Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 29th July 2022, 12:15 PM   #1
wheellock95
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 35
Default Miniature toy petronel info

I just acquired what I believe to be a toy petronel, dating from the 17th century but that is about everything I know about it. Does anybody know what half the 17th century this could date from judging by the shape of the pommel ? Look forward to hearing any information.
Attached Images
  
wheellock95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2022, 12:55 PM   #2
Raf
Member
 
Raf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 165
Default

Congratulations on a very rare example. From the attached you can see that it once had a fully functional matchlock firing mechanism , now missing. Looking on the PAS database you will see plenty of other examples which usually have only the flash pan for manual ignition. The petronel form seems to have persisted probably into the eighteenth century but I am confident that your example is certainly early seventeenth century although you could argue the ball but makes it possibly late sixteenth century.
Attached Images
 
Raf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2022, 01:03 PM   #3
wheellock95
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 35
Default

Wow thatís incredible. All of the other examples I have seen have the same shaped pommel as the one you pictured but I havenít seen one with a round ball but before. late 16th century would be quite amazing
wheellock95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2022, 08:05 PM   #4
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 646
Default

hello
I think this is a toy and for that reason, it is missing the lid of the bowl (bread)
affectionately
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2022, 08:13 PM   #5
wheellock95
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 35
Default

Yes it is a toy as I stated in the title
wheellock95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2022, 12:50 AM   #6
wheellock95
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 35
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K View Post
hello
I think this is a toy and for that reason, it is missing the lid of the bowl (bread)
affectionately
Iím unsure what you mean by it is missing the lid of the bowl(bread)
wheellock95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2022, 01:20 PM   #7
Raf
Member
 
Raf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 165
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheellock95 View Post
I’m unsure what you mean by it is missing the lid of the bowl(bread)
I think Fernando K may mean a lid to the flashpan. To be clear the missing matchlock mechanism is exactly the same as the example I posted. The screw for the trigger return spring is present and the two holes for mounting the mechanism can be clearly seen . In principle its the same as any European matchlock but the form seems to be unique to these toy pistols. The second image shows the more frequently found example with a fishtail but and ring and dot decoration. Early seventeenth century in form but I suspect made over a much longer period .

if anyones wondering about the strange shape of the end of the barrel on the second example this is actually the end of the ramrod which is reversed and screwed into the barrel
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Raf; 1st August 2022 at 12:09 PM. Reason: additional information.
Raf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2022, 01:42 PM   #8
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,055
Default

In one of my drawers I found a toy miniature of a matchlock pistol unfortunately missing the cock. It is 77 mm long and made of bronce. The former owner once told me that this item has been found in the mud of the river Thames near London.
Attached Images
    
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2022, 02:13 PM   #9
Raf
Member
 
Raf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 165
Default

The ball but on this one looks completely wrong.
Raf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2022, 03:08 PM   #10
wheellock95
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 35
Default

Corrado did you get yours from the original finder as I see someone online is selling re casts of an original that are identical to your example ?
wheellock95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2022, 03:39 PM   #11
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,055
Default

I got it some years ago from a collector friend, but do not know where it came from, sorry.
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2022, 03:57 PM   #12
wheellock95
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 35
Default

Raf, would these more complex toy petronels have been quite a high end toy at the time ? As I canít imagine these being cheap when first produced ?
wheellock95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2022, 09:16 PM   #13
Raf
Member
 
Raf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 165
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheellock95 View Post
Raf, would these more complex toy petronels have been quite a high end toy at the time ? As I canít imagine these being cheap when first produced ?
A lot of the early ones are river finds from the Thames. Maybe a more affluent market. An image from Noel Hulme- All the Best Rubbish.
Sound advice
Attached Images
 
Raf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st August 2022, 08:23 PM   #14
wheellock95
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 35
Default

Yes Iíve heard that they have found some in the Thames. My example was found in a field near Newbury, Berkshire in England. I am also in the process of purchasing one found in Scotland so it seems they were produced all throughout the UK.
wheellock95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2022, 11:47 PM   #15
wheellock95
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 35
Default

Raf I believe there is less shot half way still stuck in the barrel, is there a way to try and get this out ?
wheellock95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st August 2022, 10:49 PM   #16
ausjulius
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: musorian territory
Posts: 385
Default

To remove the stuck ball.. If it is lead you can use a special tool to remove the stuck lead ball it is like a corkscrew on a cleaning rod.. But these are made only in large sizes.. I dont know the bore size.. If its lightly stuck in a small bore you can take an aircompressor nozzle make a tight seal on the touch hole and fire a shot of compressed air down the barrel.. It will work especially if you put some fine machine oil or wd40 down first. Put a little at both the touch hole and the muzzel and then send the air down.. You can also loosen it by putting some cleaning liquid down and boiling the gun in how water then oil.. Then compressed air.. Keep you eyes clear of the muzzel....
ausjulius is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.