Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 27th November 2023, 09:00 PM   #1
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,641
Default Another sword; another challenge

Doesn't the hilt look Spanish ... Boca de Caballo and all ? Doesn't the punzon on the blade ricasso look Spanish, or at least in the Spanish (Toledo) fashion ? Yet it doesn't come in Palomares nomina. As it might have a different origin. Could it be a composite ? That decoration on the blade; what could it represent ? The pommel is the screwing type.
It would be so nice to have some comments on this one.



.
Attached Images
         
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th November 2023, 10:32 PM   #2
Radboud
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 224
Default

Do you have a close-up of the thread on the tang? Looks quite fine and precise in the image shown.
Radboud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2023, 02:48 AM   #3
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,738
Default

This is a total anomaly, and in risking a totally speculative assessment, the thing I think of is a Spanish 'pappenheimer' type weapon with saber blade which seems to be perhaps Styrian or S.German (by the fullering, decoration). This would be of course mid 17th c. contemporary with Pappenheimers as well as Spanish cup hilts, shell guards (margarite).

Perhaps this might have some connection to Spanish Netherlands ? (1556-1714).

The punzone on the tang does not appear in Palomares*, but is Spanish in manner. In Kinman ("European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks", 2015), p.142, a similar mark with C under crown in dotted cartouche is shown as Zamorane el Toledano, noted pre-1700.

This mark is the crowned C, but with what seems an S (?) enclosed. This could be a spurious 'Toledo' mark as used of course in Germany (Solingen and Munich) and this blade seems 18th c. .

In Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962) there are numerous cases of older hilts mounted with later blades, so these kinds of pairings are far from unknown.
I have a 1750-60s British basket hilt which was infantry used, but in 1783 they stopped carrying swords. The swords went into stores.
At some point later my example was refitted from the straight blade to a M1788 light cavalry saber blade....I have seen two others with this modification. It is hard to say what would prompt these changes, but personal favor or heirloom hilt to a more contemporary blade would seem plausible.

* corrected, the mark does appear in Palomares #94

Last edited by Jim McDougall; 28th November 2023 at 02:26 PM.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2023, 02:59 AM   #4
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 384
Default

Palomares nomina? What is the complete name for this work?
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2023, 11:15 AM   #5
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Interested Party View Post
Palomares nomina? What is the complete name for this work?
Herewith his chart on marks and names. I will send you two PDF's on Palomares (father and son) by email.


.
Attached Images
  
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2023, 11:19 AM   #6
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,641
Default

Jim, thank you so much for your previous input . I will duly process it myself and after pass word to the sword owner.
Zamorane el Toledano also appears in Palomares but, as you say, not properly the same thing.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2023, 02:21 PM   #7
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,738
Default

Fernando in seeing the nomina in larger size, I see #64 which comprises the son of the figure using 'C' and wonder if this might be a variant of the mark on the blade discussed ? Whatever the case, it is a distinctly Spanish punzone character...but unusual for less known makers mark to be used spuriously in Germany, Perhaps this blade is indeed Spanish? but then what period, as Toledo was all but defunct by late 17th c.

Could this maker have removed to Barcelona or in Basque regions nearer Bilbao? possible.Notable mounting of blades (typically Toledo of course) was done in towns near Bilbao, which was the departure port for finished swords and the reason these types of swords with such guard systems became colloquially known as 'bilbos'.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2023, 05:24 PM   #8
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
Fernando in seeing the nomina in larger size, I see #64 which comprises the son of the figure using 'C' and wonder if this might be a variant of the mark on the blade discussed ?...
I guess i am skeptical over that probability, Jim. But i wouldn't discard the spurious possiblity !
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th November 2023, 07:57 PM   #9
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 678
Default

I think I’ve seen that lattice and plume pattern on Hungarian blades. The blade is for a sabre yet it’s attached to a Spanish bilbo hilt. Maybe the blade even has a false edge at the backside end of the tip?

Last edited by Victrix; 29th November 2023 at 07:59 PM. Reason: added bit at end
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2023, 05:19 PM   #10
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,738
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victrix View Post
I think I’ve seen that lattice and plume pattern on Hungarian blades. The blade is for a sabre yet it’s attached to a Spanish bilbo hilt. Maybe the blade even has a false edge at the backside end of the tip?
This is SPOT ON!
That style of blade decoration is indeed well known in Eastern Europe, and most notably on Hungarian blades, where I believe it may have to do with these kinds of occult esoterica known as 'the Transylvanian knot'. While exactly which device or motif this applies to, the entwined lattice type decoration may well pertain to a 'knot' in effect, perhaps referring to the esoteric decoration collectively.

Fernando, totally agree with the skeptical reference, and as always with spuriously applied devices and marks, pretty much anything is possible.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2023, 05:45 PM   #11
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victrix View Post
I think I’ve seen that lattice and plume pattern on Hungarian blades. The blade is for a sabre yet it’s attached to a Spanish bilbo hilt. Maybe the blade even has a false edge at the backside end of the tip?
Thank you for your input, Victrix.
I am waiting for the owners confirmation on the sabre false edge; but i think you are certainly right. Actually i have handled this sword the other day, but i missed to check that part.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2023, 05:49 PM   #12
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,641
Default

Thank you Jim, for the additional notes on the blade characteristics .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2023, 06:20 PM   #13
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando View Post
Thank you for your input, Victrix.
I am waiting for the owners confirmation on the sabre false edge; but i think you are certainly right...
Yes, the owner has just confirmed that the blade last section has both sides sharp.



.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by fernando; 30th November 2023 at 06:41 PM. Reason: Adding (poor) picture
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2023, 02:53 PM   #14
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 384
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
I believe it may have to do with these kinds of occult esoterica known as 'the Transylvanian knot'. While exactly which device or motif this applies to, the entwined lattice type decoration may well pertain to a 'knot' in effect, perhaps referring to the esoteric decoration collectively.
Back in university while researching something else I remember reading about knotwork being protection spells in western Europe. I am sorry that I have absolutely no recollection of the source.
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2023, 03:30 PM   #15
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Interested Party View Post
Back in university while researching something else I remember reading about knotwork being protection spells in western Europe. I am sorry that I have absolutely no recollection of the source.
A pity !
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2023, 01:31 PM   #16
werecow
Member
 
werecow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Leiden, NL
Posts: 432
Default

Is it me or does the grip resemble the ones found on later Espada de Ceņir, rather than either Bilbao / Boca de Caballo swords or Hungarian sabers?
Attached Images
 
werecow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2023, 01:54 PM   #17
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by werecow View Post
Is it me or does the grip resemble the ones found on later Espada de Ceņir, rather than either Bilbao / Boca de Caballo swords or Hungarian sabers?
I take it that, the grip alone is rather common in Spanish (even Iberian) swords in general, cup hilts and all, made in turned wood. The Hungarian approach, being or not plausible, refers only to the blade.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2023, 03:00 PM   #18
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,641
Default

Curiously, the description of the example shown of "Espada de Ceņir" mentions that its ebony grip should be adorned with golden (twine) wire, which is absent in this example

" puņo en madera de ébano gallonado y torzal dorado, ausente en este ejemplar".
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.