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Old 2nd March 2021, 06:58 AM   #31
Jim McDougall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeCanada42
Thanks again Jim , I like the idea of the occurrence of an atavistically inspired weapon.
Thanks for all the great info and photos also . I find the large round form in the center of the grip of some Celtic swords interesting.
maybe Von daniken and aliens don't need to be invoked.
I don't think we know that much anthropologically about the Celts
weren't there Celtic red hair mummies in Asia?
perhaps maybe in History cultures had a lot more dispersal and interaction.
Didn't the domestic chicken come from the east. and Europe was the last place to get chicken farming. following my interest in the rooster/chicken as the inspiration for weapons, I have found some weapons from India , And some from china.
I will post 2 photos soon, 1 sword has a symbol on the scabbard I am curious about.
also about my sword I would like to mention it is also essentially a two handed sword. I will try to get a picture also, I find the pictures say more than words. the sword design being symmetrical also makes it easy to change hands, as the grip is always facing the right way. the point of balance of the sword is 6 inches forward from the bottom grip. I find the bottom grip quite comfortable. I think this is a very functional design, and perhaps the handle may be older than the blade.

Atavistic designs in edged weapons is well known in many cultures who called on iconographic depictions to bring their hereditary weapons into their present and traditions.

The reference to the mummies would be the Caucasian remains found surprisingly in Chinese Turkestan in Urumchi in the 1980s. Their exact origin is unclear but it was certainly far west into the 'Celtic' sphere. A lot of complex and highly debated anthropology there, but the key question with the 'Urumchi' mummies was what in the world were these Caucasians doing that far east several thousand years ago?
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Old 2nd March 2021, 11:52 AM   #32
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Aren’t we overthinking it a bit?

Sub-Saharan African weapons by and large sacrificed their functionality in favor of “ whimsicality”. I can recall very few examples of truly functional serious weapons coming from that area. Zulu Iklwa, swords of Congolese Shi, Masai Seme and some fighting examples of Benin Hwi come to mind. Sure, one could inflict some damage with any fancily formed piece of metal, but when push came to shove, British machete was the preferred choice. Somehow because of that I have never gotten into African weapons.

Even Indians, with their inexhaustible pantheons of gods, their avatars and vahanas were serious about their weapons as weapons first and foremost.

As Tuco used to say, ” If you want to shoot, shoot. Don’t talk”
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Old 2nd March 2021, 03:15 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ariel
Aren’t we overthinking it a bit?

Sub-Saharan African weapons by and large sacrificed their functionality in favor of “ whimsicality”. I can recall very few examples of truly functional serious weapons coming from that area. Zulu Iklwa, swords of Congolese Shi, Masai Seme and some fighting examples of Benin Hwi come to mind. Sure, one could inflict some damage with any fancily formed piece of metal, but when push came to shove, British machete was the preferred choice. Somehow because of that I have never gotten into African weapons.

Even Indians, with their inexhaustible pantheons of gods, their avatars and vahanas were serious about their weapons as weapons first and foremost.

As Tuco used to say, ” If you want to shoot, shoot. Don’t talk”

Point well noted, but actually not necessarily 'over' thinking, as we have been focused on the symbolism of the sword in the opening post of the thread, and possible similarities with other examples.

Naturally there were many distinct fighting forms throughout the African continent, including the almost fancifully styled 'throwing knives', whose actual use in battle of has always been subject for debate. The use of these among others in other manner, such as currency is fascinating. When factoring in the many colonial additions of swords and machetes to the arsenal, it becomes dramatically obvious that the sword was a well recognized weapon for battle throughout the tribal cultures of Africa.

Good analogy on the weapons of India, as the metaphysical properties inherently imbued in them are profoundly regarded, and the many forms actually used are powerfully effective in warfare. Still, highly embellished versions used ceremonially or ritually become notably impaired in combat encumbered by decorative elements.

Thus, in effect we are discussing a rather unique realm in the huge scope of edged weapons in Africa,in this case those intended as symbolic icons or votive elements in ceremony and ritual, rather than those intended for actual combat.

Well used and dramatic tag line from the movie "Desperado"

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Old 2nd March 2021, 07:59 PM   #34
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Quote:
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Well used and dramatic tag line from the movie "Desperado"
Sorry Jim..
This is from “The good, the bad and the ugly”.
Tuco ( “The ugly”) was taking a bath when his sworn enemy barged in and started loudly telling Tuco why he would be killed in a moment. Tucco pulls his hand with a gun from soapy and dirty water and shoots the attacker. Then, the immortal piece of wisdom.

Love this movie......
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Old 2nd March 2021, 08:12 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Sorry Jim..
This is from “The good, the bad and the ugly”.
Tuco ( “The ugly”) was taking a bath when his sworn enemy barged in and started loudly telling Tuco why he would be killed in a moment. Tucco pulls his hand with a gun from soapy and dirty water and shoots the attacker. Then, the immortal piece of wisdom.

Love this movie......

Ahah!!! I was thinking of Buco, in Desperado, a Tarentino western as opposed to Eastwood GBU is a classic!!! This kinda stuff is sorta 'Gospel' here in Texas !
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Old 2nd March 2021, 09:03 PM   #36
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I have settled upon a suitable name for this sword.
The Black Hen
I also picked up a Jian recently that has a dragon on the blade,
I think ill call it red dragon.
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Old 16th April 2021, 04:38 PM   #37
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http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ara+blade+mark

the above kaskara shared on the forum was discussed concerning its symbol, maybe its a coincidence , I think it looks similar to the akokonan.
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Old 21st April 2021, 10:10 PM   #38
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Hi Joe,
Actually that particular marking on the kaskara would be considered mostly not connected to the discussion on the interesting sword you posted in the OP.
While it reflects a degree of the artistic 'style' , the key element, as in much of the art in African material culture is the symmetry.

It is of course, not terribly surprising to not have an exact match in the references and compendiums of African arts as most of this is localized and often individually designed. Bringing together such preferences and notable influences in art will bring remarkable, and 'coincidental' comparisons.

In discussions with a prominent professor of anthropology whose primary field is in African cultures and religions, he suggested this item may be of the Ekonda people, who are a sub group of the Bantu Mongo people. These tribes are situated in the equitorial forests of the Congo in Central Africa, with large concentrations in Bandundu province (western Congo).

While this naturally this cannot be presumed as conclusive, it is based mostly on the symmetry found in some of their material culture with some similarity.
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Old 22nd April 2021, 03:48 AM   #39
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Thanks Jim, for the Good info I will research the peoples you suggest, it does sound like some of the possible locations of origin I briefly looked at while researching the symbol. I agree the similarity between my sword and the blade marking is very likely a coincidence. I just figured since I found the symbol on my sword, I may find the symbol on another, maybe not a kaskara...
I jump around between researching many things, maybe I hope eventually to come across some info concerning the akokonan symbol prior to it being used in Adinkra.
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