wide diffusion in its use.

Though this focus would seem to be outside the scope of this thread on kattara and the Omani old sayf, it is well placed in examining the context of events that may have bearing on the development of these swords as well.
It is great to have this kind of comprehensive dimension in discussions!

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Absolutely outstanding and well presented research Ibrahiim!!!
It would seem that the 'red herring' would be from my own net :) and was by my presumption of the apparantly well established Persian name Sheherazade being fancifully woven into the stories on the origins of this distinct khanjhar hilt form. Obviously such a fabled name would be a select choice within regal families for a daughter, and such traditions run deeply.
My associations with the popular figure in literature and later even in theatricals and films then we can relegate to an interesting coincidence in name, not relevant to this research.

Returning to our case on this hilt form, it would seem that the terminus a quo for the introduction of these embellishments on the extant Omani khanjhar hilt form would correspond to the period of his marraige to this wife (1827-1836? depending on details of her departure with another suitor). There are no details of further specifics in Elgood, but I am wondering if the reference he often cites, "Tribes of Oman" (J.R.C.Carter, 1982) might have more. In any case, the 'design', which simply carries embellishments to the overall motif on the regular Omani khanjhar hilt, does seem to have attained great popularity and wide diffusion in its use.

Though this focus would seem to be outside the scope of this thread on kattara and the Omani old sayf, it is well placed in examining the context of events that may have bearing on the development of these swords as well.
It is great to have this kind of comprehensive dimension in discussions!

All the best,
Jim


Salaams Jim,
Yes this is quite a diversion though as you point out it is also important (Oh I think we just crashed through the 10 thousand barrier ! :) ) My money is on the second wife not the third (therefor not Scheherezade the Persian lady whos real name was Binte Irich Mirza ) because the second wife was the woman behind the throne and looked after affairs of state. Even if the Persian wife had her hand on the design it would never have got accepted into the Royal Household without the say-so of the second wife "azze binte sayf bin ahmed". It looks like Sheherazade was in fact the grand daughter of the Persian Shah and she had a lover .. disappeared back to Persia, became divorced, and apparently joined the army to fight against the Omanis... This lady certainly had attitude !!

It looks like circa 1840 / 1850 as a probable date bracket for the Khanjar and "Sayf Yamaani" (The Old Omani Battle Sword) Royal Hilt Forms. It can be assumed, therefor, that the Sayf Yamaani became iconized in that date period. It may indicate the date in which it ceased to be the weapon used in the Funoon Pageants and was superceded around that time by the straight sayf; The Dancing Sword. If that is the case this could also be the lynchpin connector to the long hilt migrating from the dancing sword to the curved Kattara.... and Kattara iconization to boot. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Old Sayf photo ... arriving soon !

Salaams all; Just about to post... A new variant in dancing swords... The "Abu Falaj". (The one with the irrigation channels) In this case three fullers which would normally be termed "abu thalaatha musayil" ...

In the Abu Falaj however the fullers run almost all the way to the tip. This makes for an extra springy blade ideal for the pageants.... picture on way....maybe today.... :shrug:

This is an old sword late 19th C. (Circa 1880)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~ Here is a dilemma; The case for the Round Tip to Both Swords on;

1.The Old Omani Battle Sword; Sayf Yamaani. see photo below.
2.The Flexible Omani SAYF; The Dancing Sword. see photo below.

First I intend to show the similarity between the two swords above since the second superceded the first in the dance pageant(only) and it can be assumed that some similarities in design would be apparent.

Indeed both swords have 2 razor sharp edges and they both are called Sayf as the honorific flexible sword was given that in respect and honour of the users of the old weapon. ie the forefathers of the nation. Both use the famous Terrs shield and again in remembrance or the former system.

They both were the funun pageant weapons until one succeeded the other(circa 1840) and the only difference was that the old Sayf Yamaani at 1, was a Battle Sword...but is this the only similarity?

It can be argued that some parts of the hilt in the new sword are reminicent of the old... in the Islamic shape of part of the grip. It also could be said that the scabbards are identical in design except the new swords housing is simply longer; but is this all..?

What about the tip? We generally recognise the old sword as having a sharp tip... whilst the new sword tip is very round.

I will now make the case for a round tip on the old Omani Battle Sword and call into support 5 factors;

A. Fighting Style.
B. The Terrs Shield.
C. The Tip design on the New Sword.
D. Age, deterioration and wear.
E. The Funun Mimic Fight.

A.Fighting Style. I compare The Old Omani Battle Sword with the Roman Gladius which was essentially a spear pointed, short sword that had one "major strike"... The Thrust ..combined with the phalanx or defensive formation set behind a huge wall, line or block of defensive but manouverable "large shields".
This manouvre is not possible with tiny bucklers.( Terrs Shields see photo below) The major strike (The Thrust), therefor, is irrelevant in ancient Omani fighting style.

B.The Terrs Shield.The Old Omani Battle Sword used a small buckler shield(Terrs) and had no facility for phalanx protection thus it was used differently... mobile, fast moving swordsmen approaching an adversary rather like a boxer would today... darting in and out; slash and chop behind a fast worked buckler shield... no need for a sharp tip... Just slash and chop. No point in a point... so to speak !

C.The Tip design on the New Sword. I put it to Forum that the weapon had a round tip and many years later this was mirrored in the design of the new dancing pageant only sword. The fact that in the new sword design the dancing and mimic detail whereby the swordsmen can score a winning point by touching the opponents shield hand thumb is incidental and possibly invented after the fact but that the major element in the design is a direct and deliberate copy of the round tip.

D.Age, Deterioration and Wear. Old Battle Swords have some wear in the blades... noticeably because of sharpening(original width of blade can often be found just under the throat at the hilt where sharpening did not occur) and secondly shortening by wear and tear at the tip. It can be assumed that swords are up to one eigth of an inch narrower than before(sharpening) and up to 2 or 3 inches shorter at the tip.
The primary reason why these old blades appear sharp not round... is because of this shortening effect caused by age deterioration and wear. Indeed the tip section of say the final 12 inches of blade is quite a lot less thick than the rest of the blade making wear more likely over time.

E.The Funun Mimic Fight. The Funun mimic fight mirrors the technique outlined at B above in that swordsmen engage like dueling boxers in a mobile, fluid, fast moving, whirling encounter darting in and out and not employing thrust strokes at all. The technique is one of cut and slash working with a very fast Buckler Shield action.


Therefor I conclude that the Old Omani Battle Sword had a round tip, now degraded, and that this is reflected in the new dancing sword design. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; At #5 I compared the Old Omani Battle Sword with an Abbasid Sword and need to ammend that accordingly though it is not clear whether in fact the Abbasid could also have had similar attributes in the tip..see http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/turk/TopkapiArms2.html
The ammendment should include that the Old Omani Battle Swords main function was Slash and Chop behind a fast worked Terrs Buckler Shield.

Photos; For interest I show a third picture with 3 swords and the Terrs Shield viz;
The Old Omai Battle Sword with Quillons... Sayf Yamaani.
The Flexible Sayf Dancing Sword.. Straight Omani Sayf.
Kattara curved sword on a long Omani hilt.. Curved Kattara.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi]Old Sayf "Abu Falaj" photo.

Salaams all; A hitherto, not seen on forum, variant in Omani Sayf dancing swords... The "Abu Falaj". (The one with the irrigation channels) In this case three fullers which would normally be termed "abu thalaatha musayil" ...

In the Abu Falaj however the fullers run almost all the way to the tip. This makes for an extra springy blade ideal for the pageants....


The Abu Falaj"[/B] noted for its added spring in the dance and pageants owing to three fullers extending virtually to the end point. This one traceable to a great grandfather is antique. I would say 110 years to be fair. (32 inch blade on an 8 inch hilt.)

Although this is not a fighting weapon it is easy to see how onlookers were fooled because with a concerted effort one solid swipe with this could remove a limb. The blade has no marks except 2 small X marks at the throat; likely to be owners identifying marks.

This Omani Dancing Sword; The Omani Sayf, reflects the same spirit of embodiment of the nation of Oman as does the Japanese Katana for Japan. Here in Oman it marks in celebration the honour of Omans ancestors and is worn with great pride at the pageants which are a living history; a handed down set of enacted poems, music, dances and traditions. The Funun.

Great care is taken when choosing Swords for the Funun. Considerable money can change hands for the right blade with which to honour the fore-fathers of the nation. Some become family heirlooms. The blades are locally made in some cases in the past by wandering gypsy (Zutoot) specialists whist others were, and still are, manufactured in Nizwa, Sanau, Mussandam, Salalah and Muscat.

Blades are sharpenend by the owners in respect of the forebears who fought with the Old Omani Battle Sword and so...It is reflected in the dancing traditions (The Funoon) today by a sword that has never seen a war because it is to honour those that did. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; Picture attached; The Abu Falaj ( The one with the irrigation channels ) Some work is needed to expertly refurbish the scabbard toe and the scabbard furniture has seen better days and will be replaced by mastercraftsmen~ but this is a beautiful, well balanced pageant and dancing sword.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~ Note to Forum.

Re-Comparison of Abbasid sword and Sayf Yamaani The old Omani Battle Sword ... Ammended as below:


The Topkapi museum holds the key. The Abbasid 9th Century Sword in their collection viz; http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/turk/TopkapiArms2.html
is compared to the Omani Short Battle Sword (Sayf Yamaani)as follows;

1. Both are early two edged Islamic Arab Battle Swords.
2. Both blades have an integral tang with an added pommel or cap.
3. Both have three holes in the handle which is similarly constructed with rivets. The top hole apparently for a wrist strap.
4. Both weapons have quillons.
5. Both blades are wing shaped in cross section, thinning toward the tip.
6. Both blades culminate in a round/spatulate tip.
7. Both blades (though not all examples of the Omani sword) have the golden dot or dots on the blade. The dot in Islamic geometry is an important centre of the universe construct.
8. Both hilts are topped with a cap in the case of the Abbasid and an Islamic arch pommel culminating in a short spike on the Omani.
9. Neither blade has risers nor fullers though in much later blades fullers may appear.
10. Both blades are stiff and generally only slightly flexible.
11. Both handles are octagonal in cross section *
12. If the rounded tip concept is accepted; the style of fighting must have been "chop and slash" in both cases.

Since the Abassid were in Oman with garrisons suppressing the Ibadi religious movement, thus, in direct conflict with the organisation led by the Omani Ibn Julanda (First Immam) in 751 a.d. It is therefor additionally evidenced by the 12 factors above that their battle sword was designed from the Abassid weapon and slightly changed to reflect a heraldic hilt or modified to the Omani design. It was called Sayf Yamaani though precise location of manufacture is still being sought; Yemen(Hadramaut), Nizwa or elsewhere in Oman being likely contenders.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

A Partial quote from #307; Elgood cites his reference to the origins of this form and attributes to the Persian wife of the sultan (citing Ruth Hawley "Omani Silver" (Longman group, 1978). I do not have this reference so unsure what details of that reference are.
This tracing of references and sources is one of the best ways to check primary source comments which have often been lifted and paraphrased to see what the original context was.

All the best,
Jim[/QUOTE]

Reference Duly Traced.
Salaams Jim~ On sweeping back I noticed your reference to The Elgood quote at # 307 which inspires me to recommend the simple but brilliantly done pamphlet by Ruth Hawley on Omani Silver (Longman) now out of print (ISBN 0 582 78070 5) In my opinion the best work ever on Omani Silver. For many years and to date this was the only book worth carrying and my copy is in shreads! She indeed does mention the Persian Princess (though not by name, however, there was only one.. "Sheherazade")

"There is a story," she says; that the wife of Sayyid Said bin Sultan, a Persian Princess, grew bored with the curved top of her husbands khanjar, and designed a more ornate one to brighten him up. She is also credited with designing the Al Bu Said Turban. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Reference A; 237 of Early makers trade marks (Jim McDougall)
Reference B; Omani Sayf; markings for ID (Ilyiad)

Salaams all, There is an interesting discussion on European with the addition by fernando of a Spanish Rapier which I have considered omongst other things as evidence toward the problem of which mark was copied onto Arabian blades ? ~ The Perrillo Spanish Dog or the Running Woolf of Solingen?

It is my view that whereas German Swords flooded the African market in the 18/19th Centuries that the running woolf was here earlier in the shape of Portuguese weapons and Spanish (both Navies were in these waters) from the late 1400s. The Portuguese in particular were stationed as a foothold on Muscat where they built forts Mirani and Jelali and other places such as Sohar, Musandam, Bahrain etc... from which blade marks could have been seen and copied by local smiths.
The only definition seems to be that the running woolf is seen as running whilst the perrillo dog is more of a rampant rearing shape.

As a secondary note the discussion involves the blademark of a zig zag snakelike object also seen at reference B. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~ I was backtracking through the library and ran into something on Omani Saifs #7 by Jens Nordelunde an absolute master of Indian weapons in particular and noted his excellent addition to this debate which I now include on this thread~

Quote "Besides all the blades made in the region, they had a big import of blades and ingots from other countries, India being one of them.
With your interest of old blades from the region I think you will enjoy this book - Hoyland, Robert G. and Gilmoure, Brian: Medieval Islamic Swords and Swordmaking. Kindi’s treatise ‘On swords and their kinds’. Gibb Memorial Trust, London, 2006.

In the book the authors tell of the very famous Yemen blade, and a lot of other interesting things about blades." Unquote.

I don't have the reference.. but if anyone has it (and I am searching the web) please help in reference to this so called famous Yemeni blade which may be the link to the Old Omani Battle Sword blade. AKA "Sayf Yamaani" :eek:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~ Note to Forum; High quality silver craftsmanship is still being done today on new Omani swords; take for example this straight dancing sword: The Omani Sayf. Likely provenance is Musandam. Chromed blade stamped on one face with a Crown (locals call Taj) and the other ...a lion with sword raised. Triple fullered. (Thulatha Musayl.)
A sword similar to this can be seen at Bait al Zubair museum in Muscat. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, Now is perhaps a good time to raise the question about those swords at # 1, 28, 47,81, and 144 that defy description as Omani swords but which cry with another voice... Schiavona!!

They are thicker swords which do not easily bend to 90 degrees yet they are two edged probably culminating in a point. Some fullering. Rehilted. These are red sea variants or at least so it seems... however, that can be misleading as they could have drifted in from Italy or Venice and were rehilted in Ethiopian or Arabia or Yemen.

There is another thread with museum swords from Saudia and Yemen..on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10687&highlight=yemen+military+museum

See #1 in particular the second foto right hand blade in glass frame. This thread and #1 first foto is also the source of one of the swords at para 1 above.

Currently on forum are some excellent threads on Schiavona both on the European and Ethnographic Forums ~ It seems like a good time to float the idea of Red Sea Schiavona.

Comments welcome please. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Stasa Katz]

If one is curious about trade and travel routes in the Islamic world in the 14th Century CE, there are many great maps in Dunn's book, The Adventures of Ibn Battuta.

Battuta travelled between Yemen and East Africa, and much later, by camel caravan from Tunisia into the Sahel, hence to Mali and back.

He also went through Anatolia, Mesopotamia, the steppes, Afghanistan, Sindh, and lived in India.

Dunn gives maps for Battuta's various itineraries, describing the modes of transport and times needed.

There is no information given about travel across central Africa between the East and Mali, as Battuta did not take that route.

http://www.google.com/search?q=dunn+the+adventures+of+Ibn+Battuta&hl=en&source=hp&ie=ISO-8859-1&btnG=Search
But one can get an idea of how very many travel routes existed throughout Dal al Islam, for trade and for making the Haj.

Blades and technicians would have circulated far and wide.

One very great discovery was managing boat traffic across the Indian ocean by exploiting the monsoon patterns. India, Muskat/Oman, Yemen/Hadramaut and Mogodishu and surrounding ports would have been well connected.

Even though Dunn offers an overview, his book is very readable and the maps are a big help.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, Now is perhaps a good time to raise the question about those swords at # 1, 28, 47,81, and 144 that defy description as Omani swords but which cry with another voice... Schiavona!!

They are thicker swords which do not easily bend to 90 degrees yet they are two edged probably culminating in a point. Some fullering. Rehilted. These are red sea variants or at least so it seems... however, that can be misleading as they could have drifted in from Italy or Venice and were rehilted in Ethiopian or Arabia or Yemen.

There is another thread with museum swords from Saudia and Yemen..on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10687&highlight=yemen+military+museum

See #1 in particular the second foto right hand blade in glass frame. This thread and #1 first foto is also the source of one of the swords at para 1 above.

Currently on forum are some excellent threads on Schiavona both on the European and Ethnographic Forums ~ It seems like a good time to float the idea of Red Sea Schiavona.

Comments welcome please. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Salaams all ~ The thread to which I draw attention is INTERESTING Ottoman (?) sword.... very old... comments? or just press ...http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=142373&posted=1#post142373

There is a great discussion of Schiavona on the European at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14049 by Vandoo which has magnificent photographs of two edged Schiavona.

I intend to show just cause for the transmission of these blades down the Red Sea. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Al Shamal]

Salam,

I am new to the forum and hope that it is ok to post on this thread. I would like to submit an interesting Kattara i have for comments. See attached photos. The vendor told me it was from RAK (Ras Al Khamiah) and had been in his possession for more than 20 years. The overall length of the sword is 810mm (tip to hilt), with the blade being 645mm long by 20mm at the widest part. The thickness across the back of the blade is 4mm at the widest part. Whilst i have seen similar larger style swords in the UAE/Oman region, i haven’t seen anything this small in size, so would be interested in the forums opinions on origin, use and age, etc :shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salam,

I am new to the forum and hope that it is ok to post on this thread. I would like to submit an interesting Kattara i have for comments. See attached photos. The vendor told me it was from RAK (Ras Al Khamiah) and had been in his possession for more than 20 years. The overall length of the sword is 810mm (tip to hilt), with the blade being 645mm long by 20mm at the widest part. The thickness across the back of the blade is 4mm at the widest part. Whilst i have seen similar larger style swords in the UAE/Oman region, i haven’t seen anything this small in size, so would be interested in the forums opinions on origin, use and age, etc :shrug:

Salaams Al Shamal~ Welcome to the forum!! and thanks for putting this one on here ... This is a Mussandam rehash. I thought at first glance it could have been an attampt at a Flyyssa? The Sword maker has reground the blade giving a rather peculiar shape; retaining the heavy back edge and playing with the cutting edge ...Could this have been a straight blade? The scabbard toe in what looks like brass appears to be European in design but could be Indian Russian or Chinese...nothing like widening the field !! The decoration otherwise to scabbard and hilt are Omani work typical of The Mussandam. It's curved now so it falls more to the category weapon(Kattara) than dancing sword (straight Sayf). Sword workshops in Oman are certainly capable of modifying weapons and I was just in Muscat where I saw a lot of this going on.
The Mussandam crew, however, are famous for doing this.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Solingen sword at #229

Note to Forum; I saw today(in Muscat)that the The Solingen sword at #229 top picture has now been re scabbarded in Sennau. Regrettably the blade had been reground with a power grinder ... tutt tutt !! The blade is clearly marked in the old style of capitals SOLINGEN and to the reverse STAMM STAMM marked as at original description on #229 etc
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams~ Note to Forum ~ Bringing on some more swords following a Muscat Mutrah Souk visit today and yesterday. The general consensus is that big buyers are moving in and snapping up swords and artifacts for museums and collections up the gulf. There are some good items still around but the writing is on the wall. Its going fast.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams ~ Note to Forum ~ and adding to the above post some blade marks to illustrate that Omani blades with marks are copied marks from European makers styles. Illustrated here are the two moon marks, cross and orb, stars and moon clusters (haven't seen a lot of those this is the first) and Passau Wolf... all copied. I have never seen an original European mark on an Omani Sword. Apologies for the occasional blurred pictures. I was wobbly not the camera !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :)

[Al Shamal]

Salam Ibrahiim,

Shokran for your very helpful insights!

:)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salam Ibrahiim,

Shokran for your very helpful insights!

:)


Salaams Al Shamal ~ Thanks, and I look forward to seeing more of your collection.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

Omitted: see new thread

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Note to Library; Odd stamp .. Stag.

Small Curved Omani KATTARA ... The blade apparently a European style ..heavy back edge on an Omani long hilt. Spotted in Buraimi Souk recently. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Note to Library; Odd stamp .. Stag.

Small Curved Omani KATTARA ... The blade apparently a European style ..heavy back edge on an Omani long hilt. Spotted in Buraimi Souk recently. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Salaams~ This is another variant of the stamps available with Ras Al Khaimah sword makers. Readers may recall the Lion with Sword and the Taj Crown etc ... well heres another... The Stag Stamp; "Ras Al Khaimah". The same workshop region is also expert at making scabbards and long hilts. These appear to be by Shehu craftsmen and a similar stamp has been seen on their knife blades also called "Shehi" :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams ; Note to forum. The question as to where the Metalic Long Hilted Red Sea Variant see fits is interesting in that it could be the source of the Omani Long Hilt on both Curved Kattara and The Straight Omani Dancing Sayf.

It is now suggested that the sword is related to an Abassiid form at the Istanbul Military and Yemeni Military museums thus see the entire thread at;


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16205


See my comparison with a sister weapon at # on this thread which needs to be added the very similar attributes on both swords in hilt design
1. Pointed pommel.
2. Pommel not part of the tang but separate though part of the hilt top configuration.
3. Rounded hilt probably octagonal following period mosque styles.
4. Cuffs in both styles.
5. Rivvet supported design in essentially two parts.
6. Quillons in one form and folded quillons supporting the cuff in the other and the slightly different design probably governed by the different length of blades.

In all respects the Red Sea Variant appears as a stretched Old Omani Battle Sword Hilt. In a separate assessment the Red Sea Variant could be the key link as the mother of the Omani Long Hilt on both Straight Sayf and Curved Kattara forms. :D

The question as to a link to the sword in the Wallace is open to speculation and obviously in itself a huge undertaking.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all Note to Library.

See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=152485#post152485 # 27 for an unfolding scenario closely linked to this thread. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all... For simplicity may I only refer to Kattaras and Sayfs on this thread as the other sword (Omani Battle Sword) has its own thread now? It may be an idea for separate Omani Curved Kattara, Omani Straight Sayf, and Omani Shamshiir threads in due course thus focussing the workload and avoiding duplication. Thinking aloud. So I have floated new threads one for each sword type but not the Omani Shamshiir.. yet :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Drawn from recent discussion in another thread I offer my opinions.

Thank you Ibrahiim, this is as I thought you indicated. However, I do not agree that these are only dance swords. Yes, they were used in dance and in today’s circles are known as dance swords but this is not as a be all and end all to the sword.

The original untouched example I presented has a very fine stout and non flexible fighting blade in it, certainly not a dance sword....I should clarify though, if I put it in the floor boards and lent on it, it would bend 2"...but to compare, the Dagestan Shashka presented in my gallery is a very good fighting sword with all the Shashka qualities, feather light, razor sharp and vine flexible and the Shashka I can bend over 45 degrees with some effort. So having a flexible blade or not doesn't account in all instaces that it is a dance or ceremonial sword. Perhaps a blacksmith can chime in and correct me if I am wrong but often the lack of or removal of carbon can account for flexible blades.

I would suggest your post in this thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 is not it's sole purpose of but just a cultural observation of the time, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony.

I know the chicken and the egg theory was discussed in the same thread about its presence in Africa where I suspect it too was used only for fighting as a trade legacy from the east.

The wonderful photos of Tipu with the same sword type, in my opinion supports these swords where a cultural fighting sword and proudly displayed as such.

The gaps in time from the period of early types with quillons you present through to the early 20th century is too great not to consider these as fighting swords even the flexible ones of old.


Regards

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Drawn from recent discussion in another thread I offer my opinions.

Thank you Ibrahiim, this is as I thought you indicated. However, I do not agree that these are only dance swords. Yes, they were used in dance and in today’s circles are known as dance swords but this is not as a be all and end all to the sword.

The original untouched example I presented has a very fine stout and non flexible fighting blade in it, certainly not a dance sword....I should clarify though, if I put it in the floor boards and lent on it, it would bend 2"...but to compare, the Dagestan Shashka presented in my gallery is a very good fighting sword with all the Shashka qualities, feather light, razor sharp and vine flexible and the Shashka I can bend over 45 degrees with some effort. So having a flexible blade or not doesn't account in all instaces that it is a dance or ceremonial sword. Perhaps a blacksmith can chime in and correct me if I am wrong but often the lack of or removal of carbon can account for flexible blades.

I would suggest your post in this thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 is not it's sole purpose of but just a cultural observation of the time, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony.

I know the chicken and the egg theory was discussed in the same thread about its presence in Africa where I suspect it too was used only for fighting as a trade legacy from the east.

The wonderful photos of Tipu with the same sword type, in my opinion supports these swords where a cultural fighting sword and proudly displayed as such.

The gaps in time from the period of early types with quillons you present through to the early 20th century is too great not to consider these as fighting swords even the flexible ones of old.


Regards

Gavin


Salaams Gavin, I have just started a new thread on The Omani Sayf (and one on The Omani Kattara). This straight design is a pageant only sword..dancing only. Not a fighting weapon. I didn't see your blade nor did I perceive its flexibility but you may have a stiff blade (red sea?) on an Omani hilt in which case it could be a hybrid. Ive seen one or two before but they arent Omani dancing blades. Omani dancing blades bend 90 degrees or more. Tipu tip the great slaver didnt have one of these... his was a whopping Kattara curved single edge job.

Please show the blade and any stamps.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Salaams Gavin, I have just started a new thread on The Omani Sayf (and one on The Omani Kattara). This straight design is a pageant only sword..dancing only. Not a fighting weapon. I didn't see your blade nor did I perceive its flexibility but you may have a stiff blade (red sea?) on an Omani hilt in which case it could be a hybrid. Ive seen one or two before but they arent Omani dancing blades. Omani dancing blades bend 90 degrees or more. Tipu tip the great slaver didnt have one of these... his was a whopping Kattara curved single edge job.

Please show the blade and any stamps.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you Ibrahiim,

There is not enough 18th and 19th century evidence to consider the straight form as a dance sword only.

The sword was the high symbol of the warrior. I am still not convinced that by form alone, curved vs. straight that one is separated by use from the other, more so when they both share the same hilts and scabbard types and the straight ones are seen in much higher numbers than the sabres. And why do they all have a sharpened edge in straight form, not something required of a dance sword.
By design, I think it would have been personal choice of what type was wanted and I wouldn't be surprised if W. H. INGRAMS failed to note curved types in the dance fray too.
To consider this is only a dance sword, to me would be like saying Jian and Dao or double edged vs. singled edged Khanda hilted sword have separate purposes.

If I was to follow the thought that straight sword is dance only, I add, when considering the ratio of straight vs. curved types that there was very little adventuring being done by the Omani and they were too busy dancing, something history says is the opposite off.
Also, when the straight form pushed so far west in to Mandingo dress and dress of other regions, that the sword was used and displayed to these western cultures as weapons as I am sure they didn't just dance with them after being in touch with traders.

I again return to the original TVV thread that I would suggest your post in that thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. Do not mistake flexibility for weakness, but an advantage when used in this manner with the flexible sword for cutting and the shield for defense.
I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 is not it's sole purpose of the sword but important a cultural observation of the time with a more common sword used in the dance observed, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony and importance...in much the same way the revered Jian is both used for fighting and also a spiritual weapon in Taoist ceremony and dance. To dismiss the form alone in its national dress as a dance sword is not supported but each sword I would suggest be inspected under it's own merit.

Regards

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank you Ibrahiim,

There is not enough 18th and 19th century evidence to consider the straight form as a dance sword only.

The sword was the high symbol of the warrior. I am still not convinced that by form alone, curved vs. straight that one is separated by use from the other, more so when they both share the same hilts and scabbard types and the straight ones are seen in much higher numbers than the sabres. And why do they all have a sharpened edge in straight form, not something required of a dance sword.
By design, I think it would have been personal choice of what type was wanted and I wouldn't be surprised if W. H. INGRAMS failed to note curved types in the dance fray too.
To consider this is only a dance sword, to me would be like saying Jian and Dao or double edged vs. singled edged Khanda hilted sword have separate purposes.

If I was to follow the thought that straight sword is dance only, I add, when considering the ratio of straight vs. curved types that there was very little adventuring being done by the Omani and they were too busy dancing, something history says is the opposite off.
Also, when the straight form pushed so far west in to Mandingo dress and dress of other regions, that the sword was used and displayed to these western cultures as weapons as I am sure they didn't just dance with them after being in touch with traders.

I again return to the original TVV thread that I would suggest your post in that thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. Do not mistake flexibility for weakness, but an advantage when used in this manner with the flexible sword for cutting and the shield for defense.
I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 is not it's sole purpose of the sword but important a cultural observation of the time with a more common sword used in the dance observed, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony and importance...in much the same way the revered Jian is both used for fighting and also a spiritual weapon in Taoist ceremony and dance. To dismiss the form alone in its national dress as a dance sword is not supported but each sword I would suggest be inspected under it's own merit.

Regards

Gavin


Salaams Gavin I missed a few points on this but will pick up on them on this post... You are right about the high warrior status symbol but status of the forefathers rather than the warriors dancing though they too feel very proud..

I also think that the blades are from two entirely different places and are thus unrelated except by the same hilt .

Many of the curved swords are European made but all the dancing swords Ive ever encountered have been locally made.

I believe the hilt was a simple sensible choice for both blades as it fitted easily and comfortably inside a waistband or sash... or carried at the shoulder in the case of the straight blade.

The reason why there are lots of straight swords is because nearly all males in Oman have them and when they turn out mob handed at national day thousands gather to do the march past all carrying / weilding their pageantry swords...

I am not sufficiently knowledgeable on the Mandingo form to give an opinion on any influence or direction it may have taken. Some indicate the movement of Islam in that direction may have taken sword technology along with it but I am not sure.

I would normally agree about your take on dance form except that in Oman it has another level not obvious to outsiders... The Funoon. Its a big subject but in short it is the unwritten traditions from the beginning handed down through music, dance, and poetry as well as a sort of Pantomime enactment that never changes. In this way they record many events mimicking camel trains, ships trading chests of silver and gold and of course war all set to music drum beat or poetry and singing. For the sword enactments we see the Sayf and Terrs being used but that only took over from the old sword as I say in the mid 18th C. The Funoon goes back to the 8th.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.