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Old 2nd February 2017, 03:57 PM   #1
La Pagaru
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thanks for allowing me to join here
for the beginning I want to ask the opinion of the members here of prestige in this keris. Thanks before
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Old 2nd February 2017, 05:39 PM   #2
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Welcome to the forum. It would be helpful if you posted some images of the entire blade as well.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 06:05 PM   #3
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thanks have been received in this forum, this is a kris kris new artificial ground work of empu/panre in Sulawesi, and glad to meet you here sir david
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:20 PM   #4
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Yes La Pagaru, it looks like contemporary work. Would love to see more of the blade for a better sense of the over all garap.
As a point of process, like all new members you are in moderated status which requires that a moderator (myself or Rick) approve you posts before they appear. So if you don't see your post immediately please don't re-post. Either myself or Rick will get to your post in short order and pass it on to the forum. Thanks!
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Old 3rd February 2017, 02:47 PM   #5
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I don't know much about Indonesian Kerises, but I certainly like the pamor of this one and would love to see the whole blade!
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Old 3rd February 2017, 07:47 PM   #6
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There is no keris upon which to pass comment, there is only a short section of very badly executed pattern welding.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 08:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
There is no keris upon which to pass comment, there is only a short section of very badly executed pattern welding.
Hi Alan. Hopefully we will see more of this keris eventually as additional photos have been requested more than once, but in the meantime, perhaps you could expand upon your comment on bad execution for some of our members with less experience than you in the actual mechanics of the process. It is always best to display the entire blade along with detail shots when presenting a keris for discussion, but since La Pagura did specifically ask for opinions on the pamor (google translated that word as "prestige") what makes this pamor execution bad and why?
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Old 3rd February 2017, 09:55 PM   #8
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The pamor has been made by taking two twisted rods and welding them together.

The weld that joins the two rods should be tight and not display any gap.

Look closely at the joint between the two separate pieces of twisted material from which the pamor has been made.

There is a particular technique that is used to achieve a tight, clean joint with the technology available to smiths in Indonesia. The maker of this keris has not yet mastered this technique. I am not at liberty to explain this technique.

The forge work involved in making a keris is smith's work. Many, many empus and pande keris do not do their own welding, usually it is the makers who are just starting who do their own forge work. As soon as a maker gets a bit of a name for himself, he'll only pick up a hammer to have his photo taken. Forge work is hard, hot work. My normal weight is 82 kilos, if I do 6 hours of forge work, especially welding, that weight will drop to 79 kilos.

The empu's job is to know the techniques used to produce the pamor patterns and the correct dimensions and form of the finished forging. He uses the forge workers as if they were tools to produce these results. The smith needs two helpers (panjak) for heavy forging, he needs one helper for most other things.

In olden times the empu would normally have four, or even five, helpers on hand during the forging of a keris, and he would move these helpers around so that no one man could ever see enough to understand the full process. I own a copy of an empu's text book that was written under the aegis of the Surakarta Karaton. This text is very explicit in explaining how and when the various helpers are to be used.

Karyo di Kromo did exactly the same thing with Isaac Groneman.

To return to this keris.

I suspect that the garap of this keris will be pretty acceptable, but the forge work is not yet good enough.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 09:58 PM   #9
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Well, even for less experienced members like me it is clear that the welding line between the two bars has been blurred (it doesn't run with Ada-Ada), the frequency of Pamor motif (correspondence between bars) also runs wrong.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 10:42 PM   #10
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I'd be prepared to accept the way in which the lines of pamor are aligned as OK, not good, not a master's work, but acceptable.

The fact that the weld joint does not run with the odo-odo is something that is less than good, but a less than expert smith can still be capable of technically proficient work.

The thing I cannot regard as acceptable is the poor weld joint running between the two pieces of twisted pamor. This joint is not technically proficient.
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Old 4th February 2017, 02:26 PM   #11
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Keris on proses
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Old 4th February 2017, 05:46 PM   #12
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Thanks for that explanation Alan.
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Old 4th February 2017, 07:20 PM   #13
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Thank you Alan for the explanations!
I find particularly interesting your explanations on how the old time empus used to work keeping their aides busy in order to protect his know-how.
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Old 4th February 2017, 08:45 PM   #14
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This behaviour pattern is still evident in Jawa, and it does not just apply to making keris, it can be seen at every turn in ordinary life.

An example that I think I might have quoted previously involved a little booklet on how to make keris, that Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo published. It certainly told how to make keris, but with the omission of one step that would not be obvious to anybody who did not already know that step.

Women who are acknowledged as good or great cooks will freely give their recipes to anybody who asks, but those recipes always have something missing from them.

Panembahan Harjonegoro was notorious for giving misleading and incomplete information to people who asked for his assistance in keris and other cultural matters. In one reasonably well known instance of his deception, a major Indonesian art book that was written by a foreigner contains straight out lies in respect of a keris shown in the book. Lies that were concocted by Harjonegoro for the express purpose of putting the author into a situation where those who already knew the subject would understand that the author did not understand much about the subject at all.

There are certain societal standards in Jawa that govern the giving of knowledge:-

1) all knowledge is worth money, thus no knowledge is ever given free

2) deep knowledge will usually only be given to a direct descendant, usually a son or daughter, sometimes a grandchild; where no suitable direct descendant is available, but another suitable candidate to receive the knowledge is available, that person will normally be adopted to make him/her a part of the family.

3) in any case, knowledge is never given to anybody unless that person is deemed to be ready to receive the knowledge.

This pattern is apparent at a lower level, where even in a casual verbal exchange people almost never give accurate information in respect of a destination or purpose.

You're going to the market to buy some pisang rojo?

Somebody asks where you're going, you're off to the post office to post a letter.

In Jawa nobody but a fool gives accurate information unless it is absolutely essential, and nobody provides gratuitous truth at any time.
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Old 5th February 2017, 03:08 PM   #15
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I hope you look at the making of this keris in the corner of reviews ethnic Bugis, because this is not a keris Javanese, Bugis kris kris is that we make in accordance with patrem and in accordance with the instructions set forth in the records of our ancestors left behind. You will be amazed at what Bugis masters could do, and maybe you can find my name in the book heirloom weapons Bugis Ubbe abe work and friends,
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Old 5th February 2017, 03:11 PM   #16
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at the time of the unprocessed
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