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Old 12th October 2020, 01:09 PM   #31
Raf
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Nice graphic. Perhaps you need to add a blind ( decorative } rivit head at the point of your red arrow to make it clear that the rivit head you see on the outside of the tail isn't the same as the one securing the leather . Except at the top and bottom of the articulated section. Although the center strap isn't strictly speaking necessary the assumption is that the springiness of the leather helped the lames to fold in an orderly fashion and not get stuck or rattle around.
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Old 12th October 2020, 06:04 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Besides the possible function the leather straps perform in controlling the articulation, one must consider that, one lame itself can not roll up more than to a limited point, as it meets the upper lame.
Does this make any sense ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raf
Nice graphic. Perhaps you need to add a blind ( decorative } rivit head at the point of your red arrow to make it clear that the rivit head you see on the outside of the tail isn't the same as the one securing the leather . Except at the top and bottom of the articulated section. Although the center strap isn't strictly speaking necessary the assumption is that the springiness of the leather helped the lames to fold in an orderly fashion and not get stuck or rattle around.
This is great. I feel I learned so much about a hitherto neglected part of an object from my perspective. Now I know more what to look for when I next handle armour, especially Zischägge.
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Last edited by Victrix; 12th October 2020 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 12th October 2020, 07:10 PM   #33
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For some relaxation, let me show how an artist views a functional nasal bar.

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Old 12th October 2020, 07:16 PM   #34
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And in case you don't fancy such solution, you can always opt for the hinged three bar version, like this 1640 harquebusier real thing.
(British National Army Museum)

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Old 17th October 2020, 09:57 AM   #35
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When looking through ”Armourers’ Marks” (1959) by Dudley S Hawtrey Gyngell I noticed how armourers in Innsbruck, Austria in 16thC used their initials (one or two letters) as maker’s marks.

My helmet is marked with a Gothic ”S” on the bottom lame on the neck guard which is probably the maker’s mark from Innsbruck, Austria or elsewhere in the Tyrol.
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Old 3rd May 2021, 08:25 AM   #36
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I saw some interesting and relevant pictures in Peter Krenn and Walter Karcheski’s “Imperial Austria, Treasures of Art, Arms & Armour from the State of Styria” (1998).

The first picture shows armour for an infantry or light cavalry officer, 1555-21, probably made in Innsbruck (Austria). Of interest here is the lobed edges/heartshaped rounded crenelations on the top of the armour plates which is similar to my zischägge. There are also brass rivets (presumably removed from my helmet).

The second picture shows armour for a hussar: cuirass, mail shirt and Hungarian-style helmet (zischägge), 1590-1600, made in Graz. Interestingly the helmet skull is fluted. This type of helmet originated in Turkey/Ottoman empire known as cicek and was adopted in Eastern Europe in 16thC and Western Europe in 17thC.

The third picture shows an interior view of the Landeszeughaus Graz (armoury) with another classic medieval hussar outfit on the right, again with a fluted helmet. The fluted area helps to absorb stun impacts by maces and war hammers popular in Eastern Europe and the Ottoman empire.
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Old 4th May 2021, 03:11 PM   #37
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Victirix, that's a beautiful zischagge / burgonet.
I wonder why the neck protection on most of these helmets was composed from several lames, as opposed to a single piece of metal. It's certainly more time-consuming, more expensive to produce laminated armor than beat it out of a single piece.
Being that the articulated movement of the lames is unnecessary, my questions are:
Does laminating make the neck-piece stronger than a one-piece construction?
Does it make it lighter?
Does it make it easier to repair than one-piece construction?
What other benefits are to the laminated construction vs. one-piece?

One possible reason, in my opinion, is that lamination allowed for a better dispersion and/or absorption of force when struck, attenuating the kinetic energy applied to the neck piece, whereas the one-piece neck protection would not have that "give", and would transmit the force to the helmet body, potentially with a fatal result.
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Old 5th May 2021, 05:07 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry View Post
Victirix, that's a beautiful zischagge / burgonet.
I wonder why the neck protection on most of these helmets was composed from several lames, as opposed to a single piece of metal. It's certainly more time-consuming, more expensive to produce laminated armor than beat it out of a single piece.
Being that the articulated movement of the lames is unnecessary, my questions are:
Does laminating make the neck-piece stronger than a one-piece construction?
Does it make it lighter?
Does it make it easier to repair than one-piece construction?
What other benefits are to the laminated construction vs. one-piece?

One possible reason, in my opinion, is that lamination allowed for a better dispersion and/or absorption of force when struck, attenuating the kinetic energy applied to the neck piece, whereas the one-piece neck protection would not have that "give", and would transmit the force to the helmet body, potentially with a fatal result.
I’m not a professional expert on these matters but merely an amateur enthusiast with a curious mind. I have asked myself similar questions concerning these zischägge. Some general observations include: 1) these helmets were worn by light cavalry which were used for speed, aggressiveness, surveillance etc so they probably needed lighter kit which allowed for greater movement rather than thick armour, and 2) interestingly hussar cuirasses also tended to be created with overlapping lames so that was the technique used, which might have been similar to Ottoman and also Byzantic methods. I think the Ottomans were less keen on full plate armour suits and preferred mail, perhaps partly because of heat/ventilation considerations.

The lamination of the neck guard doesnÂ’t make it stronger but probably allows it to be lighter by using thinner lames which overlap rather than a large sheet of metal which needs to be thicker and heavier. The lamination makes it easier to tilt the head back to look high upwards towards mountain crests or castle towers. In the case of the cuirass it might be easier to produce with lames and require less artisan skills, and in addition it could be altered to fit the wearer.

Other possible reasons could be, as you suggest, that the lamination would absorb some of the shock if struck whereas a solid piece would force the head backwards if impacted. I had the curious idea that one could lie down to sleep with the laminated zischägge, which surely must not be relevant. But it would be relevant that a laminated neck guard might be preferable if thrown off the horse and landing on your back which might break your neck if you had a solid neck guard. I’m sure there are practical reasons for the laminated neck protection, even with the questionable need to bend one’s neck.
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Old 5th May 2021, 05:31 PM   #39
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Extremely well put, Victrix .
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Old 5th May 2021, 06:36 PM   #40
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Plate armour evolved from integrating little plates into chain mail, or making armour with overlapping scales or lamellae, then Brigandines made with small but easily made plates. Fabricating large pieces of consistent High Carbon steel into large shaped plates, and heat treating them came last.

It is very expensive and time-consuming to make and fit a suit of full plate and keep it not only light enough to wear, and flexible enough to fight in, while not letting those pesky Welsh/English rostbifs poking arrows though it into your expensive flesh.

Mail, scale, lamella armour, and brigandines are easier to make and fit. - and don't require as much work to adjust as you get older and put on a pound or two. And are good enough for the Hoi Polloi and peasants. (And even lower status knights and men at arms.)

Mail is boring to make, drawing wire, winding it on a mandrel and cutting it into rings, or punching washers for 1/5 of the rings, flattening the cut wire ends or the whole ring, and punching the ends for rivets, then assembling in mind-numbing regularity while carefully riveting the ends closed is a job for the slaves, in any case, or at least the peons. Good plate takes more skill and expertise. Only the very richest and most politically powerful could afford full articulated and highly decorated plate proof against longbow, crossbow, and sword/axe and lance.

But not against some slovenly low class smelly peasant hooking you off your expensive horse, knocking you on your back and poking a cheap ballock dagger thru your eye slit.

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Old 5th May 2021, 08:44 PM   #41
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Wayne, you've got PM.
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Old 8th May 2021, 11:53 AM   #42
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Some more on fluting in armour from Peter Krenn and Walter Karcheski’s “Imperial Austria, Treasures of Art, Arms & Armour from the State of Styria” (1998). The fluting/corrogation added strength to the armour without adding weight. This was common in Maximillian (Austrian) armour which blended German Gothic and Italian styles. I suggest it also added Ottoman features as fluted helmets were common there, some suggest to resemble folds on turbans.
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Old 8th May 2021, 08:01 PM   #43
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Fluted armour indeed adds rigidity and blunt force impact resistance. It's like using corrugated iron roofing as opposed to flat sheet metal. Makes little difference to penetration by sharp and/or fast moving projectiles, unless the valleys in the fluting are designed to guide any projectiles into glancing off. It's the hardness and thickness that counts then.
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