Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 23rd March 2021, 05:40 AM   #1
TxHunt
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 1
Default Identification Assistance - Battle Axe

I respectfully appreciate any help members of this Forum have in authenticating and identifying what I have been told is a battle axe. The weapon was purchased from the estate of a sixth generation military family from Texas in the United States. The wife told me her deceased husband taught military history at West Point and was a major collector of military weaponry. His father was a graduate of West Point. The wife called it a battle axe but had no other history. I am hoping it is authentic and not a fantasy piece as it has become a favorite within my blade collection. In advance my thanks for advice and guidance.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by TxHunt; 23rd March 2021 at 03:30 PM. Reason: Better Description
TxHunt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2021, 04:45 PM   #2
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,955
Default

Bump.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2021, 07:11 PM   #3
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,055
Default

Conan the Barbarian or Xena warrior princess
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2021, 09:20 PM   #4
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,476
Default

Glad somebody bore the bad news, nice story though .
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2021, 02:10 PM   #5
Gonzoadler
Member
 
Gonzoadler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Germany
Posts: 166
Default

Reminds me of a boarding axe. I would advise you to make more pictures and ask again in the European weapons subforum.

Regards
Robin
Gonzoadler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2021, 02:39 PM   #6
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,347
Default

It seems very well and robustly made to be a fantasy piece ?
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2021, 02:49 PM   #7
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,415
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzoadler
Reminds me of a boarding axe. I would advise you to make more pictures and ask again in the European weapons subforum.

Regards
Robin
Let's give it a try, then
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2021, 02:53 PM   #8
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 3,184
Default

TxHunt,

Welcome to the Forum!

Would you mind posting some dimensions of this piece? Also, some pictures of the writing that appears on the shaft just below the head of the axe would be helpful. That may offer some clues as to origin.

Last edited by Ian; 29th March 2021 at 01:01 AM. Reason: Spelling
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2021, 09:12 PM   #9
midelburgo
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 120
Default

Is there something written?
midelburgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2021, 09:38 PM   #10
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 3,549
Default

Reminds me of an Imperial German (Prussian) Fire service presentation or parade axe, as below, but older, maybe another German state or another European nation further east. European fire axes tended to be smaller, hatchet size, than American ones. I can't make out the marking on the side languet, can you post a better macro photo of any markings. Other German guilds (like miners) used fancy parade axes, and very uniquely headed ones too. Polish Nobles liked small headed (but longer) axes, most as rank symbology, such as my Obuzek also below with a heavy spike opposite the axe head end.

Yours Looks too fancy and short for a weapon or a boarding axe, more a status item. Still wouldn't like being hit with it.

Dimensions and weight would help...
Attached Images
  

Last edited by kronckew; 28th March 2021 at 09:59 PM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2021, 03:44 AM   #11
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 1,824
Default

Yeah, this one throws me a bit. If the construction were slightly different, I might suggest a 'Halberd-style' tomahawk ax from the trade period. Believe me, there are some real odd ones out there that many would assume were fantasy pieces but in fact real. The thing is, the langet on the end of the haft, the cut-out to the bottom of the blade that Wayne has succinctly shown resembles Euro dress fire axes, the grip resembling a military type battle axe, makes me wonder. Just not so sure on this one!
Attached Images
  

Last edited by M ELEY; 29th March 2021 at 03:55 AM.
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2021, 06:30 AM   #12
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,347
Default

I vote for it being Indian, some sort of ankus (elephant goad) type item or similar.
Attached Images
    
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2021, 10:06 AM   #13
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 3,549
Default

I considered the 'Halberd' style, but the apparent size is wrong, my Indian Sindh spike/dagger axe (the pommel unscrews into a dagger) looks about the right size head - some came with back spikes instead of spikey trunk elephants, but has a much longer haft. It's top spike is also fairly useless.

Doubt it's an Ankh, they were very specifically made with a spike and hook, no axe blade. The Hook was for guiding an elephant's trunk, while the spike was used to euthanize the elly if it went berserk and attacked its own side, it was driven into the elephant's spine just behind its head with a hammer which was part of an ankh weapon system. Again, OP's axe is too small & the haft end unsuitable for hammering and the spike wouldn't kill anything -it'd likely make an elly rather angry... The chain on a pommel ring is another anomaly. who want's a sharp axe with pointy spikes swinging around on the end of a chain near them? If it had a weight on the end of a longer chain, would it be a Japanese kusari-ono?

I add my French fire axe below, probably also of similar size to the OP one, it looks almost exactly like a french boarding axe, but doesn't have the belt hook and the haft is a few inches too short.

(don't have or want an ankh because it is sole purposed to kill elephants.)

All in all indeed an enigma hidden inside a conundrum.

p.s. - if the OP's axe turns out to be 2-3ft. long in the haft and weighs a kilo or so, I may be more inclined to refer to it as a 'battle axe'. for now, i'll think of it as a Texas battle-tomahawk.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by kronckew; 29th March 2021 at 10:45 AM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2021, 12:19 PM   #14
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,415
Default

Has anyone already suggested a pole weapon head... adapted to a shorter handle ? The possible (modern) writing on the langet is not a good sign, though.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2021, 01:02 PM   #15
CSinTX
Member
 
CSinTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 195
Default

Agree with the others. It appears to be a weapon but I've not seen anything like it. A close up of the chain might give some clues.

Welcome from another Texas member. What part of the state are you in? I'm in B/CS.
CSinTX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2021, 06:01 PM   #16
Elmereya
Member
 
Elmereya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 48
Default

pictures from the theme about the weapons of the landsknechts.
gorgeous tool.
with respect.
Attached Images
  
Elmereya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2021, 06:08 PM   #17
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 3,549
Default

Interesting pry bar finial, presumably for prying open a gap to skewer an opponent inside their armour.

Looks a lot bigger than the subject Texas tomahawk. Looks like it has a rather nasty crack in it too.

I wonder how that guy breathes in that fancy suit. Reminds me of a Victorian whalebone corset.


.

Last edited by fernando; 29th March 2021 at 07:10 PM. Reason: No photo needed, Wayne; the reminder in text is clear enough !
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2021, 11:32 PM   #18
Elmereya
Member
 
Elmereya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 48
Default

Beautiful picture from the 15th century
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Elmereya; 29th March 2021 at 11:59 PM.
Elmereya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th March 2021, 12:27 AM   #19
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 3,549
Default

Warhammers. beq de corbin/lucerne hammers

Last edited by kronckew; 30th March 2021 at 12:39 AM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2021, 05:07 AM   #20
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 920
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
Interesting pry bar finial, presumably for prying open a gap to skewer an opponent inside their armour.

Looks a lot bigger than the subject Texas tomahawk. Looks like it has a rather nasty crack in it too.

I wonder how that guy breathes in that fancy suit. Reminds me of a Victorian whalebone corset.


.
Would help to have some identification of the painting, artist, date. To rule out it being, say, a Victorian-era historicism.

That implement the guy is carrying reminds me of a slightly fancier version of a box hatchet, complete with the pry/nail puller finial, in the catalog of a tool distributor who imports them from India.

Haha, breathing in that outfit ... maybe, like ladies in the antebellum South, they carried vials of smelling salts to revive themselves after frequent swooning due to lack of air!
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2021, 12:31 PM   #21
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,415
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
... Haha, breathing in that outfit ... maybe, like ladies in the antebellum South, they carried vials of smelling salts to revive themselves after frequent swooning due to lack of air!
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd April 2021, 11:40 PM   #22
Gonzoadler
Member
 
Gonzoadler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Germany
Posts: 166
Default

How I still wrote boarding axes are more or less similar to the showed piece, too. Here is an interesting side about boarding axes: https://www.boardingaxe.com/
Under "AXES by NATION" you can see many different models.

Regards
Robin
Gonzoadler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2021, 12:44 AM   #23
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 3,549
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzoadler
How I still wrote boarding axes are more or less similar to the showed piece, too. Here is an interesting side about boarding axes: https://www.boardingaxe.com/
Under "AXES by NATION" you can see many different models.

Regards
Robin
Mostly LESS similar, at best only vaguely similar.

None of which remotely look like the one originally posted -except the fire axe i'd mentioned earlier. Even the 'halberd' axes were not similar. Except for one with a similarly short spike which was described as 'useless' as a weapon.

Dimensions would be more revealing. And so would a decent photo of that inscription.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th April 2021, 09:12 AM   #24
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 707
Default

The axe looks legit to me, just new to us on the forum. I would say worst case is a 19th century presentation or decorative axe, and best case Eastern European battle axe of the 17th C or earlier.

Regarding armour, the stuff was made to fit, weighed less than a current grunts full kit, and most of the weight borne by the horse. Here is me in my old harness, it gets hot as hell and you sweat like a pig,but no worse than that it is for the guys in Iraq.
Attached Images
 
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th April 2021, 03:10 PM   #25
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 920
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David R

you sweat like a pig,.
Horses sweat like we do, but not pigs. That's why they need to immerse themselves or wallow in puddles to cool off.
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th April 2021, 03:16 PM   #26
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,415
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
Horses sweat like we do, but not pigs. That's why they need to immerse themselves or wallow in puddles to cool off.
... Which makes us think they like to rollabout in dirt puddles ... for the fun of it .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th April 2021, 03:26 PM   #27
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 920
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
... Which makes us think they like to rollabout in dirt puddles ... for the fun of it .
On a very hot day it might be a matter of survival for them.
This is an animal that tends not to thrive in environments like the depths of the Sahara desert.
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th April 2021, 04:41 PM   #28
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 3,549
Default

I know a lady with what was once a 'micro-pig' house pet that puts sunscreen on her 300 lb. 'baby' now that it lives outside. The boar, George, of similar size that lives in the pasture next door is pure black, but there is shade available & i've never seen him wallow. He lives in a herd and prefers staying near them. The herd consists of two Alpacas,two retired thoroughbred horses, and George.His owner hugs him and squeezes him and calls him George even tho he is not a bunny rabbit.

Most of the religions in North Africa and the Middle East do not like the little rotund bacon factories and one especially fears touching them in any form or even looking at them, another reason you seldom see them there.

Last edited by kronckew; 5th April 2021 at 04:53 PM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th April 2021, 04:57 PM   #29
NeilUK
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 101
Default

With ref. to post 16, the painting is a portrait of a knight of the Rehlinger family, done in 1540 by Master LS and now residing in Berlin. Following that how about this portrait of the Marquess of Brandenburg in 1520, complete with battle axe!
Neil
Attached Images
 
NeilUK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th April 2021, 06:44 PM   #30
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 920
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
I know a lady with what was once a 'micro-pig' house pet that puts sunscreen on her 300 lb. 'baby' now that it lives outside. The boar, George, of similar size that lives in the pasture next door is pure black, but there is shade available & i've never seen him wallow.

Most of the religions in North Africa and the Middle East do not like the little rotund bacon factories and one especially fears touching them in any form or even looking at them, another reason you seldom see them there.
I wonder how long it takes for your lady friend to apply sunblock on a 300 lb piggy (by the way, how old is it -- if still a young 'un I wonder if he be a Hogzilla in the making, or perhaps a reincarnation of the Calydonian Boar of Greek legend, waiting for another Meleager and Atalanta to come and dispatch it with their spears).

Maybe she might be interested in the gadget that currently occupies a spot in my kitchen -- a cast-iron rotating hog oiler made by the Columbian Co. ca. 1900. Medicinal oils (to repel bugs) are poured into the tray and pigs are supposed to get the stuff splashed onto their skins as they rub against a suggestively porcine-shaped object. Ag equipment collectors love these since dozens of patents were issued in the US; they fell out of use when efficient sprayers became available.

Re: religious objections to Wilbur, you can see these raised as far back as the Old Testament. No animal that didn't chew cud AND have a cloven hoof was kosher, but Mr Piggy was singled out as being especially objectionable. Maybe because of wallowing in mud? Or the habit of sows of eating their newborn in panic if they feel threatened while nursing? Dogs are likewise frowned upon, was it because that they lick their privates and many like to eat scat? I once read an anthropologist's economic take on the anti-porcine stance of Scripture, which in essence states that since pigs are not suited to being raised in a hot arid climate by nomads always on the move, they represented a needless luxury and inconvenience. in a social-economic system that ran pretty lean to begin with. Interesting. I think it was a multiplicity of things.

Anyway, to Jews and Mohammedans, a pigless life must not have been such a hardship. More bacon and sawsidge for the rest of us! As a Jewish friend once told me, an observant member of his tribe would have been forbidden to play football, but nothing in the Torah would bar him from owning the team.
Attached Images
 
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.