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Old 4th August 2022, 07:46 PM   #1
napoleon
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Default Spanish Rapier/Broadsword

Opinions age and origin please
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Old 4th August 2022, 09:04 PM   #2
fernando
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No inscriptions on the blade; no makers marks on the ricasso behind the cup guard ?
Strange; if this is genuine, must be an early example, judging by the pierced hilt and twisted quillons and knuckle guard.
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Old 4th August 2022, 10:36 PM   #3
Jim McDougall
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It is always interesting when a sword is posted without any information, thoughts or observations by the individual posting it. Just photos of a 'sword' or as in this case Spanish rapier /broadsword? are puzzling. I have a hard time imagining acquiring a weapon without any information beyond a cursory note.

Dont get me wrong, I am grateful for the weapons posted, but appreciate at least some notes or observations accompanying the piece, and whatever information the owner has, dimensions, markings, provenance if possible, and any research however minimal that has been made.

This is a very nice cup hilt in style. Most of these of course date in the 1640-70 period with obvious variations outside that general period. As Fernando well notes, there would be markings on the blade, especially on a rapier..which is what this is, having nothing to do with broadswords.

Spanish rapiers however typically have oblate pommels, this with tall capstan looks English. The writhen work on quillons and knuckle guard are consistent with many of these hilts into 1660s, but vary widely, while the style of the terminals looks like on Spanish examples.

The cup is most unusual with this pierced band around the upper part, it seems in most cases the cup is typically either fully pierced, or engraved or solid, and there would be a rompepuntas (folded over rim). The arms inside the cup are also unusual being voluted, and I cannot see a guardopolvo.

With this kind of wire wrap on the grip, in style, there should be Turks heads.

Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th August 2022 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 4th August 2022, 11:13 PM   #4
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Am I wrong in noting there is no ricasso on this blade? Jim, is that why you called it a rapier/broadsword? Fingering this blade could be uncomfortable
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Old 5th August 2022, 02:00 AM   #5
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Dimensions are definitely needed before any further comments can be made. Some transitional rapier/smallswords can look very rapierish until placed next to a true rapier and only then does the fact that they have been scaled down while keeping all proportions intact become apparent. I'm getting that sort of vibe from this piece but with nothing to scale it against there is no way to tell.

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Old 5th August 2022, 02:17 AM   #6
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I second the previous comments; dimensions are needed, there should be turks heads on both ends of the grip wire, and the ricasso is wrong.

Also, I'm unsure over how the cup guard is attached to the crossguard. Normally we would expect to see screws or similar used to attach it to the annelets.

Finally, the knuckle bow shape looks off, either squashed or made in the wrong shape and it appears to have been attached to the pommel?
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Old 5th August 2022, 02:40 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interested Party View Post
Am I wrong in noting there is no ricasso on this blade? [...] Fingering this blade could be uncomfortable
You're not wrong, and that's just plain weird looking. Or maybe it's just some style I'm unfamiliar with. I hope it's unsharpened down there or you'd cut your finger off! Maybe a blade attached to a new hilt in a slightly awkward way?

Last edited by werecow; 5th August 2022 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 5th August 2022, 02:47 AM   #8
Jim McDougall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interested Party View Post
Am I wrong in noting there is no ricasso on this blade? Jim, is that why you called it a rapier/broadsword? Fingering this blade could be uncomfortable

Actually I was referring to the title, which terms this a Spanish rapier/broadsword......as I noted, this has nothing to do with broadswords...however as you note.......that key feature of a rapier is not present either.
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Old 5th August 2022, 03:05 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
Actually I was referring to the title, which terms this a Spanish rapier/broadsword......as I noted, this has nothing to do with broadswords...however as you note.......that key feature of a rapier is not present either.
Could it be a remounted transition blade? I know that the long risacco came along later in the progression from cut and thrust to thrusting swords.
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Old 5th August 2022, 09:22 AM   #10
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The 'wire wrap' pattern looks like it is cut or cast into the surface of the grip, not actually wrapped with wire...


Could this be a Victorian made wall decorator for some nouveau riche lordling's mock castle mansion?
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Old 5th August 2022, 09:56 AM   #11
fernando
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You follow my drift, Wayne .
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Old 5th August 2022, 02:45 PM   #12
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I think we all are following the drift Fernando Do you think the blade and hilt are the same age? An interesting tangent is when did the long risacco become popular? I've searched the site and have not find any transition blades. I've read brief mentions of them, but I have never seen many if any pictures of them only drawings. I would assume they are a simple ring guard with either quillons straight, curved (a little scary for the index finger), or a simple swept design. Do you have any suggested reading material in English or Spanish?
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Old 5th August 2022, 04:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by napoleon View Post
Opinions age and origin please
Age: circa 1870
Origin : France judging by the type of blade
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Old 5th August 2022, 06:29 PM   #14
fernando
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Red face Would i dare ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Interested Party View Post
... Do you have any suggested reading material in English or Spanish? ...
Nothing in particular, only a sum of characteristics that i (think i ) have learnt that make us feel this sword setup don't appear to make sense. I say 'us' because some of such details were already approached here by others.
The arch shaped 'patillas' that hold the quillons down to the cup guard are so (much) worked up that we don't see the usual screws that should fix them to the cup. The cup bowl is pierced in a so crude manner, in that its reverse (interior) looks so unfinished. The lack of ricasso definitely doesn't make sense, be it either short or long; unless as already approached the blade was (again so) shortened. The pommel looks bizarre, probably only to my eyes. The quillons being twisted, as well as the knuckle guard, would put this sword in a early period ... but they look so pristine. Also as approached, the grip wire wrapping ... doesn't look like a wrapping.
Now i will throw a 'disclaimer' in that all i said above doesn't actually have any knowledge support, and shall be regarded as potentially senseless .
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Old 5th August 2022, 06:51 PM   #15
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Default spanish rapier broadsword

well seems to have caused a stir,i used the term broadsword because the blade would not look out of place on a scottish basket hilt,i dont own the sword and am trying to make sense of it,no markings on blade or ricasso as observed,condition is good perhaps to good,i will get dimensions next time i visit ,it has no history i know of, was bought by an aquaintence of mine with a view to resell , the reasons for my posting it are to help decide .thank you all for your imput
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Old 12th August 2022, 08:50 AM   #16
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I have a main gauche, possibly by this same workshop of which I am very suspicious of being XIXth century. Too perfect in the measurements and thicknesses.
The pommel with the crosses remembers me of British Victorian neogothic and horror vacui.
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