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Old 17th February 2024, 04:56 AM   #31
Peter Hudson
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Default Ottoman Pallash.

Likely contender as a copied hilt for the Zanzibari Nimcha...
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Old 19th February 2024, 03:38 AM   #32
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Forum Library shows that we had a beam of light shining on this subject about 10 years ago ..

Please see http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17160

Note also at this reference the excellent anc clear detail of what I have noted is part of the Royal Signature or TUGHRA hammered into the Quillon ends on sword examples in that thread. It also contains the fine picture of the Ivory comb with gold inlay typical on some Zanzibar Nimcha examples etc etc
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Old 19th February 2024, 02:26 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Hudson View Post
... PIRACY IN INDIAN WATERS IN THE SEVENTEENTH CENTURY RUBY MALONI*
... Satish Chandra has argued that the corsairs could only succeed where their ships could outmanoeuvre or outgun an ordinary ship. In this context K.N. Chaudhuri's reference to " a clear naval Portuguese superiority over Asian ships" has to be re-examined. The Vasco da Gama period in Asian history, as Steensgaard names it, was not a uniform period of European naval superiority. Asian naval techniques and strategies were neither backward nor passive. Portuguese ships were not necessarily bigger than Asian; but they did carry cannon as a matter of course, while at first Asian ships did not...
I wonder whether these two 'book size' posts (#29 & #30) are necessarily the full contents of the link provided above in the first place. If i may (also) change course from the Pirate Cutlass topic, i would elect a couple paragraphs that, in my humble perspective, are put by the authors in a rather (intentional ?) simplistic manner.

"Satish Chandra has argued that the corsairs could only succeed where their ships could outmanoeuvre or outgun an ordinary ship."
Not necessarily so. One screaming example is the battle of Ormuz in 1507.


"In this context K.N. Chaudhuri's reference to "a clear naval Portuguese superiority over Asian ships" has to be re-examined. The Vasco da Gama period in Asian history, as Steensgaard names it, was not a uniform period of European naval superiority."
The Vasco da Gama period took place in the early 1500's, not in the 17th century. But so were Cabral and Albuquerque and a few others, with similar level of achievements and evident superiority; and cruelty... let's admit it.

"Asian naval techniques and strategies were neither backward nor passive. Portuguese ships were not necessarily bigger than Asian; but they did carry cannon as a matter of course, while at first Asian ships did not.
Not so simply as just Cannon; but implying quality (bronze versus iron; breech loading) quantity ... and the best way to use them; composite ammo, further reach, ricochet waterline shot.

Nowithstanding all this glory only lasted for a couple centuries !!!.
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Old 20th February 2024, 03:42 AM   #34
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Default The Cultural factor of common spoken arabic in the Indian Ocean.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/yh...1&action=click


Many thanks for your input on the Indian Ocean and the part played by Portugal. When comparing the trade situation I think it fair that Portuguese methodology differed some what from that of Ottoman since Portugal used Armed Trader techniques and Ottoman trade was conducted with less firepower and more diplomacy...
And there are Island nations in the Indian Ocean that did request to purchase Ottoman Cannons etc.

Video style educational techniques have developed a long way in the last two decades... The above reference is an excellent and vey quick way to bring up the facts in a clever graphic technique I would reccommend to members.

The fact that the Ottomans spoke arabic must surely have placed them at an advantage and the fact that they didnt force local ships traders to purchase Trade Licences may be taken into account.

I base the main difference on the spoken arabic ...trader language at the forefront of why Ottoman designs would be likely to have been the order of the day...not Portuguese.

Excessive levels of cruelty may have been a disadvantage as weilded by Portuguese against local inhabitants is well documented but I have not described that here.

From my viewpoint it, the Jstor documant, shines a light on a subject I knew so little about but emphasises one very important factor for which I thank the Jstor article in my previous reference ...That of the vital Cultural reason behind trade in The Indian Ocean ..That of the Lingua Franka of the spoken arabic language common right across the region

. It was this common trading lingo which formed the framework for friendly trade relations and one which I believe strongly influenced design flow in weapons ...In this case from the PALLASCH of the Ottomans to the various NIMCHA described in the Buttin Charts.

A note here to quickly frame the influence on North African coastal and Morroccan Nimcha developed separately since the Meditteranean was really only on the Ottoman doorstep compared to the massive distances around the Indian Ocean and its tributaries of the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf...not to mention the Bay of Bengal and all stations onward almost to China...

But again I need to emphasise the Jstor document as illustrating the CULTURAL reason of the spoken arabic as vital to understanding the growth in Trade and thus the acceptance of weapon design and is why we see PALLASCH HILT form above at post 31...and on arabian nimchas....shown on Buttins charts etc.

In observing the added net effect of the spread of Islam across the Indian Ocean and beyond plus the pilgrim routes too and from Mecca also spread similar forms of design flow and very similar designs in Dress, Jewellery, Food style, Houses, Mosques and Fortress style, Ship design, Poetry, Song and Dance, and now underpinned by these disclosures similarity in weapons design.

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Old 20th February 2024, 01:05 PM   #35
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Default Just 'en passant' ...

So it seems as 'lingua franca' had its variants ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca
"Portuguese served as lingua franca in the Portuguese Empire, Africa, South America and Asia in the 15th and 16th centuries. When the Portuguese started exploring the seas of Africa, America, Asia and Oceania, they tried to communicate with the natives by mixing a Portuguese-influenced version of lingua franca with the local languages. When Dutch, English or French ships came to compete with the Portuguese, the crews tried to learn this "broken Portuguese". Through a process of change the lingua franca and Portuguese lexicon was replaced with the languages of the people in contact."
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Old 20th February 2024, 04:24 PM   #36
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Interesting discourse guys, thank you!
In beginning this thread my objective was to discuss some swords (cutlasses as it were) which I thought were aligned with the so called 'pirate coast' situated on eastern littoral of Arabia. What evolved has become even more fascinating and comprehensive thanks to the great entries here.

Actually, not surprisingly, it turned out these examples were actually from regions in Yemen and from familiar types there, with the expanse of Yemen and its profound external contacts experiencing a spectrum of variations in the swords present.

This revealed that Yemen was but one center in the vast sphere of sword forms, from those distinctly recognized and via the keen desperation of many collectors, and often scholars, to inclusion in the typically jargon oriented glossaries of what have become known loosely as 'collectors terms'.

The intriguing discourse here exploring the evolution of these vast spheres of colonization, indeed much of which was pioneered by Portugal in the 'Age of Discovery' in the 14th century, offers an interesting comparison.

Much in the way the necessary development of the 'lingua francia' concept, which in not confined to one particular pairing or amalgam of languages, the diffusion of weapon forms traveled through cultural spheres profusely.

By analogy, the styles and elements of hilt forms evolving throughout the vast cultural spheres and colonized regions becomes comparable to the diffusion of languages, and of course the evolution of 'lingua francia' language forms, which evolved into a sort of amalgam the prime languages. In comparison to the evolution of words in the lingua francia becoming a commonly recognized language, the styles and elements of swords from other cultural spheres prevalent in a region, became incorporated into locally favored styles.


With the complexity of the vast trade systems, and the confounding networking within presents the equally vast conundrum of trying to classify these various sword forms and their variants. While we try to use the blades in identification, despite being able to distinguish them typically through their character, markings etc. these were so widely traded as a commodity. In addition, blades were commonly replaced through the working lives of swords, which kept them circulating through many generations in many cases.

While there has been through the years, an understandable relative futility in trying to accurately classify these forms and their variants, I am glad to have the shared expertise and knowledge clearly exchanged here bringing these plausibilities and well supported observations into a comprehensive look at these conundrums.

Expansion is a good thing, as it is of course growth, and rather than deviation I see the growth of this thread in these expanded angles of observation toward the knowledge needed to better understand the diffusion of these sword forms.
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Old 20th February 2024, 04:39 PM   #37
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Hello Fernando,
Thanks for your post. Yes I have seen your reference which also states the case for spoken Arabic. Quote"Arabic was used as a lingua franca across the Islamic empires, whose sizes necessitated the need for a common language, and spread across the Arab and Muslim worlds" Unquote.

In dealing with the peculiarities of two essentially regional designs of Nimcha i.e. The Moroccan and The Zanzibari; The common denominator is The Ottoman Empire and driven by the linguistic situation in both Regions meaning The Indian Ocean and its surroundings and The Meditteranean. It can be seen that Arabic was the lead Language ...in its spoken form...The primary Lingua Franka. Thus it was a CULTURAL situation.

It may be seen that in this case where a ship bourne sword was required and that applies in both Moroccan and Zanzibari requirements...that a tried and tested Cutlass type of sword would be ideal for ship defence and boarding party attacks ...

I use the term Form follows Fashion in the same way that court swords in Europe became shorter since they were often carried at Court and worn under the Court Dress Jacket....and these Jackets became shorter so the swords did the same...Thus it can be envisaged that the Nimcha swords of both regions followed many quirks and foibles specific to the regions it entered...

The most extraordinary variant is probably the Zanzibari Nimcha...which somehow sports a Turtle atop its Pommel, An odd squigle on the quillons similar to the Tughra of the 19thC ruler, Circular Sworls on the Scabbard Leather ...Weird gold over Ivory decoration on some VIP swords but overall a fascinating resemblance to a horses head grip and Pommeland almost exactly the same look as the Ottoman Pallasch hilt.

I insert here a note about the Knuckle Guards... since the squared Moroccan hilt was designed to ride up high on the chest almost under the left armpit which neccessitated a squared off knuckleguard as a rounded form wouldn't work but the squared off item did as it fitted flat against the ribcage...A rounded Knuckle Guard tends to make the weapon roll.....In the Zanzibar variant the sword was worn formally on the belt and simply followed the same form as the Pallasch in that respect. The blades were changed probably since the Ottoman item was very expensive looking at the Islamic inlay and lighter cheaper blades were available from German sources for Morocco and Hadramaut or Indian sources for Zanzibar.

Conclusion. Based on the similarities on the hilt of the Ottoman Pallasch and using the features outlined by Buttin in his quite detailed charts and from the history of the Ottoman Navy in the Indian Ocean and backed up in our own Forum Library my view is that the Pallasch is the prime suspect in the design flow across both regions in the case of both the Arabian and African variants...and seek the support from Forum to make that assessment.


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Old 21st February 2024, 08:44 AM   #38
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Peter,

You have laid out a lengthy argument for your case that the palash influenced nimcha styles. I think this deserves a more scholarly setting than our humble forum. Have you considered writing this for a journal? I'm not sure of the appropriate place for such an article, but perhaps our forumites might suggest one for you.

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Old 22nd February 2024, 12:56 AM   #39
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This thread is almost tied to http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21833 where many other clues are situated. I reccommend both threads be viewed as there are overlapping and interlinked posts showing fine details of the design influence now being closely observed...As an example of the relevant links here is what could well be the original hilt form of Nimcha swords across all the recognised types. Some accounts describe the shape as a horse head and I do not disagree on that. Clearly the blade has been replaced in all the variants I have viewed and there are different regional variations on add ons alterations and materials on the hilts and Quillons and Knuckleguards but the basic form is retained.

Quote" Pallasch; Culture: blade - Italian, Milan (with Ottoman decorations), mount - Ottoman, vessel (Hilt?) - Morocco
Dated: 16th Century
Material and Technique: blade of iron, forged, etched and engraved grip of iron, wood, horn
Measurement: total length of 107.7cm; blade 93.9cm; weight 1817g

Elector Christian I of Saxony received the saber as a gift in 1587 by Francesco I de ‘Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany. This weapon is one in many respects to the peculiarities of the Turkish Chamber. First and foremost, the impressive appearance is mentioned, which is caused by the massive, ornate edged blade.

This saber is made of very different work areas. While the vessel(hilt?) is from Morocco and the typical form there corresponds with strongly angled work and s-shaped quillons, the blade is an Italian work. She has been a chosen, and was crowned Pi marked accordingly in Milan. (what is Pi ?)

The blade was then decorated in the Orient. The etched and partly engraved decoration consists of medallions with stripes and scrolls, flowers and leaves. The middle stripe is a Spanish inscription found in a secret script-like character.

How did this strange mixture of different origins (come about) is not yet clear. Could possibly play in the events following the reconquest of Spain by 1492. Many Spanish Jews left the country after the conquest of Granada and moved some of North Africa in the dominion of the Ottomans."Unquote.

Source & Copyright: Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden.

When I wrote up this reference I had not suspected as I now do that the influence into and across The Indian Ocean and Mediterranean was because of Ottoman expeditions in those regions however I now have a clearer view that this is the case. It remains a staggering fact that almost 50 styles of Nimcha are shown in Butins charts and that there are even more cloned hilts not yet assessed.

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Old 22nd February 2024, 01:50 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Peter,

You have laid out a lengthy argument for your case that the palash influenced nimcha styles. I think this deserves a more scholarly setting than our humble forum. Have you considered writing this for a journal? I'm not sure of the appropriate place for such an article, but perhaps our forumites might suggest one for you.

Regards,

Ian
Dear Ian, For the time being I am pleased to leave this work in the realms of Forum for discussion but welcome your remarks . In my 40 yers in Oman I was intrigued by this sword form as well as the Omani Sayf , and Kittarah etc and the general situation in Zanzibar. I am convinced that The Indian Ocean is key historically to much of the conundrum but especially that surrounding the Nimcha style. Previously no one considered the common language of spoken arabic (The Cultural Effect) as central to the solution on design copying on weapons, however, almost everything was copied and subject to this phenomena...Thank you for your support.
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Old 22nd February 2024, 11:58 AM   #41
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Default The Swords of Oman and Zanzibar Inspired by Saaid The Great.

Saaid The Great ruled Oman and Zanzibar during the early to mid 19thC from about 1804 to 1856. Several well known design features entered the history books either invented by him or inspired through one of his wives...including The Royal Turbanand Royal Cammerbund, The Royal Hilt on his adopted 7 ringer Khanjarand given his name, and the same style of hilt given to the Royal form of the old Omani Battle Sword called Sayf Yemani. In addition a sword with sharpened on both edges and carrying a long almost tubular hilt was placed by him as an item for dancing showing off its flexibility and being included in the famous national treasureThe Funun This dancer also became a heraldic and military presentation appearing on march past gatherings and at weddings and adorned with the shield...The Omani Terrs ...It was given the honour of being present at important meetings and at bothe Eids and as well as occasionally being highly decorated in silver adornments it could also meet the demands of the mass market in a much less expensive form and was still loved by the people. Saaiid moved the Omani Capital city to Zanzibar in about 1830 and transformed the Islands into a collosal herb growing region...and removed with others the Portuguese invaders chasing them south to Mozambique etc. Zanzibar became a massive trading and slave Hub and in about 1840 another sword appeared which was a single crved blade which Saaiid The Great gave the same Omani Long Hilt and as a shield the same Omani Terrs. The sword had a multi role purpose not only as a formidable weapon but as a badge of office seen on the waists of Omani slave traders passing through the Omani friendly Bunyoro Kittarah which incidentally was where the blade had been noticed on swords probably of German origin ... Cavalry swords... It marked the Omani hunters and Traders from a great distance as having permission ...right of passage and safety from attack was thus assured. Pictures of Omani individuals are sketched in the Zanzibar slave markets equiped with these weapons often with the Terrs slung over their backs and armed with Omani Kittarah as they became known.

Meanwhile the Navy needing a cutlass weapon and having seen the Nimcha styles we know existed through illustration ; the hilts... stiched in with silver thread or hammered in on a hot anvil...Some delicacy is required as the minute floral decorations on the actual Tughra are repeated on the copied stylistic quillons on the anvil..These were dynastic swords and this is what he must have ordered... He wanted his name on them... In fact his Tughra .
And although not on all weapons there are certainly a great number that carry this insinignia. See below.

I have described the Cultural process on this thread... through the use of one singular Lingua Franka (Spoken Arabic.)..common to most players.
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Old 22nd February 2024, 12:04 PM   #42
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For Clarity here again is the detail...showing the Omani Dancer/ The Omani Sayf with the Rulers Tughra.
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Old 22nd February 2024, 12:09 PM   #43
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Just adding a few words about the applied decoration and what I have identified as a sort of Royal Signature on Omani and Zanzibari weapons... and this work applied using quite rudimentary equipment either stitched onto leather or hammered onto steel hilts/quillons though not onto all the examples
which suggests to me that those VIP richly decorated swords may well have been presentation items and or high ranking business owners or Officers in the Omani Navy. Those swords of a lesser grade / munitions grade probably not so lavishly adorned nevertheless a degree of transfer identified in common design style. I tend to see some potential copying from the main style in Ottoman style plus style from other previous Omani types as well as unusual additions such as the Turtle motiff...and with a regional probably inexpensive blades ...and the black leather Scabbards complete with a sworl pattern. The apparent horses head hilt when finished in Ivory and gold imported from African trade operations into Zanzibars artesan workshops Joins the array of incredible designs and the broadened bottom third points at Malibari style seen on Moplah.

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Old 22nd February 2024, 02:23 PM   #44
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Default Crowned Pi ...

The "Pi", as it is read, is a Greek symbol attributed to Milanese workshops, although some authors suggest that it might be a Styrian mark, as often found in blades of the Zeughaus at Graz in Styria. Not impossible to be seen in a number of centers as a (spurious) mark to indicate supposed quality, like Toledo or Andrea Ferrrara.


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Old 22nd February 2024, 04:20 PM   #45
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Default Some touch ups.

The sword shown in post #39 by Peter is superb. An interesting feature is that the blade is marked (SIC) "four times on both sides"; way too many for what we usually see out there. Also in the main description we can read that the inscription on the blade is a "Spanish inscription in characters similar to cipher", but in the additional information it reads "Klinge Inschrift (spanisch): reyna de las espadas" = Blade inscription (Spanish): reyna de las espadas (read Queen of swords). Therefore the cipher was already cracked by or for the Museum.
Back to the main description, the Museum appears to suggest a Jewish connection with this sword details based on numerous Spanish Jews having left Spain after the reconquest, moving to North Africa in the dominion of the Ottomans.
According to Enciclopedia Judaica, from the 165 000 Jews that abandoned Spain in 1492, only 32 000 are 'estimated' to have gone to the North African coast, 20 000 to Morocco and 10 000 to Algeria. It happens that Morocco, the larger slice, despite numerous attempts, was never under Ottoman domain. On the other hand and, in a strict'er (?) translation, the Museum decription says that, after the conquest of Granada, numerous Spanish Jews left the country and moved, some of them via North Africa, to the Ottoman territory.
To say that the Jewish community in Granada were intimate with the Muslims, which worsened their situation by the time of their expulsion. Some of them were even craftsmen selling their services to the occupiers, sword smiths included. Who doesn't know the famous Julian del Rey, the Jewish sword smith master allegedly converted and baptized by the Spanish Catholic Kings, who was said to have worked for Boabdil, the last Nasrid King of Granada
I suppose that their mode to decorate swords would be rather different than the mode favoured by the Ottomans.



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Old 23rd February 2024, 11:02 PM   #46
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In none of the blades ...Butin shows almost 50 examples, the designs copied are not of blades but of Hilts... Especially in the case of big broad highly decorated European blades too heavy for the task as Cutlasses...Much lighter blades were provided to both styles in Arabian and North African forms.. Zanzibar had access to Hadramauti, other Yemeni and Indian blade making centres...Nimcha in the Meditterranean had access to European blades...Because there are no broad blades in any Nimcha types thus I dont think this was ever considered...

Going back many years the puzzle over Nimcha has baffled everyone...likely because of the blade situation when in fact that is outside of the problem... It was a hilt quillons and scabbard that were needed not blades. Zanzibari form went further with expensive Ivory and gold hilts and the same may be said on some North African examples. Thus it may be that we will never identify the original weapon since that is irrelevant. What we can see is how a hilt form fits the equation but to that has to be added the regional oddities (In the case of Zanzibari Nimchas ) of The Turtle, The Hilt decoration,The D Knuckle Guard , the peculiar quillons, the inscriptions on the equally peculiar quillon endings and the scabbards....

However the design differences are understandable since this is typical of the Omani Ruler who only a few years before had altered the entire hilt of The Sayf Yemaani...adding instead the hilt form which one of his wives had redesigned ...and which also was the new hilt form for a new format Royal Khanjar.....AND of course the invention of a totally new Dancing Sayf with the very flexible blade sharpened on both edges..and presented it with the Omani terrs shield..AND then not only resetting a German curved Cavalry blade discovered in the African Great Lakes with an Omani Sayf hilt striaght from the dancer hilt design.......he struck it with the name previously unheard of calling it after the country in the Great Lakes in which Omani traders were operating...Bunyoro-Kittarah....The Kingdom of The Sword....thus a totally new weapon arrived; The Omani Kittarah..... also awarding that with The Omani Terrs.

From my perspective trying to find the original sword from which the Nimcha originated is impossible...but likely contenders may well be identified for some aspects of design flow..Likely contenders are probably Ottoman Spanish or Italian forms perhaps seen aboard some of the vast numbers of foreign Traders from as early as the 15thC in the Indian Ocean.but several aspects have nothing whatsoever to do with other weapons and are down to regional quirks...outlined above.

Other swords that may have influenced these design aspects include possibly shapes such as is seen on Kastane and broader Foible widths from weapons off the Malibar Coast such as Moplah.

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Old 4th March 2024, 10:39 AM   #47
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Default About algerian nimcha

Hi mates, here with you Khaled, your Algerian (France based) blacksmith, and collector to serve you (you probably read me before about bousaadi khodmi). Please pardon my poor english

Everyday, since maybe a year, I tell to myself that I have to make a REAL post about Algerian swords, and history (I'm also wtritting a book about that subject, but its a deep a long work, I hope to share with you soon.

Well, havent read everything, but I HAVE to add some details first, then I'll read the rest

WHAT ABOUT ALGIERS ??

As reminder, Algiers, was like TORTUGA in the famous movie.. For centuries (dont know really when it begun, but it ends with french colonisation in 1830), Algiers was one (may be THE) of the most feared, and protected area of all mediteranean see. Many famous "barbary" pirates, were europeans that flew to africa to escape a judgement in europe. One of them was "jack Asfour", "Asfour" mean "bird" in arabic... yeah, the same guy that inspired the fictionnal movie, in caribean see. I let you google that (I think this one was mostly based in morroco).
Well, just to notice, that for centuries (long time before ottoman period), Algiers was the principal port, from where goes many attack to europe, and where was based one of the most (and again, probably THE MOST, depending to the period) fleet of all mediteranean see. That lead to many things... Algerian weapons, are STRONGLY in relation with that. I'm not gonna talk about Flissa, that's very particular. But the ALGERIAN NIMCHA is an object that you can easily trace the origin, it you know what to look.

1/ THE HILT : a nimcha isn't a particular sword, this is just a name given (by europeans collectors, locals generaly call that "saif", that mean saber, and some rare models with a FLISSA sword confirm that use) to those kind of swords, showing that "arabic" hilt. However the origin of the hilt shape, the algerian model is truely different. Most of them show those "TWO SPINES" on the bottom, giving another shaper of pommel than morrocan, or other coutnry models.
The shape is close to the ZANZIBAR model, but straight, not a "falling pommel". Of course they are not on all algerian nimcha, but when you see one, it is certainly one.


3/ WIDE BLADE : The shape of the sword is probably the most effective difference between algerian, and other country (especially morroco, or tunisia) nimcha. What the culture took as "tipical pirate sword", is also mostly influenced by this period, when algerian was terrorizing the see, and the near coasts (many exemple of "razzia", and attack on european coasts, Corsica, Italy, Spain, France , etcc even in the north of europe, all of this, still before ottoman period of algeria). So what they was...? PIRATES AT BOATS, so their swords has to give the effeciency, for naval fights. A WIDE and CURVED sword, that gives the iconography of the "cimetar" in the modern folklore. As a comparaison, a morrocan nimcha is usually a straight sword, thiner but longer, more used for cavalery.

4/ BLADE ORIGIN : As you know, a nimcha isnt (in the most examples..) a full local craft. This is a foreign sword, adapted to an a local hilt and guard made for the occasion. First, there is many reason for that.
---> lot of war stock... Every ennemy boat beaten, and every coast ravaged, gives to algerian a lot of weapon, so why the algerian craftsman should forge, what their neighbour bring by the see everyday... Adding to that the commercial counter
(dont know the exact word) of Genovese, Venitian and other commercial kingddom, on the algerian coast. They trade with algerian for centuries, even when their country was in war. That big trade gives a lot of consequancies in algerian and north african crafts, as the well known morrocan JENOUI, or algerian AJENOUI (other name for a flissa in Kabyle), that refers in the acient time to the origin of the STEEL of the sword, and NOT the shape of it (sorry I talk too much ) .
----> Sword quality : Even if the algerian craftsman still do swords, we are in an era (ottoman period) when europeans forge great quality swords, in bulk, when algerian only craft by command, by piece (as for a flissa), not the same that the emerging industry in europe. So, of course, a european sword is at this era, a more qualititative, and less expensive solution, to algerian swords.
SOOOOOO, if you're still with me, you can have a good indication about how to know the origin of a nimcha, by the origin of it sword. For exemple, an italian sword, or a "SARDAIGNE" sword, has all the chance to define an algerian nimcha, more than any other. With the time, you will also notice some ottoman swords mounted on nimcha hilts (mostly in algerian, where was the ottoman..), some kilij swords for exemple. In that period, not only "nimcha" type hilt was used, but also some models more "persian", as for a shamshir handle.

Well, I hope those details will help to know a bit more about that great period of algerian history, and all the influences in relation with it.
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