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Old 23rd June 2011, 08:01 PM   #1
sirek
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Default Seeking pamor information ??

WHO CAN HELP ME TO IDENTIFY THIS PAMOR?

SOMEONE TOLD ME THAT THIS PAMOR COULD BE:
WALANG-SINUNDUK? BUT I’M NOT SURE ABOUT IT.

YOUR OPINION/ ANY COMMENTS WIL BE WELCOM,
I WOULD APPRECIATE IT VERY MUCH

THANKS IN ADVANCE
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Old 24th June 2011, 03:12 PM   #2
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No idea about the pamor, nevertheless an exceptional blade. My compliments.
It should look even more beautiful after etching.
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Old 25th June 2011, 12:49 PM   #3
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GIO, thanks for your compliments.

Here is a picture with his sarong.

further nobody who can tel me anything about it?
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Old 25th June 2011, 12:54 PM   #4
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Very fine ensemble, congratulations!
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Old 25th June 2011, 01:29 PM   #5
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Very nice keris! Would sort this pamor in maybe to the family of lar gangsir or ron kendhuru!? The pamor seems washed out at some places.

Regards,

Detlef
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Old 25th June 2011, 03:19 PM   #6
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As to pamor I agree with Sajen: this could be a variation of ron genduru.
The hilt is obviously Maduran and the selut suggests me a Banjarmasin influence. In conclusion a great piece !
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Old 25th June 2011, 03:29 PM   #7
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Thanks for your comment:

Quote:
The pamor seems washed out at some places.
Quite possible, here and there the design is raised above the level of its background: “Like a carving in relief.”

One of the guess that it that it could be: walang-sinunduk comes from a Dutch book: "Pamoratlas” by: Ing.ean.Veenendaal.
Page 86 shows three drawings/pictures of: pamor walang –sinunduk
the middle one shows some similarity in appearance, but I found so far nothing else to compare.

So I am still open to any suggestions
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Old 25th June 2011, 04:12 PM   #8
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Nice keris
IMO: a kind of lar gansir. Also walang sinuduk possibile
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Old 25th June 2011, 09:15 PM   #9
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Hello Sirek,
This blade has a very strong Madurese flavor and Walang Sinuduk is a Javanese pamor so is it applicable? The name game would say Alan?
Best regards
Jean
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Old 25th June 2011, 11:27 PM   #10
A. G. Maisey
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Alan would say:- dealer's montage, recent blade.

But a pleasant looking piece composed of nice individual components.
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Old 26th June 2011, 08:42 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Alan would say:- dealer's montage, recent blade.

But a pleasant looking piece composed of nice individual components.
Thank you Alan, this was my impression too about the blade because of the roughly applied pamor especially but I agree that it is a nice piece overall.
Best regards
Jean
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Old 26th June 2011, 08:14 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Alan would say:- dealer's montage, recent blade.

But a pleasant looking piece composed of nice individual components.
Thank you all for your comment,

Mr. Maisey it is possible to explain why this blade is not old?
I know I ask you to do this through a photo, but I would appreciate your explanation.
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Old 26th June 2011, 11:48 PM   #13
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Based upon what I can see on the computer monitor in front of me, this blade looks recent.

My opinion is based purely upon my experience and what I can see.

I am unable to provide a course in how to identify recent Madura blades, or blades from other origins, by way of the internet.

It becomes a matter of :- "if it looks like a cow, its a cow"

However, my opinion could change if I held it in my hand.
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Old 27th June 2011, 12:00 PM   #14
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Thanks, Mr. Maisey for your reply.

I understand what you meant to say,

It's not easy to convert experience/ knowledge into writing.
But I still hope that once someone find a way to document your knowledge,
so that people such as myself who has not grown up in a keris-culture
could acquire more knowledge of the complex world of the kris.
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Old 27th June 2011, 01:41 PM   #15
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Sirek, the really big problem for me is trying to work from photos on a computer monitor.

In virtually all cases, those photos are very much less than good, and even with really excellent photos, what I see, and what everybody who looks at their own computer monitor sees, is altered by the many processes that the image that is put into the camera goes through before it arrives on the screen.

In other words, what I see, and what each of us sees, is at best only an approximation of the actual keris.

However, to distinguish between recent and old, good and poor, genuine and false is something that even a person with much knowledge and experience often has a degree of difficulty with when the object is right there in his hand.

However, there are some indicators, or "tells" that tend to push an experienced person's opinion in one direction or another. Sometimes these tells are very plain, sometimes they are not, so often when the opinion is formed it must be regarded as only an opinion, not something that is known with certainty.

When I give an opinion on a blade like yours please remember it is an opinion only. It is not an infallible pronouncement. If I held the blade, my opinion could change.

However, in the matter of the combination of the various components of this keris, the matter is entirely different. I do not need to see the same amount of detail, nor to examine it in the same way as I do with a blade. A slight difference in the angle of the photograph is not so important, a slight variation in colour or texture doesn't really matter. I can see just about all I need to see in even a poor photo --- and your photos are by no means poor.

How to pass this sort of knowledge on?

I do not know how.

It would be possible to draw up some sort of primer, but it would be about as useful to the average collector as a text book on probability theory would be to a student who had not yet completed primary school.

I simply cannot see any substitute for long experience. I'm sorry.
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Old 27th June 2011, 06:49 PM   #16
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Mr. Maisey, I respect your comments.

That’s exactly what I understand
As an example, knowledge to recognizing antiques also comes from experience, an antique dealer cannot judge based on an image as something is hand-carved or that the item is modern high pressure pressed.

You need to know how something was made in the past, so you can look for the characteristics of the handicraft. Exactly as you did when you forged your own Keris, such experiences will almost none of us ever experienced.

You must understand that often our only source of information is based on books. And as you indicated, you watch your books yourself rarely because the information often is incorrect.

Everyone who place a commented, experience the same problem give an opinion based on a photograph, but the important thing for me is that there are people from all over the world that share the same hobby and willing to help each other with their own experiences.
Therefore commend based on minimal information, such as only advice/guidance is valuable information is for me (and others I think) also because that person has taken the trouble to give his personal opinion/comment .

I hope I've expressed myself well because my native language is not English
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Old 28th June 2011, 11:41 AM   #17
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Hello Sirek,

Where did you obtain this Keris ?
Is the blade a proper fit with the wrangka ?

Best regards,
Willem
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Old 28th June 2011, 05:16 PM   #18
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The keris was owned by a Dutchman (I knew him not further)
But after he had passed away it came into my possession.

Later I tried to get some information such as:
- how and where the keris had come into his possession
- since when it's in the Netherlands
but unfortunately that information was no longer available


The fit is acceptable, only slightly worn out
(I do not think it’s adjusted to fit)
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Old 28th June 2011, 11:22 PM   #19
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Thank you for your understanding, Sirek.
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Old 8th July 2011, 08:33 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirek
WHO CAN HELP ME TO IDENTIFY THIS PAMOR?

the pamor looks like pamor "ganggeng kanyut" ; ganggeng = algae, kanyut = drift in water
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