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Old 28th October 2016, 11:31 AM   #1
eftihis
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Default Ottoman bulbous barel wall musket

Here is a 17th century (approx 1670) ottoman long wall gun (1,80cm length).This type of bulbous barell was first used in matchlocks, and this barel must be re-used from 16th century. Question is why these barels have this bulbous end? And how this gun was used? There is a strange surface on the down side as if it was attached to something else and may be used as a swivell gun.
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Old 28th October 2016, 04:56 PM   #2
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Great find, Eftihis.
It retains most of the characteristics of the Catalonian guns from which it is derived. This form of muzzle is called "lale" (la-LEH) or tulip. Most barrels were heavily reinforced at breech and muzzle to keep them from exploding in use; past a certain point, it simply became stylistic. Persian, Indian, and other barrels often show this trait as well (or similarly, a substantial flare, with or without some sort of animal or monster head.)

Please show a pic of the right side of the butt all the way up to the lock.

Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 28th October 2016 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 28th October 2016, 07:21 PM   #3
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Here in Greece we call tradititionaly this type of barel "armuti" from the turkish word "armut"=pear (due to shape). Below is a graf from the "Marsili Luigi F. - Stato militare dell'impero ottomano" In the bottom low is a barel with this bulbous end.
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Old 29th October 2016, 05:13 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eftihis
Here is a 17th century (approx 1670) ottoman long wall gun (1,80cm length).This type of bulbous barell was first used in matchlocks, and this barel must be re-used from 16th century. Question is why these barels have this bulbous end? And how this gun was used? There is a strange surface on the down side as if it was attached to something else and may be used as a swivell gun.
Again, you have only beautifull things!
A lot has been said by Oliver and I'm sure Rick will answer to your other questions. I think the lock is old too. For me it's a quite homogeneous gun from the end of 17th c. as you said, including the barrel.
Best wishes
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Old 29th October 2016, 08:58 AM   #5
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Default Α Similar barel

HEre is a similar barel from the Historical and folk art museum of Rethymno in Crete.
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Old 29th October 2016, 08:15 PM   #6
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Eftihis, your musket is certainly Balkan and most likely Serbian. The barrel from the Rethymno Museum is from the same region.
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Old 30th October 2016, 05:36 PM   #7
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Hi Eftihis.

Nice find indeed !! What an interesting wall-sized gun. It does seem the barrel from an earlier matchlock was re-used with a later stock and miquelet lock added. The re-use of older barrels being fairly common. And this would be a good example. And likely Balkan made as Oliver suggests. The interesting features I notice on this gun:
Barrel: While the so called tulip style muzzle would add strength to help prevent muzzle damage, I believe was mostly a styling exercise. You can see the two grooves on the muzzle of your barrel where the twin blades of the front sight once resided, like the barrel from the museum. The twin blade front sight picture seems fairly common on early Persian made barrels (see photo below).It's a beautiful barrel with some wonderful chisel work.
Stock: The butt stock is styled similar to a Dzefeder long gun. Which just adds to it's likely Balkan origins. What is interesting is the barrel is held to the stock with pins versus the typical barrel bands. This suggests that the older barrel was fastened to it's older original stock with pins. Thus the pin fastening method was re-utilized in making the gun in it's existing configuration. Just a theory. The barrel could be considerably older than the stock/lock. The ring on the rear, left side of the stock suggests there may have been an arrangement for some type of carrying sling. Possibly another ring or other devise towards the muzzle end, now missing. It does seem the forend of the stock may have beed cut back sometime during the period. Possibly due to damage. As the ramrod would be too short to load with.
Lock: The larger proportions of this miquelet lock tells me it was made for this gun. Or at least a wall-sized gun. The long, narrow jaws of the hammer and the pan area lacking a fence, remind me of Circassian styled locks. But I'm sure it's Balkan made. The simple, yet decorative file work on the lock is interesting. The longer support arm giving away the larger than normal size of the lock.

Again, a really nice find. Another gun I wish I had seen first. LOL
Congratulations.

Rick
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Old 30th October 2016, 07:52 PM   #8
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Thanks for all the comments,well noted! It seems that this type of stock was a widespread stock in some point in Ottoman history arround 17th century. I dont know why, and I would like to ask Oliver if he can show any example of the Catalan guns this style is derived from.
We can see 3 muskets with similar stocks in H. Ricketts and P. Missilier, "Splendeur des Armes Orientales", Paris, 1988, pp.31-2. I believe this is the type of stock that dzefeder derives from.
Finally I attach a photo from a museum where among the shishane type of muskets there is one of this form.
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Old 15th March 2021, 07:03 PM   #9
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Default misplaced origin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
Great find, Eftihis.
It retains most of the characteristics of the Catalonian guns from which it is derived.
I disagree. The shoulder stocks on long guns characteristic of Cataluņa have a distinct "boot shaped" profile, with a prominent angular "toe". Very early ones were of elliptical section but soon the characteristic cross-section became flattened, with squared-off bottom contour. See this photoprint from W Keith Neal's Spanish Guns and Pistols showing the progression over quite a long time, speaking to the longevity of this very conservative design in Spain.,

The stock of the gun under discussion here is a design originating in the gunmaking center of Brescia, in the Italian region of Lombardy. Compare the profile of the gun on this thread to these line drawings from Nolfo di Carpegna's Brescian Firearms. Note that this style comes in both elliptical and polygonal cross-sections. The profiles are rather consistent, and are distinct from those of Catalan guns. Looking at these, it's not hard to see where the design of the dzheferdar stock came from. Considering the role that the Republic of Venice played in the politics and economy of the Balkans and eastern Mediterranean for centuries, and the importance of the arms trade in its mercantile activities.
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Old 15th March 2021, 09:52 PM   #10
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The wheelock gun is from a museum in Croatia. They dont state if it is imported or localy nade. The other photo is of the Italian (Brescian i think) type, and finaly a similar shape described as turkish. It is obvious as you say where the dzheferdar style came from and this looks like a step before dzheferdar.
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Old 15th March 2021, 11:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eftihis
The wheelock gun is from a museum in Croatia. They dont state if it is imported or localy nade. The other photo is of the Italian (Brescian i think) type, and finaly a similar shape described as turkish. It is obvious as you say where the dzheferdar style came from and this looks like a step before dzheferdar.
Wonderful pics, thanks! The miquelet gun is a stylistic hybrid. The stock is classic Brescian, 16th-17th style used also with wheellocks, but the lock is a version of the miquelet developed in central Italy, called a Roman lock although there's no evidence that it was invented in Rome. You will note that this lock is mechanically different from the Spanish "patilla" type miquelet that we have been discussing. This is because its mainspring pushes down on the front of the cock, whereas the Spanish (and therefore Ottoman/Balkan/Persian) versions have the mainspring reversed, it pushes up on the rear of the cock, in order to do the same job. Also, the Roman and Spanish locks have a different system of sears, the little levers and wedges that control the cock and connect it to the trigger. I have not yet seen an Ottoman-made Roman lock. Probably it was not popular in Eastern countries because its sear system is more complex and requires greater skill to manufacture with the necessary precision. It also requires more careful maintenance.

It seems to me that the wheellock mechanism on the other gun is imported, perhaps from one of the Germanic countries. Again, I can't find convincing evidence of a wheellock being made in the Ottoman Empire, admittedly examples of any Otto gun with such a lock are not common but published examples all display imported locks. The same remarks apply to the gun with the Scandinavian / north European snap lock. These things do tell us something about the extent of trade between the Ottomans and the rest of Europe.
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Old 22nd March 2021, 08:12 PM   #12
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I found these photos from Vienna museum, they are desxribed as 17th century guns.
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Old 22nd March 2021, 08:18 PM   #13
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Very nice, high quality and superb condition. Possible trophies taken during the 17th cent. wars against the Ottomans?
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